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Vixenator

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#101

01-01-2009, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by tony404

What do you create? I cant imagine what it can be that you feel its ok for others to take someone else's sweat and blood.
I have to disagree those things are tangible products they arent theories or a service.

Oh please, quote me saying I think any of this stuff is ok then.
Think you got me confused with someone there... I've been saying quite the opposite throughout this thread.

My argument is simply that it's fundamentally wrong to simply call this "theft" because what's going on here is a lot more complicated than that. It has however nothing to do with how I feel about file sharing and the damage it causes.

If someone damages my business he or she should pay, by way of me taking them to court. Problem is that the industries that have tried to go after people this way have had a tough time making their cases stick because the laws were outdated and the technology and mechanisms involved were too hard for courts to grasp... so, instead everyone and his brother is now lobbying for this to be equated with "theft" and have people thrown in jail, which I happen to think is incredibly counter productive.

How do I regain any of my lost profit from having some kids thrown in jail? And if risking jail time is suppose to make this all stop and go away, how come people are still smoking weed? Besides, if they lock up everyone who's downloading stuff we lose a lot of potential customers, because the world isn't all black and white and surfers aren't nicely divided into sinners and saints.

Go after the big fish and sue them for a lot of fucking money, site owners, providers even advertisers, that's the best solution. Scare tactics and calling people "thieves" won't do shit.

Watch this space...
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Robbie

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#102

01-01-2009, 03:34 PM

I know I don't want to throw anybody in jail myself. And I'm of the opinion that the less involvement from any form of govt. authority...the better.

But I do believe that laws will catch up with technology. And that may end up being a two-headed snake for adult entertainment on the internet.

I think what has to be done is that sites are going to have to start locking down their members areas. Plain and simple. Just letting everybody download your stuff is why they are able to re-upload it and fuck you over.

And the fuckheads running the torrent and illegit tube sites are just picking up the money that's practically being handed to them. Stop the content flow and you stop the theft.

And yeah, a determined person can always figure a way to steal something. We all know that. But if I leave my front door wide open with a big sign that says "Just feel free to take all you want" Then, even "good" people are going to help themselves.

That's why we all put a lock on our front door. Yeah, the real thieves can and will break in and steal. But for the most part they don't. Never had a home broken into in my whole life.

-Robbie
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sortie

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#103

01-01-2009, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Vixenator

Yes, I do!

A tangible products must have a physical form, so music, for instance, isn't tangible in and of itself neither are images, it's the physical medium it's distributed on that is tangible. If I snatch a CD in a record store I've stolen it... if I download it from Pirate Bay, I'm violating someones copyright.

Sure, so go ahead and steal cable because the signal is not tangible.
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Vixenator

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#104

01-01-2009, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by sortie

Sure, so go ahead and steal cable because the signal is not tangible.

What the fuck are you talking about? Are you high? Where have I suggested stealing anything?

...and just so you know, you can't "steal cable" unless you rip it from the side of a house and sell the copper to a junk yard. What you do is unauthorized tampering with a cable provider's equipment, probably in violation with a contract you have made with him at some point. He can sue you, that's it. Know anyone who's been prosecuted in a criminal court for "stealing cable"?

Watch this space...
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gideongallery

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#105

01-01-2009, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Carmine Raguso

Copying? Who in the fuck is COPYING anything? How many people actually go to the pirate bay to get back ups of their shit. Umm.... about 3 surfers since the site's inception.

Don't be a dip shit and try to pull some first ammendment bullshit "everybody look at me, i'm a rebel" tactic crap.

The sight is all about THEFT plain and simple. My opinion? No. Fact? Yup

again more than 50% of all torrent traffic is downloading tv shows
many of the movies that are downloaded are old enough that they have aired on tv

so right now a majority of people are using the pirate bay as a VCR.

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#106

01-01-2009, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by gideongallery

again more than 50% of all torrent traffic is downloading tv shows
many of the movies that are downloaded are old enough that they have aired on tv

so right now a majority of people are using the pirate bay as a VCR.

Mr Timeshift you are late. lol
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gideongallery

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#107

01-01-2009, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by tony404

Mr Timeshift you are late. lol

not really my first post was on page 1

Originally posted by gideongallery

you do realize this is the pirate bay
they have been very public about their identities since the police raid a couple of years ago

they go on speaking engagements

they moved their head office directly across from brein

first post objected to the claim that they would stop now that they have been identified

second objected to the patently false claim that no one is using the pirate bay for anything but stealing when 50%+ are using it for fair use rights like timeshifting, backup and recovery.

