Why can Verotel/Globill overcome this and not the big 3? - GoFuckYourself.com - Adult Webmaster Forum

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Krome

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#1

Why can Verotel/Globill overcome this and not the big 3?

10-05-2002, 04:47 PM

So Verotel and Globill have easily announced fuck the $500 to Visa and we arent going to charge you an extra $250 for the admin but the big 3 Ccbill, Ibill and Epoch just cant seem to manage it? I was always under the impression that Epoch was an offshore entity but obviously not. Personnally I would rather have my balls cut off than use Verotel (How the fuck do you get decent rebills with this company?) but Globill I worked with 3 years ago on a site and they rocked... I always get my checks through from them on time so for me to change over is fuck easy...but what about my affiliates, there rebill income will be destroyed? Say they have done massive TGP posts over the years and do not know where the pages are still? I will just profit due to this if I do not pay up ( I am going to..got no fucking choice)...

But why can the smaller companies shove two fingers in the air to Visa but not the big boys? Are they now in bed with Visa?
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10-05-2002, 04:51 PM

I do find it odd that Globill is saying they found a complete solution and Jettis is saying they'll eat the fees, but the big three are more than willing to stick it to their clients and then make thinly veiled threats (Epoch).

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#3

10-05-2002, 04:54 PM

Tis long overdue that the three "players" did get off their asses and take steps to stop this current situation.

I ain't got a clue as the what is behind this (ranges from government cooperation, "someone" just filling their pockets to whatever!) .. but in the end, I got not the slightest intention of incorporating in the US and getting any US Tax Code (tis the last place in the world I would choose to set up business!)

Just give it a short while and there will be genuine, resposible companies out there (there are already a few!) to handle transactions.

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#4

10-05-2002, 05:11 PM

Seems to me the weak processors are about to oust the strong...
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#5

10-05-2002, 05:15 PM

Seems to me we should wait and see before making a mass exodus to globill only to get FUCKED hard in the long run..

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#6

10-05-2002, 05:20 PM

Ccbill, Ibill and Epoch are all greedy.

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10-05-2002, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by .:Frog:.
Ccbill, Ibill and Epoch are all greedy.

I said it before and I'll say it again. I smell price-fixing amongst the big3. I don't believe for a second that the registration fees are universally $750. Only the $500 is visa-mandated from the rules that have been posted here. The other $250 is supposedly ALL going to the banks. The big3 claim they won't see a penny of that $250. I don't buy it. Visa IS the banks. That's all that Visa is - just an association of banks. I think the $500 goes to the banks/Visa and the big3 decided to make a bad situation good for themselves by lining their pockets with the extra $250. They must have a handshake agreement amongst themselves:

"You don't charge webmasters $650 and I won't charge 'em $600. Let's all just agree to charge 'em $750. Good for you and good for me"

Yeah. But not good for us!!
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#8

10-05-2002, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Krome
Personnally I would rather have my balls cut off than use Verotel (How the fuck do you get decent rebills with this company?)

I have recently signed up with Verotel -- no problems being paid etc. but have noticed no re-bills.

Can you tell me more about what you think of Verotel????

So far I think they are ok.
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#9

10-05-2002, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by greentea
Seems to me we should wait and see before making a mass exodus to globill only to get FUCKED hard in the long run..

cant really do so much waiting, a month and a few days at most.. then you need to make a choice.. pay the Visa-Nazi fees and subject yourself to a "sponsored merchant account" without the ability to really get the merchant uses. still pay a 13%-15% fee on volume to the processors and just go about life as usual, or do one of the two.. pay the 13%-15% fees at most with glo-bill/jettis, or the final and probably smartest solution, get your own damn merchant account, pay the fuckin fees, but at least you dont pay those fucking volume % fees on processing and live by the same rules as option 1. it's really not that hard of a decision, it does suck, true, but its not a hard decision, worse thing happens you eat some rebills or email all your members "we are switching processors" and have them re-sign up, and give them a lil extra week or some shit for staying with you again with the new processor/merchant..

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#10

10-05-2002, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by schilli

I have recently signed up with Verotel -- no problems being paid etc. but have noticed no re-bills.

