Do Labret's Cattle really exist? The moo's are in his head

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  • ADL Colin
    Too lazy to set a custom title
    • Feb 2001
    • 11929

    #1

    Do Labret's Cattle really exist? The moo's are in his head

    Labret is fond of saying that people that like things that are popular can be likened to cattle. Those that like music that appears on MTV are cattle. Those that are Zionists are cattle. Those that think the US government is an effective and good government are cattle.

    It seems to me that people can be (only very roughly) broken down into these 4 categories as far as any belief/thought/taste.

    A. People that think "IT" for rather independent reasons.
    B. People that think "IT" largely because other people do.
    C. People that don't think "IT" for rather independent reasons.
    D. People that don't think "IT" largely because people have influenced them to not think it.

    OK, that's an oversimplification but to make a point and further categories wont diminish the argument.

    I don't see how Labret (or anyone) can accurately call someone cattle or sheep for any belief based on their belief only. It requires knowledge (probably not attainable) as to how that person actually came to that conclusion. Anyone that believes (or likes) something may very well be in category A OR B. They may very well have a popular belief based on at least as much reason as Labret claims to use.

    Furthermore, it seems that the categories of A and D are similar. Liking a particular popular music style for example is no different than liking it because it is unpopular or being more likely to like it because it is unpopular. Someone that rejects something simply because it is popular
    is just a different breed of cattle.

    Without questioning each person as to their reasons - and even then it is complicated - one cannot make the generalization Labret makes with any accuracy.

    Labret's cattle are myth. The moo's are in his head.


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  • Jakke PNG
    ex-TeenGodFather
    • Nov 2001
    • 20306

    #2
    Moo.
    ..and I'm off.

    Comment

    • quiet
      we'll miss you our friend. RIP
      • Sep 2001
      • 25115

      #3
      simply put: do you think people reason things out and make their own decisions, or do you think they follow (and agree with) what they see in mainstream media?

      in general?
      we'll miss you our friend. RIP

      Comment

      • ADL Colin
        Too lazy to set a custom title
        • Feb 2001
        • 11929

        #4
        Quiet,

        I think there IS no simple answer. Even the people that claim to be the greatest individualists are very indebted to group social mechanisms.

        Let's take a look at a self-proclaimed individualist like Labret for example. Why does he have tattoos? Why does he listen to the music he does? He didn't create the music he listens to. He didn't invent the idea of tattoos. In fact, tattoos are very popular in certain social groups. They are not anti-anything - they are examples of group comformity for most people - comformity to a particular group. Now maybe Labret has some very unusual reason for why he has tattoos and it is not comformity - I can't tell by just knowing he has tattoos.

        I think people make their own decisions within and influenced by society. In America, we talk about the popularity of mainstream music like top 40 and often forget how many people listen to country music. There are country music stations all over the dial in many parts of America. That didn't require MTV play. There are still massive social influences but they aren't always "mainstream".


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        • ADL Colin
          Too lazy to set a custom title
          • Feb 2001
          • 11929

          #5
          Hi TGF.

          Quiet,

          What do you think?


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          • Pleasurepays
            BANNED - SUPPORTING TUBES
            • Aug 2002
            • 11913

            #6
            i think [Labret] is a little to high on his own false sense of uniqueness in his post pubescent awakening to the world, to realize that rugged individuals are ALL the same.

            Comment

            • Jakke PNG
              ex-TeenGodFather
              • Nov 2001
              • 20306

              #7
              Originally posted by Colin
              Hi TGF
              Hi.
              ..and I'm off.

              Comment

              • theking
                Nice Kitty
                • Sep 2002
                • 21053

                #8
                Sheeple are alive and well. Having said that, there are different groups of sheeple and different numbers of sheeple within the different groups of sheeple. Independent thinkers, in its purest concept, are probably non-existent.
                When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!

                FOR THE LYING LOWLIFE POSTING AS PATHFINDER...http://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-pr...athfinder.html

                Comment

                • Gutterboy
                  So Fucking Banned
                  • Jul 2002
                  • 4751

                  #9
                  The problem is that human beings are inherently illogical.