“When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak
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mynameisjim

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#108

01-01-2009, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by gideongallery

again more than 50% of all torrent traffic is downloading tv shows
many of the movies that are downloaded are old enough that they have aired on tv

so right now a majority of people are using the pirate bay as a VCR.

Just because something has been offered to the public already doesn't mean it's now free for anyone to distribute it however and wherever they see fit.

If a store has a 2 for 1 sale one week and then a week later you go in and buy one product and steal the second, is that OK because they were giving that item away for free a week ago?

But if users want to record TV shows, they can. Individuals are allowed to DVR and archive any TV show they want for private viewing. It's totally legal. It's the redistribution they are not allowed to do. Where do you see that as too restrictive?

But most people who are the most adamant supporters of filesharing are usually broke and therefore probably don't have cable TV or a DVR. I feel for them but we live in a world where you have to pay for certain luxuries.

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gideongallery

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#109

01-01-2009, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Vixenator

Oh please, quote me saying I think any of this stuff is ok then.
Think you got me confused with someone there... I've been saying quite the opposite throughout this thread.

My argument is simply that it's fundamentally wrong to simply call this "theft" because what's going on here is a lot more complicated than that. It has however nothing to do with how I feel about file sharing and the damage it causes.

If someone damages my business he or she should pay, by way of me taking them to court. Problem is that the industries that have tried to go after people this way have had a tough time making their cases stick because the laws were outdated and the technology and mechanisms involved were too hard for courts to grasp... so, instead everyone and his brother is now lobbying for this to be equated with "theft" and have people thrown in jail, which I happen to think is incredibly counter productive.

How do I regain any of my lost profit from having some kids thrown in jail? And if risking jail time is suppose to make this all stop and go away, how come people are still smoking weed? Besides, if they lock up everyone who's downloading stuff we lose a lot of potential customers, because the world isn't all black and white and surfers aren't nicely divided into sinners and saints.

Go after the big fish and sue them for a lot of fucking money, site owners, providers even advertisers, that's the best solution. Scare tactics and calling people "thieves" won't do shit.

actually i think it worse than that, misrepresenting fair use as theft, using a false equality to justify criminal prosecution causes a backlash, it allows people to hide behind fair use when they are actually doing something wrong (like copying content they have never paid for/ or given a right too). The best solution is to fully provide for the fair use rights, take away the shield that is being use to justify illegal activities. Once that is gone you have the ability to stop the site cold.

“When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak
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sortie

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#110

01-01-2009, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Vixenator

What the fuck are you talking about? Are you high? Where have I suggested stealing anything?

...and just so you know, you can't "steal cable" unless you rip it from the side of a house and sell the copper to a junk yard. What you do is unauthorized tampering with a cable provider's equipment, probably in violation with a contract you have made with him at some point. He can sue you, that's it. Know anyone who's been prosecuted in a criminal court for "stealing cable"?

You talking to me?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...=Entertainment

http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/...wscolumn1.html

Now that pirating a cable TV signal has been classified as a felony in Ohio, one can imagine scofflaws across Columbus shouting: "You want me, coppers, you gotta come in and get me!"

The toughening of the penalty for cable signal theft was included in the Ominbus Criminal Sentencing Act of 1995, which went into effect July 1 of this year. Possessing any device allows a user to receive cable without paying for it is a fifth-degree felony. It's a fourth-degree felony to sell such equipment.

The penalties include up to 18 months in jail and a fine of up to $50,000

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-librar...y-lawyers.html

Stealing cable TV is a federal crime. The law prohibits anyone from intercepting or receiving any cable communications unless authorized by a cable operator.

...

Is it a Crime to Sell Products/Services that Allow Others to Steal Cable?
Yes. The federal statute that prohibits stealing cable also forbids assisting others in stealing cable, which can include making and distributing any equipment intended for unauthorized reception of cable services.
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gideongallery

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#111

01-01-2009, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by mynameisjim

Just because something has been offered to the public already doesn't mean it's now free for anyone to distribute it however and wherever they see fit.

If a store has a 2 for 1 sale one week and then a week later you go in and buy one product and steal the second, is that OK because they were giving that item away for free a week ago?

so we are doing the false theft analogy again, re read the post above copyright infringement is not theft. There is no point in making any arguement but that.

copyright infringement is a fraud not a theft.

But if users want to record TV shows, they can. Individuals are allowed to DVR and archive any TV show they want for private viewing. It's totally legal. It's the redistribution they are not allowed to do. Where do you see that as too restrictive?

