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Any updates ?Originally posted by rayadp05Comment
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do I get something for longest thread of the week?
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latest conversation: they now say this includes all ddeu chargebacks for 2006, 2007 and 2008, not just 2008 like they said initially. to my question how come there are so many more chargebacks for ddeu she said there was a loophole that got passed around the internet so a lot of people were abusing it. apparently for 3 years they didn't notice! still nothing matches the transactions in their own reporting in control center, she will talk to her supervisor to see why. she is new so she doesn't know..... now they WILL take verotel fees off the amount, they didn't initially. i guess you have to ask for it. imagine that, according to the original amount i would have to pay back 14% more than what i received cause i am covering their fees as well. it's a joke.
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I am pretty pissed about these dipshitslatest conversation: they now say this includes all ddeu chargebacks for 2006, 2007 and 2008, not just 2008 like they said initially. to my question how come there are so many more chargebacks for ddeu she said there was a loophole that got passed around the internet so a lot of people were abusing it. apparently for 3 years they didn't notice! still nothing matches the transactions in their own reporting in control center, she will talk to her supervisor to see why. she is new so she doesn't know..... now they WILL take verotel fees off the amount, they didn't initially. i guess you have to ask for it. imagine that, according to the original amount i would have to pay back 14% more than what i received cause i am covering their fees as well. it's a joke.
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So we just got an email which I will detail in another posting.
The thing is that there is no way to really verify what is going on, and if any of this really happened or not. One would think that most companies would just write down such a fuck up rather than even admit it.
We can't even tell if their system is up half the time, and now this.
So where is this with you BOSS1? Have you made any headway?Comment
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I've just got precisely the same email - word for word. They were always the bottom of the cascade for me, so it's peanuts. But still quite possibly one of the most unprofessional balls up I've seen from a processor.Comment
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Add another to the fucked by Verotel list, ATTENTION: Stay the fuck away from Verotel!Comment
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Could we get some kind of boycott going so Verotel could REALLY understand how much of /a fuckup this is to do to clients and that they should just cut their losses and move on? 3 FUCKING YEARS OF ERRORS, UNBELIEVABLE! I should be speechless.Comment
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i said i will not post here in three months, but i must in this thread cause i am also waiting for answer where are my stats and where is my stats history! i am at zero hits last few days and my stats area is showing nothing. i got no email and nobody contacted me about removing links or upgrading account, that is really some fucked practice imho! give me answer verotel or gfy!
i am really pissed ...
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i am already boycotting them in the sense that i removed them from all my sites since they were not the primary processor anyway. i am debating whether to cancel all verotel members and email them to sign up through ccbill instead. verotel haven't started deducting anything yet from my rebills so once the rebills disappear all they have is my holdback which is shrinking every day. if there isn't anything left to take out of my account, you think they will go to court?Comment
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Same DDEU plus now corrupt database
I had the same problem with DDEU billing, exactly same e-mail notification.
Finally they agreed not to charge their commission, but saying that anyway it was normal for me to refund money I was not supposed to have received !!!
This is just rubbish, use of my site was given free to hundreds of persons, during 3 years, by Verotel which did not perform any work.
I also complained about duplicate charges, for which we have to pay the fees, or for the lack of control of the names or address of the members.
They pretend there is no way to avoid duplicate charges, or to check this data, so why do they say that their system is secure and can prevent fraud...
Now, since nearly one week, I receive notifications of renewals or new approved transactions, but dated back 2008 !!!
I sent them at least 20 messages to tell them their system had problems, probably corrupt database, but no way. I only got automated answers full of old subscription data, or error notifications like mailer-daemon php script errors !
I decided to call them on the phone. 24/7 according to their site ? Nope, 09.00 to 17.30 dutch time. In case of emergency dial 0031 20 320 88 33 ...
OK, I call the number, and what I got is a woman, probably in the kitchen, children crying in the background, telling you : sorry, office is closed, call back tomorrow !!!
I think that Verotel has grown to much, and is now going out of control.
It's sad, but we may have to find a better processor...Comment
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I just a call from Sarah. First I knew about it. It depends how much you have to lose.
I remember the IBill fall. Cost me 17K.Comment
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Add us to the growing list of those recently contacted by Sarah from Verotel.
Same shit - they're claiming we owe them over $700 in DDEU transactions due to a fuck-up by their "partners".
We received a phone call from her earlier in the day (we weren't in the office - she left a message).Comment
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Bump for a Verotel rep to show up with some answers.
This reeks like iBill - all over again.
