The ONLY Fair Tax is a national sales tax...

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  • NickPapageorgio
    Confirmed User
    • Apr 2004
    • 8323
    #1

    The ONLY Fair Tax is a national sales tax...

    It's the only way to tax fairly and evenly across the boards. Income tax depends on people who are actually going to report their income to the IRS. A national sales tax would be a tax on consumables, and even though this country may have people who do not report their income, those same people are also consumers. Drug dealers, illegals, under the table employees, etc etc.

    Charge a percentage on every purchase, no matter how large or small. For example, 15% on a million dollar yacht and 15% on a 25 cent pack of gum. It's the only FAIR tax plan!! Discuss...Happy Saturday.
    Tags: None
    • mikeyddddd
      Viva la vulva!
      • Mar 2003
      • 16557
      #2
      Originally posted by NickPapageorgio
      It's the only way to tax fairly and evenly across the boards. Income tax depends on people who are actually going to report their income to the IRS. A national sales tax would be a tax on consumables, and even though this country may have people who do not report their income, those same people are also consumers. Drug dealers, illegals, under the table employees, etc etc.

      Charge a percentage on every purchase, no matter how large or small. For example, 15% on a million dollar yacht and 15% on a 25 cent pack of gum. It's the only FAIR tax plan!! Discuss...Happy Saturday.

      0% income tax
      15% sales tax is only an example, right?

      Last edited by mikeyddddd; 09-13-2008, 11:29 AM.

        Comment

        • NickPapageorgio
          Confirmed User
          • Apr 2004
          • 8323
          #3
          Yes, only an example. But just a flat rate tax on everything. To me, it's common fucking sense really. Not only does it level the playing field for every worker, every class, but it also combats people who avoid paying any taxes on a regular basis. I honestly don't see how it would be that hard to implement and as long as they work the numbers correctly, I believe that adding a flat sales tax would produce more revenue for the states. It's a win-win.
          Last edited by NickPapageorgio; 09-13-2008, 11:32 AM.

            Comment

            • Brad Mitchell
              Confirmed User
              • Nov 2001
              • 9813
              #4
              There are tens of millions of low income individuals that don't pay any income tax at all, this would punish our nations poorest.

              Brad
              President at MojoHost | brad at mojohost dot com | Skype MojoHostBrad
              71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

                Comment

                • L-Pink
                  working on my tan
                  • Mar 2005
                  • 39151
                  #5
                  I think a combination tax, say 5% across the board for individuals, 10-15% for corporations, and ZERO deductions. Then a sales tax on everything except unprepared food items.

                  Way to many people from webmasters to carpenters to waitresses, etc don't report income. Also election day and tax day should fall on the same day during election year.


                  .

                    Comment

                    • Lycanthrope
                      Confirmed User
                      • Jan 2004
                      • 4517
                      #6
                      But then the Feds couldn't use the RICO act to bust the filthy flesh peddlers

                        Comment

                        • headless ghost
                          Confirmed User
                          • May 2005
                          • 893
                          #7
                          who makes the laws?
                          thats why it will never happen.

                            Comment

                            • mikeyddddd
                              Viva la vulva!
                              • Mar 2003
                              • 16557
                              #8
                              Originally posted by Brad Mitchell
                              There are tens of millions of low income individuals that don't pay any income tax at all, this would punish our nations poorest.

                              Brad
                              Increase their food stamps to offset it.

                              Originally posted by L-Pink
                              Then a sales tax on everything except unprepared food items.
                              .
                              Tax unprepared food items, too.

                              Don't subsidize filet or t-bone. If you want better cuts, the tax (not the tax rate) should be more than on ground beef.

                                Comment

                                • pocketkangaroo
                                  Confirmed User
                                  • Jan 2005
                                  • 8452
                                  #9
                                  So a regressive tax scheme is the most fair?

                                    Comment

                                    • L-Pink
                                      working on my tan
                                      • Mar 2005
                                      • 39151
                                      #10
                                      Originally posted by mikeyddddd
                                      Tax unprepared food items, too.
                                      Concession to low income households?

                                        Comment

                                        • IllTestYourGirls
                                          Ah My Balls
                                          • Feb 2007
                                          • 14311
                                          #11
                                          First you need to repeal the 16th amendment that is not going to happen. So what you have is BOTH a sales and income tax woohoo!


