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NetBabe

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#1

Holy Chargebacks Batman!!!

01-23-2003, 01:43 PM

I ran across this sign up page ...

and about 5 minutes later it was this ...

AND I AM NOT FLAMING THE SPONSOR OR THE PROCESSOR, OKAY!!!! I want to ask ....

Is this the way to go now a days ... is aggressive processing the way, are we trying to squeeze every dime we can? This is the third time I have seen this type of Signup.

Doesn't this type of marketing and processing bring more negative light on our industry from VISA???? I really would like to know ... because I border everyday on aggressive vs. passive marketing and processing efforts.

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#2

01-23-2003, 01:45 PM

?

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marcu5

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#3

01-23-2003, 01:45 PM

red x?
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#4

01-23-2003, 01:46 PM

hotlinking geocities.. cool.

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Rich

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#5

01-23-2003, 01:46 PM

The images are broken. Maybe you have hotlink protection on or something.
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mailman

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#6

01-23-2003, 01:46 PM

?
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Tala

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#7

01-23-2003, 01:47 PM

Nifty red xs you have there.

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#8

01-23-2003, 01:48 PM

Someone hotlinking geocities is complaining about our industry getting a bad name from something.

Weeeeeeee....

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Rich

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#9

01-23-2003, 01:48 PM

Nope, you're trying to host those pics on geocities and they have hotlink protection.
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Tala

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#10

01-23-2003, 01:48 PM

Ah. You're hotlinking geoshitties, that's why the red Xs. They don't allow hotlinking.

Try uploading on some other site and go from there, or better yet, try from your own site.

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#11

01-23-2003, 01:49 PM

Holy bat shit bat man

<img src="http://brokenimage.com/nothing.jpg">

7
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NetBabe

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#12

01-23-2003, 01:52 PM

Let's try copy and paste

http://www.geocities.com/myneid/untitled.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/myneid/image002.jpg

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#13

01-23-2003, 01:54 PM

Hey Everyone,

SmoothCriminal is back!!!

Yeah!

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#14

01-23-2003, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by DrGuile
Hey Everyone,

SmoothCriminal is back!!!

Yeah!

Sorry I did not mean to post it twice and when I saw it would not let me delete it ....

Copy and Pasting it into the browser works.

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Tala

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#15

01-23-2003, 01:57 PM

Neither of those worked.

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#16

01-23-2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by FATPad
Someone hotlinking geocities is complaining about our industry getting a bad name from something.

Weeeeeeee....

Shut the fuck up, why can't people ask questions without you being an ass and pissing all over the place?

I asked a question is all ...

I was not complaining maybe you should read it over ....

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DrGuile

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#17

01-23-2003, 02:00 PM

he's complaining about he 120$ >FREE< trials...

I never send my customers to sites like that.

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#18

01-23-2003, 02:01 PM

Wow, a $70 monthly fee? They better have spectacular content for that rate. While having two cross-sales is probably typical, the amounts on the cross-sales are very high. At least they're opt-in rather than opt-out so that should keep chargebacks a little lower but $70, what the hell is in that paysite for that!

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NetBabe

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#19

01-23-2003, 02:03 PM

Dr. Guile,

I ask this because it is becoming more common in recent weeks, I know drops had posted a similar thread about paying $60 per sign up on a similar model.

It just seems as VISA comes down some are being more passive while others are more aggressive.

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Rich

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#20

01-23-2003, 02:06 PM

Now that I see what you're talking about, I have to say, sites like that are bullshit. I'd never send a surfer to a site like that, no matter how high the payout was.
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#21

01-23-2003, 03:02 PM

this signup page is insane
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#22

01-23-2003, 03:16 PM

sponsors like stiffycash is one of the reasons VISA will fuck our industry for good next time.
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#23

01-23-2003, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
sponsors like stiffycash is one of the reasons VISA will fuck our industry for good next time.

What do they do which is so bad?
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#24

01-23-2003, 04:09 PM

they charge the primary membership which im sure is nothing less than $35 after the trial, a second membership to another site for $40 and a 3rd membership to one more paysite that comes from nowhere for $69.95! The surfer will end up with $145-150 charge. Honestly first time I see such billing. An average webmaster doesnt make $150 in day and only a crazy surfer is willing to pay this amount. I haven't seen the members areas of these sites,but I can imagine them........

Some people got the message faster than some of us. The message says: "Fuck em all". Today industry is up, tommorow might be down. Grab as many as you can NOW before it's too late.

Last edited by Theo; 01-23-2003, 04:11 PM.
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#25

01-23-2003, 05:40 PM

Everyone has to abide by the chargeback rates, if they can stay within the limits and it is clear in the terms, let it be. If they can't stay within the VISA limits, they will be on a Visa blacklist. Easy at that.
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#26

01-23-2003, 07:27 PM

Charge Backs are sure to be huge for this type of model.

