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slapass

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#51

08-19-2008, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

The App Store gives it a boost, but the iPhone still can't do lots of things that most Palm, Blackberry or Windows Mobile phones can do. The only real advantage the iPhone has is the GUI. Most of the Apps you're seeing on the iPhone now are just clones of existing apps from the other systems.

It's also not just Google putting this system together. It's major cellphone manufacturers, cell service providers and telecom companies. So it's not really a SE company putting out a cell phone.

Not sure of at right this moment but when I bought the iPhone it was the only one with real internet in that it did not get the mobile version of every site. You see the real google with adwords etc.

The key to the iPhone is that it is EASY. I had a Garmin, iPod and Razr. Now I have an iPhone. And it looks like I have a gameboy now too. Think how nuts that is. Add in that it is a almost a weak laptop for me and I have to say I love my iPhone. Do others do all this? Maybe but do they do it easy and why didn't they tell us they did all this?
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#52

08-19-2008, 07:02 AM

LG and Samsung both tried and have failed at it
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#53

08-19-2008, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by slapass

Not sure of at right this moment but when I bought the iPhone it was the only one with real internet in that it did not get the mobile version of every site. You see the real google with adwords etc.

The key to the iPhone is that it is EASY. I had a Garmin, iPod and Razr. Now I have an iPhone. And it looks like I have a gameboy now too. Think how nuts that is. Add in that it is a almost a weak laptop for me and I have to say I love my iPhone. Do others do all this? Maybe but do they do it easy and why didn't they tell us they did all this?

My HTC running WinMo 6.1 already does more than the iPhone can at this point. I can run Tom Tom, Garmin or any number of GPS programs. I can run emulators and play all the games, it's even got a huge library of games already. It might not have the storage capacity, but I can play all my MP3s and pretty much any video files. There's also a browser that uses the same Webkit functionality that the Safari browser for iPhone uses, AND it can play flash from within the browser...something the iPhone can't do. Hell, like I said...I've even made my GUI look and operate EXACTLY like the interface on the iPhone. Plus I can easily send pics and video, I still don't think the iPhone can even do those simple things without additional App support.

I really have no issue with the iPhone other than it being ATT only here in the US. Why neglect 70+% of the US Cellphone market? In the end, that will be their downfall. I believe it's still an ATT exclusive for a few more years.

Originally posted by Pete-KT

LG and Samsung both tried and have failed at it

I guess you didn't read either. LG and Samsung are both contributing partners on the Android project.

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#54

08-19-2008, 07:10 AM

They can TRY, but it won't be easy to replace iPhone.

I'm just a newbie.
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#55

08-19-2008, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by A1R3K

to me the whole appeal with the iphone is its slim design, the full front of it is screen. its 100% touchscreen, no buttons on the face. i have the 3g and its by far the best phone i ever had and i'm hard on my phones. like you said though, if anyone can try to compete its goog.

Yeah, at the moment I'm a huge fan of apple and recommend the phone to anyone and their mothers. We'll see if Google has a competitive answer in a few months

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slapass

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#56

08-19-2008, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

My HTC running WinMo 6.1 already does more than the iPhone can at this point. I can run Tom Tom, Garmin or any number of GPS programs. I can run emulators and play all the games, it's even got a huge library of games already. It might not have the storage capacity, but I can play all my MP3s and pretty much any video files. There's also a browser that uses the same Webkit functionality that the Safari browser for iPhone uses, AND it can play flash from within the browser...something the iPhone can't do. Hell, like I said...I've even made my GUI look and operate EXACTLY like the interface on the iPhone. Plus I can easily send pics and video, I still don't think the iPhone can even do those simple things without additional App support.

Not sure where the disconnect is then. Did it do all of that right out of the box or did you have to screw around with it? I do not live in the US but I am here every month, and I have never heard of the HTC.

I see the consortium list but can't you say the same for 75% of that list on a Dell computer? Most of that list is just chip sellers who will make them for anyone who can pay or do volume. Google is trying to take point on this. It is being marketed as their phone.
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#57

08-19-2008, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by slapass

Not sure where the disconnect is then. Did it do all of that right out of the box or did you have to screw around with it? I do not live in the US but I am here every month, and I have never heard of the HTC.