                                          THE ONLY FAIR TAX IS NO TAX

                                            Comment

                                            • xxxRumor
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • Jul 2007
                                              • 386
                                              #12
                                              Originally posted by NickPapageorgio
                                              Yes, only an example. But just a flat rate tax on everything. To me, it's common fucking sense really. Not only does it level the playing field for every worker, every class, but it also combats people who avoid paying any taxes on a regular basis. I honestly don't see how it would be that hard to implement and as long as they work the numbers correctly, I believe that adding a flat sales tax would produce more revenue for the states. It's a win-win.
                                              i don't think its a win-win. (gov't is fucked here)

                                              If an average Joe had a clue of how much Taxes he truly pays in a year, proportional to his income. There would be a revolution.

                                              People don't realize how much taxes they pay.

                                              Examples:

                                              People don't know that employer pays 1/2 of their Social tax, and medicare (they think they pay whats on their check which is only 1/2 or 7% and employer pays 7% total of 14%). Employer could paid them another 7% more in salary if not those taxes.
                                              They forget about things like taxes on beer, cigarettes, gas (which are hidden) on top of sales tax.

                                              Also add the sales tax (they know this one)
                                              Also add the property taxes...

                                              Lets say Joe is making 60k/year. At the end, when all taxes are paid, Joe is probably out of about 60% of his real income.

                                              Now, try take this directly out of his paycheck and show it to him (that would be fair). or tried to have a sales tax of 60%
                                              NO WAY - People will revolt.

                                              The only reason they don't is they don't know.

                                                Comment

                                                • marketsmart
                                                  HOMICIDAL TROLL KILLER
                                                  • Dec 2004
                                                  • 20419
                                                  #13
                                                  Originally posted by Brad Mitchell
                                                  There are tens of millions of low income individuals that don't pay any income tax at all, this would punish our nations poorest.

                                                  Brad
                                                  no, because you exempt food and the poor pay sales tax too anyway..

                                                  also, you could give tax vouchers to the poor up to a certain amount..

                                                    Comment

                                                    • NickPapageorgio
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Apr 2004
                                                      • 8323
                                                      #14
                                                      Originally posted by xxxRumor
                                                      i don't think its a win-win. (gov't is fucked here)

                                                      If an average Joe had a clue of how much Taxes he truly pays in a year, proportional to his income. There would be a revolution.

                                                      People don't realize how much taxes they pay.

                                                      Examples:

                                                      People don't know that employer pays 1/2 of their Social tax, and medicare (they think they pay whats on their check which is only 1/2 or 7% and employer pays 7% total of 14%). Employer could paid them another 7% more in salary if not those taxes.
                                                      They forget about things like taxes on beer, cigarettes, gas (which are hidden) on top of sales tax.

                                                      Also add the sales tax (they know this one)
                                                      Also add the property taxes...

                                                      Lets say Joe is making 60k/year. At the end, when all taxes are paid, Joe is probably out of about 60% of his real income.

                                                      Now, try take this directly out of his paycheck and show it to him (that would be fair). or tried to have a sales tax of 60%
                                                      NO WAY - People will revolt.

                                                      The only reason they don't is they don't know.
                                                      I'm not so positive that the government doesn't win in this situation. #1, they get to get rid of the IRS for the most part. That is one bloated department that they can take money and put elsewhere when it's no longer needed. #2, out of 10 people you see walking around in the street, what percentage honestly would you say doesn't pay their taxes or cheats on their taxes? Think about it. Even bums who live in cardboard boxes go to 7-11 and buy a bottle of Wild Irish Rose from time to time. I live near a farming community here in NC and I know of one house that has at the very least 20-30 mexicans (including kids) living in it. You think that farmer that hired them to top tobacco is filing their paper work? Hell no. Out of the 10-15 mexican adults living in that house, I would bet my next month's salary that 0 pay legit taxes on anything.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • NickPapageorgio
                                                          Confirmed User
                                                          • Apr 2004
                                                          • 8323
                                                          #15
                                                          And I actually agree with you to an extent xxxRumor. 33% comes right off the fucking top for the most part lol. I love when people say something as stupid as "Tax Free Money" lmfao...every fucking time that bleeding fucking dollar bill changed hands it was taxed to absolute fucking death lol. There is no such thing as tax free money.

                                                          But, I also think that the revenue made by eliminating the IRS and taxing the untaxed would relieve some of that burden on the "Regular Joes" who pay their taxes like they should.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • mynameisjim
                                                              Confirmed User
                                                              • Aug 2007
                                                              • 2985
                                                              #16
                                                              A national sales tax is a terrible idea.

