Europe's economy is FUCKED. Who do YOU blame? - GoFuckYourself.com - Adult Webmaster Forum

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v4 media

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#51

10-07-2008, 03:38 AM

Spain's not that fucked, the banks haven't got crazy amounts of bad debt. They're actually buying up failing Euro banks on the cheap.
House prices have gone up like mad for years, a slowing of the economy isn't a bad thing.
Alot of the unskilled workforce is migrant so they will just move on.
A drop in the euro is good, it was way too high.
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#52

10-07-2008, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by Ross

Its everyones fault. All the greedy European bankers who put so much of their business in the USA coz for years it was the most profitable. The USA have their own problems and now Europe does. Its a domino effect but its not entirely the fault of the USA. Greed is the biggest problem here.

A funny thing, if the american banks were better regulated this would never have happened.
So its not really hard to see why we blame the US ;D

But I think most people in europe, blame banks not the US. I the US most people blame the devil ;D

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#53

10-07-2008, 03:47 AM

Originally posted by v4 media

Spain's not that fucked, the banks haven't got crazy amounts of bad debt. They're actually buying up failing Euro banks on the cheap.
House prices have gone up like mad for years, a slowing of the economy isn't a bad thing.
Alot of the unskilled workforce is migrant so they will just move on.
A drop in the euro is good, it was way too high.

well . . . I live in Spain . people who live and work there seem to dissagree . .maybe officially is not too bad . .and the rich elite has not been too badly affected yet .. but all "normal" people who live there are complaining every day . .

believe me ..
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#54

10-07-2008, 03:53 AM

We are learning how interdependent we all are on each other in a global economy.
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#55

10-07-2008, 06:35 AM

fyi-the u.s. controls the weather over there too
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#56

10-07-2008, 06:39 AM

Originally posted by After Shock Media

The US of course

can you imagine.

Everything that goes wrong in the world is the fault of the US.

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#57

10-07-2008, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by pornguy

can you imagine.

Everything that goes wrong in the world is the fault of the US.

it just makes me wonder-

if the u.s. is responsible for everything that goes wrong in the world,
which country is responsible for everything that goes right?
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#58

10-07-2008, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by sltr

it just makes me wonder-

if the u.s. is responsible for everything that goes wrong in the world,
which country is responsible for everything that goes right?

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#59

10-07-2008, 07:08 AM

Only thing I know is I saved for 10 years , put most of my cash in funds and now i am broke. Took 10 months ;)

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#60

10-07-2008, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by Naughty

Only thing I know is I saved for 10 years , put most of my cash in funds and now i am broke. Took 10 months ;)

I know a lot of people in the same situation. Sorry to hear that.

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#61

10-07-2008, 07:41 AM

Some funny replies..

One of the most significant reasons the Euro banks/markets are hurting is because they have been buying fake dept/loans. Not just from the U.S., but from pretty much every Country Gov and major Corps in the world.

As a bad example: The UK says we are going to build up security. The U.S. says we will give you 100m, but never actually gives them 100m. But the UK puts on the books, we got 100m from the U.S. They then turn out and lend Germany lets say 50m and Spain 50m, both countries add it to the books.

At no point did anyone actually get paid any money. So now that the books say we have 50m more working capitol, the people go out and buy more stocks from these Companies. Problem is, they are buying stock on fake money the Companies don't have, just want paper says they have.

If the Gov gets the 50m, and doesn't loan it to other Countries, they loan it to banks. Again, no real money was handed over. Now when the little guy buys a house, the Bank actually makes money to pay back the fake dept they had. However, when people/companies can't pay that dept, we get the chain effect of what is going on all around the world today.

This isn't a Problem the U.S. created, it's a problem everyones Gov created and allows to happen. It happens with banks, companies, large and small, in pretty much every Country in the world. This isn't a scam, it's greed... which is far worse.

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#62

10-07-2008, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by Deputy Chief Command

well . . . I live in Spain . people who live and work there seem to dissagree . .maybe officially is not too bad . .and the rich elite has not been too badly affected yet .. but all "normal" people who live there are complaining every day . .

believe me ..

I live here aswell, everyone is used to the economy growing as it has for the past 15 years, people have spent more money than they have, so tough.

But the economics of the country are pretty good compared to the rest of Europe.
The shops are still full of people dropping cash on 50 inch plasmas, and driving about in new cars on credit.