Ya'll remember the relationship between First Data and iBill? Just plug in the name of the German bank here.Comment
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We just got the call from Sarah at Verotel also this morning
We were overpaid over $7000 apparently. They are not even our primary processor (CCBill/Epoch/GXBill/Verotel) in that order
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got the call today ..... so is there anybody who got a way out of this???Comment
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Let them know how much of a mistake this type of move is business wise and that you're going to boycott if they do this. I mean if they ARE going under this is surely the nail in the coffin. If they aren't then this could be the start of the end once this nasty information gets passed around.Comment
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Bump for impending shitstorm.Comment
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Put me on the list too ... email from Sarah ... taking back $800
... I am switching my Verotel sites to CCBill. I had 3 sites already using CCBill, now they will get all 8 of my sites. That is my response. 
Maybe everyone should respond the same way ... It is a shame. Verotel was a great way to launch my first sites 6 years ago when I didn't have/ want to pay the VISA charges.
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Bump for Verotel to represent.Comment
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Just got an email from Sarah, reminding me that I still owe this money
Not sure what they expect me to do, I guess to give my approval for them to deduct the money from my holdback/rebills? I am getting checks ok and they haven't deducted anything yet. The amounts are shrinking since I removed the verotel signup link from all sites, so its only the rebills. I guess I'll ignore them and see what they do about it. if they start deducting anything, I will cancel all remaining members so there will be nothing to deduct.
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You got money that didn't belong to you, so you should give it back. Not sure why everyone is kicking off their kimbies about this. I had to pay back this money that wasnt mine to start off with, no big deal. Why should I keep this money???Just got an email from Sarah, reminding me that I still owe this money Not sure what they expect me to do, I guess to give my approval for them to deduct the money from my holdback/rebills? I am getting checks ok and they haven't deducted anything yet. The amounts are shrinking since I removed the verotel signup link from all sites, so its only the rebills. I guess I'll ignore them and see what they do about it. if they start deducting anything, I will cancel all remaining members so there will be nothing to deduct.Comment
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Because the deal was that they will charge people for access to my sites, not give it away for free. I provided content, bandwidth, support etc for those members so I did my part of the deal. If Verotel wasn't collecting money as they should have for 3 years (and didn't even notice!) than that is their own screwup and they have no right to pass the cost onto me. If they accidentally put some money into my account I would gladly pay it back, but that's not the case here, this is the money I earned.Comment
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i would still be very interested who their "partner" was who did the screwupComment
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Semantics.
Bounced checks, and charge backs all work the same regardless of billing company.
The surfer had gotten access to your site for however long, and then their check bounced, or charged back their card after ripping off your member's area. This is no different. You were paid money you should not have been paid. So you were over paid. Clerical error or not.
I am sure you do not chase down every bounced check, or charge back on your CCB member. Why should Verotel be held to any higher of a standard?
They fucked up. They are working with you. You were over paid. Those are the facts.Last edited by Barefootsies; 04-12-2009, 10:47 AM.Comment
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They probably are waiting to see how you plan to structure your pay back. If you do not respond, then I am sure they will just keep your 6 month rolling reserve, or hold back. After all, that is what it is there for in the first place.Just got an email from Sarah, reminding me that I still owe this money Not sure what they expect me to do, I guess to give my approval for them to deduct the money from my holdback/rebills? I am getting checks ok and they haven't deducted anything yet. The amounts are shrinking since I removed the verotel signup link from all sites, so its only the rebills. I guess I'll ignore them and see what they do about it. if they start deducting anything, I will cancel all remaining members so there will be nothing to deduct.
Sounds like you are quite a business man.
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Three reasons you are way too easy on Verotel:
1. The chargebacks wouldn't have happened in the first place if it wasn't for Verotel. Those were not regular chargebacks, those people were exploiting a vulnerability in Verotel's system (or their partner's but that's their problem), that's why almost 100% of ddeu transactions are chargebacks. Sarah said that exact thing
2. Other billing companies detect chargebacks around the time they occur (and cancel those members immediately), they don't allow them to continue with their membership for 3 years and use a shitload of my bandwidth for free
3. Apart from hiring the poor girl Sarah to apologize to everybody, they made no serious effort to acknowledge their part of the blame. Apart from 20% reduction (which includes their own fees of 14% so its really 6%) they are still sticking to expecting every webmaster to shoulder almost all of the cost. If they at least offered 50/50 that would be something. I can see a more serious company like CCBill writing off the entire amount if this happened to them
What if the holdback is in the region of $500 (and shrinking since I didn't use Verotel for any new signups in months) and the amount owed is $3k? What then, smart guy?They probably are waiting to see how you plan to structure your pay back. If you do not respond, then I am sure they will just keep your 6 month rolling reserve, or hold back. After all, that is what it is there for in the first place.
Sounds like you are quite a business man.
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I have been through these things with a handful of processors and companies in the decade I have been doing business online. Some still around. Some not. I am familiar with the merchant bank, third party processor relationship. How it works. Where the weak points are, and where the break down in the chain are, or can happen.