                                                              First of all, it burdens the poor and middle class much more than the wealthy. Second, people won't earn the same as they do now. Salaries are based on the fact that a certain amount is lost to payroll taxes. After a while companies will start lowering the salaries they offer to potential employees claiming that without a payroll tax, it comes out to the same. So what you will get over time is people making less money yet paying the same in taxes.
                                                              jim (at) amateursconvert . com Amateurs Convert

                                                                Comment

                                                                • NickPapageorgio
                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                  • Apr 2004
                                                                  • 8323
                                                                  #17
                                                                  Actually, if you think like this:

                                                                  John Q. Worker is a low class worker. He makes $250 per week before taxes. After the IRS has taken their share, John is roughly down to $167.50 (- the 33% he's paid to the IRS). Now John goes to the grocery store and spends $100 on groceries. Let's say he lives where the sales tax now is 9%, after paying $109 for his groceries he's down to $58.50 to live on for the rest of the week.

                                                                  Now...

                                                                  Same guy, but no IRS. He brough home $250 and was taxes zero dollars. He goes to the grocery store and buys his $100 worth of groceries and he's charged the SAME amount of tax on it as he would have been charged on his paycheck. (42%) Which is a crazy sales tax to most people. After paying the $142 for his groceries, he's left with $108 for the next week.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • NickPapageorgio
                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                      • Apr 2004
                                                                      • 8323
                                                                      #18
                                                                      Originally posted by mynameisjim
                                                                      A national sales tax is a terrible idea.

                                                                      First of all, it burdens the poor and middle class much more than the wealthy. Second, people won't earn the same as they do now. Salaries are based on the fact that a certain amount is lost to payroll taxes. After a while companies will start lowering the salaries they offer to potential employees claiming that without a payroll tax, it comes out to the same. So what you will get over time is people making less money yet paying the same in taxes.
                                                                      Right, so it is more of a matter of ethics than numbers. Plus, it would hurt the poor just as much as it was hurting the rich. There would be no more arguing about so and so gets a break on his taxes because he makes over X amount yearly. Straight percentage across the board. The only answer in the case of the extremely poor is to do what we're doing now and have a welfare/food stamp type system that remains untaxed.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Kevin Marx
                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                          • Apr 2007
                                                                          • 1888
                                                                          #19
                                                                          burdens the poor and middle class much more than the wealthy???? Why The Fuck is a wealthy man's dollar valued differently than anyone else's? Why should the wealthy subsidize everything more than those who don't earn as much?

                                                                          When in the hell did we decide that we wanted to become a welfare state and make sure that everyone, everywhere was taken care of exactly the same way? Can anyone say socialism or communism??? Is that where we want to go?

                                                                          Seriously, does no one believe in natural selection at all here???

                                                                          If I regularly earn over a million per year and you only make 10k per year, why when we both earn a dollar are we taxed differently? Why am I essentially subsidizing the roads you drive on, the schools your kids go to, the police that help to protect you, etc etc. Granted, it's not just one person doing so, it's many... but it's the many of one class supporting the many of another. This has confused me to no end.

                                                                          I fully support a national tax. One tax... everyone... all the same.. that's it. Fuck this different for everyone. Don't like it? Get a better job and earn more money.
                                                                          ICQ: 370 037 008

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                                                                            • NickPapageorgio
                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                              • Apr 2004
                                                                              • 8323
                                                                              #20
                                                                              I think honestly too, for John Q. Worker to come home with $250 as opposed to $167.50, that right there is going to boost the economy. He's not thinking "Oh, well, I'm going to get taxed when I spend it". He's thinking, "Oh dayum...I can go get a few lap dances and a 6 pack tonight before I go back to the trailer park...woohooo!!!" ;)

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • mynameisjim
                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                  • Aug 2007
                                                                                  • 2985
                                                                                  #21
                                                                                  Originally posted by Kevin-SFBucks
                                                                                  burdens the poor and middle class much more than the wealthy???? Why The Fuck is a wealthy man's dollar valued differently than anyone else's? Why should the wealthy subsidize everything more than those who don't earn as much?

                                                                                  When in the hell did we decide that we wanted to become a welfare state and make sure that everyone, everywhere was taken care of exactly the same way? Can anyone say socialism or communism??? Is that where we want to go?

                                                                                  Seriously, does no one believe in natural selection at all here???

                                                                                  If I regularly earn over a million per year and you only make 10k per year, why when we both earn a dollar are we taxed differently? Why am I essentially subsidizing the roads you drive on, the schools your kids go to, the police that help to protect you, etc etc. Granted, it's not just one person doing so, it's many... but it's the many of one class supporting the many of another. This has confused me to no end.