House prices are going to drop, thats great news, they'd risen too fast and if people are stupid enough to borrow 5 times earnings and pray interest rates aren't going to go up that's their own fault. I've got my eyes on a finca in Teruel. hehe
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#63

10-07-2008, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Davey Jones

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#64

10-07-2008, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by TheDoc

Some funny replies..

One of the most significant reasons the Euro banks/markets are hurting is because they have been buying fake dept/loans. Not just from the U.S., but from pretty much every Country Gov and major Corps in the world.

As a bad example: The UK says we are going to build up security. The U.S. says we will give you 100m, but never actually gives them 100m. But the UK puts on the books, we got 100m from the U.S. They then turn out and lend Germany lets say 50m and Spain 50m, both countries add it to the books.

At no point did anyone actually get paid any money. So now that the books say we have 50m more working capitol, the people go out and buy more stocks from these Companies. Problem is, they are buying stock on fake money the Companies don't have, just want paper says they have.

If the Gov gets the 50m, and doesn't loan it to other Countries, they loan it to banks. Again, no real money was handed over. Now when the little guy buys a house, the Bank actually makes money to pay back the fake dept they had. However, when people/companies can't pay that dept, we get the chain effect of what is going on all around the world today.

This isn't a Problem the U.S. created, it's a problem everyones Gov created and allows to happen. It happens with banks, companies, large and small, in pretty much every Country in the world. This isn't a scam, it's greed... which is far worse.

Debt, not dept.

Also, you're wrong. Trading debt works quite well, as long as the ratings agencies do their job and markets aren't flooded with artificially cheap money. Also, governments actually aren't the focus here when it comes to debt (though the US government is responsible for a major lack of oversight and failed financial policies which made money cheaper than it should have been).

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#65

10-07-2008, 08:47 AM

The root of the problem does lie is the US (see below) although all countries and banking institutions are to blame for there lax lending critera and greediness and lack of foresight.

However what got us to todays situation is quite simple:

The US economy was at risk of a deep recession after the dotcom bubble burst in early 2000; this situation was compounded by the September 11 terrorist attacks that followed in 2001. In response, central banks around the world tried to stimulate the economy. They created capital liquidity through a reduction in interest rates. In turn, investors sought higher returns through riskier investments. Lenders took on greater risks too, and approved subprime mortgage loans to borrowers with poor credit.

After a two year period between 2004 and 2006 when US interest rates rose from 1% to 5.35%, the US housing market began to suffer, with prices falling and a rise in homeowners defaulting on their mortgages.

Default rates on sub-prime loans - high risk loans to clients with poor or no credit histories - rise to record levels.

And that is the cause of todays global situation.

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#66

10-07-2008, 09:03 AM

I think we need stop blaming and just fix it

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#67

10-07-2008, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by Libertine

Debt, not dept.

Also, you're wrong. Trading debt works quite well, as long as the ratings agencies do their job and markets aren't flooded with artificially cheap money. Also, governments actually aren't the focus here when it comes to debt (though the US government is responsible for a major lack of oversight and failed financial policies which made money cheaper than it should have been).

I'm for sure not wrong. First the Gov regulates what type of Dept Corporations buy. And most Countries, including the U.S. buy dept and sell it to the banks, which sell it to the Corps, which both sell to you.

We aren't trading real dept, we are trading fake dept. That's the problem and it isn't something the U.S. Gov started but did play a major part in. Money should be cheaper than it is, far cheaper. It still costs 25 cents to make a loaf of bread, fake inflation from fake loans, making stocks go up, making you buy fake value of stocks, making everything have fake value and everything costing more. The fake dept is the problem.

Originally posted by Libertine

The US economy was at risk of a deep recession after the dotcom bubble burst in early 2000; this situation was compounded by the September 11 terrorist attacks that followed in 2001. In response, central banks around the world tried to stimulate the economy. They created capital liquidity through a reduction in interest rates. In turn, investors sought higher returns through riskier investments. Lenders took on greater risks too, and approved subprime mortgage loans to borrowers with poor credit.

This didn't start in the 2000's, or 90's.. if anything we might be able to say the 80's, but really it happened every decade since the 30's. Ever since we went off Gold Standard and onto a fake money system. As soon as everything went to fake exchanges, fake value, making money value be covered by fake money values, this created all dept as we have it today. Something we never needed to happen but greed of others forced to happen.