I see the consortium list but can't you say the same for 75% of that list on a Dell computer? Most of that list is just chip sellers who will make them for anyone who can pay or do volume. Google is trying to take point on this. It is being marketed as their phone.

Yep, does that all out of the box. Sprint, T-Mobile and Verizone (maybe ATT too) all carry and market HTC phones.

Here's the Sprint Touch, you've probably seen them...just haven't heard of the company:

Google is marketing at least 1 phone. I doubt it will have parts from HTC, LG and Motorola phones. These companies have a stake in this consortium so that they can use this OS on their hardware too. It's not tied to one single "Google Phone".

HTC makes some kickass phones - http://www.htc.com/www/default.aspx

Last edited by candyflip; 08-19-2008, 07:33 AM.

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#58

08-19-2008, 07:34 AM

The Android GUI is horrible. No multitouch?

And the first device will be that HTC one which is about 3 times as thick, bigger and has a smaller screen.

I predict that android will be the free cheap generic symbian.

It is not a comparable thing to the iPhone, certainly not an iPhone killer.
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#59

08-19-2008, 07:38 AM

I got the iphone 3g. its ok but not as great as I thought. The 3G network sucks. Its fucking slow.
And theres no calling features. Cant block a phone number or forward a specific number like every other phone does.
Really pissed me off, I was trying to block someone and Apple said I cant
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#60

08-19-2008, 07:39 AM

Originally posted by DamianJ

The Android GUI is horrible. No multitouch?

And the first device will be that HTC one which is about 3 times as thick, bigger and has a smaller screen.

I predict that android will be the free cheap generic symbian.

It is not a comparable thing to the iPhone, certainly not an iPhone killer.

Once again, it's an OS that will be open source and able to be used by cellphone makers. It's not hardware, it's software. Google will be marketing a phone, but it won't be the only phone.

Is that really to difficult a concept to grasp?

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DamianJ

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#61

08-19-2008, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

Google is marketing at least 1 phone.

Really? Got a link about that? I thought they were making the software only. I didn't realise they would be actually selling a physical Google-branded phone.
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#62

08-19-2008, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

Once again, it's an OS that will be open source and able to be used by cellphone makers. It's not hardware, it's software. Google will be marketing a phone, but it won't be the only phone.

Is that really to difficult a concept to grasp?

How does the hardware alter the GUI? (aside from different screen resolutions, obv).
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#63

08-19-2008, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by DamianJ

Really? Got a link about that? I thought they were making the software only. I didn't realise they would be actually selling a physical Google-branded phone.

I guess it's safe to say you didn't read the first post in the thread?

As of today, Internet giant Google has received approval from the Federal Communications Commission to develop a mobile device based on the company?s mobile operation and development platform, Android.

http://www.xbiz.com/news/98061

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#64

08-19-2008, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by DamianJ

How does the hardware alter the GUI? (aside from different screen resolutions, obv).

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

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DamianJ

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#65

08-19-2008, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

I guess it's safe to say you didn't read the first post in the thread?

http://www.xbiz.com/news/98061

I guess you didn't read it:

"In any event, online reports agree that the new phone will reach stores in time for the holidays, and that T-Mobile"
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#66

08-19-2008, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by DamianJ

I guess you didn't read it:

"In any event, online reports agree that the new phone will reach stores in time for the holidays, and that T-Mobile"

Yes, a Google branded model will be available on T-Mobile by the end of the year. I didn't say anything to debate that. The OS is already out in the wild (in beta form), I can run it from SD card right now.

Last edited by candyflip; 08-19-2008, 08:00 AM.

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#67

08-19-2008, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

My HTC running WinMo 6.1 already does more than the iPhone can at this point. I can run Tom Tom, Garmin or any number of GPS programs. I can run emulators and play all the games, it's even got a huge library of games already. It might not have the storage capacity, but I can play all my MP3s and pretty much any video files. There's also a browser that uses the same Webkit functionality that the Safari browser for iPhone uses, AND it can play flash from within the browser...something the iPhone can't do. Hell, like I said...I've even made my GUI look and operate EXACTLY like the interface on the iPhone. Plus I can easily send pics and video, I still don't think the iPhone can even do those simple things without additional App support.