                  Why do we have logic, philosophy and mathematics classes? Because we have to be taught how to think about things properly. It does not come naturally to us. Most of the American public has not had the benefit of such education and are therefore prone to holding various irrational belief systems.

                  Exacerbating this basic problem is the fact that Americans in general have a VERY strong anti-intellectual bent. Look at who the fundies and conservatives insult when they want to demonize groups of people... "Ivory Tower" professors, "pointy headed" academics, various "media elites" etc. To many people in the US, common stupidity & ignorance.. the "common sense" that is really just the sum of our predjudices as Mark Twain said.. is actually a virtue.

                  Look at the percentage of the general public who believes in creationism for verification of this. The percentage drops to much smaller proportions in those who've had some college education, to still smaller proportions in people who have BS's, and to astronomically tiny proportions in people who hold Masters / PhD level studies in the sciences.

                  I agree though that generalizations about why a particular group holds a particular belief are pointless. One can hold a correct belief for irrational reasons and an incorrect belief for what one sincerely believes to be rational reasons etc..

                  Sorry if I'm rambling, I have been drinking this morning. Its almost bedtime.

                  Last edited by Gutterboy; 12-18-2002, 05:53 AM.

                  Comment

                  • theking
                    Nice Kitty
                    • Sep 2002
                    • 21053

                    #10
                    Common sense is the result of real life experience and yes, it includes, prejudice and perception (or mis-perception) as well.
                    When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!

                    FOR THE LYING LOWLIFE POSTING AS PATHFINDER...http://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-pr...athfinder.html

                    Comment

                    • Fletch XXX
                      GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!!
                      • Jan 2002
                      • 60840

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Colin
                      Labret is fond of saying that people that like things that are popular can be likened to cattle. Those that like music that appears on MTV are cattle. Those that are Zionists are cattle. Those that think the US government is an effective and good government are cattle.

                      It seems to me that people can be (only very roughly) broken down into these 4 categories as far as any belief/thought/taste.

                      A. People that think "IT" for rather independent reasons.
                      B. People that think "IT" largely because other people do.
                      C. People that don't think "IT" for rather independent reasons.
                      D. People that don't think "IT" largely because people have influenced them to not think it.

                      OK, that's an oversimplification but to make a point and further categories wont diminish the argument.

                      I don't see how Labret (or anyone) can accurately call someone cattle or sheep for any belief based on their belief only. It requires knowledge (probably not attainable) as to how that person actually came to that conclusion. Anyone that believes (or likes) something may very well be in category A OR B. They may very well have a popular belief based on at least as much reason as Labret claims to use.

                      Furthermore, it seems that the categories of A and D are similar. Liking a particular popular music style for example is no different than liking it because it is unpopular or being more likely to like it because it is unpopular. Someone that rejects something simply because it is popular
                      is just a different breed of cattle.

                      Without questioning each person as to their reasons - and even then it is complicated - one cannot make the generalization Labret makes with any accuracy.

                      Labret's cattle are myth. The moo's are in his head.
                      Moooo.

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                      Comment

                      • jimmyf
                        OU812
                        • Feb 2001
                        • 12651

                        #12
                        Originally posted by quiet
                        simply put: do you think people reason things out and make their own decisions, or do you think they follow (and agree with) what they see in mainstream media?

                        in general?
                        in general, yes they follow (and agree with) what they see in mainstream media. far 2 many.
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                        • cherrylula
                          lol
                          • Jan 2002
                          • 15969

                          #13
                          People are just too lazy to look past their tv most of the time. Or the radio.

                          They are often too caught up in their own miserable lives to care about searching for new and exciting information, and prefer to leave it to the media to shove things down their throat.

                          And sometimes people only see what they want to see anyhow.

                          Comment

                          • angelsofporn
                            Confirmed User
                            • Mar 2002
                            • 3218

                            #14
                            give me eminem, a budweiser and "The Real World" I will buy all products as i am told to. The direction the money flows out of my wallet is directed by Carson Daley and the guy that runs Paramount. Once walmart has completely destroyed any hope of entreprenerial spiit anywhere in the world this will be a better place. You know what we need..A more direct medium to get our money in the hands of the people that are going to get it any way. So when they blast "8 mile" all over everything you just send 20th century fox a check directly..Fuck going and seeing the thing..just send them the money..save the gas etc.