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#68

10-07-2008, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by YDG

The root of the problem does lie is the US (see below) although all countries and banking institutions are to blame for there lax lending critera and greediness and lack of foresight.

However what got us to todays situation is quite simple:

The US economy was at risk of a deep recession after the dotcom bubble burst in early 2000; this situation was compounded by the September 11 terrorist attacks that followed in 2001. In response, central banks around the world tried to stimulate the economy. They created capital liquidity through a reduction in interest rates. In turn, investors sought higher returns through riskier investments. Lenders took on greater risks too, and approved subprime mortgage loans to borrowers with poor credit.

After a two year period between 2004 and 2006 when US interest rates rose from 1% to 5.35%, the US housing market began to suffer, with prices falling and a rise in homeowners defaulting on their mortgages.

Default rates on sub-prime loans - high risk loans to clients with poor or no credit histories - rise to record levels.

And that is the cause of todays global situation.

It's a large part of the cause, yes.

What has also contributed, though, is the introduction of structured investment vehicles, which magically transformed fairly risky subprime mortgages and loans and such into AAA rated mortage-backed and asset-backed securities, thereby increasing their value. The ratings agencies simply failed to do their jobs here - these AAA ratings were plainly unjustified.

Many funds and companies weren't even aware how risky their investments actually were because of that, and neither were the funds and companies investing in those funds and companies.

In effect, it became possible to play the system to hide risks from investors. Lack of oversight is to blame for that.

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#69

10-07-2008, 09:30 AM

I think we need to separate a world depression from the current financial situation to be able to pass blame... Sure the ensuing depression is linked to the financial crisis, but is not due to it. Things like rising oil, food prices, inflation, and general raw material costs are to blame for the sudden slow down of growth. The financial crisis was simply a catalyst.

For the financial crisis the world over, I blame pure and simple capitalistic greed. The US was the catalyst there, but you hang a carrot in front of a donkey and it'll behave like a donkey with a carrot dangled in front of it.

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#70

10-07-2008, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by TheDoc

I'm for sure not wrong. First the Gov regulates what type of Dept Corporations buy. And most Countries, including the U.S. buy dept and sell it to the banks, which sell it to the Corps, which both sell to you.

We aren't trading real dept, we are trading fake dept. That's the problem and it isn't something the U.S. Gov started but did play a major part in. Money should be cheaper than it is, far cheaper. It still costs 25 cents to make a loaf of bread, fake inflation from fake loans, making stocks go up, making you buy fake value of stocks, making everything have fake value and everything costing more. The fake dept is the problem.

Fake debt? You don't quite seem to understand what debt is.

Debt is an obligation.

If I give you a signed note saying I owe the owner of the note $100 and will at time X pay that, I'm obliged to fulfill that obligation. So, the value of the contract is the $100, but minus the chance that I won't be able to fulfill my obligation.

"Fake" debt would be such a note that I didn't sign. If I did sign it, the debt is real, even if I don't have the money yet.

Originally posted by TheDoc

This didn't start in the 2000's, or 90's.. if anything we might be able to say the 80's, but really it happened every decade since the 30's. Ever since we went off Gold Standard and onto a fake money system. As soon as everything went to fake exchanges, fake value, making money value be covered by fake money values, this created all dept as we have it today. Something we never needed to happen but greed of others forced to happen.

You aren't actually quoting me there, although it says so in your post, but I'll respond anyway.

The system indeed started a long time ago. And it made us incredibly rich. It allowed us to generate the liquid funds needed to start businesses and such based on non-liquid assets and expectations of future performance, which funneled resources towards promising initiatives.

Compare our standards of living with those of a century ago. Do you honestly believe they would have been the same had we not set up a complex economic system to deal with investments and such?

As the current crisis shows, there are risks. However, the benefits far outweigh those risks. In the past few decades, economic growth has been huge, and the current crisis and likely recession are exceedingly unlikely to wipe out that growth entirely.

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#71

10-07-2008, 10:23 AM

I don't blame anyone, the whole nature of blaming someone is retarded as far as I am concerned.

The whole system had to fail, people are not ready to be able to keep an affordable and steady growth and life standards, there is a serious lack of quality in all sectors and mankind is not evolving anywhere for a decent time.