100% wrong
if what you were saying was true then sony would have been forced to include a recording key that prevented a tape recorded on one of their vcr to play successfully on another vcr. UNIVERSAL DID NOT GET SUCH A RIGHT.

in 1970 if i failed to tape "knight rider" for some reason (ie the power went out) i was perfectly within my right to call up a friend and borrow his copy of the show. If i passed it on to other friends who were on the same block and missed the show too, that was also legal.

In 2008 if i missed "knight rider" (the new crappy one) the modern day equivalent of borrowing a tape is connect to the torrent swarm.

Remember the court just recognized using a cloud as a time shifting device
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/08/victory-dvrs-cloud

since a swarm is just a cloud we are a hair breath away from explictly justifying that use as well. (which is the real reason why many people believe the MPAA stop going after individuals)

But most people who are the most adamant supporters of filesharing are usually broke and therefore probably don't have cable TV or a DVR. I feel for them but we live in a world where you have to pay for certain luxuries.

99.5% of the US population has at least one TV. 97% have two or more tv per household. using torrents to download TV shows requires a fast internet connection which only 60% of the population has (the top 60% btw).

The really poor people, the ones who can't afford cable, are not going to the torrent sites. IF they can't afford cable, they definately can't afford really fast internet connections.

I would bet that most are like me, they paid $15/month for a PVR
it was crappy box, which failed to tape their shows, missing the last 5 minutes, losing all your setting when the power goes out. Having family accidently delete a show you haven't watched yet.

realized that torrents have none of those problem. and just switched to a better solution.
I built a dedicated torrent recorder. I spent more on hardware then i would have to buy a tivo/pvr to make my torrent recorder.

“When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak
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Vixenator

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#112

01-01-2009, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by sortie

Stealing cable TV is a federal crime.

Fine, my hat is off to you Sir... and your country's laws never ceases to amaze me... still not theft though, "interference" is the word used.

Originally posted by gideongallery

so we are doing the false theft analogy again, re read the post above copyright infringement is not theft. There is no point in making any arguement but that.

Seems nothing whatsoever can stop anyone stuck in that belief from making that particular analogy over and over... You try to tell them for a while, I'm off to bed.

Last edited by Vixenator; 01-01-2009, 05:02 PM.

Watch this space...
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Vixenator

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#113

01-01-2009, 05:15 PM

err... make that "intercepting"... whatever. Bed. Now.

Watch this space...
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sortie

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#114

01-01-2009, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by Vixenator

Fine, my hat is off to you Sir... and your country's laws never ceases to amaze me... still not theft though, "interference" is the word used.

Funny how my country has this law and we are the ones doing all this fucking
creating.

What the fuck am I typing on and connecting to that was created in your country?

What kind of hip hop music does your youth create?

I haven't seen one of your country's great films lately.

I'm still waiting for that cool software from some country who's langauge I don't understand.

Still trying to get the communist release of Adobe Flash installed.

You don't create shit, you just steal ours.

Why?

Because there is no incentive to create anything in your country because it just
gets stolen.

Do you get it now?
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Kevin Marx

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#115

01-01-2009, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by gideongallery

again more than 50% of all torrent traffic is downloading tv shows
many of the movies that are downloaded are old enough that they have aired on tv

so right now a majority of people are using the pirate bay as a VCR.

50%.... really? where did you get that stat? I find it doubtable for some reason.

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Kevin Marx

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#116

01-01-2009, 05:54 PM

I still have this question floating around in my head that many of the sites that support/promote the downloading of these files are located outside of the US borders. Why are these sites not regulated at the borders? Literally there are only so many connections into the US. Shut em down if they don't comply.

Why is it that the US has so much trouble with enforcing our own laws inside of our own territories?

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sortie

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#117

01-01-2009, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by Kevin-SFBucks

Why is it that the US has so much trouble with enforcing our own laws inside of our own territories?

Because we don't want to over reach and over react and stiffle legitimate use.

We let some get way to avoid persecuting all.
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mynameisjim

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#118

01-01-2009, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by gideongallery

...

I'm too lazy to cut and paste the specific replies you made but just because you forgot to record a show doesn't give someone else the right to break the law and distribute copies illegally across the internet. You know, you need to carry some responsibility as odd as that may seem to a pirate.

jim (at) amateursconvert . com Amateurs Convert
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gideongallery

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#119

01-01-2009, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by mynameisjim

I'm too lazy to cut and paste the specific replies you made but just because you forgot to record a show doesn't give someone else the right to break the law and distribute copies illegally across the internet. You know, you need to carry some responsibility as odd as that may seem to a pirate.

again you are completely missing the point
they are not breaking the law AT ALL.
for the scope of a fair use (timeshifting in this case) all of your exclusive rights don't exist (not withstanding clause)

There is no copyright infringement ergo you are not breaking the law.

the friend who lent me a copy of knight rider in 1970 to watch at a timeshifted time, was not breaking the law. Neither is the 100s of friends who are letting me get a copy across the internet (via bit torrent)

in fact since none of those 1000s of people are ever giving me a working copy of the file
(if i played their pieces it would not work) it is less of a copyright infringement then lending me tape so i can get my favorite show.

