Pictures Speak Louder Than Words (IRAQ)

Why is everyone still arguing? We are going to war.

End of story.

that whole area is seriously messed up...when you see their governments break out into fist fighting during parliament...makes me think real long and hard about what sort of control they have over any sort of weapon of mass destruction.

Your place sounds like a good start

Ok, then could we just admit that THE OIL (be it reserves, pipelines or whatver) provides the INCENTIVE for us to go after him for things like terrorisim, WOMD & the accepted fact that hes an evil pos (not that there aren't any evil POS's in high positions in the states too)...

Someone said how we're going to lose $x over the next 20 years for going to war with IRAQ -- I doubt they are factoring in the oil that we'll be getting ahold of.

Maybe we wont just TAKE IT, I think washington even stated we wouldn't ... but we sure the hell will be getting some super sweet deals on it from now until the end of time (because the government we setup there will basically be our puppets no?).

And of course, certain corporations will be making billions off it all.

So sure.. we're probably going after Iraq for a lot of good reasons, but it seems we have a more menacing problem over in North Korea right now.

That is, if the primary concern here is removing psychopathic evil leaders with WOMD from power and not what we stand to gain from the event

The situation brewing in North Korea scares me bigtime.

gee, thanks!

Cry? - Not hardly...

Blow his sorry ass to bits and pieces? Very Possible....

Oil Oil Oil....

The ONLY thing OIL has to do with this is that OIL is where Saddam got his power and wealth.


Geeesh - I'd thought even the most anti-Bush people had given up on the "it's all about oil" nonsense by now.....



(I wouldn't let Korea scare you too bad... we don't want their oil)

Yes, I did. And yes, they did. We aren't going to be getting "ahold" of any oil.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0821-02.htm

http://www.msnbc.com/news/795649.asp?cp1=1
http://commondreams.org/views02/0802-01.htm

they may not pocket the money directly, but they will be able to control the supply (i.e. control the price) of the 2nd biggest oil fields in the world.

Get with it dude.... even the extream nuts have pretty much give up on this being about oil...

As I said before - the ONLY thing oil has to do with this is that it is how Saddam got this power and wealth to begin with.

Argue with that.

"Dont be a big chicken .... Eat One"

Oil like real estate is a fixed asset. You can't pick it up and move it someplace else. So the key word here is control. France, Germany, and Russia are trying to protect their existing and future contracts with Iraq.

The good thing in business with a tyrant government like Iraq has is its very very easy to cut biz deals. You only have to deal with a one or two high level people. You make the side payoff deal and you're good to go. The last thing France, Germany and Russia want in Iraq is democracy and that's what's coming after the USA removes Saddam's regime from power. Sure it won't be a perfect democracy, but it will be 180 degrees from what's controlling Iraq at present.

You don't know America, if you think all we care about is controlling the Oil and making money off of a regime change in Iraq. Yeh that might be Bush's corp big money backers main concern obviously, but the guys going in there risking their lives are not doing it for oil. Those guys are there because they know what Freedom means and that sometimes you have to put yourself in harms way to achieve it for yourself and for others that have no freedom.

It really doesn't matter whether or not Saddam has some or a lot of his WMD's. If you look at their military procurement past you can see they have an interest in spending huge amounts of money for weapons that are offensive rather than defensive. We saw them go in and take Kuwait, and if the US had not jumped in immediately, they would have had Saudi Arabia easily too. So the bottom line the guy is a proven conquistador. He likes power and oppressing people to keep it. Whether its our business or not to do something about that is obviously debatable.

The premise of the United States role in the world is to bring freedom and liberty wherever we can. Capitalism thrives when men are free and sinks when they are not, as we see in so many totalitarian countries. And the USA is clearly the king of capitalism.
And yes, capitalism is a touchy issue also. But it seems to work better than any other system even with its flaws and the fact that the rich do get richer in a capitalistic society. However I would venture to say, and it could be documented I'm sure, that very few countries besides the USA make it possible for someone with zero to become someone prosperous and successful.

Ah, ok. Just for simplifications sake, don't ya suppose somebody like OPEC or someone would have something to say about this . . . I mean assuming the US could actually control supply/price of oil even if we invaded Iraq and installed an American government over there.

Of course, gross oversimplification of any issue is problematic. But I can hardly wait until the day when we are sending oil tankers over there every day, importing all the oil we need and telling the rest of the world to go fuck themselves. It's going to be especially fun to free the people and convert them to Christianity. And even better will be watching for a couple of months - I mean that is how long it'll take right? - while we improve Iraq's technology, infrastructure, r&d, etc. so we can dominate the world and all of it's oil.

Dude, I think I love you!

Be honest... you copied every word of that didn't you?

Where did it come from?