                                                                                  I fully support a national tax. One tax... everyone... all the same.. that's it. Fuck this different for everyone. Don't like it? Get a better job and earn more money.
                                                                                  It's not dollar for dollar, it's percentage of income. With a national sales tax the poor and middle class would be paying a much higher percentage of their income towards taxes. You think pushing the middle class and poor further down the economic ladder is good policy? As a businessman, I sure as hell don't want to see that. I want to see the middle class get as many breaks as possible, because they are the ones who spend money in the greatest numbers.
                                                                                  jim (at) amateursconvert . com Amateurs Convert

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • GatorB
                                                                                      The Demon & 12clicks
                                                                                      • Oct 2001
                                                                                      • 18208
                                                                                      #22
                                                                                      Originally posted by NickPapageorgio
                                                                                      It's the only way to tax fairly and evenly across the boards. Income tax depends on people who are actually going to report their income to the IRS. A national sales tax would be a tax on consumables, and even though this country may have people who do not report their income, those same people are also consumers. Drug dealers, illegals, under the table employees, etc etc.

                                                                                      Charge a percentage on every purchase, no matter how large or small. For example, 15% on a million dollar yacht and 15% on a 25 cent pack of gum. It's the only FAIR tax plan!! Discuss...Happy Saturday.
                                                                                      YOU = RETARD

                                                                                      Yes an the national sales tax would have to be at least 23% on top of state and local taxes. So that mean I'd be paying nearly 33% in sales tax. Want a good way to totally kill the economy institute a natinal sales tax.

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • GirlsOnYou
                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                          • Oct 2006
                                                                                          • 618
                                                                                          #23
                                                                                          Originally posted by Kevin-SFBucks
                                                                                          When in the hell did we decide that we wanted to become a welfare state and make sure that everyone, everywhere was taken care of exactly the same way? Can anyone say socialism or communism??? Is that where we want to go?

                                                                                          Seriously, does no one believe in natural selection at all here???

                                                                                          I fully support a national tax. One tax... everyone... all the same.. that's it. Fuck this different for everyone. Don't like it? Get a better job and earn more money.
                                                                                          Amen. I thought the same way even when I had low income.

                                                                                          I also think that a sales tax, applied to properties, food, cars, everything, would be best. Every adult would carry some kind of a personal tax plastic card like visa to the grocery store etc. and the goverment would check their monthly spending and if it is too little, their sales tax % would be lower or none. Minors would pay the default sales tax %, no matter what their spending is. Although I don't support the poor and IMO everyone should pay enough taxes for them to not be considered leeches or die trying.
                                                                                          * Selling my adult sites.
                                                                                          Email: furaldbullon48aol9com - Replace 48 with @ and 9 with .

                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                            • NickPapageorgio
                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                              • Apr 2004
                                                                                              • 8323
                                                                                              #24
                                                                                              Originally posted by GatorB
                                                                                              YOU = RETARD

                                                                                              Yes an the national sales tax would have to be at least 23% on top of state and local taxes. So that mean I'd be paying nearly 33% in sales tax. Want a good way to totally kill the economy institute a natinal sales tax.
                                                                                              Where's this 23% coming from? Right now, you're paying 33% federally on average, not to mention your state and local taxes, plus whatever your local sales tax is. Add up those numbers and try again. The large text was effective though, I liked that part.

                                                                                              And I AGREE!!! Putting money in the hands of people who have absolutely NO IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH IT will TOTALLY kill the economy!!! lmfao...I <3 GFY.

                                                                                              Let's also not forget that part of your tax that you pay right now is to cover the assholes that don't pay shit. :15cents
                                                                                              Last edited by NickPapageorgio; 09-13-2008, 12:52 PM.

                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                • GatorB
                                                                                                  The Demon & 12clicks
                                                                                                  • Oct 2001
                                                                                                  • 18208
                                                                                                  #25
                                                                                                  Originally posted by NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                  I think honestly too, for John Q. Worker to come home with $250 as opposed to $167.50, that right there is going to boost the economy. He's not thinking "Oh, well, I'm going to get taxed when I spend it". He's thinking, "Oh dayum...I can go get a few lap dances and a 6 pack tonight before I go back to the trailer park...woohooo!!!" ;)
                                                                                                  Once you=retard if some guy is only coming come with $250 he's not coming home with $167.50 now. Since when is a poor guy getting taxed 50%. If a guy is going to come home with $250 if you get rid of the income tax( and I'm assuming the FICA tax ) then that mens he's making $6.25 and hour. Ok first of all minimum wage is $6.55 and it's going up to $7.25 next July. $7.25 X 40 hours is $290 a week. No if you get rid of Income and FICA taxes obviously the guy brings home all $290. The way things are now even if he's single and has no dependants he's bringing home $245. He's still better off now than having a 23% national sales tax.