“When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak
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gideongallery

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#120

01-01-2009, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by sortie

Funny how my country has this law and we are the ones doing all this fucking
creating.

What the fuck am I typing on and connecting to that was created in your country?

What kind of hip hop music does your youth create?

I haven't seen one of your country's great films lately.

I'm still waiting for that cool software from some country who's langauge I don't understand.

Still trying to get the communist release of Adobe Flash installed.

You don't create shit, you just steal ours.

Why?

Because there is no incentive to create anything in your country because it just
gets stolen.

Do you get it now?

two words anime and manga

“When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak
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TTiger

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#121

01-01-2009, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

The most amazing thing is how they think they are in the right to steal from other people. Some are very indignant that we should even think of stopping them from stealing and how clever they are at getting around the attempts of the content owners and Governments trying to stop them.

Here's the solution to Torrents and Tubes. Make it illegal for a US company to advertise on them and they will disappear over night. OK tough one to pass and won't happen, but it will show that these fighters for "Freedom of Speech" are nothing but opportunists trying to profit by promoting theft.

I bet they don't take kindly to people not paying the advertising bill.

the fact is i think that file sharing help the music industry but killing record industry ! lots of unknown artists has become very successful worldwide only with mp3 sharing on p2p systeme a goal they would never achieves in the normal mainstream system in fact all those band would stay unknown without the mp3 sharing. this is the same for tv series! some series are unavailable in some part of the world or just not play in the good time so you download the torrent! im speaking french and i download all the new series using torrent and bonus some pirates team are witting the subtitle so i can listen to californication/ sancturary/gossip girls in VOSTFR and take notice that those show are not avaible here in quebec.. so whats should i do if i want to watch them? wait 1- 2 years the time local tv buy the right to broadcast them? ot download the torrent and watch the show some hours after the broadcast.. the choice is pretty easy in my eyes!

in fact some media take advantage of p2p systems. the dark knight is breaking sales record worldwide. underground musician are becoming more and more successful everyday and only some rich crybaby are upset by p2p network but for sure some artist have their song distributed freely over p2p network but when they are touring they can see and touch the result! they don't selling that much record but the room where they play are loaded with fans who has listen to their mp3 for years!
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gideongallery

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#122

01-01-2009, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by Kevin-SFBucks

50%.... really? where did you get that stat? I find it doubtable for some reason.

don't want to waste time flooding the thread with the arguement again

http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showthread.php?t=869765

go to this thread it one of multiple ones where i pointed out exactly where the numbers came from
and explained why the multiple reasons that people like robbie and barefooties use to claim i was making up the numbers were totally false.

The only people who are making up numbers are the guys who keep saying that "99% of people are using torrents to steal"

the fact is the lowest number is 49.64% the highest is 60% (MPAA study)

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#123

01-01-2009, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by gideongallery

don't want to waste time flooding the thread with the arguement again

http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showthread.php?t=869765

go to this thread it one of multiple ones where i pointed out exactly where the numbers came from
and explained why the multiple reasons that people like robbie and barefooties use to claim i was making up the numbers were totally false.

The only people who are making up numbers are the guys who keep saying that "99% of people are using torrents to steal"

the fact is the lowest number is 49.64% the highest is 60% (MPAA study)

I dont understand why you come here.Arent there bit torrent boards out there? What exactly do you do in adult? To see someone give your sweat and blood away. Work that costs money to produce sucks.
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#124

01-01-2009, 06:58 PM

7
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gideongallery

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#125

01-01-2009, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by tony404

I dont understand why you come here.Arent there bit torrent boards out there? What exactly do you do in adult? To see someone give your sweat and blood away. Work that costs money to produce sucks.

That is exactly why i suggested setting up a private tracker

you control your membership list
you know who has a right to your content.

Granting your members and only your members the right to use torrents as a fair use access tool (backup recovery timeshifting) would allow you to get rid of all the other torrents out there legally.

The point you seem to be making is that because some people are using the torrents for illegitimate purposes, (caused by your refuse to fulfill your members fair use right to the content) you should have a right to stop everyone from using it (including those who are using it for legal uses).

Your rights end the second my rights begin.

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#126

01-01-2009, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by gideongallery

That is exactly why i suggested setting up a private tracker

you control your membership list
you know who has a right to your content.

