U.S. pilots ask for forgiveness: CANADIANS, ARE YOU SATISFIED?

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  • MrPopup
    Confirmed User
    • Aug 2002
    • 3783

    #1

    U.S. pilots ask for forgiveness: CANADIANS, ARE YOU SATISFIED?

    ************
    Well its almost over....any minute now the military hearing to decide the fates of the two pilots who mistakenly bombed 4 Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan will be over.

    I am thankful that there at least has been an attempt to offer answers to the families and to the Canadian people for what happened. There are hundreds of other members of the military killed per year in strange circumstances and rarely do those incidents get the luxury of a high profile military trial.

    Anger, resentment, feelings of outrage....everything that I felt towards those pilots who snuffed out the lives of 4 Canadians who had the rest of their lives to live.

    I am satisfied with the apologies the pilots have offered and as a Canadian, I accept them. I hope the familes of the soldiers killed also accept them. I also understand the grief the pilots must be going through...as one of them said..."Since the seventeenth of April, not a day has passed that I have not thought of that night,"

    It was a horrible and tragic mistake that was beyond the responsibility of any one person. The responsibility for this tragedy was beyond individual control and lies with the forces that brought both the Canadians and Americans to that specific point in time.

    I find it amazing how quick these two pilots have become scape goats for the military.... and now that we've heard BOTH sides, rather than just the medias skewed vision, it is clear that those two American pilots may end up taking the fall....

    "If found guilty of all charges, each pilot could face 64 years in prison."....shouldnt that also apply to the officers in charge of the mission? How about the president who ordered those pilots to go to Afghanistan...should he also be charged? Just some food for thought....



    *******************

    U.S. pilots ask for forgiveness
    'If I could turn back time, I would,' Major William Umbach, right, said Thursday. His wingman, Major Harry Schmidt, also expressed remorse. Photos: AP

    'I appreciate your apologies, and they are accepted. They are very much appreciated and very much needed,' Marley Léger, widow of Sergeant Marc Léger, said after the hearing. Photo: Jessica Leigh/AP

    By MIRO CERNETIG
    From Friday's Globe and Mail


    Barksdale Air Force Base, La. ? Hands shaking as they tried to avoid courts-martial for the deaths of four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, two U.S. F-16 fighter pilots apologized publicly Thursday for the first time, asking for forgiveness but defending their decision to drop a 225-kilgoram bomb on troops they mistook for enemies trying to shoot them down.

    "Since the 17th of April, not a day has passed that I have not thought of that night, in the sky, in the darkness and all that has happened since," Major William Umbach, the 37-year-old commander of the ill-fated combat mission, said on the final day of the military hearing into the friendly fire deaths.

    "If I could turn back time, I would," he said, standing in his dress uniform, his shoulders held back. "But since I cannot, I want you to know that I am truly sorry."

    He added that he and his wingman, Major Harry Schmidt, "were doing our best to protect ourselves in a situation where we honestly believed we were under attack."

    The 47-year-old Major Schmidt, who released the laser-guided bomb that hit a unit of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, then strode to the witness stand to express his remorse.

    Occasionally stumbling over his words, he said in an often-tremulous voice that he did what he thought was right when he mistook the night-time muzzle flashes from the Canadians as anti-aircraft fire directed at Major Umbach's jet.

    "I was called upon to make a perfect decision in a rapidly unfolding combat environment," the veteran pilot, wearing his service decorations, said with his head bowed. "I had to make that decision with what I now know with the acuity of 20/20 hindsight, was imperfect information."

    Emerging red-eyed and with their arms around each other, most of the Canadian family members who had travelled to this Louisiana Air Force base to observe the hearing accepted the apologies.

    "I would just like to say thank you," said Marley Léger, wiping tears away, as the sun set behind her and the other families. Her husband, Marc, 29, was one of the four Canadians killed.

    "I appreciate your apologies, and they are accepted. They are very much appreciated and very much needed," she said to the pilots through reporters.

    But Claire Léger, Marc's mother, expressed disappointment with one of the pilots.

    "Major Umbach, I thought, was very sincere," Mrs. Léger said. "Major Schmidt, I have to say, I felt he was offering a defence of himself, first. I know his job's on the line, but those are our sons' lives on the line. I'm sorry."

    It was an unexpected finale to an extraordinary nine-day hearing; the event offered glimpses into the errors and fears that contributed to the tragedy that strained relations between the United States and Canada and embarrassed the U.S. Air Force.

