They say one is born gay . . . .

Yeah, cause we're fading away fast. The human race is practically extinct!

Its true that their is a difference in the brain, however its also been shown in other research that the way we are brought up can cause physical changes in the brain.

Im am gay and try to keep upto date with the research, not because it effects how I feel about it, just because Im curious about it.

The latest consensus seems to be that its up bringing, genetics, chemical causes pre birth and probably other factors too. There is no "one reason" why people are gay. Some will probably have a gay gene, but thats not proven by any means. Some will have been effected by "older brother syndrome" which is where the more boys a mother has carried in her womb, the more likely she is to produce a gay male. Others will have been affected by up bringing.

Human sexuality seems to be much more complicated than scientists first thought when they started looking at it.

I havent seen any scientific research that suggests its choice. But even if it was, who really cares? Im an adult and if I had chosen to have consensual relationships with men, surely thats my look out and no one elses - we live in a free society after all.

I have seen lots of research about how children play. The boys who turn out gay are more likely to play less agressive games as a child. Even when parents have tried hard to make them play more like boys do. Thats suggests that sexuality is determined by early childhood, regardless of the reason for them being gay.

That's what I said.

I think that would suggest that the child was gay to begin with and played less aggressively as a result, rather than just chose to play less aggressively and became gay.

Well what about Bisexual's?

Homosexuality it's a narcissistic deviation, sign of of our extremely individualist times...

Yes I agree, thats what I was trying to say but obviously failed a bit

Honestly? I think one is born gay. You are either attracted to dick or pussy. You can't choose which. Whatever your body craves...gay men literally cringe at the sight of a vagina. Or they just giggle at it.

I would argue that gay people have always existed, but only now is it discussed as people are more open about it. So that cant really be the case.

I have a friend that loves lettuce. Personally, I don't like lettuce at all. I didn't chose to not like it - I just knew I didn't the first time I tried it and really, I knew lettuce wasn't for me even before I tasted it. So I'm sure that people can certainly be wired with predisposed likes and dislikes when it comes to sexual preferences.

But for God's sake, get a cast to help with that limp wrist syndrome - that's not wired!

That actually bugs the fuck out of me whenever I see it. Apart from anything else, guys acting camp is not hot in the slightest. I see its alot with camp little 18 year olds in the clubs. Its defo a put on imo. They were not like that before they discovered the clubs (imo). Some may have been, but most were not,

I have lots of gay friends and non of them have ever said it was a choice. Maybe others are much more open about this then I am but I am straight and do not find men attractive at all.

If growing up with just a mom made you gay then we would have about 50% gay in our culture. This is what is called anecdotal evidence. I can also point to people with two parent households who played with GI Joe and are gay.

The trauma thing could hold water but so many people I know say they were gay from a very young age. I have never met a gay person who says it just happened later in life.

I believe that you can raise a genetically straight boy to make him wear skirts (always in the color pink), give him only dolls to play with, and teach him all kinds of traditionally feminine mannerisms - and he's still going to come out straight. He'd going grow up and be attracted to and want to fuck females rather than males.

In an extreme and unhealthy scenario like that, I'd expect the kid to be confused and experience tremendous cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance) during his developing years while under the heel of his insane parents, but once removed from the toxic environment and given free choice to dress and act the way he wants to, he'd be masculine.

I'm sure there are a small number of people who may be completely straight who pretend and flirt with the idea that they're gay, or extreme fetishists who may engage in homosexual behavior even if they're straight, but clearly the vast majority do not. Then you have bisexuals who apparently are attracted to both genders.

I think it's all hardcoded for us.

No, actually homosexuality is grounded in the trauma, that the child at one point felt attraction to the mother, and knew this was wrong. Finding this unbearable the boy turns to 'Men', and lives a life in denial. Throughout life the *child* will do everything to prove to his mother, that he never had such thoughts about her to begin with, this is why fags have all those parades, it reliefs their anxiety, and solidifies their false world.

It is proven that being gay has been around for centuries, there are talks in old ancient texts about it and even erotic literature and pictures from many centuries ago depicting gay sex and gay people.

Well done, you take the prize for the person who said the most stupid thing in what was otherwise an intelligent debate. Can you find a single scientific study that backs that up?

I totally agree with everything you have said here.

No matter how much more accepted gay people are these days there is still alot of stigma attached to it and alot of hateful people out in the world ready to hurt or kill someone for being different.

Here's the thing - most of the people who discuss sexual preferences as nature, nurture or choice are not familiarized with the LGBT community and don't even know the huge spectrum there is.

There's a lot of assumptions regarding if a young boy has feminine manerisms, then they'll be gay... a lot about how "born in the wrong body" makes you gay, about hormones... but that is not the case.