Granting your members and only your members the right to use torrents as a fair use access tool (backup recovery timeshifting) would allow you to get rid of all the other torrents out there legally.

The point you seem to be making is that because some people are using the torrents for illegitimate purposes, (caused by your refuse to fulfill your members fair use right to the content) you should have a right to stop everyone from using it (including those who are using it for legal uses).

Your rights end the second my rights begin.

This didnt answer the questions I asked you. lol
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Kevin Marx

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#127

01-01-2009, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by gideongallery

again you are completely missing the point
they are not breaking the law AT ALL.
for the scope of a fair use (timeshifting in this case) all of your exclusive rights don't exist (not withstanding clause)

There is no copyright infringement ergo you are not breaking the law.

the friend who lent me a copy of knight rider in 1970 to watch at a timeshifted time, was not breaking the law. Neither is the 100s of friends who are letting me get a copy across the internet (via bit torrent)

in fact since none of those 1000s of people are ever giving me a working copy of the file
(if i played their pieces it would not work) it is less of a copyright infringement then lending me tape so i can get my favorite show.

I think the fallacy in the timeshifting argument is that You.... and those with rights akin to you have a timeshifting right. Where in that right does it allow you to distribute to others that don't have that right?

By not restricting that distribution, you are committing copyright violation.

Distributing a show such as Knight Rider where the overall audience was what??? 2 million per episode is different that distributing membership based photos and videos where the paying audience is under 50K or under 5K.

Your timeshifting for yourself, not for your friends or for the general public when the delivered materials were not delivered such as the free materials you use as support of your argument. Store all the backups you like. no problem with that. share with others that have the same rights as you, no problem with that as well (as they are paying customers also). The problem is when the file gets delivered to a non-paying customer that has no right to it. I have put controls on the content/files to ensure that only paying customers have access to it. Where do you as a paying customer have a right to allow unrestricted access to a produced work?

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Kevin Marx

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#128

01-01-2009, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by gideongallery

That is exactly why i suggested setting up a private tracker

you control your membership list
you know who has a right to your content.

Granting your members and only your members the right to use torrents as a fair use access tool (backup recovery timeshifting) would allow you to get rid of all the other torrents out there legally.

The point you seem to be making is that because some people are using the torrents for illegitimate purposes, (caused by your refuse to fulfill your members fair use right to the content) you should have a right to stop everyone from using it (including those who are using it for legal uses).

Your rights end the second my rights begin.

I doubt that setting up a storage option of my own would encourage the courts to see that I am providing an alternative to other storage options and therefore the rest are illegitimate.

Hey Mr. Judge.. I invented the Betamax to make sure that my customers have a 100% foolproof option to backup the stuff they buy from me, so you can make sure they don't use that VHS thingy, right? Or wait.. you can make sure that they don't seed on PirateBay? Or share my stuff on YouPorn? Gee thanks. I appreciate that.

I don't have an interest in the people stopping using torrents for legitimate purposes, I have an interest in stopping them from using them for illegitimate purposes. If that requires all usage of such to stop until a viable protected alternative is found, so be it.

Why must you get your missed shows from torrents rather than using a VCR or DVR like normal people anyway? How much TV do you watch?

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#129

01-01-2009, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

The most amazing thing is how they think they are in the right to steal from other people. Some are very indignant that we should even think of stopping them from stealing and how clever they are at getting around the attempts of the content owners and Governments trying to stop them.

Here's the solution to Torrents and Tubes. Make it illegal for a US company to advertise on them and they will disappear over night. OK tough one to pass and won't happen, but it will show that these fighters for "Freedom of Speech" are nothing but opportunists trying to profit by promoting theft.

I bet they don't take kindly to people not paying the advertising bill.

It's amazing to me that the end user doesn't understand a basic concept.

If they don't give some money to the people that create their beloved product, it may just dry up eventually.
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#130

01-01-2009, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Kevin-SFBucks

Why must you get your missed shows from torrents rather than using a VCR or DVR like normal people anyway? How much TV do you watch?

Let me step in here on behalf of gideongallery.

You see Kevin, gideongallery is a funny kind of guy. He just loves to watch television CONSTANTLY in the basement at his parents' house where he is living until he graduates. He has even created a "torrent recorder" which can actually "record" the links on a torrent site! I don't even understand why a person would want to watch a text link to a stolen video. But gideon loves torrents with such a passion that he does. Sort of like a person who sits in front of the television and watches the Guide channel all day.

Gideongallery is also a guy who sells a mystery software online. He makes his money selling it to interested parties. However, he can't tell anybody what his product is...or his website on which he sells his product. Much like pussyserver, gideongallery is a true marketing genius as well as an expert on the Sony Betamax court case.