I am pretty sure that joke, a little changed now, was supposed to be about Canada and a poke at the USA, as we are teh ones stuck besides the americans..
Who is NZ neighbours with that is so bad?

USA provided chemical weapons that killed all those children

Bush = Saddam

There's really no good place to start with these because there are such idiots posting.

KRL, very well said.

GothWeb, couldn't agree with you more - good write.

DavePlays, because someone can type something that is coherant and backed with actual knowledge and fact, that means they most likely plagiarized it? Your other post here isn't even worth commenting on.

Slavdogg, I hope you're just trying to be amusing and/or up your post count, because if you realistically think that's feasible, you're a complete moron.

Donnie, I'm not sure how old you are or how educated you are with the history in the Middle East, but it's a tad bit more complicated than that.

To the comments about assinating Saddam, it is in fact against international law (the same as it is to shoot a parachuter while he's in the air). Despite this, the United States knows what needs to be done. I can guarantee with the first wave of attacks, all 35 of Saddam's palaces will be pulvarized in hopes of killing him. Yes, the press will say "We believed it was a key building in completing our mission of installing a democracy." but realistically, we were obviously going after the man himself. That's the easiest and most simple approach.

During his interview with Dan Rather, he said (paraphrased) "how could the people not like me, I've been elected to the head of this country for 30+ years". That's what happens when you murder anybody who votes against you. It's impossible to speak out against a dictator in that type of country.

For all you people that are into conspiracies and the whole thing "this is all about oil". Obviously oil plays a factor in this. It's given Saddam his wealth (for his military, not his people) and his ability to invade Kuwait in the early 90's. Gothweb said it perfectly when he talked about France, Germany, Russia, etc being able to strike deals with Iraq on oil because they're dealing with only a few people at the top of the Iraqi "government". With a Democracy installed, they would not be able to receive nearly as good of deals as they are receiving now.

If you think that the Americans are going to kick the French, Russian, and German (and whoever else) oil companies out of Iraq and start mining all of the fields themselves, you're a moron for believing that. With a Democracy installed, Iraq will be able to determine (logically, without a Dictator to decide everything) it's own arrangements with other nations as far as oil trades are concerned. And yes, I'm willing to bet the United States will be one of the nations that Iraq sets up oil deals with.

The only people in Iraq that like life, and acutally agree with Saddam are the people in the same class as Saddam in the Baath Socialist party. These people are very wealthy. Saddam's funds from oil sales goes directly to the military and these people (his friends, and family). Aside from this echelon of individuals, the country is in shambles, and everybody is miserable.

You conpiracy theorists seem to avoid the actual facts about what's going on and make generalizations about the issues at hand. Take a look at the facts, and please try to reform your view on things (yes, it is possible...you don't have to be a hardass and stick with your original thoughts - mine have changed many times when presented with new information).

You people that ignore the facts and continue to go along with the typical conspiracist bullshit are an embarrasment to the industry, and humanity in general.

W A C O, Texas April 19, 1993

That came out of my mind. Good lord what gives here with the attitude.

Agreed.

WACO was a seriously fucked up moment in our history. I have serious issues with that event from start to finish. It illustrates a government out of control and fanatical in its means to exercise its power and authority without limits and without respect for due process.

I could never honestly imagine they wanted to torch the place deliberately. But I do think someone acted without thinking and without going through a clear chain of command for authorization.

Your point? Now that you've got me started on that:

<i><blockquote>FBI Director Louis Freeh commented after the verdict, "A lot of speculation, misinformation and second-guessing'' had surrounded the Waco standoff. And Freeh added that "the significance of the jury's findings to the courageous federal law enforcement officers who have had to absorb unproven allegations and public criticisms for all these years cannot be overstated.'' Later, Federal Judge Walter J. Smith Jr. concurred with the jury, closed the case and refused to reopen it.

Simultaneously, during 1999 former United States Senator John Danforth (Republican-Missouri) conducted an independent investigation regarding Waco. After 10 months, which included interviews with about 900 witnesses, the examination of 2.3 million pages of documents and an expense of between $10 million to $11 million dollars Danforth concluded with "100 percent certainty" that the FBI did not start the fire or shoot at cult members during the fire. He further stated, "There are no doubts in my mind," and concluded, "The blame rests squarely on the shoulders of David Koresh." The Danforth Report published in November 2000 unequivocally reaffirmed the conclusions previously submitted July 21, 2000 in his Special Interim Report, which cited the following five points:


1. Government agents did not start the fire at Waco;

2. Government agents did not shoot at the Branch Davidians on April 19, 1993;

3. Government agents did not improperly use the United States military;

4. Government agents did not engage in a massive conspiracy and cover-up. There is no evidence of any wrongdoing on the part of Attorney General Reno, the present and former Director of the FBI, other high officials of the United States, or the individual members of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team who fired three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds on April 19, 1993.