I've met very heterosexual extraordinarily effeminate guys, I've met transgender males who like girls and I've met very manly gay guys. I've met perfectly heterosexual guys who grew up in a hair salon and happy estable families with gay sons and lesbian daughters. It is a very complicated thing and it's not the same for everyone.

From published research and talking to a lot of gay people:
- GENES determine if you will be truly attracted to a given gender (your own or your opposite) in an animalistic sense of the word - who can you mate with and feel it as the right choice? who are you able to truly love? There's been studies about this. It comes down to how chemicals in the brain act and how they act is determiend from birth.
- CROMOSOMES will give you a female or male body, or something in the middle (a much higher percentage than people think)
- HORMONES will make you develop GENERAL physical or behavioral characteristics - such as having little or a lot of hair, and liking rough sports or enjoying peace and quiet.
- LEFT AND RIGHT BRAIN will make you a sensitive and artsy person or not.
- FATHER/MOTHER FIGURES will make you develop a personality and needs, occassionally missing a father will spurt the need for a male in your life thus making you seek it... other times it will make you adopt said figure on yourself.
- ENVIRONMENT will develop manerisms and likes - there ARE heterosexual hairdressers
And finally:
- TRAUMA kids who are bullied, sexual abuse as a child, negative parental figures... either can push you away from a given gender or make you feel you "MUST" be attracted to another one whether you're actually "coded" to be attracted to them or not.

A combination of all of this is what determines the sexuality of a person... some are coded to like guys, some like girls and some like both... and then comes the behavioral conditions, nurture and trauma. In the end, you just are what you can be.

In short:

I am a bisexual woman, and I have been deeply in love with females even if I am engaged to a guy now... I did not choose to be bi because it's fashionable, I have never put on a show for the attention and I never felt it was cool since many bisexuals are ostracized by both the gay and straight communities - yet I can't help liking guys and girls. And I'm happy, it gives me the chance to appreciate beauty everywhere.

And I'll stop before I start ranting about the bi myths

I know exactly you don't want to hear

No, it really was pretty stupid.

Sad but true. Ive never understood how that can happen as surely gay people should know better.

http://flybase.org/reports/FBgn0004652.html

Mutations in the fruitless gene cause homosexual courtship and attempted copulating in Drosophila. Reproduced in mouse.

There are early signs which parents can look for to determine whether or not their child is teh ghey...





ADG

i am str8

Well, from my experience and bi forums it is mostly because some gay people go:
a) bi people are in denial (they're actually gay)
b) bi people are faking (they're actually straight and want to do "gay stuff" cuz it's "cool")
and the ugliest one which is:
c) bi people have the "straight benefit", as in they can have an opposite sex partner that will be seen better in the eyes of society...

I love woman

Homosexuality in Nature

Homosexual activity is found in nature as well, do animals make these same type of "higher brain" thinking choices?

Homosexual behavior in animals refers to the documented evidence of homosexual or transgender behavior in non-human animals. Such behaviors include sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting. Homosexual and bisexual behavior are widespread in the animal kingdom: a 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior, has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them.[1][2] Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species. The motivations for and implications of these behaviors have yet to be fully understood, since most species have yet to be fully studied.[3]

The naturalness of homosexuality in non-human animals is considered controversial by conservative religious groups who oppose LGBT social movements because these findings seem to point to the naturalness of homosexuality in humans.[4] Whether this has logical or ethical implications is also a source of debate, with some arguing that it is illogical to use animal behavior to justify what is or is not moral (see appeal to nature).[4][5][6]

the rest of the article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

I believe no one is born gay you just becomes gay. now how that happens is another mystery. maybe to many options in life.

http://everything2.com/title/Oedipus%2520complex

"The Oedipus Complex occurs during the phallic stage, from roughly ages 3-6 years. Freud believed that during this stage boys seek genital stimulation and develop both unconscious desires for their mother and jealousy and hatred for their father, whom they consider a rival. It was said that boys felt guilt and lurking fear that their father would punish them, such as by castration"

"Freud believed that this Oedipus complex is a core element of the human psyche. In Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality, he wrote, "The Oedipus complex is the nuclear complex of the neuroses...Every new arrival on this planet is faced with the task of mastering the Oedipus complex; anyone who fails to do so falls a victim to neurosis" (290). To Freud, 'neurosis' is anything from anxiety to "homosexuality" (644). The overcoming of this complex, according to Freud, is something common to all human experience. Because literature describes and represents human experience, it has long portrayed the Oedipus complex, often unconsciously."

hmmm, is it considered gay if you use the bathroom curtains to wipe off instead?

Do you know the difference between science and opinion.

Much props to Freud for philosophy, but he never produced any science to my
knowledge.

