Nasty Dollars - who can explain THIS SHIT?

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Sometimes Topbucks stats appear that were for transactions made weeks ago. It also coincides with lowered traffic.

obviously they have to make a profit so they shave you.

Don't want to be shaved? go with a recurring program (a reputable one).

The argument usually goes like this?

Norm Webmaster: How can they afford to pay £35 per a signup?

GFY Guru: They are obviously shaving.

Program Owner: No we do not shave we make revenue off upsells, exits etc.

GFY Guru: But you pay ALL webmasters on Exits?

Program Owner: We do not shave.

My Oppinion: Most "Pay per signup" programs shave in some way. It is true upsells can help alot but when webmaster programs are also offering oodles of free content, free hosting etc etc surely this equals the other income streams leaving us with a program that must shave to survive.

Stealing or cheating is never right.

Thats also bullshit to only care what you take home and let them steal what they want. Once someone starts stealing they dont just stop. They just take more and more.

so the zero's i'm seeing are good? or the 1:3500 ratios? stealing is stealing, no matter if they pay 50 bux a sign up. honesty counts for something.

True Darren, however, Nasty Dollars pay per active signup... well, sort of. If a member doesn't "cancel or reverse the charge" within the first 12 hours, then the webmaster is credited with the signup. Otherwise Nasty will pocket the $5 from the trial, less their expenses.

I'm guessing that they have proven statistically that after the trial has been active for 12 hours, there is a large likely percentage that the member will stay and convert to a full membership (much more than paying as soon as a trial occurs)... at $40 for the month. $45 total covers the processor fee, the webmaster payment and as they're high volume, the remaining $4-7 on scale will cover their content production costs. Any rebills from there will see their bandwidth costs and put them into profit.

Just 'cause someone didn't cancel in the first 12 hours, we know that it doesn't mean they'll stay. So, how many will? Maybe 55-75% of them. 75% a lot, but remember that Nasty run extremely high quality sites and the member gets access to all of them upon signup... and remember that they only credit signups if the member is still active after 12 hours.

Remember that it's all speculation and dancing with numbers... not fact. If any solution existed to make sure that they don't make a loss, it would be to shave. I'm sure their profit is already big... but combined with taking (shaving) a % of the signups after 12 hours, the profit would be huge. Who knows... it's not like they have shady click counting to factor for shady signup counting, use your own click counting software and you'll see that their count is mostly accurate.

Webmasters that have something to complain about will always whine but those that have good things to say will rarely say anything. Is anyone doing as well with Nasty as you were at the start of the year?

I'm looking at the Nasty checks and they're nice, with checks like that I don't give a flying fuck about whatever they claim my conversions are. However, I'm also looking at the fact that when I stop sending traffic - usually after 4/5 days of the signups dropping to 0 - a bunch of signups spontaneously appear in my stats for no reason. Then they'll drop to 0 again. Wtf?

Darren,

All sponsors don't shave. It would be nice to know how many do but who knows. I think sponsors are going to be more closely watched, which is good. I don't understand why any sponsor would shave like I have said before. Webmasters sending the traffic are responsible for probably 90%+ of their traffic so wouldn't the sponsor want the webmaster to stick around? We certainly want our webmasters to stick around, we have had many with us for years. We allow test signups at anytime and do not shave. Also sponsors can also still shave on recurring, I have seen it before. Usually they pay you for one or two recurring months and then drop you even though the member is still active. Going with recurring does not mean you won't get shaved. I would suggest trying many sponsors and see which one works the best and find one you can trust. It really does not matter what they pay but if they are paying way more than they are charging members chances are they are going to have to cover those expenses somehow, hum.

Mark

if their retention is great then they can pay more than what they charge members. most paysites out there suck shit and have a bunch of plug in content thats not even as good as the quality at most tgp's.

All sponsors DON'T shave?

Get real.. most sponsors DO shave.. there are just different ways of shaving.
If a cookie files hold your ref code only for one visit it's some kind of shaving...
If the paysite changed a simple setting in CCBill (example) to only pay for the first 2 rebills it's shaving...

I've seen paysite who used CCBill and switched to some other shitty affiliate program where the recurrings dropped with 80%. Ofcourse the paysite owners says "Blablabla.. I'm not fucking you.. yeah your ass itches.. but thats not because of something I do"...

Paysites are shaving.. and we just don't have to balls to sue one of these bastards.. because basicly they can shave because most webmasters seem to accept it happens!?

companies like ccbill shouldn't allow companies to shave.