                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                    • NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                      • Apr 2004
                                                                                                      • 8323
                                                                                                      #26
                                                                                                      It's simple math really dude and I was just using numbers, sorry I didn't account for minimum wage lol.

                                                                                                      $250 X .33 (33&#37;) = $82.50
                                                                                                      $250 - $82.50 = $167.50

                                                                                                      Magic...

                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                        • NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                          • Apr 2004
                                                                                                          • 8323
                                                                                                          #27
                                                                                                          And BTW, you are 150&#37; wrong about him being better off. Let's see, am I better off having the government take out nearly 40% and then trying to pay my bills with what I have left, or am I better off keeping my entire paycheck and then deciding where to spend my money most effectively.

                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                            • GatorB
                                                                                                              The Demon & 12clicks
                                                                                                              • Oct 2001
                                                                                                              • 18208
                                                                                                              #28
                                                                                                              Originally posted by NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                              Where's this 23% coming from?
                                                                                                              EVERY expert on this issue says it has to be at least 23%. Where do you get 15% from Or is that a number you just pull out of your ass?

                                                                                                              Right now, you're paying 33% federally on average,
                                                                                                              Less than 1/10 of 1% are paying that much.

                                                                                                              And I AGREE!!! Putting money in the hands of people who have absolutely NO IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH IT will TOTALLY kill the economy!!! lmfao...I <3 GFY.
                                                                                                              Um let's say I have $1000 to spend on a new TV now. Now I could spend more but my self limit is $1000 no matter what. Right now I know I can't actually get a $1000 TV because of sales tax. At most I can spend $911 with lcoal sales tax that's $1000. Now if a 23% national sales tax is added the most I can spend is $753. So the store I buy the TV at is losing $158 or 17%. Now if the store has 17% decrease is sales guess what, they have to fire empoyees and/or cut back hours. This is good for the economy how?

                                                                                                              THINK.

                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                • GatorB
                                                                                                                  The Demon & 12clicks
                                                                                                                  • Oct 2001
                                                                                                                  • 18208
                                                                                                                  #29
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                                  And BTW, you are 150% wrong about him being better off. Let's see, am I better off having the government take out nearly 40% and then trying to pay my bills with what I have left, or am I better off keeping my entire paycheck and then deciding where to spend my money most effectively.
                                                                                                                  Hey retard who gets the money from the sales tax you paid? THE GOVERNMENT. And no I am right.

                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                    • NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                      • Apr 2004
                                                                                                                      • 8323
                                                                                                                      #30
                                                                                                                      If you had actually read the posts, yes, 15&#37; was just a number, as was the $250 figure.

                                                                                                                      The less than 1/10 of 1% is wacky at best. I won't get into name calling, this is a discussion.

                                                                                                                      As far as the $1000 TV goes, that would most certainly be up to you to decide, but the amount you were willing to spend is directly related to the amount of money you have in your bank account. People over spend now, what makes you think that they wouldn't continue to overspend if the sales tax were higher?

                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                        • GatorB
                                                                                                                          The Demon & 12clicks
                                                                                                                          • Oct 2001
                                                                                                                          • 18208
                                                                                                                          #31
                                                                                                                          Originally posted by NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                                          It's simple math really dude and I was just using numbers, sorry I didn't account for minimum wage lol.

                                                                                                                          $250 X .33 (33%) = $82.50
                                                                                                                          $250 - $82.50 = $167.50

                                                                                                                          Magic...
                                                                                                                          Please show me how a guy making $250 is getting 33% taken out for income taxes? or even income and FICA taxes combined? Please sjhow me a link to this 33% tax rate for the poor. Last time I checked it's 10% and it's 10% AFTER personal exemptions and dependant deduction. He's his own dependant you know.

                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                            • GatorB
                                                                                                                              The Demon & 12clicks
                                                                                                                              • Oct 2001
                                                                                                                              • 18208
                                                                                                                              #32
                                                                                                                              Originally posted by NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                                              If you had actually read the posts, yes, 15% was just a number, as was the $250 figure.
                                                                                                                              Once again show me a link where a 15% sales tax is sufficient enough to cover the costs of the federal budget? because even the pro-sales tax guys say it's 23%. And that's if you atx everything. If you exempt food, housing, medicine etc it's closer to 30%. See unlike you I've actually STUDIED this. Oh yeah 23% sales tax when buying a house or car that's super good for the economy.