I really have no issue with the iPhone other than it being ATT only here in the US. Why neglect 70+% of the US Cellphone market? In the end, that will be their downfall. I believe it's still an ATT exclusive for a few more years.

I guess you didn't read either. LG and Samsung are both contributing partners on the Android project.

Sounds like alot of work just to get a phone to work as the iphone does out of the box. I bet you build your own PCs too, right? Not me, I just use a Mac.

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DamianJ

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#68

08-19-2008, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

It's really simple. I said this:

"The Android GUI is horrible. No multitouch?"

You then snarkily posted this:

"Once again, it's an OS that will be open source and able to be used by cellphone makers. It's not hardware, it's software. Google will be marketing a phone, but it won't be the only phone.

Is that really to difficult a concept to grasp?"

I then snarkily asked you how different handsets would alter the GUI.

All I was talking about was the GUI (semantically, yes I mentioned the first HTC handset that will be running it, but that was an aside).

So my question was aimed to point out to you your initial snark was misplaced.
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#69

08-19-2008, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by NetBilling

Sounds like alot of work just to get a phone to work as the iphone does out of the box. I bet you build your own PCs too, right? Not me, I just use a Mac.

Nope, I'm actually probably one of the bigger Mac fanboys here. Imagine that. I'm sitting in our office right now surrounded by a few iMacs, Mac Pro, Macbook Pro, Macbook, AppleTV, multiple iPods...I even have an old Newton from back in the day.

And the WinMo phones do everything I mentioned right out of the box. Though, I can hack it up and there's pretty much nothing the iPhone can do that it can't do...again, right out of the box.

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#70

08-19-2008, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

Yes, a Google branded model will be available on T-Mobile by the end of the year. .

Got a link about that, I didn't know google were releasing a physical product branded with Google?

The previous link you posted states T-Mobile will be releasing a phone using the Android OS. Doesn't mention anything about a branded google handset being made by Google. Unless I missed that bit?

Looks to me like Google made the OS, T-Mobile will be the carrier and HTC are making the hardware.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-100....html?hhTest=1

No?
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#71

08-19-2008, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by DamianJ

It's really simple. I said this:

"The Android GUI is horrible. No multitouch?"

You then snarkily posted this:

"Once again, it's an OS that will be open source and able to be used by cellphone makers. It's not hardware, it's software. Google will be marketing a phone, but it won't be the only phone.

Is that really to difficult a concept to grasp?"

I then snarkily asked you how different handsets would alter the GUI.

All I was talking about was the GUI (semantically, yes I mentioned the first HTC handset that will be running it, but that was an aside).

So my question was aimed to point out to you your initial snark was misplaced.

It wasn't directly right at you, it was more of a general statement. There were a bunch of people before you that seem to be a bit more misinformed or were just chiming in to hear themselves speak, so to speak. As you can see from the posts in the thread, people seem to think that we're going to see one phone running this that is going to go head to head with the iPhone. The media is calling this the "iphone killer", not any of the companies involved with the project. We've got WinMo, we've got OSXMo and this is basically LinuxMo. You might understand that, but it doesn't look like that is sinking in with a few others.

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DamianJ

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#72

08-19-2008, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

It wasn't directly right at you, it was more of a general statement

Ah, I thought on the internet when you QUOTE someone in your post and then reply, that is usually considered a direct response to that person.

I didn't get the memo from the interwebs that standard had been altered. My bad.
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#73

08-19-2008, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by DamianJ

Got a link about that, I didn't know google were releasing a physical product branded with Google?

The previous link you posted states T-Mobile will be releasing a phone using the Android OS. Doesn't mention anything about a branded google handset being made by Google. Unless I missed that bit?

Looks to me like Google made the OS, T-Mobile will be the carrier and HTC are making the hardware.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-100....html?hhTest=1

No?