I am not excusing anyone. It is an inconvenience to everyone. However, Verotel is at the mercy of their merchant bank(s) and agreements. To their credit, they are attempting to work with people. I can think of the other times I have had to go with similar, there was no "working with you". They either went out of business. You lost your money. Or had to wait 6+ months for errors to be fixed and get some percentage of your back owed cash.
As for your last remark, then I suppose they will do whatever their T.O.S. said they could do, and you agreed to, when you signed up with them. So if they have to sue you to recoup the money, then I suppose that is what they have to do.Comment
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yeah how can a error where a partner undercollects money continue for 3 years? There is no excuse for this when your business is to process payments.
My bet is someone installed a virus that took a 1/2 penny from every transaction rounded down, & it took 3 years to discover the glitch.Comment
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Barefootsies, these retards are trying to tell me I suddenly owe them over $11,000 because of a mistake they failed to notice for 3 years. I don't care if I sound out of line or seem like I don't understand the situation... it is fucking BEYOND ridiculous. And at a time like this? I simply don't have words for this level of stupidity.. a real business would except their mistake and take the loss.. go out of business.. or whatever I don't really care, this is just ludicrous.Last edited by Jakez; 04-12-2009, 04:00 PM.Comment
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An excerpt from our latest email from "Sarah" at Verotel:
In our case, nearly 100% of all DDEU transactions made over the course of the past three years have been canceled/bounced/refunded by the merchant bank. I have great difficulty believing 100% resulted in chargebacks. At this stage I'm suspecting either the merchant bank or Verotel isn't reporting all the facts.Unfortunately the initial development of this issue began in 2006, as
purchasers accessed websites with viable sales, then canceled the
purchase through their banking site, creating a false payment in our
database. Our procedure is forwarded on the prepayment of purchase to
our clients. In short, you have been paid out as the clients have
initially paid. It´s is that the clients have gone back to their
accounts and canceled the bank transaction shortly after payment. The
transition to cancellation was not relayed to us in appropriate time
thus creating a the scenario we are attending currently to. We have
provided transcripts of bounced transactions, so as you have
documentation of offending accounts.
I still say this smells like the iBill fiasco a few years back. I'd wager the (German) banking partner simply isn't paying Verotel for the transaction and withholding the funds for some reason.Comment
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Programs effected by this should send an invoice to Verotel for the costs of the member on your end. If they want you to refund earnings due to their fuckup, they should pay you for your overheads used in good faith.
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Dear Mr. Shake Y'er Bon Bon,
This email serves to further explain the DDEU situation.
Over the past year you have been an active user of Direct Debit EU processing with our company, and we thank you for that business.
We have recently been confronted with reversals and as a consequence of that our partners in processing have withheld information regarding bounced transactions. The most obvious ramification is the unfortunate news that, we have in turn we have overpaid you on transactions that were never settled to us. In simplicity, we have over paid you out funds that were not settled to us. When you are looking for more detailed information regarding this DDEU matter, it can be located in your control center, through my money.
For your particular sites, this total comes to $(removed) USD. We realize this is quite a large amount, and are extremely upset with our processing partners, whom have allowed this number to grow to this size. The next step is to find a way in which we can settle up this amount with you in a timely fashion.
Our team has reviewed your account and arranged to deduct an additional $ (removed) . This deduction reflects Verotel´s commitment and consideration of our client´s individual circumstances. This deducted amounts reflects Verotel´s administration charges since the development of this issue.
The total balance now stands at $ (removed)
We propose that in order for your ongoing revenue to be minimally impacted, we therefore suggest to deduct the outstanding amount from your hold back account. Currently this amount is balanced at $(removed) USD . Furthermore to finalize this situation, the outstanding amount reflecting $(removed) of funds will be allocated in reasonable payments from your next [5] consecutive invoices.
Transcripts of the bounced transactions are currently accessible from your Control Center. Access through Sales, Credits, then choosing dates along with the DDEU payment method. The information you requested should be available to you via this portal.
Please be advised that the dates of transactions are recorded to reflect the date of data entry and not date the transaction occurred. Please expand your search of transactions to include the current date to January 5, 2009 (as the data has been uploaded and saved to those particular corresponding dates).
This represents your notification that the the DDEU Return information has been uploaded to your account.
Although we have the right under the terms and conditions of the processing agreement with you to do this unilaterally, we want to discuss with you what works best, and how we can get through this with the least amount of pain. I also want to ensure you that we have put in place additional controls that will prevent this from happening again in the future. Its just a really unfortunate situation that we need to resolve and work through ? and your understanding and cooperation is appreciated.
Please respond with a confirmation or constructive feedback regarding a way to reach a mutual agreement.
If personal contact is appreciated, please send me an alternative phone number where you can be reached.
Thank you in advance and apologies for the inconvenience caused.