Can you tell me more about what you think of Verotel????

So far I think they are ok.

They email the surfer the day before the rebill is due telling them that they are about to be rebilled.
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#11

10-05-2002, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by NiteChatDotTV

and probably smartest solution, get your own damn merchant account, pay the fuckin fees, but at least you dont pay those fucking volume % fees on processing and live by the same rules as option 1. ..

Maybe. But then YOU become liable for huge fines if you ever have high chargebacks. Talk to some people who have been burnt by the same Unholy Visa/Mastercard monopoly. For Mastercard, if you pass 1% chargebacks for 3 months in a row the fee is $25,000!!!!!!!!! And I'm not talking about the new regs. I'm talking about any high-risk merchant. Them's the fees!!

We're getting fucked from every conceivable angle!!

I think I will take my mind off of all this crap by mastrubating into a warm cantaloupe.
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#12

10-05-2002, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by Krome

They email the surfer the day before the rebill is due telling them that they are about to be rebilled.

does globill do that as well?

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#13

10-05-2002, 05:52 PM

No they do not..

But they do offer that service if the webmaster wants it.
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#14

10-05-2002, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by quiet

does globill do that as well?

When I emailed globill and asked them about that, they said they only did it for 1% of the members....members who fell into what was typically a high chargeback profile.

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schilli

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#15

10-05-2002, 05:54 PM

In regards to Verotel's email -- is that not good sense to avoid chargebacks?
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Krome

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#16

10-05-2002, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by schilli
In regards to Verotel's email -- is that not good sense to avoid chargebacks?

We are trying to arse fuck people here not be fucked back and not given even a reach aroumd....
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quiet

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#17

10-05-2002, 06:33 PM

looking at the glo-bill site, there is no mention of the 'US Presence' issue.

are they definitely saying that they are exempt from these regs?

what form of password system do they use?

thanks

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#18

10-05-2002, 06:33 PM

I dont know what you crack heads are smoking, but verotel has an option if you want to email the surfer before he/she gets charged. I ofcoarse have that option turned off, and i signed up to my site myself, and let it rebill, and never got an email reminder about the rebill. I have been with verotel as a secondary processor for 4 months, and i have a nice rebill ratio.
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#19

10-05-2002, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by schilli

I have recently signed up with Verotel -- no problems being paid etc. but have noticed no re-bills.

Can you tell me more about what you think of Verotel????

So far I think they are ok.

I have used them on one of my sites, and so far so good.

Always pay. Scrub seems less than the Big 3. No problems with rebills.

I have received no email from them. Can you post it?
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quiet

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#20

10-05-2002, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by quiet
looking at the glo-bill site, there is no mention of the 'US Presence' issue.

are they definitely saying that they are exempt from these regs?

what form of password system do they use?

thanks

also - i was also wondering if they do wires (on the signup form it only mentions checks).

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#21

10-05-2002, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by quiet

also - i was also wondering if they do wires (on the signup form it only mentions checks).

Checks suck fat cock.

Wires rule!

Except when they get lost in the system, then they suck fat cock too.

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#22

10-05-2002, 06:54 PM

The *Big 3* are going to become the *Big Extinct*.

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#23

10-05-2002, 06:55 PM

Wonton,

You are exposed to possible chargeback fines now using a third party processor or not. You are correct in the fact that it is smarter now to get a merchant account. We can help and still handle all of your fraud scrubbing, customer service etc...

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#24

10-05-2002, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by schilli

I have recently signed up with Verotel -- no problems being paid etc. but have noticed no re-bills.
Can you tell me more about what you think of Verotel????
So far I think they are ok.

VEROTEL SUCKS - they are Ibill x10
I just had to argue with them last week. I cancelled my account with them in February and the fuckers are trying to charge my bank for a chargeback. Nine months after my account was closed they have a chargeback to charge me for ? !