                                                                                                                              The less than 1/10 of 1% is wacky at best. I won't get into name calling, this is a discussion.
                                                                                                                              Ok retard need to make over $336,000 in TAXABLE income to get into the 33% income tax bracket . Now if you just barley qualified for the 33% tax bracket you total income taxes would actually be only 25% of your income. If you don't believe me may I suggest going to http://irs.gov and look it up yourself and get educated.

                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                • GatorB
                                                                                                                                  The Demon & 12clicks
                                                                                                                                  • Oct 2001
                                                                                                                                  • 18208
                                                                                                                                  #33
                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by GirlsOnYou
                                                                                                                                  Amen. I thought the same way even when I had low income.

                                                                                                                                  I also think that a sales tax, applied to properties, food, cars, everything, would be best. Every adult would carry some kind of a personal tax plastic card like visa to the grocery store etc. and the goverment would check their monthly spending and if it is too little, their sales tax % would be lower or none. Minors would pay the default sales tax %, no matter what their spending is. Although I don't support the poor and IMO everyone should pay enough taxes for them to not be considered leeches or die trying.
                                                                                                                                  You are going to trust the government to be able to do all this stuff? The same government which fails at everything else? Most governemnt agencies have computers than are 15 years old or older. yes let's make government BIGGER. That's good. I prefer LESS governemnt not MORE.

                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                    • GatorB
                                                                                                                                      The Demon & 12clicks
                                                                                                                                      • Oct 2001
                                                                                                                                      • 18208
                                                                                                                                      #34
                                                                                                                                      By the way the people SUPPORTING the national sales tax are the ones that came up with the 23% not 15%. So where does 15% come in? Shows how ignorant of the whole debate you are.

                                                                                                                                      http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/Tax%20Not...0FT%20rate.pdf

                                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                                        • NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                          • Apr 2004
                                                                                                                                          • 8323
                                                                                                                                          #35
                                                                                                                                          Same scenario as before, but I'm using the REAL numbers instead of just example numbers.

                                                                                                                                          If Johnny Q. Taxpayer has a minimum wage job when it goes up to $7.25 an hour he will gross $290 per week if he works 40 hours per week.

                                                                                                                                          After the government has taken his federal (http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article...164272,00.html Single, Schedule X, row 2) out, which is ROUGHLY around 15&#37;, he brings home, on average $246.50 per week. We're not counting state taxes etc, just the federal income tax. Now, he goes to the store and buys his $100 worth of groceries @ 9% sales tax ($109) and is left with $137.50 for the week.

                                                                                                                                          Now...

                                                                                                                                          Using your 23% sales tax, if he brings home his entire paycheck ($290) and goes to the store and buys his $100 worth of groceries taxed at 23% ($123) he is left with $167 for the week.

                                                                                                                                          That's using YOUR numbers friend.

                                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                                            • IllTestYourGirls
                                                                                                                                              Ah My Balls
                                                                                                                                              • Feb 2007
                                                                                                                                              • 14311
                                                                                                                                              #36
                                                                                                                                              I love this. People arguing how they want to be enslaved.

                                                                                                                                              No I like these chains better not these ones are the best NO thessssssse ones are chains of the future.

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                                                                                                                                                • IllTestYourGirls
                                                                                                                                                  Ah My Balls
                                                                                                                                                  • Feb 2007
                                                                                                                                                  • 14311
                                                                                                                                                  #37
                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                                                                  Same scenario as before, but I'm using the REAL numbers instead of just example numbers.

                                                                                                                                                  If Johnny Q. Taxpayer has a minimum wage job when it goes up to $7.25 an hour he will gross $290 per week if he works 40 hours per week.

                                                                                                                                                  After the government has taken his federal (http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article...164272,00.html Single, Schedule X, row 2) out, which is ROUGHLY around 15%, he brings home, on average $246.50 per week. We're not counting state taxes etc, just the federal income tax. Now, he goes to the store and buys his $100 worth of groceries @ 9% sales tax ($109) and is left with $137.50 for the week.

                                                                                                                                                  Now...

                                                                                                                                                  Using your 23% sales tax, if he brings home his entire paycheck ($290) and goes to the store and buys his $100 worth of groceries taxed at 23% ($123) he is left with $167 for the week.

                                                                                                                                                  That's using YOUR numbers friend.
                                                                                                                                                  Jonny Q making that little pays no income tax. They get MORE BACK than they paid in.

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                                                                                                                                                    • NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                      • Apr 2004
                                                                                                                                                      • 8323
                                                                                                                                                      #38
                                                                                                                                                      And that retard thing is really funny coming from a guy who doesn't know what the fuck 50&#37; of $250 is. $167.50 != 50%of$250

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                                                                                                                                                        • directfiesta
                                                                                                                                                          Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                          • Oct 2002
                                                                                                                                                          • 30227
                                                                                                                                                          #39
                                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by Brad Mitchell
                                                                                                                                                          There are tens of millions of low income individuals that don't pay any income tax at all, this would punish our nations poorest.

