American illusion called FREEDOM

here you go. your personal rant targeted at me is what gives you a good night sleep? Jesus..

just shows how touchy YOU are about subject FREEDOM

i am guessing that the next point will be that C-SPAN is a liberally biased propoganda machine that inserts subliminary messages into the televised coverage of House and Senate debates, votes and Congressional hearings on Capitol Hill, blinding people to what is "really being said"

the "rant" was about you and your ignorance which you wave higher and prouder than any American flag ever has been.

Do you have information that the rest of us aren't privy to? I believe when a madman amasses weapons of mass destruction and chemical weapons he is indeed a very real threat to the safety of the world. It seems that most other countries want to pussyfoot around and wait until he actually drops a nuke on someone before doing anything. George W. is just being proactive in wanting to take him out before anything terrible, like 9/11, happens. This country has problems, just like any other, but it's still a damn fine country to live in.

Point taken. Happens everywhere. The styles and the words etc only being different.

And of course the fact that an average American doesnt know shit about anything in the outside world compared to an average European

you must do quite a bit of thinking while you are herding your reindeer.

No you're a guy who only sees black and white. Black and white , right or wrong.

If you read the stuff more carefully you will notice that this is actually a discussion with many points and it'd be impossible to say what is right or wrong as fas ar some of the questions are concerned.

But you like to simplify, so get your good nite sleep and tell yourself I was "wrong" all the way

How did you deduce that Americans don't "know shit about anything in the outside world compared to an average European"? Could it be some more of your picking out the statements of a few Americans and applying your prejudice to the general American populace or is it just based upon your misinformed opinion?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mika


The simple fact that it is BEING USED. I don't think the people who make up this stuff in the goverment are so stupid that they didn't do their research and used something that wasn't proven to work
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



There you go. Based upon that statement it is apparent that you do not understand our government or the phsycic of the American people. Checkmate, game over.

I will repeat, checkmate, game over.

i dont need to feel like i am "right" to be able to sleep at night. thats the benifit of having a big cock and good looks.

The comment was based on my Finnish sense of humor

Well said man!!

Just kidding

I see, you have been jesting with us dumb backwoods Americans. Well, OK

There was this story.. fortunately it was just that, a "story" about Saddam "cooking" babies in some incinerators during the Gulf War... this was spoken about by Bush senior in speeches blah. But in the end.. there was no story.. some PR agency was given 10 million plus dollars by the US govt to cook this shit up (plus a load of other "stories"), as propaganda for the war to enrage the masses. They later admitted it was not true - but kinda shows the level of naivity and the lengths they will go for support, - not a surprise that the UN is a little leery

Yes... and the Japanese told their people that the US Marines would EAT their babies.

Btw... The UN is a joke!

*s* Nuthin like a good "baby" story to get folks going!

http://nytimes.com/2002/10/11/opinion/11KRIS.html

http://nytimes.com/2002/10/11/opinion/11KRUG.html

For those of you who feel current US policy is not financially motivated. Here's another quote from a Times article on current US plans for Iraq:

"It would put an American officer in charge of Iraq for a year or more while the United States and its allies searched for weapons and maintained Iraq's oil fields. "

full article:

http://nytimes.com/2002/10/11/international/11PREX.html

The perceptions of those outside of the US that our country is driven purely by greed are, at the moment, pretty much correct. Our freedoms as businesspeople and citizens are dictated almost entirely by the wealthy and powerful. Currently we do enjoy a good amount of leeway, but how long will it last?

C.

anyone who believes that a country does not act out of self interest first is pretty naive

i notice there is not much talk about Russia, China and France and their financial motivations for being against a regime change. Iraq owes Russia something like 8 Billion dollars and are major trading partners, same with china and France. A regime change could mean losing all that money.

anyone who thinks America is the center of all evil and their own government is squeeky clean is a complete fucking idiot. EVERY COUNTRY HAS BLOODY HANDS - the ONLY arguement can be whose hands are more bloody, whose hands are least bloody, who helped who get blood on whose hands are pretty rediculous arguements. For every bad thing you can say about the US (with the exception of bombing Japan) can be said about almost any other country in contemporary history.

all of which are pretty redundant arguements. the obligation of every countries government is to protect the interest of itself first as well as the safety, security and prosperity of its people.

its fine to question Bushs motivations... US motivations etc... but it does not change the fact that arguements about motivations are irrelevant to the facts of how this situation came to be.

mika loves the cock.

