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#1

who thinks GM should be bailed out?

11-13-2008, 04:59 AM

not me - i think the GM situation is the perfect symbol for the dawn of a new era - no bailout, let the union and GM figure out a way to survive and if they can't - buh bye, they both fail. god knows how much the CEO and directors have stashed away.

banks shouldn't have been bailed out either - i see they're now fighting in Congress - they don't even fucking know what to do with the hundreds of billions. one thing I know is that a good percentage of it will get into the wrong hands.

what a mess. nobody has a clue. that's the worst part of getting older - you realize that nobody really knows anything.

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#2

11-13-2008, 05:00 AM

no, auto companies have done this to themself.

they purposefully have held back tenchology and pushed things like gas guzzling SUVs instead of th8inking about the future.

fuck em

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#3

11-13-2008, 05:02 AM

no way let them go chap 11 and hopefully figure out how to change with times and if they cant fuck them.

its not like a bailout = ok they will be good for now, its simply pushing off the big disaster.

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#4

11-13-2008, 05:21 AM

sad that most of these companies getting bailed out do not deserve it. Maybe the corporate leadership should have given up those massive bonuses and lavish salaries they doled upon themselves .

Would be nice to see the govt. bail out the underdog for once... never happen.
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#5

11-13-2008, 05:28 AM

No bailouts to anyone. Pity the bankers got one.

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#6

11-13-2008, 05:32 AM

maybe they don't but 250,000 people they employ sure deserve it and the machine shops they use to make parts they deserve it and the countless other suppliers that they keep in business, oh and don't forget the families of all these people who depend on them to survive I think they deserve it as well

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#7

11-13-2008, 05:41 AM

I want to know what happened to the people who were claiming the Government should stay out of business and let them run themselves.

This is the rescue package I think will work best. Give all the people earning over $250,000 a year a big tax cut so they can save $20,000 in taxes each year. Which they will use to but a new car. Or yacht or plane or a BMW.

GM have to be rescued and there is no options. The pity is the fools who think business should be left to run itself. This is what got us into this mess. They did not make the cars needed and shipped jobs over seas.

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#8

11-13-2008, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by Chauncy

maybe they don't but 250,000 people they employ sure deserve it and the machine shops they use to make parts they deserve it and the countless other suppliers that they keep in business, oh and don't forget the families of all these people who depend on them to survive I think they deserve it as well

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#9

11-13-2008, 05:46 AM

they estimate that close to one million people would be unemployed in the trickle down of a GM bankruptcy. even if they bail GM out there are going to be a ton of people out of work as they close plants. and those that retain their jobs will be making a lot less.

Obama will bail them out - he campaigned promising to help the auto industry, the union and all of Michigan supported him.

i still think there shouldn't be a bailout. nobody is going to learn anything from this with these bail out band-aid solutions and it will just prolong the suffering for the whole country - can't keep passing the buck - no more bucks left.

if they do bail GM out - the CEO should be paid no more than $100,000 - i'm sure he's got millions, but he's a failure - pay him like the failure he is.

nobody's ashamed anymore of owing other people money and not being able to pay it back - that's why we're in this mess.

Last edited by Mutt; 11-13-2008, 05:47 AM.

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#10

11-13-2008, 05:48 AM

I do not, nor do I think any of the fatcat banks should be eighter

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#11

11-13-2008, 05:49 AM

The problem with these kind of bailouts, is they defy the market. If the market thinks that GM is a bag of shit, then let the market take care of it. By giving GM, or an airline, or a bank, billions of public money you are masking what the markets are telling you.

Best solution for GM (I think) -- Transfer all production to Asia, and do some assembly in the local markets with a much smaller workforce. Also, provide credit to Chinese consumers for Chinese built cars.

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#12

11-13-2008, 05:57 AM

and he lies the the catch 22.

Don't bail them out and let a million people lose their jobs, economy would feel the ripple effect of this. Unemployment would further skyrocket. I am peronally for this option but then again, I would probably be singing a different tune if I or anyone I knew worked in the auto industry.

Bail them out, in another 8 months as the economy still struggles they will ask for more money. People still have jobs in the meantime which is sending revenue back into the economy.

Tough call that I wouldnt want to have to make. This is why the president gets the big bucks. As a tax payer I am pissed that I am supporting these fucks when their CEO's will make more in 1 year than I will make in my entire lifetime.

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#13

11-13-2008, 06:04 AM

That money could be better used to retrain auto workers to learn new skills and trades.

The US auto industry is failing because of their own lack of innovation. The tax payers chose to put those companies out of work when they bought Hondas and Toyotas. Why should they pay more to keep people working for businesses that can't profit?