Joefoxxx,

Yes I said All sponsors DON'T shave but I agree most probably do but there are some honest ones out there. I do not agree with some of the things that CCBill has in their admin but they do watch their affiliate programs pretty closely. We actually had something incorrect at first and it overpaid a webmaster over $1,000 and we still paid him and took the loss. As for the cookie I believe it stays on the persons computer for 24 hours or something like that. Here is a good way we discovered how to test it. After signing up and getting your unique url code paste it in your browser and go to the site. Then you want to go to the signup page and view source and then search for your affiliate code which should be way on the bottom. Tnis way you know it is passing the cookie. You can also go to the signup page again later and see if your affiliate id is still there. We switched to 3rd party awhile ago and did alot of testing etc to choose with affiliate to go through. We do not shave in anyway and like I said before do a test signup at anytime and you will see that we don't shave. Webmasters are the most important thing for us and we don't see screwing any of them to make money because we want them to stay with us not be pissed and leave.

Mark

WTF are you babbling about that for in this thread? Unless Tam's shaved you while Aaron was watching, it's pretty much irrelevant and pointless.

I am experiencing the same thing. I'd rather make $20/per signup and have a 1:750 signup ratio, because I can pour in 10,000 uniques a day.. that's a good living.. it is better than 0:5000

this guy is more boring than sex.com movie with no car chasing

I first would start off by saying most sponsor's have a scripted loaded when you send a shit load of hits for awhile it's fine then you start pulling it out it triggers the script so it spits out a few signups to keep you there? then if you lets say put your traffic back
then the shave is on full for a unknow time period? this what I make of it sorta.. or some of the smaller outfits are flagged running a script again could be software when your unique ratios
drop? something like that? we all know after all you can throw the switch on/off on ibill as I use to run our other paysites.
(we had a in house deal going, our own traffic only)
lastly I think it will end up like just a flat fee introduced to get in as a surfer like $20.00 or $30? getting your green up front and no roll overs one shot unless they have a choice to buy 2 months
member ship. like the good old days! all being prepaid. would be the best way to go? no cancellations they've paid and if they leave early who gives a rats ass!. I really think this is where the industry is heading. frankly I'm betting on it will. seeing it started
with trials then 1 day free crap. then some are doing 30 minutes
free. and some are doing 1week free. for witch is nuts. I think..
this free pass stuff shouldn't be happening in the first place?
this is partly killing the trial formula.. as far as shaving and misleading the webmaster's that pretty darn nasty. just stealing traffic? the smart webmasters with typeins open there own doors
seeing the well has run dry with some of the bigger sponsors
they still think the webmaster is stupid or something or just think
the webmaster is just going to sit there and take the burn job..
Someone said that (a webmaster) It only matters about the money or the numbers on his/her check? your dead wrong dear..
Because it tells me what volume of traffic to get that said paycheck? numbers/ratios are inportant to me! it tells me how your collecting your hit/counts. be it first,second,third, pages uniques?
he.he. that a rap..

this was a long speech but something to think
about and chew on. good evening JIVE.

If should be the other way around.
Good sales always and the one day nada.
Not bad sale and one day great.

We have always allowed test signups.
You can join any of our sites and then e-mail us and we will refund you ! http://www.legcash.com

Jeroman

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I have the same ratio, maybe your traffic got shitty

I think you're mistaken.

From Nasty's TOS
A qualified signup is defined to be a signup that does not result in a refund or reversal in the first 4 hours of membership.

That's not exactly paying "per active signup"

Well, it said 12 hours last time I checked. Admittedly that was about 2 months ago ... My mistake.

You know that would be all fine and dandy if the sponsor said, "Just send us whatever traffic you can and we'll pay you what we think if fair for it." Then this would be ok... but they don't say that... they say, "We will pay you a set price for each sign up you generate." and then they decide what is fair, while you're thinking the terms of the deal are 'per sign up'. That's called theft and lying. aka Fraud.


How about a real world example... Travel Agents.. they make their money by arranging/referring sales to Cruise lines, Airlines, resorts, etc... do you think for a minute that the travel agent would do this if the airlines wree to say, "Just send us the customers, and we'll pay you what we think is a fair amount." Nope.

This whole ," You should only pay attention to the bottom line..." stance is complete and utter bullshit. Just another way of saying,"Shut up, close your eyes, and bend over."

Same shit here -- with me and some webmaster friends. With most sponsors you can just quickly swap out the links.

This is a lesson in NEVER using sponsor content.

Just took them off my front page and am looking at new sponsors to throw traffic at.

Use a recurring sponsor on Avs and search engine traffic.
Use per sign up on TGP.

A good recurring will have 40-50% conversion with Avs and search engine surfers.

You are lucky with 1 in10 on TGP traffic.

