Death penalty...Yes or No? - GoFuckYourself.com - Adult Webmaster Forum

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Fletch XXX

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#51

11-05-2002, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by SleazyDream

then go ask them about the total costs involed for a capital case and stop asking dumbassed questions on the board. duuuuuu

I asked because you as well as the other guy claimed I am incorrect. If I am, show me, I wont deny it. I just asked for proof.

And you still cant prove me otherwise. So shut the fuck up.

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#52

11-05-2002, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Funbrunette
Capital punishment is the ultimate denial of civil liberties because it violates the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment. I see it as a double standard?Basically you?re executing a person for killing another human? Two wrongs don?t make a right.

Instead, I think our jails should be more like jails and less and all inclusive resorts?

The 5th Amendment of the Constitution specifically *allows* the death penalty and it is quite clear that you can be "deprived of life, liberty, or property" as long as there is due process.

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
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#53

11-05-2002, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Funbrunette
I often wonder how a lawyer can defend someone like Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy...

why wonder about those lawyers - they lost - wonder about OJs lawyers.

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#54

11-05-2002, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX

Then show me the facts on how much it costs, I will believe you.

You can do your own research, but this is a known indisputable fact, and has been the case for all of my life. Maybe someone has a link readily available and will provide it for you.

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#55

11-05-2002, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by SleazyDream

why wonder about those lawyers - they lost - wonder about OJs lawyers.

Good point!

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Fletch XXX

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#56

11-05-2002, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by theking

You can do your own research, but this is a known indisputable fact, and has been the case for all of my life. Maybe someone has a link readily available and will provide it for you.

Youre the one slinging the Almighty I am Correct hammer.

All I ask is show me your source.

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eroswebmaster

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#57

11-05-2002, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX

Then show me the facts on how much it costs, I will believe you.

here's one example:
http://www.dnai.com/~mwood/deathpen.html#Costs

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GotGauge

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#58

11-05-2002, 10:51 AM

I gots an Idea,
everyone go out buy a gun,
Open all the jails, Letem run free,
see someone breaking in your house,
Give them the justice they deserve...
So basicaly if caught red handed....

No I am not serious about that above,
but, most people against anything
has not had anything happen to them...

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Fletch XXX

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#59

11-05-2002, 10:53 AM

hehehe this is how much Idaho criminals cost.

"The average inmate cost per day at the Department's prisons was $55.33 for fiscal year 2002 (which ended June 30, 2002). The average inmate cost per day at the community work centers is $43.64. The average offender cost per day for someone on probation or parole is $3.80."

Thats 20 grand a year per criminal and over 1 million for 50 years.

Funny.

Last edited by Fletch XXX; 11-05-2002, 10:55 AM.

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#60

11-05-2002, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX

I asked because you as well as the other guy claimed I am incorrect. If I am, show me, I wont deny it. I just asked for proof.

And you still cant prove me otherwise. So shut the fuck up.

some things are soo obvious they don't need proof, but I guess for someone with as little insite as you must be taken by the hand and walked across the street.

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#61

11-05-2002, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by eroswebmaster

here's one example:
http://www.dnai.com/~mwood/deathpen.html#Costs

Thank you. There are many more soucres of info. I have seen this very subject debated on TV hundreds of times since I was old enough to watch TV and understand what was being said. It makes one wonder how anyone could be ignorant about this subject but many people continue to espouse that it costs more to house than to have capital punishment.

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#62

11-05-2002, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by GotGauge
I gots an Idea,
everyone go out buy a gun,
Open all the jails, Letem run free,
see someone breaking in your house,
Give them the justice they deserve...
So basicaly if caught red handed....

No I am not serious about that above,
but, most people against anything
has not had anything happen to them...

You go from one extreme to the other...can't there be a middle ground?

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Fletch XXX

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#63

11-05-2002, 10:59 AM

Found a Los Angeles page.

http://www.worldpolicy.org/americas/dp/dp-cost.html

So it fluctuates with every state, but yes it does cost mroe to house them.

I was wrong.

See, all I wanted was the numbers.