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#14

11-13-2008, 06:11 AM

Companies have gone through Chapter 11 and come out of it before. Chapter 11 gives companies the ability to re-write contracts. Why do the Democrats not want this to happen -- because it'll break the back of the unions. Without re-writing those contracts it's a bail out to just give them more time to ship our jobs overseas.

I'd be more open to a bail out of the auto industry if they forced whoever gets a bail out to have to employ Americans at 80% their work force, including their vendors in future contracts.
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#15

11-13-2008, 06:17 AM

Originally posted by Brad Gosse

The tax payers chose to put those companies out of work when they bought Hondas and Toyotas. Why should they pay more to keep people working for businesses that can't profit?

Well said. if the tax payers who will be paying off the billions borrowed from the Chinese to bailout GM had faith in them, and their products, they would have bought GM products in the first place.

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#16

11-13-2008, 06:24 AM

If they would have dispersed the trillion dollar bailout to every American Citizen, I think that would have stimulated the economy a lot more than giving it to the thugs that are out having a spending spree like the good ole times. These people didn't need a bailout, they wanted a hand out...fuckem

After all, it is taxpayers money and if anyone needs a bailout or fresh start, it's the taxpaying citizens.

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#17

11-13-2008, 06:29 AM

Originally posted by JFK

I do not, nor do I think any of the fatcat banks should be eighter

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#18

11-13-2008, 06:58 AM

Absolutely not. Organizations that refuse to change along with market and other economic and social factors deserve to die.

I'm not concerened about the employees, either. The big three should make deals with the other manufacturers that aren't dinosaurs, and sell their factories and current lines of business to them. At least some of the current employees would be able to keep their jobs.

The big thing - no more unions. Fuck labor unions.
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#19

11-13-2008, 07:22 AM

GM is the perfect case study for how the modern union has destroyed industry... Fuck em.
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#20

11-13-2008, 07:28 AM

not me.

Here is the solution.

With GM.
1) Go to Chapter 11.
2) Fire the management, get someone who knows how to manage.
3) Tell the Union, sorry, contract dissolved.
a) Give the Union workers the same privelages, as Toyota and Honda.

With Ford.
1) Go to Chapter 11.
2) Keep the CEO, fire the rest.
3) Tell the Union, sorry, contract dissolved.
a) Give the Union workers the same privelages, as Toyota and Honda.

With Chrysler
1) Sorry you got into a bad investment, you need to sell, or get more cash from your Hedge Fund.
2) Fire the CEO
3) Tell the Union, sorry, contract dissolved.
a) Give the Union workers the same privelages, as Toyota and Honda.

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#21

11-13-2008, 07:29 AM

we're only taxpayers.

it doesn't matter what we think.

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#22

11-13-2008, 07:31 AM

Give the money to the estimated 2.5 mil people who could lose their jobs on account of GM going under as a "severance package" and kiss GM goodbye.

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#23

11-13-2008, 07:31 AM

The auto industry's problems are self inflicted. Piss poor planning, lack of vision and over paid management.

The writing was on the wall in the 70s and 80s. Build smaller, more fuel efficient cars/trucks. The big 3 auto makers ignored this and continued to build big, gas guzzling cars. To add insult to injury, the auto makers wanted to sell 1 car and make 'x' thousands of profit per vehicle instead of selling 10 cars and make 'x' hundreds of profit. The more product you move cheaper, the more profit you make. Wal-Mart is a perfect example.

NO CEO should be getting 25 million a year when the company is going down the shitter.

The only was this could work is if their are major strings attached. NO money is to be used to pay management. GM is required to build smaller, fuel efficient vehicles in 5 years. Change the business model. The Tax payers are part owners in GM (Since its our money), Upper management gets cleaned out. The money can only be used to help the blue collar workers.

NO one buys GM cars because they are over priced. They are too big. They break down too often. They cost a fortune to repair. They get shit for gas mileage.

I Love my Honda CR-V. It was much cheaper than anything American. Gets good mileage for a SUV. Its not costing a fortune to put gas in. Doesn't break down.(Knock on wood). It does not require the same amount of maintenance as an American car.

The writing was on the wall years ago, the management of GM chose to ignore the writing and now they have to pay for their stupidity.

Last edited by SuzzyQ; 11-13-2008, 07:35 AM.
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#24

11-13-2008, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by Twistys Tim

Best solution for GM (I think) -- Transfer all production to Asia, and do some assembly in the local markets with a much smaller workforce. Also, provide credit to Chinese consumers for Chinese built cars.

you want to transfer jobs overseas?