                                                                                                                                                          Brad
                                                                                                                                                          Not really...

                                                                                                                                                          You could exempt food, medication & healthcare, rent/house under a certain level .... and so on.
                                                                                                                                                          I know that Asspimple is stoopid ... As he says, it is a FACT !

                                                                                                                                                          But I can't figure out how he can breathe or type , at the same time ....

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                                                                                                                                                            • mynameisjim
                                                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                              • Aug 2007
                                                                                                                                                              • 2985
                                                                                                                                                              #40
                                                                                                                                                              The two biggest issues aren't even with the numbers. It's the side effects a national tax would have.

                                                                                                                                                              1) Employers would use the national tax as an excuse to pay a lower wage.

                                                                                                                                                              2) Underground markets would sprout up everywhere. As it is now, generally only the poor operate in underground economies. But with a national sales tax, even the middle and upper middle class would be interested in saving 15&#37; by buying products from a black market. I KNOW FOR A FACT everyone on here would be talking about the "great deal" they got by not paying taxes for this or that because of their special connection or whatever.

                                                                                                                                                              The flat tax reminds me of what happens when think tanks come up with solutions. They make sense on paper but make no common sense.
                                                                                                                                                              jim (at) amateursconvert . com Amateurs Convert

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                                                                                                                                                                • NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                  • Apr 2004
                                                                                                                                                                  • 8323
                                                                                                                                                                  #41
                                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by IllTestYourGirls
                                                                                                                                                                  Jonny Q making that little pays no income tax. They get MORE BACK than they paid in.
                                                                                                                                                                  How do you figure? I'm honestly open to people who can make me understand why the sales tax isn't better than income tax. I will always listen to another man's point of view if it's well stated, not just name calling and shit. Johnny Q, earning minimum wage makes $15,080 before taxes yearly. Is he not in the second income bracket filing singly on this page: http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article...164272,00.html

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                                                                                                                                                                    • NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                      • Apr 2004
                                                                                                                                                                      • 8323
                                                                                                                                                                      #42
                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by mynameisjim
                                                                                                                                                                      The two biggest issues aren't even with the numbers. It's the side effects a national tax would have.

                                                                                                                                                                      1) Employers would use the national tax as an excuse to pay a lower wage.

                                                                                                                                                                      2) Underground markets would sprout up everywhere. As it is now, generally only the poor operate in underground economies. But with a national sales tax, even the middle and upper middle class would be interested in saving 15&#37; by buying products from a black market. I KNOW FOR A FACT everyone on here would be talking about the "great deal" they got by not paying taxes for this or that because of their special connection or whatever.

                                                                                                                                                                      The flat tax reminds me of what happens when think tanks come up with solutions. They make sense on paper but make no common sense.
                                                                                                                                                                      Totally agree. It would be a battle of ethics, not numbers. The thing I think people get so up in arms over is they don't realize that their tax burden is actually going to be MUCH less by having people who aren't currently paying taxes step up and pay some. On paper, like you said, I personally think it makes perfect sense.
                                                                                                                                                                      Last edited by NickPapageorgio; 09-13-2008, 01:42 PM.

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                                                                                                                                                                        • shermo
                                                                                                                                                                          #43
                                                                                                                                                                          Who's going to make sure that the sales tax you pay, gets to the government? It would still have to pass through the provider of the goods sold, and what's stopping them from stashing it away?

                                                                                                                                                                          I used to think this was a great idea, but we need checks and balances, and doing something like this wouldn't eliminate the IRS. It would just tighten up a ton on employers.

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                                                                                                                                                                            • NickPapageorgio
                                                                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                              • Apr 2004
                                                                                                                                                                              • 8323
                                                                                                                                                                              #44
                                                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by sherm
                                                                                                                                                                              Who's going to make sure that the sales tax you pay, gets to the government? It would still have to pass through the provider of the goods sold, and what's stopping them from stashing it away?

                                                                                                                                                                              I used to think this was a great idea, but we need checks and balances, and doing something like this wouldn't eliminate the IRS. It would just tighten up a ton on employers.
                                                                                                                                                                              Not completely eliminate the IRS, but it would surely make that department a LOT smaller I would think. Like Gator said! Less government!!