I was losing about $200 per week in chargebacks and the bastards were screwing me for %15.00 per chargeback. With ccbill I process 1000 times more sales and my CB rate is 0.0%. If you sign up with them there is no getting away from them. They will continue to try and drain money from you like blood sucking leeches. Do not write those fuckers a blank check - Im telling ya, process with anyone other than them.
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quiet

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#25

10-05-2002, 07:32 PM

bump

looking at the glo-bill site, there is no mention of the 'US Presence' issue.

are they definitely saying that they are exempt from these regs?

what form of password system do they use?

also - i was also wondering if they do wires (on the signup form it only mentions checks).

thanks

we'll miss you our friend. RIP
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#26

10-05-2002, 07:35 PM

Quiet:

yea and you won't find any "US prescence" no matter how hard ya look!

The three problem processors are no more than US domestic processors who have made no effort to gain banking relationships round the world and hence in the shit over VISA US rules - nobody else has this problem.. including Globill

Stay cool - more non-US processors on the way! :-)

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#27

10-05-2002, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by Webby
Quiet:

yea and you won't find any "US prescence" no matter how hard ya look!

The three problem processors are no more than US domestic processors who have made no effort to gain banking relationships round the world and hence in the shit over VISA US rules - nobody else has this problem.. including Globill

Stay cool - more non-US processors on the way! :-)

I agree. I think IBill, CCBill, and Epoch are just shitting themselves because they were too stupid to setup merchant bank accounts in other countries besides the US until now.

Even PSW Billing has said that they have merchant banks in 6 different countries. Why the big 3 didn't set this up before is beyond me.

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#28

10-05-2002, 07:49 PM

Ya hit it on the head Brown Bear!!

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#29

10-05-2002, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by netbilling
Wonton,

You are exposed to possible chargeback fines now using a third party processor or not. You are correct in the fact that it is smarter now to get a merchant account. We can help and still handle all of your fraud scrubbing, customer service etc...

Mitch

Well yes and no, Mitch. If I had my own merchant account I am liable for 100% of that first $25,000 fee if I pass 1% chargebacks with Mastercard. That is muchos moola!

With the 3rd party guys, THEY are liable for that $25k fine, not ME. And yes, they will probably pass it on to their webmasters but then we are talking about $25k divided by 10,000 webmasters or roughly $2.50 fined to me.

I can handle the $2.50. I CANNOT handle the $25,000!!

There's a hell of a lot more risk in running your own high-risk merchant account. To say otherwise is purely delusional.
If you had non-adult merchant account then maybe it's different. But an adult one is classified as high-risk and you come under that $25,000 fine potential.

... and that's fucked up!!!
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#30

10-05-2002, 08:21 PM

Wonton:

Yep.. your right! Once you reach that 1%, not only are you screwed for life by VISA on track record, but you got this small "fine" (shit.. the arrogance - they judges in a courtroom as well??) to pay.

"Processors" run their own businesses and relationships and provide some accounting to their clients for their cut and are paid for this - give me a processor any day!

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#31

10-05-2002, 08:22 PM

Shit.. na.. not *any* processor! One outside US territory!!

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#32

10-05-2002, 09:22 PM

Topic: Why can Verotel/Globill overcome this and not the big 3?

You know I remember there was this guy from California who said he could cut taxes across the board, increase defense spending to 1 trillion dollars a year, AND balance the budget in 4 years.

There were lots of well known, well respected experts in the field who said there was no way that could be done, the numbers just don't add up.

But, the majority of the people WANTED TO BELIEVE this guy.

8 years and a 5 trillion dollar debt later...........................

My point is that if something seems too good to be true it probably is.
Also I think something very important to look at is that the companies that "say" they've found a workaround or a loophole to the new regulations are the smaller ones that are aggressively pursuing new business, NOT the big 3 that already have the majority of the business.
Do you really beleive that with the financial and legal resources of the big 3 they were unable to find a way around this that the smaller companies could find?

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#33

10-05-2002, 09:32 PM

Lenny2:

There are no "loopholes"... tis pretty simple in that the rules of VISA US do not apply to other global banking regions - they have rejected VISA's "rules".

So basically you have these three companies claiming everyone "must" do something about incorporation and US Tax Codes or not be paid - all bollocks!

No other processor that deals internationally has this problem name me one and I'll be shitting myself! ...

As far as the "expertise" of the legal staff of the "BIG" three (??) are concerned, if they are as good as the service provided by IBill, there is no hope! Also, gotta say, there is this mental abberation in US legal practices about anything "international" - most of em don't know further than Missisippi, never mind attempting to create global banking relationships!

