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playa

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#1

Check Returns!!

11-07-2002, 03:42 PM

i understand that checks take like 3 or 4 days to process but in the mean time the surfer gets access to the site,,

i have noticed like 25% of all check users are returned which really sucks,,

what does your current proccessor do with a check returns?
are there any reattempts to get the money back?

should we be charging like an extra $25 fee for bounced checks?
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EscortBiz

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#2

11-07-2002, 03:50 PM

more like 35 for me or a bit more its bad and im thinking of what to do

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The Other Steve

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#3

11-07-2002, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by playa

i have noticed like 25% of all check users are returned which really sucks,,

We found nearly 100% of our check sales were cancelled. Nothing seemed to be done by the billing company to attempt to recover the money so we ditched check sales a couple of years back.

Left intentionally blank ... just like my brain
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playa

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#4

11-07-2002, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by The Other Steve

We found nearly 100% of our check sales were cancelled. Nothing seemed to be done by the billing company to attempt to recover the money so we ditched check sales a couple of years back.

DAMN,, that's bad,,

but what about people that use debit cards as VISA/mastercard

what happens to those when isn't any funds
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Keev

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#5

11-07-2002, 04:04 PM

Playa I have played with accepting online checks and it also backfired almost all bounced or were canceled so don'[t worry its a online idea that isn't working especially for membership or digital good related business models.

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playa

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#6

11-07-2002, 04:07 PM

but check users usually hold the longest members retention,,

processors should have ways to get their money back
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#7

11-07-2002, 04:08 PM

i hate checks.

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bawdy

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#8

11-07-2002, 04:16 PM

all the checks signups i got through flynt or cq have always been cancelled... wish the they didnt have the option..
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necoeds

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#9

11-07-2002, 04:17 PM

I just did the math and if my 4th grade teacher (the last grade i can remember anything from) taught me good..... my bouced check percentage is only 8% And i get on average 3.22 check sales a day, so it's not a big hit on me....

Is my case a rare?

My personal opinion is that the majority of the checks that bounce are a complete fraud transaction from the begining.....
i.e. bogus bank info, etc.

And if i'm right, there's really nothing that can be done with the current check system (at least the one ibill uses)

One thought though..... I was at burger king the other day, wrote them a check and they ran it through some fucking machine that voided the fucker and supposidly took the dough out of my account instantly...... and if that thing really does what it says it does, then why doesn't ibill, and other processors adopt something like that.....

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Jak

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#10

11-07-2002, 04:19 PM

Almost every e-check we accepted for Strip Kittens ended up bouncing, after the "customer" had already downloaded the software. We got rid of check processing a few months back because of it. Never again, unless something can be done to fix the problems with accepting them.

Jak
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rdunn404

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#11

11-07-2002, 05:45 PM

I've found that legit check signups tend to last the longest, so I wouldn't want to give up checks alltogether. But what the billers should do is NOT allow access for three days for check signups and them email them a confirmation that allows them access to your site once the check clears. You want instant access? Use a credit card! Check signups are essentally free three day trials.
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playa

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#12

11-07-2002, 05:52 PM

any processors want jump in on this discussion
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WendyB

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#13

11-07-2002, 05:54 PM

In a perfect world it 3 or 4 days would be enough time, however I have had NSF, Fraud, Unauthorized returns as mush as 4 months after the sign up occured.

FYI, I am also charged a $18 return fee.

Not a huge problem with Debit cards. Same as credit cards because the authorization is real time, with AVS and Fraud scan

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[Labret]

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#14

11-07-2002, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by playa
i understand that checks take like 3 or 4 days to process but in the mean time the surfer gets access to the site,,

i have noticed like 25% of all check users are returned which really sucks,,

what does your current proccessor do with a check returns?
are there any reattempts to get the money back?

should we be charging like an extra $25 fee for bounced checks?

Here is a fun game I call "get into pron sites for free". It has worked for ages.

Get proxy
Go to site you want into
Signup via check, using correct routing number, but bullshit account number.
Enjoy free access.

They dont verify in real time, they only check the routing number. And big fucking deal.

They dont have your real ip and you got free access.

And if you dont think the surfer doesnt know about this, you are mistaken.

I would have imagined most of you would have figured it out by now. Evidently not.
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Theo

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#15

11-07-2002, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by playa

DAMN,, that's bad,,

but what about people that use debit cards as VISA/mastercard

what happens to those when isn't any funds

there's no such problem,if the debit card doesnt have the full amount of the trans/ion then it won't pass
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#16

11-07-2002, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by rdunn404
I've found that legit check signups tend to last the longest, so I wouldn't want to give up checks alltogether. But what the billers should do is NOT allow access for three days for check signups and them email them a confirmation that allows them access to your site once the check clears. You want instant access? Use a credit card! Check signups are essentally free three day trials.