Besides being the opposite of one of Obamas campaign promises, it will make our situation worse. I think this guy has the right idea http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122628230122212449.html

Originally posted by fusionx

I'm not concerened about the employees, either. The big three should make deals with the other manufacturers that aren't dinosaurs, and sell their factories and current lines of business to them. At least some of the current employees would be able to keep their jobs.

You should be, those are your customers

Last edited by smax; 11-13-2008, 07:59 AM.
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#25

11-13-2008, 08:01 AM

These bailouts to the people or to the company will cause massive inflation. NO NO NO more bail outs.
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#26

11-13-2008, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by fuzebox

GM is the perfect case study for how the modern union has destroyed industry... Fuck em.

sad but true!

Unions today always ask for more to give less in return.

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#27

11-13-2008, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by smax

you want to transfer jobs overseas?

This is about GM survival, not what I think is right or wrong. To make a product they can sell and make money from, they have to lower their manufacturing costs. The biggest problem GM is facing, is that their operating / manufacturing costs are high, and getting higher. When the market takes a dip, those costs erode all the profit. By reducing the operaing costs, by having the product manufactured in Asia and assembled in the local market(s) they could reduce the operating costs and also retain a local work force.

It is the survival of the fittest.

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#28

11-13-2008, 08:12 AM

Let GM fail, i vote no on the bail out.

sure it sucks for employees if they loose their jobs, but thats how things are these days nothing is guaranteed and they should go back and bitch to the big wigs at GM for doing this

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smax

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#29

11-13-2008, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by Twistys Tim

This is about GM survival, not what I think is right or wrong. To make a product they can sell and make money from, they have to lower their manufacturing costs. The biggest problem GM is facing, is that their operating / manufacturing costs are high, and getting higher. When the market takes a dip, those costs erode all the profit. By reducing the operaing costs, by having the product manufactured in Asia and assembled in the local market(s) they could reduce the operating costs and also retain a local work force.

It is the survival of the fittest.

There are many things they can to lower manufacturing costs besides shipping production overseas. The problem we the US are facing with this is the failure of GM = loss of several hundreds of thousands of jobs in a tiring economy which has the highest unemployment numbers 14 years. Taking more jobs and shipping them overseas is akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If public dollars are the only way to keep General Motors afloat, as the company contends, a complete restructuring under a government overseer or oversight board has to be the price and that includes renegotiating all UAW contracts.
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#30

11-13-2008, 08:46 AM

In Chapter 11 a company can renegotiate contracts, they don't in bail outs. And I just don't trust government oversight or oversight boards when they can't even report what they've done with our tax dollars, or even get a board together.
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#31

11-13-2008, 08:51 AM

DHL is laying off 9k people... How many Does GM employ?? I dont think the economy can handle 20k more people with no jobs.

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#32

11-13-2008, 08:58 AM

definitely not!
No more bailouts!
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#33

11-13-2008, 09:08 AM

Greed killed the economy.

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#34

11-13-2008, 09:09 AM

one of my neighbours works at GM, on the line, unskilled labour. He got offered the buy out, a large chunk of cash, whopping credit towards a new vehicle and he gets out in about a month.

For weeks prior to the decision time, he was whining and carrying on, about how he doesnt know whether to take the buy out or not.

Every time the discussion came up my self and other neighbours were rolling their eyes in disgust, about the fucking idiot even thinking 1 sec and NOT running and accepting the deal. How many other firms, industries get the same opportunity, to walk away and retire?

Most of the working class has to work till they are 65 then retire on a meager pension. What gives someone like a line worker, with no skills, the right to walk away with 65% of his salary till retirement age, then have the gall to bitch about it ?

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#35

11-13-2008, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Mutt

not me - i think the GM situation is the perfect symbol for the dawn of a new era - no bailout, let the union and GM figure out a way to survive and if they can't - buh bye, they both fail. god knows how much the CEO and directors have stashed away.

banks shouldn't have been bailed out either - i see they're now fighting in Congress - they don't even fucking know what to do with the hundreds of billions. one thing I know is that a good percentage of it will get into the wrong hands.

what a mess. nobody has a clue. that's the worst part of getting older - you realize that nobody really knows anything.

Yeah they should fail and all Americans should have to drive Japanese cars

The whole situation sucks, sure....but if you want to set off the next Great Depression, let 3 million people lose their jobs and health insurance on the same day.

Unlike what Paulson has done with the bank bailout though, there should be lots and lots of strings attached. There needs to be a way for taxpayers to get their money back, and GM needs to agree not to lay off anymore workers in exchange for getting the loans.