    The defence lawyers entered evidence Thursday that U.S. fighter pilots in Afghanistan were terrified of being shot down and tortured, after a Special Forces soldier plunged from a crippled helicopter in a pitched battle and was killed by Taliban troops.

    "You have to keep in mind," F-16 pilot Lieutenent-Colonel Mark Coan says in written expert testimony, "that we all knew what happened to the Special Forces operator who was tortured and killed while the Predator [unmanned aircraft] videotaped the whole thing. What's going to be in your mind is that you're going to be tortured or killed."

    As U.S. military lawyers aggressively mounted their case to have both pilots face courts-martial for manslaughter, dereliction of duty and aggravated assault, senior commanders' testimony condemned their troops.

    The military's star witness was Brigadier-General Stephen Sargeant, who co-wrote the investigation report into the incident and recommended the pilots be charged.

    Rarely looking at the pilots, he spent two days of testimony repeatedly chastising both for breaking the rules of engagement, showing "reckless disregard" and flying into danger that they should and could have avoided.

    The only point the general conceded is that Major Schmidt had made so many errors that by the time he was over the Canadians, he might have believed ? incorrectly ? that he needed to act in self-defence.

    The two pilots, however, had the last word. A hush fell over the hearing room when Major Umbach read the names of the four Canadians killed and the eight wounded who were taking part in a nighttime target practice the pilots were never told about.

    "I hope and pray for your understanding and forgiveness," he said, "and that all of the factors that contributed to this tragedy will be made known and fixed so that neither pilots, nor their brave brothers in arms on the ground, are ever in this situation again."

    The pilots' defence team attempted to portray their clients as two heroes who were being turned into scapegoats to shield senior commanders from being blamed for command mistakes. They offered evidence that communication delays and poor maps had created "the fog of war," keeping the pilots from knowing the Canadians were below.

    Investigating officer Colonel Patrick Rosenow must consider all of the information to recommend whether the charges against the pilots should go to courts-martial, be waived or be handled administratively.

    Eighth Air Force commander Lieutenant-General Bruce Carlson will decide what to do with the recommendation, a decision that could take several months.

    If found guilty of all charges, each pilot could face 64 years in prison.
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  • I'm Slim
    Confirmed User
    • Jun 2002
    • 344

    #2
    Ill only be satisfied with a blowjob
    I'm your role model

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    • WendyB
      Confirmed User
      • Oct 2002
      • 538

      #3
      No
      An act of kindness is a wonderful gift

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      • NoCarrier
        We need more free porn
        • Mar 2002
        • 16356

        #4

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        • MrPopup
          Confirmed User
          • Aug 2002
          • 3783

          #5
          Originally posted by NoCarrier

          Get off GameSpy and get to work!

          What are you playing?
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          • NoCarrier
            We need more free porn
            • Mar 2002
            • 16356

            #6
            Originally posted by MrPopup
            Originally posted by NoCarrier

            Get off GameSpy and get to work!

            What are you playing?
            Hehehe Battlefield 1942

            Comment

            • MrPopup
              Confirmed User
              • Aug 2002
              • 3783

              #7
              Originally posted by NoCarrier


              Hehehe Battlefield 1942
              Multiple people have told me that game rocks....why?
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              • Brown Bear
                Confirmed User
                • May 2002
                • 4982

                #8
                Mr. Popup gets my vote as the most annoying Canadian on GFY.

                Canada is not better than the US.

                The US is not better than Canada.

                Both are excellent countries.

                Drop this whole America sucks and Canada is better campaign you're on and just start appreciating the fact that you don't live in Iran or some other shithole country.
                Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

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                • hershie
                  Confirmed User
                  • Jun 2002
                  • 4642

                  #9
                  i read somehere that when told upon exiting the plane that they killed "friendlies" that one of the pilots threw up. I think that speaks volumes.

                  Comment

                  • ChrisH
                    Confirmed User
                    • Aug 2001
                    • 1355

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Brown Bear
                    Mr. Popup gets my vote as the most annoying Canadian on GFY.

                    Canada is not better than the US.

                    The US is not better than Canada.

                    Both are excellent countries.

                    Drop this whole America sucks and Canada is better campaign you're on and just start appreciating the fact that you don't live in Iran or some other shithole country.
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                    • MrPopup
                      Confirmed User
                      • Aug 2002
                      • 3783

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Brown Bear
                      Mr. Popup gets my vote as the most annoying Canadian on GFY.
                      I could give a fuck...Its a "Forum".

                      fo·rum ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fôrm, fr-)
                      n. pl. fo·rums, also fo·ra (fôr, fr)

                      -The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
                      -A public meeting place for open discussion.
                      -A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program.