How long can a program last with this type of model.

Epoch is not stupid they are keeping a close eye on accounts of theirs that has such aggresive models to watch their charge back levels.

Weird how the cross sells changed after you posted this thread.

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#27

01-23-2003, 07:38 PM

I am sick of these rip off business models

what surfer is ever going to join a pay site again once they have been burned like this.

how many surfers a day are being burned and therefore never signing up for another porn site again?

are sponsor programs getting that desperate?
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#28

01-23-2003, 07:44 PM

Can you say sexhitsupercharge?

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#29

01-23-2003, 08:24 PM

It is sad that some processors allow this and even promote that they offer these cross-sell features at such high prices. It surely does not help build any credibility for our industry in the eyes of the card associations. Our system allows 1 cross sell but have a large disclaimer and terms for the merchants that use it, and use it with discretion. The ones that do not will not be around for the long terms.
Just my 2¢

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#30

01-23-2003, 10:20 PM

I would be interested to know if at the moment VISA has a separate record of CBs for each sponsor/paysite owner or if the processors report their overall CB ratio. I can't see this billing method staying below 2.5%

Another thing,the biggest charge goes for a site called "Privacy Champion"

2hour free preview membership and then charged at $69.95 + $5.95 for every month after the initial charge. Now if you goto http://privacychampion.com which I assume is the site they get charged, you don't see a paysite, but a privacy software! What's more, after the 120min auto-purchase there's a monthly fee of $5.95 for something you have already pay for.
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#31

01-24-2003, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by netbilling
It is sad that some processors allow this and even promote that they offer these cross-sell features at such high prices. It surely does not help build any credibility for our industry in the eyes of the card associations. Our system allows 1 cross sell but have a large disclaimer and terms for the merchants that use it, and use it with discretion. The ones that do not will not be around for the long terms.
Just my 2¢

Mitch

Big surprise! Mitch Farber taking an opportunity to market himself? I?m shocked.

HEADLINE: ?7.8 EARTHQUAKE IN MEXICO KILLS 30?? Mitch Farber Post: This is terrible, but it all could have been avoided if the Mexican?s had just had their own merchant account like those of my other customers here at Netbilling??. Sorry Mitch, but I am sick of this shit. You need to let your banners do the work, not take EVERY opportunity to Spam. But these are just my thoughts, I could be wrong?.

Anyway, the deal on StiffyCash is simple: Read what is being sold! This is software, not porn, not content.

EPOCH is within card association guidelines and we understand how to manage our risk and that of our Sponsored Merchants. We do compliance on every site, every join, and every product.

So no Mitch, we are not trying to give the industry a bad name or bring down heat. We are running our business just fine, thanks. As for credibility, we have as much as can be had with Visa and MC. We are CISP compliant, Verified by Visa, no FTC problems, no chargeback issues, acquiring through some of the biggest banks on Earth? and we don?t have any volume restrictions. So I think we are doing fine.

If anyone has any constructive criticism after actually checking out what is being sold before flaming, bring it on. We are listening.

You may now return to you normal activities.

Thanks,

C

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Chris Mallick

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#32

01-24-2003, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
I would be interested to know if at the moment VISA has a separate record of CBs for each sponsor/paysite owner or if the processors report their overall CB ratio. I can't see this billing method staying below 2.5%

Another thing,the biggest charge goes for a site called "Privacy Champion"

2hour free preview membership and then charged at $69.95 + $5.95 for every month after the initial charge. Now if you goto http://privacychampion.com which I assume is the site they get charged, you don't see a paysite, but a privacy software! What's more, after the 120min auto-purchase there's a monthly fee of $5.95 for something you have already pay for.

Lot?s of companies sell software over the Internet now. Microsoft and Dell just to mention a few.

The monthly fee is a maintenance fee.

The cost of this product versus similar products that I have actually purchased, online, is about 50% lower. You should all buy it!

The chargebacks for this site are in line with card association guidelines. Please don?t worry.

EPOCH is not going to do anything for anyone to jeopardize our merchant accounts. We are comfortable with this model.

Thanks,

C

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#33

01-24-2003, 06:42 AM

Are you saying that bullshit like this had *nothing* to do with causing the currently overzealous Visa policies?

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Chris Mallick

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#34

01-24-2003, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by gothweb
Are you saying that bullshit like this had *nothing* to do with causing the currently overzealous Visa policies?

Yes, that is what I am saying. Although I should also state that the new regs, while expensive, time consuming and labor intensive are basically for the long term good of this industry.

FTC problems bring the most heat on our industry. Diclosure, as in email confirmations, etc stop those problems.