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#36

11-13-2008, 10:34 AM

Keep GM, get the hell rid of Chrysler/Dodge! the only thing I like is the viper and I think they sold that so fuck it they can go!

I mean GM make some good cars+they have a lot of 4 cylinder small fuel efficient cars they make in europe they could build in US.

for chrysler there is no hope!!!
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#37

11-13-2008, 10:39 AM

As long as we have car companies running their ads like "when you turn on your car, does it return the favor?" then we are going to have shitty cars sold on sex appeal and companies operating in the red asking for a hand out. This corporate welfare state bullshit has got to end.

If "we" bail them out, are "we" going to demand any changes? Or do we still just want horsepower and 40 cup holders? Duh.

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#38

11-13-2008, 10:41 AM

I say bail them out once mostly because if GM went bankrupt, it would basically be the end of America as we know it. Unemployment would be so high people would be lucky if they can find jobs pumping gas or working at mcdonalds. Bail them out once, and if they still fail to get with the times and compete with the japs, then bye bye.

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#39

11-13-2008, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by ottyhotties

In Chapter 11 a company can renegotiate contracts, they don't in bail outs. And I just don't trust government oversight or oversight boards when they can't even report what they've done with our tax dollars, or even get a board together.

when you file chapter 11 a judge controls everything, so you don;t trust the government to bring in people with an oversight board to try and right the wayward giant, but you'll trust some 5th circuit judge?
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#40

11-13-2008, 10:50 AM

Its time for a new technology to dominate the transportation industry....
Let them go down... We will all get over it

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#41

11-13-2008, 10:58 AM

Bailout, no. But I think a loan from the feds to the automaker's isn't such a bad idea because most of the banks are too afraid to take on that kind of debt. The automakers really need to shape up though, the unions are killing them.
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#42

11-13-2008, 11:03 AM

I think they have to be bailed out, the number of unemployed workers would exceed 1MM. 1 million+ people out of work would cause a meltdown and put the US into a depression...

Plus it would be a big trickle down effect, many other countries would feel the pinch especially companies that supply to the big 3. We have several in our area and that would push the total number of unemployed into a new stratosphere.

Don't get me wrong, I think there has to be some accountability but I think intervention is the only thing that will save these companies.
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#43

11-13-2008, 11:21 AM

I think they should file bankruptcy and put a new management in place first. you know all these banks that get the 700 billion aid are still giving out bonuses. are you kidding me? obama wants 50 billion for the autos. I hope he has a good plan. cause this is just getting to be silly season.

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#44

11-13-2008, 11:24 AM

Only bail them out if they agree to stop producing inferior products and fucking move forward.
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#45

11-13-2008, 11:38 AM

Absolutely not. one minute they're talking about merging with ford, then next minute their looking for bailouts.. A bailout isn't going to help.. If GM gets money to stay afloat, yet the rest of the country is still suffering and has no $$ to buy new cars, then GM is going to fall anyway.. No use in trying to prevent the inevitable... It's just a stop gap measure
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#46

11-13-2008, 11:45 AM

Socialism is the new capitalism

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#47

11-13-2008, 11:51 AM

hell no they should not be... unless the taxpayers can bail me out and cover my tax bills every year if i dont save enough or reinvest too much and have no cash
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#48

11-13-2008, 11:54 AM

First it was banks, now it's GM, next month it will be some other industry...

a case could be made that just about any industry is critical to the us economy... if microsoft was failing for example, it could be argued that millions of businesses depend on microsoft products, so ms has to be bailed out...

These bailout just set a bad precedent and teach management of companies bad lessons... "don't worry about planning, take all the risk you want, if you screw up, you will be bailed out anyway"...

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#49

11-13-2008, 12:04 PM

of course not, but if GM doesnt get bailed out, wonder how many people will go jobless.

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Snake Doctor

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Join Date: Mar 2001

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#50

11-13-2008, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by WiredGuy

Bailout, no. But I think a loan from the feds to the automaker's isn't such a bad idea because most of the banks are too afraid to take on that kind of debt. The automakers really need to shape up though, the unions are killing them.
WG

It's not the unions that are killing them, it's the fact that they still wanted to build SUV's when everyone wanted to buy a hybrid. Those decisions are made by management, not the union.

They are burdened by health care costs for retirees....but that has nothing to do with today's union workers, those were concessions made by management in decades past, who decided to promise future benefits in order to get wage concessions today. They had higher profits back then as a result of those deals, and now those chickens have come home to roost.

Anyways, back on point, I don't think the unions are the problem.....that being said, health care reform in this country would be something of a bail out for GM. I can't think of another company that would benefit more from that. So let's hope they get that done too.

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