                            Comment

                            • RedShoe
                              赤い靴 call me 202-456-1111
                              • Feb 2001
                              • 14831

                              #15
                              What the fuck am I missing? Who's Labret?

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                              • theking
                                Nice Kitty
                                • Sep 2002
                                • 21053

                                #16
                                Originally posted by RedShoe
                                What the fuck am I missing? Who's Labret?
                                A cattle rancher???
                                When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!

                                FOR THE LYING LOWLIFE POSTING AS PATHFINDER...http://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-pr...athfinder.html

                                Comment

                                • ADL Colin
                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                  • Feb 2001
                                  • 11929

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by angelsofporn
                                  You know what we need..A more direct medium to get our money in the hands of the people that are going to get it any way.
                                  That's us. Get to work!


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                                  • cherrylula
                                    lol
                                    • Jan 2002
                                    • 15969

                                    #18
                                    I know a guy who doesn't even believe us when we tell him bangbus is fake.

                                    Comment

                                    • angelsofporn
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Mar 2002
                                      • 3218

                                      #19
                                      Was flipping throught the channels the other Saturday morning early and i watched a few mins of a little kids cartoon..i mean for kids about 5-8 years old and it goes to a commercial for pop tarts then a commercial for MTV's TRL show with Carson Daley. This just goes to show you...they are recruiting the future sheep consuming machines..or creating them...very early now...sick shit

                                      Comment

                                      • Kimmykim
                                        bitchslapping zebras!!!!!
                                        • Jun 2001
                                        • 16015

                                        #20
                                        Oh Colin, people are indeed sheep. The true sense of the meaning is not when they are sitting home alone, and might actually get a glimmer of thought that was original; no, it's the simple fact that if you get nearly everyone into specific situations, i.e. sitting in a movie theater, shopping at Target, hell, even getting a haircut, it's so very easy for the bulk majority of them to be talked into doing something that they either wouldn't be too sure of doing or would absolutely not do it if they'd sat at home longer waiting on the glimmer.

                                        Comment

                                        • Mr Pheer
                                          Top Rated CEO
                                          • Dec 2002
                                          • 22132

                                          #21
                                          Colin

                                          Man you're putting too much energy into this labret thing. Just remember, labret is about as significant as a bug on your windshield. Hit the wipers, keep going down the road and think nothing of it.

                                          Comment

                                          • ADL Colin
                                            Too lazy to set a custom title
                                            • Feb 2001
                                            • 11929

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by MrPheer
                                            Colin

                                            Man you're putting too much energy into this labret thing. Just remember, labret is about as significant as a bug on your windshield. Hit the wipers, keep going down the road and think nothing of it.
                                            Why? I find talking debating/talking/speaking with Labret to be challenging and interesting. I would never consider that to be energy wasted.


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                                            • ADL Colin
                                              Too lazy to set a custom title
                                              • Feb 2001
                                              • 11929

                                              #23
                                              KK - I would never deny that social conformity is a powerful influence on people. I have specifically said it is. My point at the top of the thread is that one cannot say that people that like, say popular music are any more of cattle than any other group. There are only so many producers and the rest of us choose from the alernatives.

                                              You can

                                              1. Not listen to music
                                              2. Listen to music that already exists
                                              3. Create your own music

                                              3. Well, many of us are too busy doing other things in our life to create our own music. I really don't see how that would earn one a sheep label.

                                              1. Maybe these are the true individualists. Not many of them though.

                                              2. Listen to music that already exists. OK, what kind of music do you like? Choose using any method you like. Once you've chosen - can I determine from your choice whether you made your choice because you've heard music like it before or whether it is some innate psycho-match
                                              to something you're disposed to like (maybe far-fetched), or whether you related to the lyrics, or whether you thought it was complex.

                                              I argue above that you can't tell.