You are correct, check joins will rebill at a higher amount than credit card joins. You can also charge different prices on check joins than credit cards.

Checks should add about 10% profit to your bottom line, net. You should ask your processor about delayed entry to your sites on check joins -- HOWEVER -- expect plenty of cancels and credit or refund requests from check joins if you go this route -- porn is an impulse item, not something a guy will wait a week to get. If you are only out the bandwidth that a bogus member uses, the cost of taking checks is probably alot less than you think.
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rdunn404

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#17

11-07-2002, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by [Labret]

Here is a fun game I call "get into pron sites for free". It has worked for ages.

Get proxy
Go to site you want into
Signup via check, using correct routing number, but bullshit account number.
Enjoy free access.

They dont verify in real time, they only check the routing number. And big fucking deal.

They dont have your real ip and you got free access.

And if you dont think the surfer doesnt know about this, you are mistaken.

I would have imagined most of you would have figured it out by now. Evidently not.

Haha.....right. I've used this method for awhile too. I think the routing number has to be right (easy to get) and the zip code/state have to match or something. Regardless you can get into ANY porn site this way. You say you're gonna remove the checks link from your JOIN page? FUCK YOU! I'll download your join page into Dreamweaver, edit your link for the credit card cgi page to a link to the processor's checks cgi page, open my edited page into a temp window, and wheeeee....I'm in your site. And yes, Joe Surfer does know this. Billers please do something about this!
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pine

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#18

11-07-2002, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by rdunn404
I'll download your join page into Dreamweaver, edit your link for the credit card cgi page to a link to the processor's checks cgi page, open my edited page into a temp window, and wheeeee....I'm in your site. And yes, Joe Surfer does know this. Billers please do something about this!

Unless your account with your 3rd party processor does not include a check option.

Online checks suck. We will never accept them again. We saw six signups and six refunds. It was all we needed to see.

unattended error: ID 10 T. Check connection between keyboard and chair.
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EscortBiz

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#19

11-07-2002, 07:53 PM

well here is thr way to look at it

the legit people who signup with checks who cares

the not legit people that make em bounce or enter fake ones well ccbill does not charge us a fee so really there is no loss

or am i missin somethin

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KRL

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#20

11-07-2002, 07:54 PM

I tested checks completely processed ourselves using VersaCheck software with the no signature required method and had about a 10% bounce rate. We verified checks manually before e-mailing the password since most banks offer phone numbers for merchants to call and quickly enter the account number to verify funds.

Then for the bouncers we had a very effective form letter we e-mailed highlighting their "pornography" purchase and giving them a short period of time to rectify the situation prior to us entering their data into all the databases on this wonderful little web site.

http://www.ckfraud.org/

We got amazingly quick make goods after they would see what that site does. Hahahahahahahahah.

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rdunn404

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#21

11-07-2002, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by EscortBiz
well here is thr way to look at it

the legit people who signup with checks who cares

the not legit people that make em bounce or enter fake ones well ccbill does not charge us a fee so really there is no loss

or am i missin somethin

Exactly. That's why i keep the check option. I figure a legit check that rebills for 3 months outweighs the fucker that gets in free for three days. The bandwith used isn't that critical.
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SunTzu

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#22

11-07-2002, 07:58 PM

It's not that all checks are bad, it's that the same users are re-signing with the bogus acc't #'s over and over. The major processors can't do realtime verifications.

Check out achdebit.com or electracash.com - both can do realtime verifications on about half of the accounts. And do a lot better job in verifying than the other processors.

I don't know why ccbill/epoch/ibill etc don't put more into doing realtime check verification or at least screen using one of the dbases out there.

Gtalk and email :: sd at tabu.com
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rdunn404

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#23

11-07-2002, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by SunTzu
It's not that all checks are bad, it's that the same users are re-signing with the bogus acc't #'s over and over. The major processors can't do realtime verifications.

Check out achdebit.com or electracash.com - both can do realtime verifications on about half of the accounts. And do a lot better job in verifying than the other processors.

I don't know why ccbill/epoch/ibill etc don't put more into doing realtime check verification or at least screen using one of the dbases out there.

Damn I forgot about that part, you're right. Do you know how many attempted check signups I get that say "You already have an existing account". I guess surfer A shouldn't have shared his little secret with surfer B, cause he inputted the same info and the only thing stoppig him was that someone got there first.
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WendyB

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#24

11-07-2002, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by SunTzu

I don't know why ccbill/epoch/ibill etc don't put more into doing realtime check verification or at least screen using one of the dbases out there.