5. Responsibility for the tragedy at Waco rests with certain of the Branch Davidians and their leader, David Koresh, who shot and killed four ATF agents, wounded twenty others, shot at FBI agents trying to insert tear gas into the complex, burned down the complex, and shot at least twenty of their own people, including five children. </i></blockquote>If you're another conspiracist, do yourself a favor and read over the facts again.

Additionally this website (http://www.culteducation.com/waco.html) states it very well: <blockquote><i>Despite these facts, which have been established repeatedly by the detailed examination and analysis of the evidence and reported through a succession of investigations, hearings and court actions, the Waco Davidian Standoff continues to be a favorite topic amongst anti-government conspiracy theorists. It seems this subculture of suspicion insists upon turning this cult tragedy into a thriving "cottage industry," which has included documentaries, books, videos (available through numerous Web sites) and even speaking tours. It is doubtful that such extremists will ever accept the facts about the Davidians and will instead perpetuate their own alternative version of reality for propaganda and profit. </i></blockquote>

My point was that this war has nothing to do with the gassing of the Kurds. Our government is not completely blameless either. All nations have skeletons in their closet. If we are going to war for those reasons then we are going to have a long hit list.

And, seeing as how you like "independent" reports, how about this one:
<b>
This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target.

And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent - that is, a cyanide-based gas - which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.</b> [Pelletiere, "A War Crime, or an Act of War?" The New York Times, January 31, 2003]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/op...on/31PELL.html

Three sides to every story.

I suppose you can prove the validity of this picture?

Gee this picture sure proves something alright....

Look the bottom line is they brought in the military (i.e. tanks) to do a law enforcement task. There is a lot of controversy over what and who ignited the fire. I just think it was mishandled in many ways by the LFA on scene when they knew there were kids in there and had they had more patience it could have ended without so many people dying.

I was in NYC, and they had a huge anti-war demonstration in Central Park... Ever heard the phrase -- "Not in our name." That came from NYC.

Don't vouch for a whole city.

When I saw the memorials in NY, I was more sad than angry. Sad that I live in a fucked up country that had CIA dealing drugs in Afghanistan before 9/11, Bin Laden's family with shared defense contractor investments with the Bush family, and even my friend telling me rumors that the WTC was structurally surveyed by the feds just previous to 9/11 etc. etc. No point in even me finding the news articles for you or researching it further -- this is just the way the world works... power sleeps together... and when people die for the sake of greed, power, or whatever... it's just sick, but that's reality. You want to post pictures of dead children -- what about all the children that died of starvation because of US sactions in the middle east. Nobody is completely innocent -- stop trying to point the finger at everyone but yourself.

Obviously every government screws up to a certain degree, it'd be impossible for a government to function flawlessly (so far democracy/capitalism has proven the least problem prone). Perhaps the Iranians did gas the Kurds in the situation. In others, Saddam definitely did gas the Kurds and Shiites. Basically, anybody who believes the US government has done no wrong is ignorant to events that've happened. To go from "the US has had mistakes in its past" to "Saddam has gased his own citizens, set file to Kuwait oil fields, uncapped other oil refineries to let the oil flow into the ocean to kill wildlife (no need to keep going)" is absurd. Hopefully you're just trying to point out that there's multiple sides to stories, and not that Saddam is a guiltless man. Not even so much guiltless (as nobody is), but shouldn't be perceived in such a negative decorum as what people do.

you seriously think this is the reason they haven't assassinated him?

please provide a link to reputable newspaper where he's quoted saying this.

It's equally as ridiculous to say France, Germany and Russia are against the war because or oil deals. They are against this because their populations are against it, it would be
political suicide for them to just go along with US.

The UN security council is a bit of a joke though. Say Russia went off and invaded Alaska, the UN couldn't take any action because Russia could veto everything voted on.

Yeah...and everyone will be thanking their lucky stars when we get rid of Sadam & Osama & all the weapons that are threating this country & MANY others.

I don't even think they know why they're against the war. I guess it's better us than Iraqi's to be slaughtered in their eyes...

And you're saying "George Bush's War Machine"? What about Sadam's?

That's exactly why they are against the war....cuz of their oil supply. Our main oil supply comes from Venezuala & Canada, where France, Russia get it from there. Germany's against it cuz of all the power plants that they just put up there.

Difference is military vs military, as opposed to military versus any family who happened to live in the city.

Half a dozen missles and a pound of anthrax? That's not a war machine.

socks, the basic point I was making is Japan turned the war into a bloodbath because they refused to surrendur. If we hadnt dropped the bomb, several more thousand troops would have died. They brought it on themself.

It would help if what you said resembled the facts eRock

Regarding France:
Russia has plenty of oil by itself.. I don't know about Germany.