                                              I like Eminem. I like Yngwie Malmsteen. I like Chopin. I like Shania Twain. I like Al Dimeola.
                                              I don't like Garth Brooks. I don't like Aretha Franklin. I don't like blues. Can you tell me to what degree this makes me a "sheep"?

                                              If I like Beethoven, am I a sheep because his music is popular in that genre?
                                              Last edited by ADL Colin; 12-18-2002, 11:21 AM.


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                                              • Kimmykim
                                                bitchslapping zebras!!!!!
                                                • Jun 2001
                                                • 16015

                                                #24
                                                It's not about the music you like Colin, it's what you buy when you go to the record store.

                                                Any time you turn on your tv, open a magazine or a newspaper, or leave your house, you are bombarded with messages -- some quite subtle and quite good -- that tell you that you really like something else. It's the marketing aspect.

                                                For instance, a big emotional setup in sales -- something that could be applied to porn in a slightly different manner -- is to talk to a prospect about 'their' new car, 'their' new sofa, whatever the product may be -- the faster you can identify it in their mind as belonging to them, the easier it is to make a sale.

                                                Here's another trick -- the next time you are face to face with someone, pick an idea, I don't care what it is, and start talking to them about how you think it's a great idea -- the more farfetched the better even! -- and as you are talking to the person, every time you make a key point about your great idea, nod your head just a bit -- and watch, 90% of the time they will start nodding their head right back at you -- a psychological trick that starts them thinking this idea might have merit, they are agreeing with you, at least subconsciously -- which is the only place you really need to start in order to get the sale, conversion, etc.

                                                Comment

                                                • cherrylula
                                                  lol
                                                  • Jan 2002
                                                  • 15969

                                                  #25
                                                  yeah listen to music that already exists, however most people assume that what they hear on the radio is what exists. Just like they think the tv is the main source for good information.

                                                  There is so much good music out there, to assume that you are limited to the crap that spews from corporate radio or what corporate record stores advertise is ignorant.

                                                  But then again, some people just don't care too much about music so they listen to what they can. Over and over and over and over and over with long commercials inbetween. moooooooo

                                                  Comment

                                                  • L0stMind
                                                    Confirmed User
                                                    • Sep 2002
                                                    • 1681

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Fletch XXX


                                                    Moooo.
                                                    Damn you for takin my line!

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                                                    • ColKurtz
                                                      So Fucking Banned
                                                      • Oct 2002
                                                      • 596

                                                      #27
                                                      Speaking of MTV, man that shit is getting raunchy lately. A christina aguilara video that shows two guys french kissing wtf. And 90% of the latest 'real world' is devoted to which roommates are fucking each other without using any protection.

                                                      Hell of a thing to be teaching young kids.

                                                      MTV's basic agenda:

                                                      -Drug use is fine.
                                                      -Homosexuality is completely normal and should be imbraced.
                                                      -All women are bitches and hoes.
                                                      -Have premarital sex with as many partners as possible and dont use protection.
                                                      -Nothing wrong with having kids out of wedlock.
                                                      -Any view that isn't far left is evil and wrong.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • ADL Colin
                                                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                        • Feb 2001
                                                        • 11929

                                                        #28
                                                        KK - we're still having two completely different conversations. I am NOT denying that there are a multitude of comformity factors that work on all of us - in varying degrees at various times.

                                                        You're trying to convince me of factors that I already agree with you exist. ;-)

                                                        I am saying something completely different. That one cannot determine who is more or less of a sheep by their actual choice. In the end, any two people may have used similarly individualistic methods to arrive at two different conclusions - whether that be choice of political candidate, favorite food, music style, or whatever.

                                                        cherrylula - are you going to presume that what you like in music is good and others is shit. Go ahead and tell us what you like. I guarantee you someone else will think it is not. How did you come to be the world's supreme authority on what "good" music is.


                                                        ColKurtz - I agree with at least some of MTV's agenda.


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                                                        • cherrylula
                                                          lol
                                                          • Jan 2002
                                                          • 15969

                                                          #29
                                                          Mtv, imo, is not for kids.