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#72

10-07-2008, 10:42 AM

the way of the world now.. nwo you could say.. all economies are so connected, this happens to one, it happens to all
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#73

10-07-2008, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by sltr

it just makes me wonder-

if the u.s. is responsible for everything that goes wrong in the world,
which country is responsible for everything that goes right?

That would be the ruling political party in each individual country where something goes right

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#74

10-07-2008, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by YDG

The root of the problem does lie is the US (see below) although all countries and banking institutions are to blame for there lax lending critera and greediness and lack of foresight.

However what got us to todays situation is quite simple:

The US economy was at risk of a deep recession after the dotcom bubble burst in early 2000; this situation was compounded by the September 11 terrorist attacks that followed in 2001. In response, central banks around the world tried to stimulate the economy. They created capital liquidity through a reduction in interest rates. In turn, investors sought higher returns through riskier investments. Lenders took on greater risks too, and approved subprime mortgage loans to borrowers with poor credit.

After a two year period between 2004 and 2006 when US interest rates rose from 1% to 5.35%, the US housing market began to suffer, with prices falling and a rise in homeowners defaulting on their mortgages.

Default rates on sub-prime loans - high risk loans to clients with poor or no credit histories - rise to record levels.

And that is the cause of todays global situation.

Did Europe not also have the mother of all housing bubbles at the same time?
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#75

10-07-2008, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by CarlosTheGaucho

I don't blame anyone, the whole nature of blaming someone is retarded as far as I am concerned.

The whole system had to fail, people are not ready to be able to keep an affordable and steady growth and life standards, there is a serious lack of quality in all sectors and mankind is not evolving anywhere for a decent time.

It's a decadent and exciting time we live in!

quoted for 100% logic.
The entire market situation always levels itself out periodically, like forest fires. Build up enough growth and some fundamental underlying industry will pop, deflating the rest in a ricochet effect bringing everything back to a level playing field.
Rinse and repeat.

More lessons will be learned this time round, and checks in place to stop it happening again, but it will happen again in the future, like 15 yrs time yet via another means.

If you can keep your head above water and don't base your entire savings and pensions on the stock market, you'll be fine.

Nows a great time to start putting out feelers and watchers on stocks, cos there's some great medium (18-24mo) killers to be made here...

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#76

10-07-2008, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by Libertine

Fake debt? You don't quite seem to understand what debt is.

Debt is an obligation.

If I give you a signed note saying I owe the owner of the note $100 and will at time X pay that, I'm obliged to fulfill that obligation. So, the value of the contract is the $100, but minus the chance that I won't be able to fulfill my obligation.

"Fake" debt would be such a note that I didn't sign. If I did sign it, the debt is real, even if I don't have the money yet.

You aren't actually quoting me there, although it says so in your post, but I'll respond anyway.

The system indeed started a long time ago. And it made us incredibly rich. It allowed us to generate the liquid funds needed to start businesses and such based on non-liquid assets and expectations of future performance, which funneled resources towards promising initiatives.

Compare our standards of living with those of a century ago. Do you honestly believe they would have been the same had we not set up a complex economic system to deal with investments and such?

As the current crisis shows, there are risks. However, the benefits far outweigh those risks. In the past few decades, economic growth has been huge, and the current crisis and likely recession are exceedingly unlikely to wipe out that growth entirely.

A dept, is when you actually have $20, and you give me $20, and I spend it. And at a later date, I give you the money back, maybe with interest.

Fake dept is when someone loans you $20, but you don't get the $20. But you did add the $20 to your books. You didn't pay tax on it, because you re-invested the money buy selling it off to other Companies/Govs/People - again, nobody really getting any money.

So at any point, if the people, corps, or Gov fail from bad business, eco, general stupidity, the chain breaks. No "fake dept" is paid back, and the entire system falls onto itself.

This is what happened, over and over and over, until we got to where we are today.

I would rather have a normal, low, everyone on the same level (or close to it) standard that what we have today. I would rather have Gold than paper worth nothing. I would rather Companies produce based on need and not force demand because the market is fake.