C

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stocktrader23

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#35

01-24-2003, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by Chris Mallick

Big surprise! Mitch Farber taking an opportunity to market himself? I?m shocked.

HEADLINE: ?7.8 EARTHQUAKE IN MEXICO KILLS 30?? Mitch Farber Post: This is terrible, but it all could have been avoided if the Mexican?s had just had their own merchant account like those of my other customers here at Netbilling??. Sorry Mitch, but I am sick of this shit. You need to let your banners do the work, not take EVERY opportunity to Spam. But these are just my thoughts, I could be wrong?.

Anyway, the deal on StiffyCash is simple: Read what is being sold! This is software, not porn, not content.

EPOCH is within card association guidelines and we understand how to manage our risk and that of our Sponsored Merchants. We do compliance on every site, every join, and every product.

So no Mitch, we are not trying to give the industry a bad name or bring down heat. We are running our business just fine, thanks. As for credibility, we have as much as can be had with Visa and MC. We are CISP compliant, Verified by Visa, no FTC problems, no chargeback issues, acquiring through some of the biggest banks on Earth? and we don?t have any volume restrictions. So I think we are doing fine.

If anyone has any constructive criticism after actually checking out what is being sold before flaming, bring it on. We are listening.

You may now return to you normal activities.

Thanks,

C

I love this attitude. Somebody makes a valid point and it gets thrown in their face for something they have said previously on a whole other topic. You may not be trying to give the industry a bad name but you are doing so. You can't tell me customers that got hit with some of this complete bullshit don't call and complain. Yea, maybe you take care of them before a chargeback but it still pisses them off. Go for it. Tell everyone that it is ethical to bill $100 plus a month when a horny surfer reads $2.95 trial on a website while he is delusional from his euphoria. Tell it to whoever you want but don't think anybody with half a brain can't form their own fucking opinion on it.

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#36

01-24-2003, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by stocktrader23

I love this attitude. Somebody makes a valid point and it gets thrown in their face for something they have said previously on a whole other topic. You may not be trying to give the industry a bad name but you are doing so. You can't tell me customers that got hit with some of this complete bullshit don't call and complain. Yea, maybe you take care of them before a chargeback but it still pisses them off. Go for it. Tell everyone that it is ethical to bill $100 plus a month when a horny surfer reads $2.95 trial on a website while he is delusional from his euphoria. Tell it to whoever you want but don't think anybody with half a brain can't form their own fucking opinion on it.

Good point. In fact, I would bet that every single site that EPOCH or any other processor has ever billed for has had someone complain about something. That is just a fact. I stand corrected if you took my comments to mean that there was never a complaint about this product offer. There have been and will continue to be, but they are not out of line in terms of numbers, with any other site..

As for your opinions, they are yours. I can?t change your mind and I won?t try. Just understand that EPOCH takes our role very seriously and we manage our risk very seriously as well. If you don?t like a particular model, I understand and respect that. Just respect the fact that we have NEVER been accused of any violation of any FTC rule, NEVER been accused of deceptive billing practices and certainly NEVER allowed a competitors ?opinion? to be left unanswered, especially Mitch Farber?s.

So while I respect you opinion, Mitch?s opinion and that of everyone, I am entitled to give my reply and to defend EPOCH against attacks for obvious reasons. I hope this clears things up.
C

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#37

01-24-2003, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by Chris Mallick

Yes, that is what I am saying. Although I should also state that the new regs, while expensive, time consuming and labor intensive are basically for the long term good of this industry.

FTC problems bring the most heat on our industry. Diclosure, as in email confirmations, etc stop those problems.

C

That's funny. I could have sworn that the reason for the new Visa regs was that chargebacks are unreasonably high in the adult industry. Do you not think that ridiculous "trials", cross-bills, etc. like the example given are the reason for that?

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Chris Mallick

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#38

01-24-2003, 08:02 AM

Originally posted by gothweb

That's funny. I could have sworn that the reason for the new Visa regs was that chargebacks are unreasonably high in the adult industry. Do you not think that ridiculous "trials", cross-bills, etc. like the example given are the reason for that?

No. Chargebacks are fine in the adult space with those that are registered IPSP's. The issue was to make all "aggregators" register and become compliant with security protocols.

C

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#39

01-24-2003, 08:03 AM

First of all to clear that this is not an personal attack against epoch in case someone miss it. I consider epoch as the primary solution for any serious paysite and I recommend epoch when someone asks me which processor to use.

I don't have anything against crossbilling, but it should have some limits and the offered products follow a reasonable price. Stiffycash is beyond any limit.

It's the last step of the business model: get as much as possible from the surfer, no matter what. It's the model of numbers and nothing else. Privacychampion.com registered 2 months ago, with a site made in an hour that is lacking any opportunity to sell the "valuable" product. Why is that? Because it was made only for crossbilling charges. A programming cost below $1000 according to past elance.com offers.