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#34

10-05-2002, 10:15 PM

also let's not forget the way the big3 have represented themselves on this board in the last 3 days...

Pretty fucking retarded and pretty fucking arrogant!!

You think that with all their financial resources, advisors and lawyers they could have done better than the smaller companies at PR?

Well they didn't! Which just goes to show that for all their size and influence they DO NOT always make the right moves.

In the last few days they have made all the WRONG moves. And it seems there are other companies out there who are in fact making the RIGHT moves.
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#35

10-05-2002, 10:33 PM

They have lost contact with reality, we are production units for them.

Let's show we can kick back, as soon as someone will find a solution, they will find they made the wrong move, they will try to fix it, but it will be late.

check this post:

http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...threadid=80776

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#36

10-05-2002, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by Krome

They email the surfer the day before the rebill is due telling them that they are about to be rebilled.

That seems very honest. I know some do not agree, but all that happens is the surfer signs up or moves onto another site and that is like a merry go round.

Only problem I can see is if they email you with, "Your membership to www.Granniestakingituptheass.com" is about to be renewed" Now that could be a problem.

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#37

10-05-2002, 11:22 PM

It would seem the BIG3 have fallen into the "trap" that most big companies fall into, complacency.

Rank Xerox, IBM, to name two examples. They thought they had a position in a market they dominated. Then slowly the little guys that were never any trouble started to win business from them and eventually overtook them.

The regulations seem too have been brought out by VISA US, but way the BIG3 handled this whole thing shows nothing but contempt for their clients.

Did Visa spring it on them a year/month/week before it was announced to their customers? Doubtful if it was less than 6 months, companies like Visa will take a long time to make a decision.

Why were the BIG3 clients only given 4 weeks too prepare? But they, it seems, had time to get together and decide on a standard "Admin" charge.

New people will look at alternatives, older paysites will look at introducing other billing companies, in an industry that finds it difficult to keep a surfer more than 6 months, in general, it will not take long to move away enough business from the BIG3 for them to feel the pinch.

Companies like them have big overheads they are committed to, they lose 5% of their turnover and that is 20+% of their profit.

There is LA, and Vegas shows in the next 3 moths, it will be very interesting to see the BIG3 stands and the look on the reps faces as they struggle to win new business and see the old accounts reduce. Will they still be at Cannes and Vegas? IBill were in Amsterdam.

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#38

10-05-2002, 11:30 PM

Very true Charly.

I think the big 3 got arrogant into thinking they didn't need to worry about losing clients to smaller companies.

It will be interesting to see who is still around this time next year.

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#39

10-05-2002, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by Krome

They email the surfer the day before the rebill is due telling them that they are about to be rebilled.

And that is good, because it is partly chargebacks and refunds that got our industry into this situation, isn't it?

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#40

10-06-2002, 02:34 AM

If the new regs are from VisaUSA the it would make sense that processors that are in different areas would be under a differnent set of rules.

If Globill and others moved or were already in a different area what is so "fishy" when they say the aren't subject to VISAUSA rules.

I understand VISA is consortium of banks not a single entity.

The US doesn't want to be a part of internet porn. What is unclear about that. I think the present administration has been clear about that.

You can pack up or shut up.

If you think that is wrong then take it up with the Justice Department. It is run by a man who has made it clear what he thinks about pornographers.

If you are still here next. year I am sure something even worse will be done with you

In America you don't do what you want, you do what your told.

Last edited by kevinl; 10-06-2002, 02:35 AM.

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#41

10-06-2002, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by Krome

They email the surfer the day before the rebill is due telling them that they are about to be rebilled.

you can turn that OFF. You can set just about everything with Verotel. At least it was like that when I used them about a year ago. I am sure they haven't changed that. It is prolly a mistake on the webmasters behalf. Look through the manuals.

Verotel is quite good actually and strong in rebilling too (doesn't seem as if they let people off the hook too easily).