"In Los Angeles County, the total cost of capital punishment is $2,087,926.
In Los Angeles County, the total cost of life imprisonment without possibility of parole is $1,448,935."

" The incarceration of an inmate sentenced to life imprisonment generally costs about $821,613. "

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SleazyDream

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#64

11-05-2002, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX

I asked because you as well as the other guy claimed I am incorrect. If I am, show me, I wont deny it. I just asked for proof.

And you still cant prove me otherwise. So shut the fuck up.

hummm

http://www.dnai.com/~mwood/deathpen.html#Costs

am I allowed to speak now???? I majored in criminology on my B.A. - I havn't looked at the stuff in 10 years since I graduated but I can assure you that if you were worth 5 mins I could dig up a ton of data like the link above to suppot what I've been saying. it's costs a LOT more to kill someone than to keep them in jail for life.

dumb redneck

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#65

11-05-2002, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by GotGauge

No I am not serious about that above,
but, most people against anything
has not had anything happen to them...

You're wrong on that one! My best friend was savagely raped by 3 men last year...I was there at the hospital EVERYDAY during her recovery...She can never have children because of this incident. And I still feel the same way about the death penalty.

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eroswebmaster

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#66

11-05-2002, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX
hehehe this is how much Idaho criminals cost.

"The average inmate cost per day at the Department's prisons was $55.33 for fiscal year 2002 (which ended June 30, 2002). The average inmate cost per day at the community work centers is $43.64. The average offender cost per day for someone on probation or parole is $3.80."

Thats 20 grand a year per criminal and over 1 million for 50 years.

Funny.

Well in my opinion I think everyone who serves time should have to pay for it in someway or another...they should have to work...the streets of your community and/or state should never be dirty...there is something we can do other than just killing them.

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Fletch XXX

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#67

11-05-2002, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by SleazyDream

dumb redneck

You live in Canadas Alabama dude, I live in Hollywood.

Whos the frucking redneck?

hahah

Last edited by Fletch XXX; 11-05-2002, 11:01 AM.

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GotGauge

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#68

11-05-2002, 11:00 AM

what I said above was a joke,
But for going to one extreme to another, isn't true..
I am for the death penalty,
and with that joke above, I am saying I believe Most criminals
will go a crime again, and get shot, so thus inacting the death penalty...

If you don't understand, sorry, my thoughts are out there sometimes..

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SleazyDream

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#69

11-05-2002, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by theking

Thank you. There are many more soucres of info. I have seen this very subject debated on TV hundreds of times since I was old enough to watch TV and understand what was being said. It makes one wonder how anyone could be ignorant about this subject but many people continue to espouse that it costs more to house than to have capital punishment.

in retrospect

We have to remember that there is NOTHING common about commen sense. It hurts dealing with idiots sometimes but an idiot doesn't know that he's an idiot and usually gets mad when he finds out the truth.

This dog, is dog, a dog, good dog, way dog, to dog, keep dog, an dog, idiot dog, busy dog, for dog, 20 dog, seconds dog!

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theking

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#70

11-05-2002, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX
hehehe this is how much Idaho criminals cost.

"The average inmate cost per day at the Department's prisons was $55.33 for fiscal year 2002 (which ended June 30, 2002). The average inmate cost per day at the community work centers is $43.64. The average offender cost per day for someone on probation or parole is $3.80."

Thats 20 grand a year per criminal and over 1 million for 50 years.

Funny.

$20,000 per year is about the average national cost to house an inmate, although some high securtiy housing units can cost as much as $50,000 per year. The cost to charge, try, convict, and ultimately execute is higher than housing.

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#71

11-05-2002, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX

You live in Canadas Alabama dude, I live in Hollywood.

Whos the frucking redneck?

hahah

WOAH! I happen to be in Canada too!

Last edited by Funbrunette; 11-05-2002, 11:04 AM.

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SleazyDream

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#72

11-05-2002, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX

You live in Canadas Alabama dude, I live in Hollywood.

Whos the frucking redneck?

hahah

physical location doesn't change the tanline on your neck.