I'd have to dig around a bit, but they've even had photos of the prototype with the Google logo, and referred to by the media as the gPhone...though I doubt they'll call any of them by that name.

The Android OS will be seen on HTC, Motorola, Samsung and LG phones at some point in time and will be carried by Sprint and T-Mobile here in the States. The one they are referring to in the article is just going to be the first of many. On top of that, it will be installable on a big list of phones from those same manufacturers. You can already load it on pretty much any HTC phone thanks to the HTC hackers out there.

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#74

08-19-2008, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by DamianJ

Ah, I thought on the internet when you QUOTE someone in your post and then reply, that is usually considered a direct response to that person.

I didn't get the memo from the interwebs that standard had been altered. My bad.

No sweat.

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#75

08-19-2008, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

I'd have to dig around a bit, but they've even had photos of the prototype with the Google logo, and referred to by the media as the gPhone...though I doubt they'll call any of them by that name.

Ah, you state as fact that Google will be releasing a branded phone (and this news is on no other tech website I can find) because you saw a mock up once.

Riiiight.

That mac tablet is round the corner too.

;)
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#76

08-19-2008, 08:30 AM

Why couldn't it be very competitive with the Iphone? As somebody who is strictly utilitarian, if Google puts out a better product at a better price, I'm getting that over the Iphone.
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#77

08-19-2008, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by Mike33

Why couldn't it be very competitive with the Iphone? As somebody who is strictly utilitarian, if Google puts out a better product at a better price, I'm getting that over the Iphone.

Did you not watch the movie?

If you have used an iPhone and watch that movie, you will realise the answer to your question. It's just not as good!

I predict Android will be the 'free' OS on 'free' handsets. Those that want to pay to have the (subjectively) best mobile phone/computing experience will select an iPhone. Those that want to have a free phone that is OK will chose alternatives. Weirdos will chose Windows Mobile.
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#78

08-19-2008, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by DamianJ

Ah, you state as fact that Google will be releasing a branded phone (and this news is on no other tech website I can find) because you saw a mock up once.

Riiiight.

That mac tablet is round the corner too.

;)

There has been no official announcement, but plenty of talk. While it's not set in stone (yet), it's very likely.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/s...ter-this-year/

And don't rule out the Mac tablet yet, I think you can already buy a modded Macbook tablet from a third party. Can't recall the company, but I know someone is marketing it.

Last edited by candyflip; 08-19-2008, 08:48 AM.

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#79

08-19-2008, 08:52 AM

People love the iPhone because of it's operating system, overall.

Say what you want, but it's the same reason more and more people are moving over to their line of computers to...the operating system.

AND while open source is cool and all, the reason why Apple has such a hold over the market is because they realize they have such an amazing thing with their operating system and they decide to only put it on their phones, their computers, etc.

They make a quality product and make people come to THEM and them alone to get it.

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#80

08-19-2008, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

There has been no official announcement, but plenty of talk. While it's not set in stone (yet), it's very likely.

Right. So I was taking issue with you stating as fact it was happening. When it isn't a fact at all. It's not even a rumour really. It was bloody Robert Bloody Cringely. The least reliable tech journo in Christendom. And that was from February.

Originally posted by candyflip

And don't rule out the Mac tablet yet, I think you can already buy a modded Macbook tablet from a third party.

Yes you can buy one. It's called the ModBook.

But how does that equate to apple releasing one themselves exactly?

Hang on, lemme go find a mock up for you, then you can post saying they are releasing one.

:P

Last edited by DamianJ; 08-19-2008, 09:03 AM.
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#81

08-19-2008, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by Juggs

People love the iPhone because of it's operating system, overall.

Say what you want, but it's the same reason more and more people are moving over to their line of computers to...the operating system.

AND while open source is cool and all, the reason why Apple has such a hold over the market is because they realize they have such an amazing thing with their operating system and they decide to only put it on their phones, their computers, etc.

They make a quality product and make people come to THEM and them alone to get it.

I'm a hardcore Apple user and I'm first to admin that with under 30% marketshare, they really don't have a "hold" onanything, PC or Mobile.