I think ProAdult uses verotel.
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#42

10-06-2002, 08:58 AM

The difference between the Big 3 and processors like Verotel seems to be in how they are classified. While the Big 3 are classified as IPSP others like Verotel are classified as TicketMaster because they only process for content subscriptions and not product sales. This is from Verotel's website:

VISA and MasterCard in the United States have introduced new regulations regarding the business practices of third party billers, whereby these companies are classified as an IPSP and their customers need to register as a 'Sponsored Merchant'.
Verotel is located with its main office in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, and acquires its VISA and MasterCard transactions through its banking relationships in five different countries outside the US. In the last couple of days we contacted all the VISA and MasterCard regulators in these countries to see if Verotel was threatened by this IPSP policy. Fortunately this is not the case.

Because Verotel provides its processing services for content subscriptions only, and not for product sales (physical goods), Verotel is classified as a 'TicketMaster', in the same way a company could be classified selling tickets for concerts or shows online.
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#43

10-07-2002, 06:45 AM

If Verotel's statements are correct and they certainly sound plausible to me.

I would of thought that the big 3 could have separated their client product offerings into seperate entities, one offering product sales and the other offering subscription sales all under the one parent company structure...

Seems sensible to me not have have all your eggs in one basket if they could see this coming.
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#44

10-07-2002, 06:58 AM

hahahaha....

US Billing companies need new ways to rip you money!!!

Our Russian processor DiBill didn´t even referred that VISA problem once

They just keep Billing, Rebilling and Paying us and our advertisers each monday

As long you get stick to those BIG 3 US ASSHOLES you will have this sort of troubles
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#45

10-07-2002, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by markusborger
hahahaha....

US Billing companies need new ways to rip you money!!!

Our Russian processor DiBill didn´t even referred that VISA problem once

A Russian processor? You have got to be kidding! Who in their right mind would send any financial data through a Russian service?!? Scams, fraud, hacks, kiddie porn... Russian specialities.

Who in the world gave these guys a merchant account?!
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#46

10-07-2002, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by ozzymandius

A Russian processor? You have got to be kidding! Who in their right mind would send any financial data through a Russian service?!? Scams, fraud, hacks, kiddie porn... Russian specialities.

Who in the world gave these guys a merchant account?!

check his sig, that will answer your question.

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#47

10-07-2002, 02:51 PM

There is a lot of wild speculation out there about why the "Big 3" processors have not "been able" to offer offshore billing solutions to webmasters. If you understood that VISA is an American owned company, then you hopefully realize that "hiding" offshore somewhere and billing through VISA will not necessarily solve your issues. Since ALL billing (eventually) ends up going through VISA USA, the possiblity that you will actually avoid the $750 registration fee is very small.

If the "Big 3" saw a way to resolve this issue in any other manner, I am sure they would have posted it. After all, they have lawyers and accountants that specialize in this sort of thing. I doubt if they are sitting back through all this and waiting for customers to jump ship. Think about that before you alarm the rest of us with rumors and unsubstantiated speculation.

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin
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ozzymandius

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Join Date: Apr 2002

Posts: 111
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#48

10-07-2002, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by NacnudEsor
There is a lot of wild speculation out there about why the "Big 3" processors have not "been able" to offer offshore billing solutions to webmasters. If you understood that VISA is an American owned company, then you hopefully realize that "hiding" offshore somewhere and billing through VISA will not necessarily solve your issues. Since ALL billing (eventually) ends up going through VISA USA, the possiblity that you will actually avoid the $750 registration fee is very small.

If the "Big 3" saw a way to resolve this issue in any other manner, I am sure they would have posted it. After all, they have lawyers and accountants that specialize in this sort of thing. I doubt if they are sitting back through all this and waiting for customers to jump ship. Think about that before you alarm the rest of us with rumors and unsubstantiated speculation.

The Big3 have lost all credibility if you have been reading this board in teh last 3 days. Now they are scrambling to play catch-up with a group of small and medium sized companies that reacted smarter, faster and with a hell of a lot more respect for webmasters.

Fuck 'da 3 stooges!
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BJ

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Join Date: Mar 2002

Posts: 5590
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#49

10-07-2002, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Krome

They email the surfer the day before the rebill is due telling them that they are about to be rebilled.

Just wait until you need a signature on file to rebill a customer.....seems to be going that way
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