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#73

11-05-2002, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by theking

$20,000 per year is about the average national cost to house an inmate, although some high securtiy housing units can cost as much as $50,000 per year. The cost to charge, try, convict, and ultimately execute is higher than housing.

I would like to know if added in that cost is
all the medical, dental, stupid lawsuits, education, so on...

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#74

11-05-2002, 11:06 AM

Okay fine, so you are against the death penalty. That's cool... I defend your right to your opinion. However, I'd like to know what the alternatives are.

You say, "Lock 'em up, don't rehab them, don't let them get an eduction." Fine. But why should I, and other taxpayers like me, have to support them? They aren't members of my family, I have no obligation to them, and frankly I resent the fact that they live better than most of the people I know... and all they had to do was break the law to get there!

My feeling on the matter is that ANYONE who is put in jail for anything, no matter how "minor" an offense, should damned well have to earn their keep. Bring back the chain gangs, the farms, the quarry workers. Or would you consider THAT "cruel and unusual punishment" also? The whole idea behind jails and prisons is to make people PAY for their crimes! To my way of thinking, that means that making them a "little uncomfortable" is NOT a bad thing.

Why should these people, who have broken the law and, in some cases, infringed upon the rights, life, and safety of others, be allowed to sit in a cell with cable TV, Nautlius equipment, a better law library than Harvard (something they are "entitled to" by law, mind you), and three squares a day while people like you and I bust our asses and pay taxes at a hideous rate to support them? That's not punishment (unless you happen to be a taxpayer, of course... we get to literally pay for crimes we didn't commit!)! For most of these guys, that's like a vacation at the Ritz!

Not killing them isn't the answer. Revamping our system and making them PAY for their crimes, even if it means losing their own lives or have to work their asses off every day, IS the answer, IMO.

And to address your initial topic, I do believe the death penalty is appropriate in certain cases, but I don't really see it as a "deterent" anymore. Hell, when a CONFESSED serial killer like Ted Bundy can drag shit out in the courts for 12 years, I fail to see how that is going to deter anyone from doing anything. Yes, I believe in "an eye for an eye"... but I also believe that we need to make DAMNED sure we've got the right guy before we stick the needle in.

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#75

11-05-2002, 11:08 AM

gotgauge... rent paradise lost

it's about these guys.
http://www.wm3.org/

You'll see all the hysteria that surrounds murder sometimes.

The need to just find anyone to exact punishment/revenge.

No physical evidence tying them to these crimes.

No weapon found.

Hell no blood was even found where the bodies were discovered.

The prosecution used scare tactics to get these guys convicted...Damien Echols practiced wiccan at some point...wore all black so they became "devil worshippers" who preyed upon little children.

But yet one of the boys stepdad gave the camera crew his knife that they turned over to authorities and lo and behold blood that matched both the stepson and the stepdad were on that knife...and then when you watch the follow up to the documentary the little boys mother just happens to die unexpectedly while laying in bed with the guy and they discover teeth marks on the boys body but can't get a bite impression from the step dad because he at first claims his teeth were knocked out...but come to find out he had them all pulled.

The stepdad eventually ends up in prison on some drug charge.

But yet these guys are still in prison and one is on death row and will more than likely be executed.

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Fletch XXX

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#76

11-05-2002, 11:09 AM

Entertainment lawyers are the worst lawyers on the planet.

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#77

11-05-2002, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by SleazyDream

in retrospect

We have to remember that there is NOTHING common about commen sense. It hurts dealing with idiots sometimes but an idiot doesn't know that he's an idiot and usually gets mad when he finds out the truth.

Being an idiot and being ignorant about a subject are two different things, but speaking out about a subject when you are ignorant of the facts does tend to make one appear to be an idiot. When the facts are presented and one does not accept the facts then one does become an idiot.

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#78

11-05-2002, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Wenchy
Okay fine, so you are against the death penalty. That's cool... I defend your right to your opinion. However, I'd like to know what the alternatives are.