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#77

10-07-2008, 12:14 PM

why does everyone keep writing dept and not debt?

in any case, doc is right on "fake" debt, not that there's any such thing really, cos at some point, someone will call the money in, or the govt will underwrite it. More book balancing, and no real "money" being paid, but shit what is money, if it isn't just electronic balances, -ve or +ve?
I saw some graphic somewhere, that the US national debt is 50something percent owned by the people of the US. That figure is important in "fake" debt, cos the second it drops below 50, then some other country claims rights to the USA... fake or not, once a majority owner of the debt, the country becomes theirs. If they can pay it that is ;)

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#78

10-07-2008, 12:16 PM

Blame? I could only celebrate the ones responsible for it. I made 20% on my savings during the past 2 months, as I changed everything into USD when eur/usd was over 1.60.
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#79

10-07-2008, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by v4 media

I live here aswell, everyone is used to the economy growing as it has for the past 15 years, people have spent more money than they have, so tough.

But the economics of the country are pretty good compared to the rest of Europe.
The shops are still full of people dropping cash on 50 inch plasmas, and driving about in new cars on credit.

House prices are going to drop, thats great news, they'd risen too fast and if people are stupid enough to borrow 5 times earnings and pray interest rates aren't going to go up that's their own fault. I've got my eyes on a finca in Teruel. hehe

I dont know what part of Spain you live . . all I know is that the people in Barcelona are NOT happy ;)

everybody is complaining .. taxi drivers .. . restaurant owners . . bar owners . . .club owners . . . hell . . even the brothels are complaining . . .

so yeah .. I dont know . .. seems to me people are not happy
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#80

10-07-2008, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Deputy Chief Command

I dont know what part of Spain you live . . all I know is that the people in Barcelona are NOT happy ;)

everybody is complaining .. taxi drivers .. . restaurant owners . . bar owners . . .club owners . . . hell . . even the brothels are complaining . . .

so yeah .. I dont know . .. seems to me people are not happy

I've lived here for 11 years.

People have been complaining since the Euro was launched that costs have gone up. But failed to see that for this country's been growing like mad.

Taxi drivers always complain, it's what they do.

Bar owners, don't you think that there may be too many bars in this country, every worker seems to eat breakfast,
numerous coffees and lunch in a bar, so maybe it's not a bad idea that people eat at home.

The Spanish moan, but how many old cars do you see driving about, nope every fuckers gotta have a new one.
If people are stupid enough to get a 10 year loan to pay for a car, then worry about it it's their own fault, should have got a secondhand car.

And Catalans will never be happy because they blame the rest of Spain for everything .
I used to live in Barca but moved because my child couldn't be taught in castellano. Wonderful city but fuck I hate that fucking pissy dialect.

I'm not saying everything is rosy, I'm just saying that the Spanish banks are not going to get hammered as much as other countries.

Last edited by v4 media; 10-07-2008, 11:56 PM.
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#81

10-08-2008, 12:04 AM

On the bright side, outsourcing to eastern europe is going to be profitable again, people are becoming jobless there.

But I blame this tree
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#82

10-08-2008, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by pigman

Credit crisis = US banks and their unregulated finance sector
Inflation = the oil bubble (us hedgefunds with others drow up the price) and the global food shortage

Wrong = its regulations that forced banks into making bad loans so joe crack head could own a home. This was the first step, which lead to greed, corruption and so on... but its regulations that started this domino so look back at the "Community investment act" which pres carter started, and clinton opened the flood gates too...

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#83

10-08-2008, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by v4 media

I've lived here for 11 years.

People have been complaining since the Euro was launched that costs have gone up. But failed to see that for this country's been growing like mad.

Taxi drivers always complain, it's what they do.

Bar owners, don't you think that there may be too many bars in this country, every worker seems to eat breakfast,
numerous coffees and lunch in a bar, so maybe it's not a bad idea that people eat at home.

The Spanish moan, but how many old cars do you see driving about, nope every fuckers gotta have a new one.
If people are stupid enough to get a 10 year loan to pay for a car, then worry about it it's their own fault, should have got a secondhand car.

And Catalans will never be happy because they blame the rest of Spain for everything .
I used to live in Barca but moved because my child couldn't be taught in castellano. Wonderful city but fuck I hate that fucking pissy dialect.

I'm not saying everything is rosy, I'm just saying that the Spanish banks are not going to get hammered as much as other countries.

well . .Cant really dissagree with most of it .. them Catalan people really do complain about everything and it always is the fault of the rest of Spain .%
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