                      Wipe with sandpaper next time.
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                      • .:Frog:.
                        Confirmed User
                        • Jul 2002
                        • 2123

                        #12
                        I don't think they should face 64 years in jail. It should be a manslaughter charge, and they should go to jail at most 3-5 years. They are being treated like murderers and I don't think thats the case.
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                        • ChrisH
                          Confirmed User
                          • Aug 2001
                          • 1355

                          #13
                          These pilots are being scapegoated by the US to gain "some" Canadian support. I think it's a fucking shame!

                          While my heat goes out to the families and friends of these men, it wan't something that anyone wanted to happen.
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                          • PornoDoggy
                            Confirmed User
                            • Jun 2002
                            • 1053

                            #14
                            What? The U.S. military scapegoating people? You're kidding me, right? I'm truly surprised they haven't found some enlisted guy to blame over this - that's what they usually do.

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                            • JFK
                              FUBAR the ORIGINATOR
                              • Jan 2002
                              • 67369

                              #15
                              I think they should not be made scapegoats! As much as I feel sorry for the families involved, they can not be bought back from the dead. War is hell, mistakes happen, and the two pilots should not be hung out to dry because of it!

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                              • ab1183
                                Registered User
                                • Jan 2003
                                • 90

                                #16
                                Originally posted by MrPopup
                                ************

                                "If found guilty of all charges, each pilot could face 64 years in prison."....shouldnt that also apply to the officers in charge of the mission? How about the president who ordered those pilots to go to Afghanistan...should he also be charged? Just some food for thought....



                                What the hell are you talking about? Hell no the president and the officers in charge shouldn?t be charged. That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. What about when a drunk driver gets in an accident and kills someone? Should the car maker be charged? What about the guy at the liquor store that sold him the alcohol? And his parents for having him?
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                                • Rich
                                  So Fucking Banned
                                  • Jan 2003
                                  • 11486

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by ab1183


                                  What the hell are you talking about? Hell no the president and the officers in charge shouldn?t be charged. That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. What about when a drunk driver gets in an accident and kills someone? Should the car maker be charged? What about the guy at the liquor store that sold him the alcohol? And his parents for having him?
                                  I agree that was a totally insane comment.

                                  Comment

                                  • Ian
                                    Confirmed User
                                    • Oct 2002
                                    • 1259

                                    #18
                                    1. I am Canadian.

                                    2. Canadians are not strangers to war and our military history speaks for itself.

                                    3. We understand that shit happens.

                                    4. In our military, just like the US military, there are always post action reports. If anything is amiss in these reports/debriefings and the officers in charge decide an investigation is warranted, then this is what happens.

                                    5. In this situation the US Air Force is conducting it's own investigation and hearings with regards to it's own pilots and their conduct as officers of the US military.

                                    6. The fact that these pilots dropped bombs on Canadian troops has nothing to do with it. If the bombs had been dropped on US soldiers the investigation and possible courts martial would be exactly the same.

                                    I feel for the families of the people involved including the pilots and hope that lessons and communications procedures are learned and improved upon.

                                    All who enter the military of whatever country know the risks involved and enter knowing that they may go into harm's way. This is the nature of the job.

                                    To all of the people on this board who continually try to pit one race or one country or one religion against one another...
                                    ...you are continually showing your age, your inexperience and your profound ignorance.

                                    To all of those people, the rest of us can only feel pity and hope that you may one day find intelligence, gain experience and grow up without being shot to death in a 7-11 while waiting for your bottle of Wild Turkey.

                                    Comment

                                    • MrPopup
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Aug 2002
                                      • 3783

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Ian
                                      1. I am Canadian.

                                      2. Canadians are not strangers to war and our military history speaks for itself.

                                      3. We understand that shit happens.

                                      4. In our military, just like the US military, there are always post action reports. If anything is amiss in these reports/debriefings and the officers in charge decide an investigation is warranted, then this is what happens.

                                      5. In this situation the US Air Force is conducting it's own investigation and hearings with regards to it's own pilots and their conduct as officers of the US military.

                                      6. The fact that these pilots dropped bombs on Canadian troops has nothing to do with it. If the bombs had been dropped on US soldiers the investigation and possible courts martial would be exactly the same.