Cal ... what makes you think that planning for after an occupation has to be sinister? I hope to fuck they have a plan ... and it would have to include running the oil fields. And who the fuck you think they are going to in charge of running the country - a real estate management company?

Some good points in that editorial, but not much in the way of facts. What's your point?

people who complain about the US are like tree huggers complaining about logging. ... they are not exactly wiping their ass with leaves or printing their literature on tablets of dried goat shit.

if you dont like the US, thats fine. I understand and agree or sympathize with most peoples sentiments. I feel that people in the world have good reason to not like the US.

But you support the US in everyway at the same time... you can stop drinking Pepsi or Coke at any time... stop eating at McDonalds, stop buying Levis, stop watching American Movies, stop listening to American music, stop driving american cars, stop using american credit card processors, hosting companies and content providers...

take a principled stand and stick to it and stop babbling just to make yourself feel better by expressing yourself in a hollow and meaningless way.

people who complain about the US are like tree huggers complaining about logging. ... they are not exactly wiping their ass with leaves or printing their literature on tablets of dried goat shit.

if you dont like the US, thats fine. I understand and agree or sympathize with most peoples sentiments. I feel that people in the world have good reason to not like the US.

But you support the US in everyway at the same time... you can stop drinking Pepsi or Coke at any time... stop eating at McDonalds, stop buying Levis, stop watching American Movies, stop listening to American music, stop driving american cars, stop using american credit card processors, hosting companies and content providers...

take a principled stand and stick to it and stop babbling just to make yourself feel better by expressing yourself in such a hollow and meaningless way by expressing your anger, hatred or envy here.

I sooo agree! Blair sucks Bush's cock all the time

Porno,

Two of them are editorials, which are of course opinions from the traditionally left-wing Times. My point was that the motivations behind this sudden Iraqi obsession seem to have little to do with 'homeland security' and more to do with the almighty dollar.

Yes Russia and other countries have a lot at stake in Iraq, deals that will undoubtedly continue on and grow stronger in the wake of a possible invasion, since the US will definitely NOT financially support the new Iraq on its own. On the flipside, the US refused to vote on UN security council resolutions against Israel during the latest West Bank occupation.

I think you missed the point of the news article, which is that the US is now considering not only invading the country, setting extremely dangerous precedents in world policy, but also considering treating Iraq like post-WW2 Japan. The US occupying and running a muslim country for a year? The fallout could be cataclysmic.

C.

mika loves to see american big tit melon blonde getting triple penetrated by at least 4 black men

that's fucking FREEDOM
not SLAVERY

eh.. hatred? you taking this a bit too seriously? jeesus

Wow.
I guess my sources:
http://www.dumblaws.com/countries/co...ountry=England
were wrong. My bad. I wish you HAD read the rest of my post, though I know it was way too long... You might appreciate that I was posting those laws to show that every country has antiquated laws that are useless and odd.. I even posted some from my home state later to show it's all stupid! Actually, the law about not leaving packages unattended seems to be rooted in avoiding package bombs (though, I will admit to not having contacted Scotland Yard to verify the validity of this law) It makes more sense to me than the law in Elko, NV where you have to wear a mask if you go outdoors... Oh well eh?

Drew

Amen....

EVrything is restricted here. Stupid rules are eveywhere.

2 other ideas on freedom:

"Freedom without limits is just a word" - Terry Pratchett (feet of clay)

"Freedom without rules equals anarchy" - Jochen Shumann

Not trying to move anyone, just thought they were cool

drew

Just the existance of this thread proves that the world finds America to be a growing threat...

Listen to the Wu Tang -- you best protect ya neck...

I'm moving to NY -- I hope to God that our government has the shit tight... You live comfy at home far away from the "terror" and you're cool... But I'll tell you walking past those memorials -- your hair will stand on end... Everyone has to protect their interests... In the end this will just be another useless thread -- so get over it. You can't do shit anyway. You don't even know Saddam.