                                                          Future generations are going to be so fucked. All my friends are having kids because they think its the thing to do. Wait til they all become teenagers, they'll be sorry!

                                                          Comment

                                                          • ADL Colin
                                                            Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                            • Feb 2001
                                                            • 11929

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Kimmykim
                                                            every time you make a key point about your great idea, nod your head just a bit -- and watch, 90% of the time they will start nodding their head right back at you
                                                            You can also see this in effect on any talk show and also on those religious shows on Sunday morning - or on the CHURCH CHANNEL.


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                                                            • Fletch XXX
                                                              GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!!
                                                              • Jan 2002
                                                              • 60840

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by ColKurtz


                                                              -Drug use is fine.
                                                              -Homosexuality is completely normal and should be imbraced.
                                                              -All women are bitches and hoes.
                                                              -Have premarital sex with as many partners as possible and dont use protection.
                                                              -Nothing wrong with having kids out of wedlock.
                                                              -Any view that isn't far left is evil and wrong.
                                                              Sounds like the 60's


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                                                              • Kimmykim
                                                                bitchslapping zebras!!!!!
                                                                • Jun 2001
                                                                • 16015

                                                                #32
                                                                Ah but Colin, I think you can identify the sheep. You don't do it with one thing, like music, but a compendium of things -- the cars they drive, the music they listen to, the neighborhood they live in even -- if you only use one factor then you have no way of being certain of anything, since 1x is still only 1 x no matter how many ways you fry it up.

                                                                But 1xy, now there's a world of possibilities...

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Mr Pheer
                                                                  Top Rated CEO
                                                                  • Dec 2002
                                                                  • 22132

                                                                  #33
                                                                  I tried to listen to music that doesnt exist, but I couldnt hear anything

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • cherrylula
                                                                    lol
                                                                    • Jan 2002
                                                                    • 15969

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Colin

                                                                    cherrylula - are you going to presume that what you like in music is good and others is shit. Go ahead and tell us what you like. I guarantee you someone else will think it is not. How did you come to be the world's supreme authority on what "good" music is.
                                                                    honestly, I don't really spend much time caring about what others think is good or shit.

                                                                    I have no doubt there are lots of things I like which others do not. And vice versa.

                                                                    I'm no supreme authority on anything. I just tend to like artistic things that come from the soul, opposed to canned music aimed towards the masses or anything of that sort. American Idol, ya dig?

                                                                    I have much more respect for someone who is doing something ultimately because they enjoy it. Not saying artists don't deserve to make it big, but if not for the media shoving certain artists down everyone's throat they would ultimately suck. And the desire for attention and fame doesn't count.

                                                                    Politicians who say things because they have financial interest at stake don't count. Pop stars who sing songs other people write don't count.

                                                                    People who speak their mind and what they believe in are who count. I value/respect integrity and positve self worth more than anything.

                                                                    People in general are too afraid of what society thinks of them, so they stick to what the tv/radio/tabloids teach them.

                                                                    I feel like I'm part of some internet underground world sometimes. Its fun.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • ADL Colin
                                                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                      • Feb 2001
                                                                      • 11929

                                                                      #35
                                                                      cherrylula,

                                                                      I like your answer.

                                                                      KK,

                                                                      I'm very curious.

                                                                      Who would be more of a sheep? The Porsche owner or the Toyota Corolla owner? Why?

                                                                      Who is more of a sheep? Someone that lives in a mansion or someone that lives in the ghetto?


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                                                                      • fnet
                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                        • Jul 2002
                                                                        • 1721

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Colin
                                                                        KK - I would never deny that social conformity is a powerful influence on people. I have specifically said it is. My point at the top of the thread is that one cannot say that people that like, say popular music are any more of cattle than any other group. There are only so many producers and the rest of us choose from the alernatives.

                                                                        You can

                                                                        1. Not listen to music
                                                                        2. Listen to music that already exists
                                                                        3. Create your own music

                                                                        3. Well, many of us are too busy doing other things in our life to create our own music. I really don't see how that would earn one a sheep label.