Respectfully,
Sarah
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Sarah Proulx
Stichting Beheer Derdengelden Verza
Verotel Merchant Services BV
Singel 540
1017 AZ Amsterdam
The Netherlands
Tel: +31-(0)20-3200638
Email: [email protected]
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I asked this same question over the phone, she said that the word spread that this is the way to get free access to sites and a lot of people were abusing it so that's why such high percentage of chargebacks.
Please somebody ask if you talk to her how does she explain such a high % of chargebacks for DDEU transactions and see if she says the same thing.
It sounds very fishy to me. I looked over the transactions affected and I don't see any increase in amount of chargebacks from 06 to 08 which I would expect as more and more people found out about it.
I also don't see the pattern I would expect to see if those people knew they were getting site access for free. They join the site, cancel, that's about it, sometimes join another site, then cancel that after a while etc. Pretty normal pattern. If they knew it was free, why not join all the sites (I have several sites with the same fetish) and stay member as long as you can, since you know its free.Comment
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verotel sucks balls.Comment
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btw - these so called DDEU transactions make about 80% of the sales volume in Germany (mostly because credit cards are not very popular). while the general chargeback ratio with these is higher than with credit cards, it's mostly because of underfunded bank accounts, not because the user initiates a chargeback. when i asked my german clients about their chargeback ratio i mostly heard something around 5%, 10% in the worst cases - again: because the user did not have enough money in his account, not because he cancelled. far away from the nearly 100% Verotel claims. such a high chargeback ratio is impossible, even with this billing method. so if they claim anything higher than 10% or maybe even 15% of the transactions failed because the USER initiated it it's simply a lie.
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Good feedback.btw - these so called DDEU transactions make about 80% of the sales volume in Germany (mostly because credit cards are not very popular). while the general chargeback ratio with these is higher than with credit cards, it's mostly because of underfunded bank accounts, not because the user initiates a chargeback. when i asked my german clients about their chargeback ratio i mostly heard something around 5%, 10% in the worst cases - again: because the user did not have enough money in his account, not because he cancelled. far away from the nearly 100% Verotel claims. such a high chargeback ratio is impossible, even with this billing method. so if they claim anything higher than 10% or maybe even 15% of the transactions failed because the USER initiated it it's simply a lie.Comment
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That helps confirm my suspicions to an extent.btw - these so called DDEU transactions make about 80% of the sales volume in Germany (mostly because credit cards are not very popular). while the general chargeback ratio with these is higher than with credit cards, it's mostly because of underfunded bank accounts, not because the user initiates a chargeback. when i asked my german clients about their chargeback ratio i mostly heard something around 5%, 10% in the worst cases - again: because the user did not have enough money in his account, not because he cancelled. far away from the nearly 100% Verotel claims. such a high chargeback ratio is impossible, even with this billing method. so if they claim anything higher than 10% or maybe even 15% of the transactions failed because the USER initiated it it's simply a lie.
Interesting info - thanks for that.
We're still waiting for a follow-up reply from Verotel - hopefully with some additional info and answers that make sense.
If not, we'll be dropping them as soon as possible. They've shaken my confidence in them.Comment
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Keyword: THEY fucked up. Not him. It's their mistake, it's their responsibility. Suppose Verotel was your only processor, and let's say you made a down payment on a house etc with the money that you did your part to earn. Let's say you have some other bills and you rely on your steady income NOT decreasing in order to make your payments.
You're gonna live like a pauper to give Verotel a free pass on fucking up the only thing they're supposed to be doing for you? For fucking up their job? I don't think so.Comment
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It's simply not credible that every single DDEU user we have has charged back. I simply don't believe it and we have asked for a written and signed explanation rather than an email or a phone call. And what about the escrow and the Stichting Derdengelden? I thought our money was safe from exactly this sort of screw up.
This also has led us to re-examine a situation we faced in January 2008 when we had a flood of Verotel chargebacks. Every single client we emailed then had said they did not initiate any chargeback. So now I wonder if it was another banking screwup except that at that time we were paying chargeback fees on top of the refunded money.
Verotel was our primary processor on a number of sites for a long time and this has hit us hard. Not because of the refunded amount but because they have cast doubt on anyone running a Verotel program. And we had just managed to smooth feathers with our affiliates after the Korean Debit Card fiasco of a couple years back.Comment
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I feel you hoss.
I have been through similar bullshit in the past with iMonde and a handful of other companies over a decade. That is why I use more than one processor now. Experience.
I am not saying it doesn't suck. I am not saying it isn't fishy. I am not blindly defending anyone. I am simply pointing out he faces. If you/me/we were overpaid, regardless of fuck up (just like a bank giving you too much money through the ATM) they are going to fix it, and rightfully so.
That said, that DDEU is very fishy that 100% chargeback. More over when you add in that Shoplifter did follow up, and they said none charged back. It leads me to believe there was some kind of error, or bigger undisclosed issue, between Verotel and their merchant bank.Comment
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