                                      I feel for the families of the people involved including the pilots and hope that lessons and communications procedures are learned and improved upon.

                                      All who enter the military of whatever country know the risks involved and enter knowing that they may go into harm's way. This is the nature of the job.

                                      To all of the people on this board who continually try to pit one race or one country or one religion against one another...
                                      ...you are continually showing your age, your inexperience and your profound ignorance.

                                      To all of those people, the rest of us can only feel pity and hope that you may one day find intelligence, gain experience and grow up without being shot to death in a 7-11 while waiting for your bottle of Wild Turkey.

                                      Well said.
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                                      • PaulSweet
                                        Confirmed User
                                        • May 2002
                                        • 1094

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Brown Bear
                                        Mr. Popup gets my vote as the most annoying Canadian on GFY.
                                        I agree 100%

                                        PG4L!
                                        Home to the MAX HARDCORE video Plugin!

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                                        • Ramster
                                          Confirmed User
                                          • Jul 2002
                                          • 1447

                                          #21
                                          I'm Canadian!

                                          Shit happens and it was very unfortunate but it was a war time situation. Pilots thinking shoot or be shot. (Maybe not trained well enough, maybe just damn scared like a normal person) If it was determined they really thought they were being fired upon, then they should be let go!

                                          And safeguard against things like this happening again!

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                                          • quiet
                                            we'll miss you our friend. RIP
                                            • Sep 2001
                                            • 25115

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Brown Bear
                                            Mr. Popup gets my vote as the most annoying Canadian on GFY.

                                            Canada is not better than the US.

                                            The US is not better than Canada.

                                            Both are excellent countries.

                                            Drop this whole America sucks and Canada is better campaign you're on and just start appreciating the fact that you don't live in Iran or some other shithole country.
                                            amen.
                                            we'll miss you our friend. RIP

                                            Comment

                                            • Ian
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • Oct 2002
                                              • 1259

                                              #23
                                              "Canada is not better than the US.

                                              The US is not better than Canada.

                                              Both are excellent countries."


                                              Not to mention that we have the longest undefended border in the world and have been good friends who supported each other for the last 190 years.

                                              That's a mouthfull and definitely food for some positive thought.

                                              Comment

                                              • ChrisH
                                                Confirmed User
                                                • Aug 2001
                                                • 1355

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by MrPopup


                                                Well said.
                                                Glad you agree.

                                                However the latter part of his post was referring to the likes of you!

                                                btw... I agree with him as well.
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                                                • Ian
                                                  Confirmed User
                                                  • Oct 2002
                                                  • 1259

                                                  #25
                                                  Dear Chris H:

                                                  I would appreciate it greatly if you refrained from putting words in my mouth while making some point of your own.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • SleazyDream
                                                    I'm here for SPORT
                                                    • Jul 2001
                                                    • 41470

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by JFK
                                                    I think they should not be made scapegoats! As much as I feel sorry for the families involved, they can not be bought back from the dead. War is hell, mistakes happen, and the two pilots should not be hung out to dry because of it!
                                                    i agree. As a Canadian I can say that I think most people know that when you go to war there is always the possibility that you could die from friendly fire. Fewer and fewer people die from it as technology gets better, but it still happens.
                                                    This dog, is dog, a dog, good dog, way dog, to dog, keep dog, an dog, idiot dog, busy dog, for dog, 20 dog, seconds dog!

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                                                    • Socks
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • May 2002
                                                      • 8475

                                                      #27
                                                      Satisfied? Like I feel after a cold beer? Yeah it's almost the same feeling. Almost.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • .:Frog:.
                                                        Confirmed User
                                                        • Jul 2002
                                                        • 2123

                                                        #28
                                                        scapegoats for what?
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                                                        • Captain Canada
                                                          Confirmed User
                                                          • Jun 2002
                                                          • 469

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by SleazyDream


                                                          i agree. As a Canadian I can say that I think most people know that when you go to war there is always the possibility that you could die from friendly fire. Fewer and fewer people die from it as technology gets better, but it still happens.
                                                          Actually that's not true - as technology increases it just makes it easier to kill - friends or enemies. Every war the US has been involved in since WW1 the incidents of friendly fire injuries or deaths has increased.

                                                          You can check The Friendly Fire Project for some really scary statistics. They dont have enough information for the invasion in Grenada but there is a report floating around saying that every US soldier injured or killed was done so by friendly fire - I dont know how accurate it is as it is taking forever to find out the real information, the US as well as almost every country doesn't like to let out these statistics.

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