You say, "Lock 'em up, don't rehab them, don't let them get an eduction." Fine. But why should I, and other taxpayers like me, have to support them? They aren't members of my family, I have no obligation to them, and frankly I resent the fact that they live better than most of the people I know... and all they had to do was break the law to get there!

My feeling on the matter is that ANYONE who is put in jail for anything, no matter how "minor" an offense, should damned well have to earn their keep. Bring back the chain gangs, the farms, the quarry workers. Or would you consider THAT "cruel and unusual punishment" also? The whole idea behind jails and prisons is to make people PAY for their crimes! To my way of thinking, that means that making them a "little uncomfortable" is NOT a bad thing.

Why should these people, who have broken the law and, in some cases, infringed upon the rights, life, and safety of others, be allowed to sit in a cell with cable TV, Nautlius equipment, a better law library than Harvard (something they are "entitled to" by law, mind you), and three squares a day while people like you and I bust our asses and pay taxes at a hideous rate to support them? That's not punishment! For most of these guys, that's like a vacation at the Ritz!

Not killing them isn't the answer. Revamping our system and making them PAY for their crimes, even if it means losing their own lives, IS the answer, IMO.

And to address your initial topic, I do believe the death penalty is appropriate in certain cases, but I don't really see it as a "deterent" anymore. Hell, when a CONFESSED serial killer like Ted Bundy can drag shit out in the courts for 12 years, I fail to see how that is going to deter anyone from doing anything. Yes, I believe in "an eye for an eye"... but I also believe that we need to make DAMNED sure we've got the right guy before we stick the needle in.

Well, you pay taxes right? See it as a way to keep the streets clean. I strongly feel that if the jails were less lenient the cost would go down! personally I have no problem paying for people to be in jail! I have bigger issues paying for people that sit on their asses all day and refuse to work!!! (but that's another topic....)

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SleazyDream

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#79

11-05-2002, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by theking

Being an idiot and being ignorant about a subject are two different things, but speaking out about a subject when you are ignorant of the facts does tend to make one appear to be an idiot. When the facts are presented and one does not accept the facts then one does become an idiot.

i never said they was anything wrong with being ignorant - but our favorite redneck did speak on something he knew nothing about with authority - thus an idiot.

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Fletch XXX

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#80

11-05-2002, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by SleazyDream

i never said they was anything wrong with being ignorant - but our favorite redneck did speak on something he knew nothing about with authority - thus an idiot.

Someone screaming about their degree who cannot spell looks way more than an idiot.

hahahah

Learn to spell then lie about your degree.

Liar.

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#81

11-05-2002, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX
Found a Los Angeles page.

http://www.worldpolicy.org/americas/dp/dp-cost.html

So it fluctuates with every state, but yes it does cost mroe to house them.

I was wrong.

See, all I wanted was the numbers.

"In Los Angeles County, the total cost of capital punishment is $2,087,926.
In Los Angeles County, the total cost of life imprisonment without possibility of parole is $1,448,935."

" The incarceration of an inmate sentenced to life imprisonment generally costs about $821,613. "

You meant to say it costs less to house them.

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#82

11-05-2002, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Funbrunette

Well, you pay taxes right? See it as a way to keep the streets clean. I strongly feel that if the jails were less lenient the cost would go down! personally I have no problem paying for people to be in jail! I have bigger issues paying for people that sit on their asses all day and refuse to work!!! (but that's another topic....)

Well I have a HUGE problem with paying for people to be in jail. That's MY money, and I have about 250 places it could be better spent in ways that would be much more beneficial to myself and my family. Make them earn their way! In the immortal words of Baretta, "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

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#83

11-05-2002, 11:17 AM

Yes.

heheh sorry.

least its mispelled.

;)

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#84

11-05-2002, 11:17 AM

For Wenchy and those who think prison is some sort of "resort"...I too feel these guys should have to earn their keep.

But to think that just because they have cable t.v. they are living it up at the hilton...lol...you're diluted.

Since when is ass rape a part of the Hilton experience...since when is tossing someone's salad something you'd sign up for while on vacation?

How often do you have to worry about getting shanked while visiting the harvard law library?