Do it for 90 days and see if your income isn't up.

hmm, ic ...

There's another angle to shaving that has been overlooked so far. --- It makes it hard to improve and properly adjust your gallery designs and marketing techniques.

Example: I make a gallery from a completely new template and submit it to some tgp's. In reality, the gallery makes three sign-ups, but these are shaved from me, so I erroneously discard the template as worthless...

What I'm trying to say is, correct and un-shaved stats is crucial for succesful marketing and will in the long run bring me and my sponsor more sign-ups than with shaved stats. That's why it isn't enough with just the bottomline --- i.e. checks in your mailbox.

Used both recurring and persignup with AVS and personally, I prefer persignup. But as you say, it's all in the quality of the paysite. There are so many fucking lame paysites out there.

Using recurring sponsors with AVS commonplace but I disagree with the whole thing. They have credit cards/checking accounts, but this isn't '97 and thus there is such a huge wealth of sites to buy from. Blacks on Blondes... Bang Bus... Karups PC... Cum Fiesta... anyone that's into their porn (as AVS members are) is going to want to see more than 1 site. My guestimation is that most AVS members don't just buy their password, buy 1 paysite membership, and then lose interest in porn forever. We're talking about an audience of perverts here. The majority of AVS members know what they're doing and most aren't going to rebill for 3 months to bring a $35 signup equivalent UNLESS we're talking about one extraordinary paysite. AdultBouncer, for example (okay, it's an AVS but you get the idea...), is great value for the member. A horny guy buys an Adult Bouncer membership from an Adult Check site? Fuck, he'll stay for months.

I get the feeling that Holio feeds just don't cut it anymore. Anyone still trying to work the old angle of "200,000 pics" and "30,000 live xxx feeds" in their text links needs to get a fucking grip on their creation skills. But that's another matter.

In other terms, the majority of AVS members know when to cancel -- especially free AVS members... if they didn't already learn to cancel before their membership renews at a higher rate, then they'll certainly learn when the $39.95 shows on their bank statement.

I feel that the only reason to use recurring sponsors with AVS members is to feel more comfortable with the reduced likeliness of shaving, if it's your own paysite, or if there is no half-decent persignup alternative.

There is NOTHING better than counting your own clicks to a sponsor and seeing that you're converting 1:20. Choose the sponsors wisely and that's an honest, guaranteed $35 a pop.

Any newbies out there shouldn't just accept whatever the fuck they read on message boards or webmaster resource sites. Develop your own ideas, please. If everyone is reading the same shit, using the same techniques, same text links, same banners, then where's the competition in that?

Everyone make your own preference. I do use some recurring sponsors but I do prefer an honest persignup approach... feel free to shoot me down in flames if you like, but that's my personal preference considering the past few years.

Search engine traffic is a different matter.

ldinternet I have been reading and posting on boards for years and I can tell you that was the best post I have ever read
\

5 Stars...5 thumbs up!

jive -

i highly doubt prepay would work. nobody would signup up. they would be afraid of getting ripped off. at least with a credit card there's some level of security for the surfer. what's to stop a dishonest sponser from making a hot tour and a GHETTO members area and charging $20 a prepaid pop? saying that you don't care if they cancel because it's already paid for is dishonest in itself.

the purpose is to give surfers a look at the members area so they know what to expect from a full membership. a free trial results in more signups and a better chance to make a sale if the site is good enough. the best way in the interest of both sponser and webmasters is a per active type of deal. but we obviously know webmasters don't like that.

well.. that is only part of the equation. it's true that the only thing that matters is the bottom line. but of course if you're sending a sponser A 5000 hits to get $500 and sponser B 1000 hits to get $300 there is a BIG difference you would want to go with sponser B and send them more traffic. but with sponsers nowadays who knows wtf they're counting (raw, unique, 2nd page unique, join page), that's why ratios doesn't really matter. everyone should be counting their own clicks out to know a true ratio for THEIR traffic

Yes, but with shaving, the true ratio is still hidden from you. Of course, you can relate the traffic sent to the amount on the sponsor's check, but that's a too crude measure if you want to fine-tune your marketing techniques.

unfortunately that is so true, but nothing can be done about that you will never really know if a sponser shaves or not. if you use more sponsers, i think you can lessen the effect and have a better idea if your techniques are working. and if ai sponser is giving you a smaller check... go to another

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"Consistancy in the numbers."

3rd party stats, great sites.

maybe...

Thats a good point Lord Assmore.. shaving hurts everyone in the end.. alot of people have stopped promoting Ox, because of all their shaving.

I contacted one of their employees after I saw him posting on another board and he didn't even write back!