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                                                                                                                                                                                • Due
                                                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                  • Mar 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                  • 3620
                                                                                                                                                                                  #45
                                                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Brad Mitchell
                                                                                                                                                                                  There are tens of millions of low income individuals that don't pay any income tax at all, this would punish our nations poorest.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Brad
                                                                                                                                                                                  No way, such a system works well, just look at Denmark, the happiest nation in the world..
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sales tax / VAT of 25%, extra special taxes on cars (180%), gas /electricity and such got envirement taxes, yearly tax (called license fee) on owning a TV etc etc etc
                                                                                                                                                                                  Tax + top taxes going up to about 64% if I'm not mistaken
                                                                                                                                                                                  Have no idea how people can be happy about that Thank god I moved away
                                                                                                                                                                                  I buy plugs
                                                                                                                                                                                  Skype: Due_Global
                                                                                                                                                                                  /Due

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                                                                                                                                                                                    • Kevin Marx
                                                                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Apr 2007
                                                                                                                                                                                      • 1888
                                                                                                                                                                                      #46
                                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by mynameisjim
                                                                                                                                                                                      It's not dollar for dollar, it's percentage of income. With a national sales tax the poor and middle class would be paying a much higher percentage of their income towards taxes. You think pushing the middle class and poor further down the economic ladder is good policy? As a businessman, I sure as hell don't want to see that. I want to see the middle class get as many breaks as possible, because they are the ones who spend money in the greatest numbers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, but when you talk percentage of income you are classifying people and isn't that against what America is supposed to be about? Aren't you and I supposed to be equals in the eyes of the law? If that's truly the case, why would I be taxed at 33% while you (well someone in the lowest tax bracket) is either taxed at 10%, or they don't pay any taxes at all? How is that fair? That's the wealthy (or capable earners) subsidizing those that don't make so much.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Your logic also makes the least sense on the poor and middle class spending the money in the greatest numbers. There are so many ways to look at this, but as a percentage of their income, no they do not. They spend little. But as a group, sure, they spend a lot.... at WalMart and at KMart... and they vote in a huge block to whomever panders to them the best.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Again, why should a dollar earned by someone that is wealthy be treated any differently than a dollar earned by someone that isn't wealthy??? It's all about the votes.. nothing more.
                                                                                                                                                                                      ICQ: 370 037 008

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                                                                                                                                                                                        • Kevin Marx
                                                                                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                          • Apr 2007
                                                                                                                                                                                          • 1888
                                                                                                                                                                                          #47
                                                                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by IllTestYourGirls
                                                                                                                                                                                          I love this. People arguing how they want to be enslaved.

                                                                                                                                                                                          No I like these chains better not these ones are the best NO thessssssse ones are chains of the future.
                                                                                                                                                                                          You are enslaved no matter which way you look at it. Just because you see more of your paycheck now doesn't mean that the same amount isn't getting paid out... or even more perhaps.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Add up all the taxes you pay... income, property, gasoline, sales, etc etc etc... same enslavement as you put it, just a different process to reach the endgame.
                                                                                                                                                                                          ICQ: 370 037 008

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                                                                                                                                                                                            • tony299
                                                                                                                                                                                              lurker
                                                                                                                                                                                              • Aug 2002
                                                                                                                                                                                              • 57021
                                                                                                                                                                                              #48
                                                                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by mynameisjim
                                                                                                                                                                                              A national sales tax is a terrible idea.

                                                                                                                                                                                              First of all, it burdens the poor and middle class much more than the wealthy. Second, people won't earn the same as they do now. Salaries are based on the fact that a certain amount is lost to payroll taxes. After a while companies will start lowering the salaries they offer to potential employees claiming that without a payroll tax, it comes out to the same. So what you will get over time is people making less money yet paying the same in taxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                              bingo give the man a cigar

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                                                                                                                                                                                                • Kevin Marx
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Apr 2007
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 1888
                                                                                                                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by sherm
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Who's going to make sure that the sales tax you pay, gets to the government? It would still have to pass through the provider of the goods sold, and what's stopping them from stashing it away?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I used to think this was a great idea, but we need checks and balances, and doing something like this wouldn't eliminate the IRS. It would just tighten up a ton on employers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Imagine the amount of time that the IRS spends dealing with returns right now... over 300 million citizens in the USA and probably 1/2 of those (or more) file returns. Instantly get rid of those and the IRS would be responsible for verifying sales revenue vs tax revenue received. No deductions, no loopholes, no anything.. just A vs. B. Match that against bank records in audits. No different than right now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Employers also right now are responsible for taking out your income tax, employment taxes (social security), Medicare... what's to stop them from stashing that away right now????
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ICQ: 370 037 008

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