Yes Americans are different -- on the whole. But everyone is an individual -- and no borders can make a fuck all difference. I'm thankful for GFY to have world dialogue... I hope that the non-USA webmasters will speak up -- speak your mind. Don't let these big American egos scare you off. Even if your english is not so great -- I really appreciate and respect these people posting their opinion. We need fresh viewpoints that we don't get through our crappy mainstream American media... but most Americans are dumb asses anyway so the news needs to be dumbed down... That's one nice thing about NY -- the population is very educated and intelligent... and the news steps up to meet the demands of the population.

As for the whole "freedom" crap -- I totally agree. Freedom is really an arbitrary concept -- but the whole concept is driven home hard into the brain of almost every American -- hard-coded through the public school system via "Social Studies" classes, "History" "Government" etc. etc... where of course the Boston Tea Party comes up year after year for every American kid -- 12 fucking years in a row.

Blah anyway who cares. I just want some ass, some beer, and a little poetry now and then. Saddam wants to die a hero anyway -- he seems so proud -- just look at him -- let him have his wish. Hehe...

Yeah maybe some day I can chill with you guys in Turkey! Fewer rules sounds cool. I'll test the walls to make sure they are stone

I'm really confused as to why people are second guessing our stance on Iraq. Has everyone forgotten what Iraq did?

They invaded their smaller (and very rich) neighbor, raped their women, killed their men, looted everything, and then did their best to destroy the entire country as they got their asses kicked back to Iraq? Has everyone forgotten the burning oil rigs? Or the Iraqi convoy of Mercedes Benz filled with stolen television sets?

If someone walked up to your girlfriend, punched her in the face, and then raped her, would you just walk away?

The US is enforcing the UN resolutions with the no fly zones, and the fucking Iraqis are taking potshots at us. They are firing at us; That?s grounds for war right there.

Iraq should be lucky to enjoy what Japan has now after WWII. They would be a lot better off.

PS: Freedom is the right to be able to post on GFY. In some countries the general popular isn't even trusted to be on the Internet.

what i mean is in general. everything must be an "us against them" arguement and the core of problem in my opinion, is simply that we are all from very different cultures and have a very poor concept of each others cultures.

instead of understanding or trying or even wanting to understand the other side... people bicker about motivations, conspiracy theories and unrelated referrences to past world events of the last century... until someone out of desperation plays the "hitler card" or the "who saved whos ass in World War II" card... or starts making nasty remarks and the conversation takes a turn for the worst.

i have spent the last 6 years living in Eastern Europe. I understand fully why most Europeans dont like Americans and Americans in my opinion are completely ignorant about even that simple issue of how the world perceives America. America is very lost in itself and its own excesses and really out of touch with the international community. American people have an arrogance about them that they themselves do not even seem to be aware of.

But there is another side that gets lost in the arguement and that is that most Europeans are often just as ignorant as Americans about American culture and see nothing but media and Hollywood enhanced stereotypes of a life that does not really exist.

in my life, i have learned one thing about people. i used to believe that people were inherently different. as i grew older, i realized that people are inherently the same. right across the street from where you live is probably two small children, a brother and sister fighting over a small toy and arguing about who hit who first and who pulled who's hair... that same scenario is simultaneously being played out in every country.

it is governments that make people hate each other. it was two governments that made the Cold War happen... it was not the collective decision of 500,000,000 people to start hating each other. It is governments as well in my opinion that have a deep responsibility for international relations and peace and understanding between cultures and societies. I dont agree with Bush for example because he very abrasive and irresponsible in how he goes about things - Kyoto for example, Steel Tariffs with the EU, the Iraq thing etc. BUT that also does not relieve the responsibility of other world leaders to continue to encourage understanding and reach out.