I know...I know...they all deserve it right?

hell fucking no.

That's not what our prisons should be about...if you do the crime you do the time...that is your punishment.

The simple fact is right now our prisons turn out worse criminals than they were when they got in there int he first place.

If you want your money to count...then ensure that they are being rehabiliated.

I'm going to be asked to prove this but I can't...this was discussed on one of the talking head shows so I don't have a link.

Anyway the statement was that once someone has been in prison at least 3 times even if they weren't before they are now a SEXUAL OFFENDER.

In other words upon entering a prison they get raped and then in turn they eventually rape...they continue to do this and are eventually released back into society as a full fledged sexual offender who may continue to offend on the outside.

And chances are these guys will be released eventually.

So...with that in mind...make your tax dollars count and see that they are rehabilitated.

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redshift

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#85

11-05-2002, 11:18 AM

Kill em all and let GOD sort em out
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Wenchy

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#86

11-05-2002, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by eroswebmaster
For Wenchy and those who think prison is some sort of "resort"...I too feel these guys should have to earn their keep.

But to think that just because they have cable t.v. they are living it up at the hilton...lol...you're diluted.

Since when is ass rape a part of the Hilton experience...since when is tossing someone's salad something you'd sign up for while on vacation?

How often do you have to worry about getting shanked while visiting the harvard law library?

I know...I know...they all deserve it right?

hell fucking no.

That's not what our prisons should be about...if you do the crime you do the time...that is your punishment.

The simple fact is right now our prisons turn out worse criminals than they were when they got in there int he first place.

If you want your money to count...then ensure that they are being rehabiliated.

I'm going to be asked to prove this but I can't...this was discussed on one of the talking head shows so I don't have a link.

Anyway the statement was that once someone has been in prison at least 3 times even if they weren't before they are now a SEXUAL OFFENDER.

In other words upon entering a prison they get raped and then in turn they eventually rape...they continue to do this and are eventually released back into society as a full fledged sexual offender who may continue to offend on the outside.

And chances are these guys will be released eventually.

So...with that in mind...make your tax dollars count and see that they are rehabilitated.

I'm sticking with my original statement. You work these guys so damned hard all day that they're too tired to eat dinner, and I can just about guarantee you they won't be raping, shanking, or generally creating rukus. They sit around all day with nothing to do but think up ways to f*ck with other people... boredom is NOT a good thing for criminals to have lots of, IMO.

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SleazyDream

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#87

11-05-2002, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX

Someone screaming about their degree who cannot spell looks way more than an idiot.

hahahah

Learn to spell then lie about your degree.

Liar.

idiots will always look for ways to disprove that they are an idiot by changing the subject- it's the first tell tale sign that you are dealing with an idiot.

This dog, is dog, a dog, good dog, way dog, to dog, keep dog, an dog, idiot dog, busy dog, for dog, 20 dog, seconds dog!

Now read without the word dog.
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Fletch XXX

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#88

11-05-2002, 11:22 AM

As I am still reading info on things.

Heres some more numbers.

Ole GW had a high price for life too.

"A study done by the Sacramento Bee argued that California would save $90 million per year if it were to abolish the death penalty.

The average cost of a capital trial in Texas is $2.3 million--three times the cost to incarcerate an individual for 40 years.

The average cost of a capital trial in Florida is $3.2 million. "

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Funbrunette

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#89

11-05-2002, 11:23 AM

Well, we could debate about this for hours and hours...I said my piece and I'm sticking with it! Maybe one day we will live in a perfect world, but in the mean time we have to watch our backs...and hope that crime rates are going to go down and not up!

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Fletch XXX

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#90

11-05-2002, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by SleazyDream

idiots will always look for ways to disprove that they are an idiot by changing the subject- it's the first tell tale sign that you are dealing with an idiot.

Ya know what means the most in this Sleazy?

Is what you and I really are.

Look at yourself. All you are, are your accomplishments.

As you sit here and piss like a real idiot.

I am surfing info on the subject and trying to expand myself and what I know.