For all we know Freud could have been the biggest bigot in the world toward gays
and this influenced his opinion.

But of course we can not apply any analysis to Freud; he can only analyze us.

Actually I have one son who had 3 strong female influences in his life with minor males in the background. He was taught to shake his thing a few extra times after peeing because there is nothing worse than a wet spot.

Is he gay? No, far from it. The guy always has a girlfriend, all the chicks love him because he got a lot of tips on being the perfect guy from the girls in his life. He has hung out with the same group of guys since grade school. One of them came out as gay (they all knew for years he must be gay and didn't care). They still hang out with him, and the guy even brings his boyfriend with him when they all bring dates for dinner etc.

My son does not believe his manhood is on the line having a friend who is gay. He believe who a person is, how they treat you, is far more important than who they screw behind closed doors.

My son's best "net friend" is a hardcore gamer like he is. She also happens to be a lesbian (not bi) who up until meeting my son pretty well hated all guys. They met in person at a few gamer trade shows where he went with his gaming buddies. He then spent 3 weeks this past summer traveling with her and her girlfriend through the American Rockies and Yellowstone park. They all had a blast.

My son feels the female influence in his life had positive effects on him. It has made him a more attentive friend and a caring boyfriend.

You don't have to have a beard, ride bikes and have a wet spot to be a man, and wiping your dick clean after you pee doesn't make you gay.

Tell ya what. Buy a box of wipes, wipe your dick after peeing every day for a month and then tell us if you screwed any guys. I bet your answer will be no.

Ding Ding Ding. Anyone who thinks it's a choice needs to have their heads checked.

I can hardly believe, in this day and age, that this would even need to be debated.

As stated above, thats theory not evidence. In any case Freud died in the late 30s. Since then we've benefited from alot of scientific research (not theory as Freud presented but actual research based evidence) which shows many possible causes for homosexuality. None have suggested your post was correct.

Your post was still pretty stupid

Okay, that wins for most bizarre thing I have seen all day.



Anyway, on topic...if properly cleaning your penis makes a guy gay then I only wish more straight guys were gay.

Absolutely 100% believe you're born with your sexual preference hardwired.

I also think in the years to come, people will look back at the whole "it's a choice" thing and laugh about how stupid that sounds, just like we laugh at people years ago leeching blood to cure basic medical problems or performing exorcisms for mental illnesses.

i have to say i am impressed with the thoughfullness and sensitivity that most convey in this thread. open mindedness to learn and discuss views with one another on this topic shows a maturity that is mostly lacking on this forum. a couple weeks ago there was a documentary on gay identical twins. i was only able to see the first 20-30 minutes of it but will look for it again to air. the identicals were studied at length to try to find any differences (obviously there were none on a genetic level). the first set were males out of high school. one gay, one not. the parents were involved in the interviewing and with the whole family involved, all agreed that nothing was different in the upbringing. the gay twin recalled having zero interest in sports while his brother was into playing them all at. he said he was interested in the arts, drama, dance etc. at a very young age. i didn't get to see the next set of twin adult females which were both gay. basically, the documentary still didn't answer any of the questions difinitively that are in this thread. there was no "logical" (nurture) or "biological" (nature) answer to come out of the study as to why people were gay or straight. the statistic that was listed after they showed the first set of twins, based on all of the identical twin studies, was that if one twin is gay, there is a 50% rate of the other twin being gay. i think that was about all they could conclude. anyone else see this documentary?? kinda of made me rethink a few of the nature vs nurture ideas out there. seemed like neither was the answer. for the record, i believe a person is either going to be gay or they are not. no tangible explanations, just one of lifes beautiful mysteries that doesn't need solving.

I think that there are both types of gays

I believe a boy can tollerate and accept other gays, maby even have an encounter. But to be truely gay, you are born with it

I think it's a combination of the two. In my opinion being born with a certain sexual attraction is the main cause, but upbringing can influence that attraction to some degree.

Then how do you explain this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

Looks like Firecracker beat me to it...

I think it has more to do with genetics, after all I'm sure most gays were raised by heterosexual parents in a hetero environment, and yet they turned out to be gay.

Correct, there are both types. For the most part most gays are born that way, BUT... what about all those otherwise straight guys who, for example, get sent to prison for life and become what's called being "institutionally gay"? In that situation I think it definitely comes down to choice.

Actually, I'd say you're the most correct response so far. When I had to take a biology course for pre-med they were teaching that gayness is a result of genetics and that it is transferred along the mother's side... and that was in 1994. Will this show up on the front page of the daily newspaper? Probably not for some time yet. It just blows the whole moral majority attitude and religious opinions right out the door.

As to the limp wrist and girl walk - it's the higher estrogen. Purely biological.