What Europe does not understand is that America exists almost in a vacuum. the rest of the world is exposed to US movies, music and media and culture - yet we are almost not exposed to anything foreign (except Mr Bean and Monty Python ) There is no European Billboard Top 40 playing Scooter in English, Tic Tac Toe in German and Tarkan in Turkish. There are no dubbed films on TV or in Movie theaters.

what is ironic about many of the conversations here about Europe and America is the "us against them" attitude. Sadly, that is the attitude that perpetuates the very problem of understanding. If i want one of my models to listen to me or to work better, i start by telling her how beautiful she is and how pretty her smile is.. now she will listen to what i have to say. If i start the conversation by saying "look you dumb bitch" then i am the one creating the problem as well.

its not an issue of what was forgotten. you are talking about a middle east full of weak and unstable governments and monarchys facing collapse.. and the opinion of european countries who have known 2000 years of war, death, destruction, conquering and being conquered and have an almost reflexive tendancy to not fight at any cost.

Though Iraq is clearly in the wrong... you cant expect international support by beginning the conversation with: "this is what we are going to do and fuck you if you dont like it"

if someone doesn't agree with you, he's an idiot

if someone agrees with you, he's clever until he'll be proved idiot the first time he won't agree with you


bottom line, this board is full of idiots

Kinda funny a Finn would wonder why Americans consider Sadam a threat. If I remember my history correctly your country like many others didn't consider Hitler a threat and were going to let him have Poland and the Czech Republic. And then when he started grabbing France and other parts of Europe rather than fight him you were officially neutral while allowing Nazi troop movements across your land.

As for freedoms I don't recall you're having a right to bear arms. And I believe the majority of your paychecks go to taxes because your government knows better how your money needs to be spent.

indeed.

No, I didn't miss the point of the news article at all. I repeat my question - who the hell do you think is going to run the country if we go to war with it? OF COURSE we're going to treat it like post-WWII Japan. There is no other way to do it. And yes, it will cause a backlash; but what is the alternative?

And anyone who thinks it will only take a year is a fucking fool who needs to read a little U.S. history between 1964-1973.

Your arguement about planning for a military occupation being sinister is a self-fulfilling prophesy - it only makes sense if you accept your initial premise, which is that we;re not doing it for reasons of security, only for greed. What the fuck would you propose we do if we invade? You think we'll be able to find these weapons overnight? You think we should leave them to their own devices after we further destroy their infrastructure?

I find it ironic that Geo. W. "no nation building" Bush is now going to take on a 2nd rehab project.

i agree too.

arrogance and complacency in society is always the first sign marking the decline of an empire.

and all empires die. its never been a question of "if"... only a question of "when"

You don't know your history very well. Over a year before Hitler invaced Poland Finland was attacked by Russia, damn near beat them, but were finally overcome by the sheer numerical advantage the Russians had.

Your statement about Chechosolvakia makes even less sense - Britian and France disregarded the wishes of the fucking country they allowed Hitler to swallow at Munich - what makes you think the opinion of Finland would have been considered?

Do you think Finland should have formed an alliance with Switzerland and attempted to defend France and the rest of Europe from the Germans?

Anyother cliff-notes history student. Bah!

And how could I have missed that last paragraph? I'm slipping. Another from the "we got guns so we be more better free" school. Bah! Bah!

Mika wrote:

a. Why do American consider themselves to be any more free than other Western people?


My reply is:

Because we ARE more free than most, though not all other peoples. I know for a fact that people in The Netherlands have more personal freedom than Americans, if you don't count gun ownership as a freedom.

I can't comment on Finland...I know very little about it, except that it's so cold up there in the winter I probably won't bother.

Mika wrote:

Tell me, exactly, how do small arab/whatever countries threaten your PERSONAL freedom? We can't be so mislead that we think that a guy like Osama could take away the freedom of the whole American nation, can we? Yes, you could claim that two planes hitting twin towers took away the freedom of the people who died, but why does it have to be a foreign threat when it is considered a threat to freedom? Crime and drugs kill more people than any fucking terrorist ever will, but domestic issues like these are not threats to freedom.

My reply is:

Americans have the only Constitution which has "the pursuit of happiness" as an "inalienable right." We count the ability to go about our business securely and happily as a real and essential aspect of our freedom.