I admitted I was incorrect, and I am on my way to having what I didnt have before. The truth.

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redshift

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#91

11-05-2002, 11:29 AM

I haven't read this entire thread but my personal opionon on the death penality is that it's not much of a deterent unless it's made public - hang em in the court square I say
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iwantchixx

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#92

11-05-2002, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX

Thats more cruel and degrading than what Jails are.

have you forgotten jail is supposed to be a rehabilitation?

How can you sit there and say deny them the rights to rehab, but you are against killing them?

Prisons are supposed to clean our criminals not a place to lock them up and 'forget about them'

if you really think they rehabilitate i have a swamp land in florida to sell you. it's liek this. Jail birds have the bible in one hand claiming they have been saved. And a crack pipe in the other..... when they get released, I'm sure the crack pipe will be in both hands
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cherrylula

lol

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#93

11-05-2002, 11:30 AM

Yeah well the cost of a bullet precisely aimed at the back of someone's head is rather cheap.

Why not take Justice into your own hands? Eye for an eye.

And obviously the death penalty costs more, because more assholes are involved in the case no doubt. I'm sorry people are wrongfully accused, but what the hell were they doing in the first place to wind up in that situation? Maybe I am overlooking something?

Last edited by cherrylula; 11-05-2002, 11:31 AM.
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Fletch XXX

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#94

11-05-2002, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by iwantchixx

if you really think they rehabilitate i have a swamp land in florida to sell you. it's liek this. Jail birds have the bible in one hand claiming they have been saved. And a crack pipe in the other..... when they get released, I'm sure the crack pipe will be in both hands

I didnt say they rehabilitate.

I said, they were 'supposed to.'

;)

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GotGauge

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#95

11-05-2002, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by Funbrunette

Well, you pay taxes right? See it as a way to keep the streets clean. I strongly feel that if the jails were less lenient the cost would go down! personally I have no problem paying for people to be in jail! I have bigger issues paying for people that sit on their asses all day and refuse to work!!! (but that's another topic....)

No, not keeping the streets clean,
The prisions are full of Death row, and Life in Prision people, who will never get out.
I say If the evidence proves ( the reason they are in there), then death. Make room for the lessor criminal who we can then try to reabilitate back in to society.. ( yeah right) But it is set up that way...

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Sly_RJ

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#96

11-05-2002, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX

Then show me the facts on how much it costs, I will believe you.

I've done the research for a paper a couple years back, government class. Execution can easily cost upwards of a million dollars, plus some. Life sentence, just say 30-40 years, costs around $250k.

If you're desperate for numbers, I'll go see what I can dig up.

But the whole "cheaper for tax payers to kill" theory is incredibly false. Ever since I learned the truth, it drives me absolutely crazy when someone uses expenses to justify the death penalty.

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eroswebmaster

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#97

11-05-2002, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by iwantchixx

if you really think they rehabilitate i have a swamp land in florida to sell you. it's liek this. Jail birds have the bible in one hand claiming they have been saved. And a crack pipe in the other..... when they get released, I'm sure the crack pipe will be in both hands

He didn't say they do rehabilitate...he said that's what they are supposed to be for.

Right now prisons just turn out better and/or more aggressive criminals.

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redshift

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#98

11-05-2002, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Sly_RJ

I've done the research for a paper a couple years back, government class. Execution can easily cost upwards of a million dollars, plus some. Life sentence, just say 30-40 years, costs around $250k.

If you're desperate for numbers, I'll go see what I can dig up.

But the whole "cheaper for tax payers to kill" theory is incredibly false. Ever since I learned the truth, it drives me absolutely crazy when someone uses expenses to justify the death penalty.

rope is cheap
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GotGauge

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#99

11-05-2002, 11:32 AM

But yes, the welfare system is in need of house cleaning as well..
That is the second biggest thing that gets me going...

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Bobo

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#100

11-05-2002, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by toodamnfli
fry em...i say once a month have national death penalty day. Line everyone up on death row and kill em one at a time

I'm surprised Toodamfli! With the percentage of executed who are innocent, you still see a place for the death penalty?
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