Of course all these do not have any negative effects for anyone. Everybody is satisfied and happy. Oh well, good for the owner of stiffycash, he'll have the opportunity to give more hats to his porncity members with the extra money he is making.

Last edited by Theo; 01-24-2003, 08:22 AM.
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#40

01-24-2003, 08:40 AM

Dear NetBabe,

Considering the fragile state of marketing perceptions of our industry, I will continue to deploy non-aggressive methods.
We have all seen those, just plain bad practices spread like wildfire. I prefer to put our energy in campaigns and/or practices which embrace, rather than attack those who may choose to join.

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#41

01-24-2003, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by Chris Mallick

Good point. In fact, I would bet that every single site that EPOCH or any other processor has ever billed for has had someone complain about something. That is just a fact. I stand corrected if you took my comments to mean that there was never a complaint about this product offer. There have been and will continue to be, but they are not out of line in terms of numbers, with any other site..

As for your opinions, they are yours. I can?t change your mind and I won?t try. Just understand that EPOCH takes our role very seriously and we manage our risk very seriously as well. If you don?t like a particular model, I understand and respect that. Just respect the fact that we have NEVER been accused of any violation of any FTC rule, NEVER been accused of deceptive billing practices and certainly NEVER allowed a competitors ?opinion? to be left unanswered, especially Mitch Farber?s.

So while I respect you opinion, Mitch?s opinion and that of everyone, I am entitled to give my reply and to defend EPOCH against attacks for obvious reasons. I hope this clears things up.
C

Gotcha.

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#42

01-24-2003, 01:34 PM

Cross sells are apart of everyones business model

These cross sells are no different then many other companies.

The surfer has a choice no one is putting a gun to their head to accept the cross sell.

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#43

01-25-2003, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by Chris Mallick

Big surprise! Mitch Farber taking an opportunity to market himself? I?m shocked.

HEADLINE: ?7.8 EARTHQUAKE IN MEXICO KILLS 30?? Mitch Farber Post: This is terrible, but it all could have been avoided if the Mexican?s had just had their own merchant account like those of my other customers here at Netbilling??. Sorry Mitch, but I am sick of this shit. You need to let your banners do the work, not take EVERY opportunity to Spam. But these are just my thoughts, I could be wrong?.

Anyway, the deal on StiffyCash is simple: Read what is being sold! This is software, not porn, not content.

EPOCH is within card association guidelines and we understand how to manage our risk and that of our Sponsored Merchants. We do compliance on every site, every join, and every product.

So no Mitch, we are not trying to give the industry a bad name or bring down heat. We are running our business just fine, thanks. As for credibility, we have as much as can be had with Visa and MC. We are CISP compliant, Verified by Visa, no FTC problems, no chargeback issues, acquiring through some of the biggest banks on Earth? and we don?t have any volume restrictions. So I think we are doing fine.

If anyone has any constructive criticism after actually checking out what is being sold before flaming, bring it on. We are listening.

You may now return to you normal activities.

Thanks,

C

Chris,

First of all, I never mentioned you or Epoch's name in my post.

Second, I was not marketing here, just stating my opinion on the situation and was not referring to you company specifically either.

Third, you have no right commenting about my marketing or "spam" as you call it.

Every post you have ever made plugs Epoch. I respect Clay, Rand and the other Epoch staff that BUILT Epoch and the others I have spoken to and dealt with over the years. You however, always have a harsh, defensive tone in your posts and I can tell you that it really does not make you look very professional. Do yourself a favor and leave my name out of your posts unless you have something nice to say.

Mitch

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#44

01-25-2003, 01:15 AM

popcorn people.
get it out..

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#45

01-25-2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by netbilling

Chris,

First of all, I never mentioned you or Epoch's name in my post.

Second, I was not marketing here, just stating my opinion on the situation and was not referring to you company specifically either.

Third, you have no right commenting about my marketing or "spam" as you call it.

Every post you have ever made plugs Epoch. I respect Clay, Rand and the other Epoch staff that BUILT Epoch and the others I have spoken to and dealt with over the years. You however, always have a harsh, defensive tone in your posts and I can tell you that it really does not make you look very professional. Do yourself a favor and leave my name out of your posts unless you have something nice to say.

Mitch

As I started to respond to each of your points I realized that it only drags me down to your level. You know very well what you do on almost EVERY post. But I digress.

As for your statement ??do yourself a favor...? by leaving your name out? Go Fuck Yourself. And yes, Mitch, that was a harsh tone because I am harsh. When I want your advice I will kill myself. Thanks.

Your turn. Or do you want to let it die?

C

Chris Mallick
[email protected]
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