I'm not aware that Pres. Bush is making a case that terrorism is a threat to our freedom (though evidently his response to it is making some inroads against our freedoms). Rather, he is making the case that our security is threatened by some Muslim states (Iran is a Muslim state but not an Arab state), who are encouraging and/or financing and/or providing useful technologies to terrorists.

The day when one person could kill at most a few dozen people is obviously over. Less than a half dozen terrorists killed nearly 3,000 people in New York with an expenditure of a few tens of thousands of dollars. By contrast, an intercontinental nuclear missile can cost tens of millions of $.

We live in the age of the briefcase A-bomb. Bombs even more powerful than the ones used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki don't even need a missile for delivery. They can be brought into the country on a small boat in the dead of night and driven to New York, or Miami; Cleveland or St. Louis; Los Angeles or Seattle.

The point is, these people need to be stopped before things go that far.

Don't tell me Finland wouldn't do the same if it were so threatened and had the means to do so.

Porno,

We invaded Afghanistan, we didn't install Tommy Franks to run it while we searched for the existing weapons (in this case, terrorist hideouts and cels). Why? Because they have nothing of value to us, which explains why we have already moved on. There are many Iraqis who could take over in an interim government, and work with the US as the Afghans have to help us root out all these WMD.

It is my strong feeling, and most of the civilized world agrees with me, that this crusade is entirely motivated by politics. I am not against 'cleaning up' the corrupt and tyrannical regimes in the world, but Iraq is not the place to start. Our country, and especially this president, is getting in way over its head.

C.

I knew it!!!

Uhh no.

The Fact is USA Went Bankrupt in 1933 and has been in recievership ever since to 12 banks.
8 of them are european!
4 are Usa banks.

England owns usa.

Actually the Global elitists do.
Like the Rothschilds

Get your facts straight.
1. Usa Put Saddam in power.
2. Usa Gives Saddam Biochemical weapons in the 1980's
3. Usa Tells Saddam to Attack Kuwait in 1990's and Tells him we will back you up.
4. When Saddam attacks Kuwait Usa switches sides and Tells the world Saddam is Evil and is Attacking Kuwait! When the Usa told him to do it.
5. Usa Attacks Iraq ( Desert Storm )
6. 20% of all USA casualties in the war are from (Friendly Fire) meaning Usa Soldiers Killing One another
7. 40,000 (Gulf War)Soldiers are now semi-criticaly sick with unknown illness 10,000 already died.
8. Usa Government Used Biological Weapons out there and did not warn or protect its own Marines against it.
9. Usa Government Supllied Soldiers with depleted uranium bullets
which are radioactive and did not tell anyone.
10. Usa has been bombing iraq everyday since 1992
11. Usa Poisioned Iraqs water supply
12. The Us led United Nations has import embargo's on iraq since 1992 - ( In some Iraq hospitals they cannot even get toilet paper in because of the sanctions )
13. Over 2 million iraq children have died as a direct result of the United Nations Sanctions..
14. Now Bush and Cia admit in their own documents Iraq is no threat.. And they are doing it for the oil!
====
Wake Up! EveryOne.
This is Mass Murder Hitler Style!

The world is a bad place. People are stupid, and if you are like me, you want to hurt them.

But there are things in the world that make life worth living.



And not those nasty Velveeta slices either.

Damn right you are.
Hurting stupid people is, oh so, great.
...and there's definately things that make life worth living.

Mmmm...rolling rock and grilled cheese sandwich.

Why do American consider themselves to be any more free than other Western people?

-----------
Mika,

I agree with you. I've never understood that. I've travelled to many places, all of them as free as the US.

Now, I haven't travelled to Afghanistan - and in that sense the US and other Western countries are ALL more free than similar countries.

Now, the US does have a very nice long record of freedom from tyranny - straight through WW II, while much of Europe didn't. To be fair, the US did put it's boys on the line and fought in that war. Now, if I were out and a buncha thugs jumped me - and some guys saw it - and ran over to help me. I'd be thanking them for the rest of my life - instead of arguing about whether I needed them to come and help me - even if it did eventually hurt my pride.

Both my grandfathers fought in WW2. My grandmother told me that when someone in the house was killed in the European war, a flag was put in the window. She would cry walking around her neighborhood and there were flags in almost every window.