But most of all...gideongallery is Canadian.

Does that pretty much clear it all up?

-Robbie
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gideongallery

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#131

01-01-2009, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Kevin-SFBucks

I think the fallacy in the timeshifting argument is that You.... and those with rights akin to you have a timeshifting right. Where in that right does it allow you to distribute to others that don't have that right?

for a show like heroes (basic cable aired show) 99.5% of the torrenting community has a timeshifting right. .5% does not.
Arguing that we should take away the right to use torrents from the 99.5% of the population because .5% are using it illegal is the same as saying that we should stop people from using a VCR because you could use it to make illegal copies of movies.

The law does not support that interpretation (if it did universal would have one the betamax case)

By not restricting that distribution, you are committing copyright violation.

But bit torrent technlogy does restrict the distribution, I am never giving that .5% a fully working copy.

If they played the pieces i gave them, it would not work.

It is only when they put my pieces with the pieces they have gotten from a thousand other sources that they have an illegal working copy.

The transaction that creates the illegal copy happens on the infringers machine
not on the network,
not on the tracker,
and not on my machine.

Distributing a show such as Knight Rider where the overall audience was what??? 2 million per episode is different that distributing membership based photos and videos where the paying audience is under 50K or under 5K.

that just a difference in market size, fair use rights don't disappear because it a smaller market. The reality is that knight rider cost a hell of a lot more to produce then a video which turns a profit with an audience of 50k so i would say that right to stop timeshifting should be greater for the more expensive content. The problem is that the law is written to respect all fair use. The law is written so that fair use supercedes your exclusive rights. It doesn't matter if your audience is 2 million or 5k fair use still exists.

Your timeshifting for yourself, not for your friends or for the general public when the delivered materials were not delivered such as the free materials you use as support of your argument. Store all the backups you like. no problem with that. share with others that have the same rights as you, no problem with that as well (as they are paying customers also). The problem is when the file gets delivered to a non-paying customer that has no right to it. I have put controls on the content/files to ensure that only paying customers have access to it. Where do you as a paying customer have a right to allow unrestricted access to a produced work?

ok so how exactly am i going to know which people bought your content,
are you giving me all their private information
are you going to violate their privacy.

You are the only one who can setup a torrent system that would restrict access to your members

[SIZE="5"]Hense my suggest about setting up a private tracker[/SIZE

basically your saying

"I could restrict torrent access to only those who do have a timeshifting right by setting up a private tracker for my former members

You can't restrict access to my customer only because i am the only one who knows who those people are

So i want to prevent everyone, including the people i admitted have a timeshifting right to use torrent from using torrents"

it another example of your rights end where mine begin. By refusing to provide a private tracker, you create a situation where the only way the torrent based timeshifters can have the right they are entitled too is to allow people who might not have a right potential access.

You still have a legal right to try and figuire out those people identities and sue them.

All i am saying is unless you are willing to meet your fair use responsibilites to your members, you have no right to stop people from using the technology for legal purposes.

“When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak
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#132

01-01-2009, 08:32 PM

I thought about it gideon is right,time shifting is the way to go.
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Robbie

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#133

01-01-2009, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by tony404

I thought about it gideon is right,time shifting is the way to go.

Hell yes! I'm not EVER watching anything again in real time. I simply can't. No longer will I buy a PPV boxing or MMA match. They usually suck anyway, and the fighters are way overpaid. I'll just download it on a torrent after I'm done working at night.

And if I do actually buy the PPV, I'm still not gonna watch it as it happens. Instead, I am going to record it on my DVR. Then I'm gonna disconnect that from my television and bring it into my office and capture the video. Then I'm gonna turn it into a torrent.

Then I'm gonna upload it to The P.B.

Then I'm going to download it back and watch it on my computer screen.

Just look at all the time I saved and how convenient that is! Thanks gideongallery for showing me the light brother!

-Robbie
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gideongallery

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#134

01-01-2009, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by Kevin-SFBucks

I doubt that setting up a storage option of my own would encourage the courts to see that I am providing an alternative to other storage options and therefore the rest are illegitimate.

Hey Mr. Judge.. I invented the Betamax to make sure that my customers have a 100% foolproof option to backup the stuff they buy from me, so you can make sure they don't use that VHS thingy, right? Or wait.. you can make sure that they don't seed on PirateBay? Or share my stuff on YouPorn? Gee thanks. I appreciate that.

but that is exactly what the courts ruled.
A dvd copying software used DeCSS to remove the copy protection from all dvd it copied.
The court ruled the technology was illegal because the companies provided a free licienced code called CSS Decrypt.