The reason is simple. They make more money from the reversal fees that us webmasters get stuck paying

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EscortBiz

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#25

11-07-2002, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by WendyB

The reason is simple. They make more money from the reversal fees that us webmasters get stuck paying

CCBill does not hit you with a fee

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NETbilling

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#26

11-08-2002, 12:45 AM

Hi All,

We offer check processing with realtime Starcheck and Experian verfication. Our average return rate is about 14% for adult sites and 2% for mainstream. You do not need to process credit card with us to process checks if you are happy with your current CC processor.

Rates... 3.25% and 40 cents per transaction.

Interested?

Tell our sales department that I said "no setup fee" when you call tomorrow to see our system and signup.

You will be very happy.

Mitch

Mitch Farber
CEO - NETbilling, Inc.
Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456
Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998!
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picindex

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#27

11-08-2002, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by KRL
I tested checks completely processed ourselves using VersaCheck software with the no signature required method and had about a 10% bounce rate. We verified checks manually before e-mailing the password since most banks offer phone numbers for merchants to call and quickly enter the account number to verify funds.

Then for the bouncers we had a very effective form letter we e-mailed highlighting their "pornography" purchase and giving them a short period of time to rectify the situation prior to us entering their data into all the databases on this wonderful little web site.

http://www.ckfraud.org/

We got amazingly quick make goods after they would see what that site does. Hahahahahahahahah.

Any returned checks I got I just send to the DA's office if the account holder refuses to replace them. This is not porn related so I'm not sure the DA will take a "check draft" for a porn site. Anyone know?

Either way I think the payment processors should do a little more about this.

Good Content:
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chupacabra

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#28

11-08-2002, 01:12 AM

haven't taken checks since about this time last year, the percentage of returns was near 85%, and the few legitimate customers are jsut not worth the amount of wasted bandwidth... i was surprised to see so many talking about only a 3-day period of access for these losers however, we use ccBill to process solely and when we were still taking all of these rubberized checks, these ass-clowns would end up w/ way more than 3 days of access before they were cut off... many would go near the entire month before coming up as returns, and we had a few instances where multiple months would be all returned at once, not a pretty site..

...promise her a defamation, tell her where the rain will fall..
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KingK7

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#29

11-08-2002, 01:37 AM

It's become a bit worse, but with WTS we had check signups from 98, that are still recurring.
On average, a signup from 98 with a check is worth 105$ or so.
I have yet to see this with credit cards.

A % may refund, but the recurring ratio is more than outweighing it.

It's worse these days, but I still think the potential for online checks is great.
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Oliver Klozov

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#30

11-08-2002, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by Kimmykim

You are correct, check joins will rebill at a higher amount than credit card joins. You can also charge different prices on check joins than credit cards.

Checks should add about 10% profit to your bottom line, net. You should ask your processor about delayed entry to your sites on check joins -- HOWEVER -- expect plenty of cancels and credit or refund requests from check joins if you go this route -- porn is an impulse item, not something a guy will wait a week to get. If you are only out the bandwidth that a bogus member uses, the cost of taking checks is probably alot less than you think.

KimmyKim, always the breath of fresh air in a foggy world

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MakeMeGrrrrowl

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#31

11-08-2002, 01:47 AM

I'm sure it's different with us, because we verify all the information right away manually. If there is no automated line set up to do this at the clients bank, we don't do the sale.

Again before the check is deposited we check funds and verify all information with the bank.

I print my own checks, and deposit them the very next morning...if by chance there is a return for NSF, we just keep checking with that callers bank til they have the funds and go ahead and redeposit again, which could be a month later.

If we have no resolution, the company who I bought my software from will go into the persons bank and take the money out, provided it's available, and they don't charge me a fee for this...but I have never had to do that. =)
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wig

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#32

11-08-2002, 04:12 AM

Checks are a must on your paysite. There is a reason why all the top paysites accept checks.

If you are interested in accepting checks like Python, Cybererotica, SIC Cash, Silvercash, Gamma, Platinum Bucks and many others.... all the information you need is right here:

http://www.achdebit.com/sales

Credit Card and ACH Processing
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Mutt

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#33

11-08-2002, 04:57 AM

talk to wig guys. if anybody can help you with check processing it's ACHDEBIT.