I dunno, seems like a catch 22. To keep those people in iraq from dying we have to...bomb...those..people and......kill them? There seems to be no easier way, but no decision seems to yield productive results.

i think every budy having children will have the will to fucking kill this fucking sadam .. with a lot of poain in reserve ...

i know its not the solution .. but its a normal emotion .. and its he reason of all fucking war on this earth ...

some people are just stupid and don't have a clue. they hear what they want 2 hear ain't nothing you, me nor anyone else can say or do. I don't care if he dropped a Nuke on the USA, they would still think the same dumb shit. I now laugh at'em, and tell self, must be a young kid just out of High School, can't find Texas on a map much less Iraq. They could be told by William Jefferson Clinton , it's not about the oil they still would go on about there warped (and it is warped) thinking. They have heard it so much, They really can't help it.

3rd it here. got's some real WENNERS around this board.

Where were we in '88?
And why didn't you give a fuck then?

.

------------------------------------------
Hey Joe "Budweiser One To Many" Sixpack. Here's one for you dude.
------------------------------------------

Me thinks he's one short of a Sixpack, maybe two

Yeah im new.

Its sad that you all can misconstrue someones meaning like this.
The first post is nothing but sarcasim.

He wants the fuckers dead as much as we all do

First off, GO FUCK YOURSELF

Secondly, I don't think that a picture of gassed Iraqis with him saying <i>"Yeh we should give peace a chance with the scumball controlling Iraq who does shit like this to little kids in his own country."</i> is meant as sarcasm in any way at all. If I may speak for him, I think he's saying the guy is a piece of shit, and that people are being way too nice in defending him.

Thirdly, this is one of the few threads where everything relates back to the first post. Most stray completely off target and get taken completely out of context. This is one of the few good threads around this board...

Everytime I hear the name Saddam I want someone to blow his face up. I know that that sounds really harsh but I really dont care. That mother fucker needs to die. He has caused nothing but harm to the people of his country. His people might say that he is a good leader- but they say it out of fright. If they dont say that he is a good leader I can almost guarantee you that they will be shot.
Does anyone know what his son, does as a hobbie???? Yeah that other stupid mother fucker rapes and kills girls for fun. Can anyone out there tell me that we need people like him in this world????
These are the types of peple that need to be shot. No good can come from them.

Now as far as Osama goes...I want to see him dead. He has way too much power and he is not ok up there in his little head. He is out "to take over the world". He will never be able to.

Thanks for your time! -Pita

yes asmusing and sarcasting


and btw, who gives the fuck about their own post counts other than Lensman ? they mean shit.

I said this in another thread - it applies ther just like the other 10 or more thread that are all the same....


Let's get real here guys....

Each of you - go to a mirror - look in it and honestly say to yourself that those of us in the adult webmaster community REALLY know what the fuck we're taking about when it comes to all this and that we have any business talking as though we do.

It is our right to spout off at the mouth and express our opinion - but to take it any more seriously than that is swimming in a pool of over self importance.

At SOME point we all have to admit that we ONLY know what they want us to know - and we all get the same news - we all hear the same bull shit. We all have opinions that are not going to change.

We are the LAST group of people anyone would take seriously when it comes to politics and wars - now aren't we?

I don't know about you - but I'm not really that sure that I want all the adult webmasters running things IF our 2-cents did mean anything. It's sure obvious we'd never agree on anything and would probably end up throwing shit at each other...



go fuck yourself.

Actually yes, I do know what I'm talking about. I base my beliefs on facts presented through official press releases and / or quotes made by people.

It is our right to spout off at the mouth and express our opinion - but to take it any more seriously than that is swimming in a pool of over self importance.

Yes, you can spout off all you want (and you've done just that). I can take things very seriously, because they're very serious matters.

At SOME point we all have to admit that we ONLY know what they want us to know - and we all get the same news - we all hear the same bull shit. We all have opinions that are not going to change.

Wrong, most my statements made are from information released by the other side, and by facts from news sources (don't bother starting the whole gov't controls the media bullshit please). And opinions do change (mine have at least) based on new information presented. I can guarantee if Bush came out tomorrow and said "Oh BTW this is one big joke...haha, gotcha!" while he shook Saddam's hand in a restaurant in Baghdad, you'd probably change your opinion on things.

We are the LAST group of people anyone would take seriously when it comes to politics and wars - now aren't we?

I don't know about you - but I'm not really that sure that I want all the adult webmasters running things IF our 2-cents did mean anything. It's sure obvious we'd never agree on anything and would probably end up throwing shit at each other...

I'm pretty sure nobody here thinks that anything posted here is going to make any significant change in the way things are done on a world scale. However, presenting the truth and facts to people here who are ignorant (ahem) can hopefully educate some people. If everybody does there part and helps to educate one another, things will improve one way or another.

go fuck yourself.

Right back at ya!