CSS DEcrypt allowed you to copy from the original but it added code to the header that pevented CSS DEcrypt software from copying from a copy.

Back up rights were fully provided for, and the company software (stripping out all copyright protection) was ruled to be illegal.

When they argued the same case against open source rippers ( CSS Decrypt licience does not release source code access) they failed because they didn't fully provide for those fair use rights (the only way to use the CSS Decrypt was to not be open source)

your use betamax stop VCR arguement is the second example, my private tracker example is the first. The pirate bay could still list your torrents on their site, it would just point to your tracker instead.

I don't have an interest in the people stopping using torrents for legitimate purposes, I have an interest in stopping them from using them for illegitimate purposes. If that requires all usage of such to stop until a viable protected alternative is found, so be it.

if that were true you would at least try setting up a private tracker BEFORE arguing the entire technology should be stopped

Why must you get your missed shows from torrents rather than using a VCR or DVR like normal people anyway? How much TV do you watch?

most of my favorite shows air on the same day across the same times(monday). Torrents allow me to get them all and watch them thru out the week.

i would have to buy/rent multiple pvr to accomplish the same benefit.
Torrents allow me to jump on board a show that my friends recommend even though i have missed the first couple episodes (my own worst enemy)

And while the PVRs have done nothing to combat the lost revenue that they cause by timeshifting content (none of the ads count to neilsen)
at least the torrent community is working on solutions to monitize their distribution
http://blog.mininova.org/articles/20...ew-technology/

i went over reasons i use torrents vs a pvr in this post

basically
Torrents are more efficient
torrents are trying to create a revenue stream to replace the lost adverting revenue

PVR are inferior
PVR are doing nothing to replace the lost revenue from timeshifting

Hense i choose to support torrents.

“When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak
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#135

01-01-2009, 09:47 PM

I'd love to see this in the headlines of mainstream media

Penthouse/AFF Going Broke But Funding The Biggest Pirate Torrent Site On The Internet

Fuck it I might even start emailing some media outlets and let them know
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#136

01-01-2009, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by gideongallery

blah-blah-blah

I am looking forward to reading your post gideon

But at the moment, I have sworn off reading posts in real time. I am currently in the process of turning your words into a torrent. Then after I have uploaded it and waited an hour or so for the time to shift, I will read it. Your words truly are the future...or at least they will be until I download them and read them from the gideongallery bit torrent I created.

And just in case you're wondering...NO, I did not post this in real time.

I invented a Torrent Player to compliment your Torrent Recorder. So I converted this reply into a bit torrent and uploaded it to P.B. and then time shifted my post and set the Torrent Player to post it at 11 p.m. Pacific Time

Pure efficiency at it's best.

-Robbie
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#137

01-01-2009, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

Here's the solution to Torrents and Tubes. Make it illegal for a US company to advertise on them and they will disappear over night. OK tough one to pass and won't happen, but it will show that these fighters for "Freedom of Speech" are nothing but opportunists trying to profit by promoting theft.

Kinda like, actually prosecuting American companies for hiring illegal aliens?

....
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#138

01-01-2009, 10:58 PM

How can so many people be so ignorant on this subject?

Torrents are not illegal. A torrent is simply a way to transfer data.

Seriously, why don't you all continue to keep your heads up your asses. Here's an idea for you backassward thinkers.

Go after Eugene Roshal since some people use rar files for copyright infringement.

Oh, or how about Comcast, since they allow "thieves" to use their internet connection?

Maybe Linksys, since they sell modems that people use.

Even Seagate, since people store "stolen" goods on their hard drives.
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V_RocKs

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#139

01-01-2009, 11:02 PM

If theft didn't exist, Photoshop would cost $39.95 and be sold at Best Buy and Walmart.

And a gallon of milk would cost 75 cents...

On average 17 items must be sold to make a profit due to theft. Obviously certain industries have .0001 liability of theft occurring. And certain others like software have a 99.99% rate of theft occurring.
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#140

01-01-2009, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by V_RocKs

If theft didn't exist, Photoshop would cost $39.95 and be sold at Best Buy and Walmart.

And a gallon of milk would cost 75 cents...

On average 17 items must be sold to make a profit due to theft. Obviously certain industries have .0001 liability of theft occurring. And certain others like software have a 99.99% rate of theft occurring.

It's not theft. Theft is stealing. Downloading a copy of data from someone else who is giving it to you is not stealing. It's copyright infringement.
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#141

01-02-2009, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by Carmine Raguso

I was waiting for someone to chime in regarding that comment.