I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!
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playa

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#34

11-08-2002, 05:06 AM

damn, i kinda of figured there was some kinda of fraud rather than NSF
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rdunn404

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#35

11-08-2002, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by playa
damn, i kinda of figured there was some kinda of fraud rather than NSF

Right, it's not that the surfer has $23 in their account so the biller cant charge them the $29.95 and it comes up NSF. It's that the info inputted in the first place is straight bogus!
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Darren

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#36

11-08-2002, 07:24 AM

GUYS! GLOBILL!

they do NOT allow the surfer access until the check as cleared, simple.

Penis enlargement / male enhancement pills - earn up to $229.48 per signup

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Kimmykim

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#37

11-08-2002, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by Oliver Klozov

KimmyKim, always the breath of fresh air in a foggy world

LOL! Our check joins are more than worth the returns, we simply look at it from a different perspective...
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SunTzu

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#38

11-08-2002, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by Darren
GUYS! GLOBILL!

they do NOT allow the surfer access until the check as cleared, simple.

Yeah I remember them mentioning that as an option. Can anyone tell us their experience with holding checks until they clear. I tend to agree with KK above that because porn is an impulse buy they may not wait for the check to clear etc..

Mitch @ Netbilling - do you guys do Canadian ACH too?

achdebit and electracash I know both do Canadian as well.

Thanks

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Fitzit

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#39

11-08-2002, 04:48 PM

I see some of the processors have put in plugs for their systems. I will do that too! First lets clear up and educate this thread.

Electracash will allow you too:
Hold access until the item clears, we offer transaction notification for all transactions, both good and bad. This will eliminate affiliate fraud and surfer fraud

Scrub out bad bank numbers, through global routing and transit number tables.

Validate account numbers to see if the account is open, closed, or NSF via StarCheck.

Limit the number of times a bank account number can be used for a sign up in a period of time.

Accept Canadian and US accounts in both US and Canadian Dollars. (Some processors only do Canadian Bank US Dollar accounts)

All of the cross sell, up sell, cancel saves and loyalty programs you use on Credit Cards.

Pre Populate Join forms from Credit Card declines.

Redirect check declines to dialers

Host your own Join Forms, pass Electracash the info in XML.

Add scrubs, like DOB DOD D.L. Address, even ask a client to verify who his relatives are.

Redeposit all NSF items TWICE, collect better than half of your NSF items.

Third Part Collection agencies allow an additional 25% of your NSF's to be collected.

Direct Deposit to your affiliates with US and Canadian Accounts, Check stuffing for affiliates globally.

Bottom Line, there are no TMF's with ACH. When the Visa regs shake out where will your revenue come from? If your CC processor locks you up, will you still get paid on your check base? Electracash Doesn't do credit cards and never will. Maybe you should think about having your money in more than one account with more than one processor.

If you tried checks and 10 out of 10 where bad, guess what, that was your traffic not your processor. An ACH processor with NO scrubbing will average 30% bad transactions. ACH also averages better than 30% conversion from trials to monthly.

Electracash has recurring transactions from January of 1999 of $39.95. We also have content providers collecting $900 a month recurring transactions. You can offer from FREE to $10K items and from 1 day to 3 year time periods.

OK so I think I addressed every question or beef about checks, so now here is the real plug, forget our links, call ME 562-498-6888. And I will personally answer your question.

Oh and Mitch, Electracsh NEVER charges a set up FEE!
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playa

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#40

11-08-2002, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Kimmykim

LOL! Our check joins are more than worth the returns, we simply look at it from a different perspective...

even worth the $35 to pay the webmasters also?
what Labret said got me wondering bout getting
paid from fraud check sign ups
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Kimmykim

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#41

11-08-2002, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by playa

even worth the $35 to pay the webmasters also?
what Labret said got me wondering bout getting
paid from fraud check sign ups

Yep, even worth paying out on. We don't have a huge problem with bad checks, and the valid check joins rebill ALOT longer on average than cc joins.
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wig

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#42

11-09-2002, 05:08 AM

even worth the $35 to pay the webmasters also?
what Labret said got me wondering bout getting
paid from fraud check sign ups
**********

All of our merchants pay out on settled checks funds, so this is not an issue. We provide a daily data dump that contains all the information.

Fitzit, glad to see you guys catching up to the leader. We were the first ACH processor and the first to do everything you listed. Thanks for saving me from having to type it all.

KK, perhaps you would like to share who your check processor is??

Credit Card and ACH Processing
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Fitzit

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#43

11-09-2002, 02:04 PM

Tell you the truth Wig, you are the only people in the ACH side we never have to talk bad about. Catch me off line if you want to start an Education Initiative with us to help educate the masses about why ACH works, before the January show.
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