                                                                        1. Maybe these are the true individualists. Not many of them though.

                                                                        2. Listen to music that already exists. OK, what kind of music do you like? Choose using any method you like. Once you've chosen - can I determine from your choice whether you made your choice because you've heard music like it before or whether it is some innate psycho-match
                                                                        to something you're disposed to like (maybe far-fetched), or whether you related to the lyrics, or whether you thought it was complex.

                                                                        I argue above that you can't tell.

                                                                        I like Eminem. I like Yngwie Malmsteen. I like Chopin. I like Shania Twain. I like Al Dimeola.
                                                                        I don't like Garth Brooks. I don't like Aretha Franklin. I don't like blues. Can you tell me to what degree this makes me a "sheep"?

                                                                        If I like Beethoven, am I a sheep because his music is popular in that genre?
                                                                        I'd argue that our music distribution medium is now wandering away from the sheep effect... more like an anthill now.

                                                                        on #3 - music is happiness. no one should be denied the pleasure of making music. if you interview 100 good programmers you'll find that half of them are musicians who actually compose music. original intention. inspired action rather than just reaction.

                                                                        of course #2 is part of #3. liking popular music doesn't make you a sheep. complacency does.

                                                                        on #1 - the 3 individuals i've known who disdain music entirely- my best friend, my grandfather, and a mutual friend of both of them- are/were the opposite of sheep.

                                                                        there is a difference between the person who adapts to their environment until there is no friction - and the person who adapts their environment into something meaningful through collision. everyone has done both to some extent. even nietzsche.
                                                                        the sound of one hand googlewhacking

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                                                                        • ADL Colin
                                                                          Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                          • Feb 2001
                                                                          • 11929

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by fnet


                                                                          liking popular music doesn't make you a sheep. complacency does.

                                                                          Complacency in what respect?


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                                                                          • [Labret]
                                                                            Registered User
                                                                            • May 2001
                                                                            • 10945

                                                                            #38

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • ADL Colin
                                                                              Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                              • Feb 2001
                                                                              • 11929

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by [Labret]
                                                                              You're the one with the tattoo looking the other way, right? ;-)


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                                                                              • [Labret]
                                                                                Registered User
                                                                                • May 2001
                                                                                • 10945

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by Colin


                                                                                You're the one with the tattoo looking the other way, right? ;-)
                                                                                You seem fixated on this tattoo thing.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • ADL Colin
                                                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                  • Feb 2001
                                                                                  • 11929

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by [Labret]


                                                                                  You seem fixated on this tattoo thing.
                                                                                  You seem fixated on not addressing the thread.


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                                                                                  • [Labret]
                                                                                    Registered User
                                                                                    • May 2001
                                                                                    • 10945

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Colin


                                                                                    You seem fixated on not addressing the thread.
                                                                                    I wasnt aware it was for me. Rather it was a criticism of my beliefs and my appearance / lifestyle... asking others opinions about it. You already know my opinion.

                                                                                    Enough people have posted the obvious responses, its been fun too watch.

                                                                                    You know what and who the cattle are, I know who and what sheeple are, you can dance and play your little semantics games all you want. There are people who's enter lives and careers revolve around and are dedicated to studying and developing better methods to manipulate the herd. Like the idea of cattle is my brainchild?

                                                                                    You seem to be taking lessons from PleasurePays... that being the "lets play stupid" game. I am disappointed. Dont let him pull you down with him. Jump off that sinking ship.

                                                                                    Mooooooo
                                                                                    Last edited by [Labret]; 12-19-2002, 08:54 AM.

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                                                                                    • ADL Colin
                                                                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                      • Feb 2001
                                                                                      • 11929

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by [Labret]
                                                                                      I wasnt aware it was for me.
                                                                                      Title wasn't a clue?

                                                                                      Originally posted by [Labret]
                                                                                      Rather it was a criticism of my beliefs
                                                                                      I figured you have good reason for believing what you do. Question meant to see why and if I understand you properly. I might be mistaken.

                                                                                      Originally posted by [Labret]
                                                                                      "lets play stupid"
                                                                                      See above.


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