I never said it would be easy to get a law making it illegal to advertise on sites. I was pointing out that these sites exist for one reason. To make money. Make it hard for them to make money and they disappear.

I suppose I should post the most obvious things so those who don't think can follow me.

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#142

01-02-2009, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by pigman

Copying is not stealing.

Yes it is when it steals peoples jobs.

As for all the legal blah blah so far. My idea of making it illegal to advertise on these sites has far more chance of working. You're dreaming about these sites getting made illegal.

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#143

01-02-2009, 01:45 AM

Piratebay won't stop any time soon. Trust me on this one.

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#144

01-02-2009, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

Yes it is when it steals peoples jobs.

As for all the legal blah blah so far. My idea of making it illegal to advertise on these sites has far more chance of working. You're dreaming about these sites getting made illegal.

No it's not stealing. That is the loophole that most people can't seem to get their heads around. These sites are staying until that loophole is covered up. End of story.

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Paul Markham

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#145

01-02-2009, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by leek

Actually, I believe they profit from advertising revenues.

Stopping advertising is the only sure fire way of shutting them down. All the other suggestions are useless.

Will record and film companies go after those breaking copyright laws?
Will it make any difference if they do?
Will making the model PB have of sharing links, illegal in one country stop them moving to another?

The answer to all of the above is no. But if the US made it illegal to advertise on sites with links to illegal content they would go in a week. Without advertising revenue they become unprofitable.

I'm not saying it's easy, but it has more chance of working than anything else.

However if you think your business model of selling a 30 day membership to a guy who can get off on Torrent downloads you're doing something very wrong.

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Paul Markham

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#146

01-02-2009, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by scottybuzz

No it's not stealing. That is the loophole that most people can't seem to get their heads around. These sites are staying until that loophole is covered up. End of story.

Dream on about it being covered by the whole world.

And dream on about it being enforced.

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#147

01-02-2009, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by Carmine Raguso

Data is considered a tangible item. It is held. Maybe not by you as a person but the hard drive or CD or whatever media you are downloading it to does in fact HOLD it. Tangible in a 21st century kind of way.

People work very hard to produce entertainment and efficiency programs for this planet. Not because they like you, but because they feel people need it or like it, and they want to make MONEY like everyone here does.

When you steal CARS.... BOATS.... DIAMONDS.... DATA you are more more less stealing their hard work and benefitting from it. People that link to it are an accessory to the crime.

If I (I meaning The Pirate Bay, for arguments purposes) pointed out to you that I know where you can go steal a Ferrari (this will be the torrent Grand Theft Auto 4) and the KEYS were inside, doors unlocked (this will be used as the crack that comes along with the torrent which allows you to circumnavigate buying the game and using it illegally) and I drew you a map on how to get there (TPB providing the link), do you not think that there would be a crime involved with accessorizing or aiding a criminal?

In lamens terms, data IS tangible.

You're entitled to your own definition of it. That's what's great about GFY, opinions are like assholes and there are soooo many assholes here..
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#148

01-02-2009, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by crockett

It doesn't matter if it's a "tangable" or not.. It has a value placed on it, by it's owner. Just because it's a bunch of 1's & 0's on a computer's hard drive doesn't mean it's any less valuable than a car you can touch.

So if I placed a value of $1,000,000 on that fresh pile of crap I just laid in your backyard and you just stepped in, would you be liable for damage of property or would I? Hmm..
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#149

01-02-2009, 02:11 AM

Originally posted by Vixenator

OK, once and for all: To steal something means that you cause someone else to physically lose it. If you steal a car the owner no longer has a car... if you use your magic replicating machine to materialize an exact copy of someone's car out of thin air, he or she still has a car and the car manufacturer loses potential profit, by not selling you another car. Naturally, if you make cars, that sucks and you've been cheated... but it still ISN'T "theft" in the traditional sense, because no one can steal something that doesn't exist yet, in this case your potential profit from selling that other car.

It's bad and wrong and we all want it to go away... but please let's not oversimplify the issue by calling it simply "stealing", ok? If it was that clear cut, don't you think it would be better regulated by now?

It's great though, there are so many closet lawmakers and politicians here on GFY, I wonder why the UN doesn't just disassemble itself and let these bozos take over??
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#150

01-02-2009, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by sortie

So the actual musicians who made the instrumentals for the hip hop artist don't get paid.

And DJ's don't pay for instumentals so they can make live mixes.

OK.

Thanks

And what about the tree who was cut probably in its prime to make the instruments, there are satyrs and nymphs still weeping over its demise. Who will make amends to the trees eh? Hmmm, justice is so one sided sometimes. Justice for the trees, give back the wood!!
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