That said, you are right about the OS. They do have a great GUI (though I can already put the same thing on any Windows Mobile phone). The biggest drawback with the iPhone is that they're tied to one carrier. Apple is leaving a lot on the table by only making their product available to about 27% of those already paying for cellphone service.

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#82

08-19-2008, 09:08 AM

I have had the Blackberry 8800, The Q, The Razr, you name it. Two of the aforementioned used for work (email, push, etc).

iPhone is far and away the best phone I have ever had. The organization on it, so many well thought through components.

I have never once found myself needing flash. Also, as far as sending out pics, I never did that anyways. However, most of the people I know have email. I take a pic, I send it through email, to an email.

The only thing the iPhone does that hacks me off is the auto-spellcheck. You can't cut it off.

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#83

08-19-2008, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

I'm a hardcore Apple user and I'm first to admin that with under 30% marketshare, they really don't have a "hold" onanything, PC or Mobile.

You need to look at the smartphone market. the iPhone isn't trying to compete with nokia's shit 'free' phones.

"Apple's iPhone continues to break records, shipping over a million units in 3 consecutive quarters. Even with Q2 shipments dropping in anticipation of the new 3G iPhone, Apple retained the second place spot for the first half of the year with Motorola a close third."

http://www.mobiletechnews.com/info/2...13/105427.html

Originally posted by candyflip

They do have a great GUI (though I can already put the same thing on any Windows Mobile phone).

What? You are saying you can run the iPhone OS on windows mobile?

How does that work then?

Last edited by DamianJ; 08-19-2008, 09:15 AM.
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#84

08-19-2008, 09:24 AM

whenever someone says "iphone killer" to me that means "hey, we'll just produce a knockoff instead of developing something new and unique that might capture the attention that the iphone did"

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#85

08-19-2008, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by WEG Cory

The only thing the iPhone does that hacks me off is the auto-spellcheck. You can't cut it off.

settings -> General -> Keyboard -> Enable Autocorrection : OFF

Feel free to buy me a beer in Amsterdam.

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I will be the British dude doing magic tricks.

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#86

08-19-2008, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by SomeCreep

Iphone killer? Talk about weak sauce. When are people going to figure out that consumers are not interested in buying a cheap imitation of the Iphone.

uh huh. And that's why IBM clones totally pwned the PC market and everyone has a computer at home today?

Of course people want a cheaper option with the same (if not better) functionality.

Apple is trendy right now which is why the iPhone is so popular. Not because its the best phone on the market
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#87

08-19-2008, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by DamianJ

You need to look at the smartphone market. the iPhone isn't trying to compete with nokia's shit 'free' phones.

"Apple's iPhone continues to break records, shipping over a million units in 3 consecutive quarters. Even with Q2 shipments dropping in anticipation of the new 3G iPhone, Apple retained the second place spot for the first half of the year with Motorola a close third."

http://www.mobiletechnews.com/info/2...13/105427.html

What? You are saying you can run the iPhone OS on windows mobile?

How does that work then?

I was referring to overall cellphone marketshare, not smartphone and ATT's not Apple...with regards the phones. ATT has 27% (+/-) of all cell phone contracts in the US. That means that 73% aren't able to get the iPhone on their current plan. That is my point.

And no, I didn't say that I could run iPhone OS on Windows Mobile. I'm not retarded. I said that you can skin your WinMo GUI to look and function almost exactly as the iPhone.

The video isn't the best, but here's an example and what is pretty much an outdated phone at this point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npPhLQEJv10

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#88

08-19-2008, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by SykkBoy2

whenever someone says "iphone killer" to me that means "hey, we'll just produce a knockoff instead of developing something new and unique that might capture the attention that the iphone did"

Not in this case. The media keeps referring to it as the iPhone killer. Google (and the rest of the consortium) want you to see that it's more than just a phone.

http://android-developers.blogspot.com/

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#89

08-19-2008, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by DamianJ

settings -> General -> Keyboard -> Enable Autocorrection : OFF

Feel free to buy me a beer in Amsterdam.

;)

I will be the British dude doing magic tricks.

:D

I don't have that???

You have that?

-Auto-Capitalization
-Enable Cap locks
"." Shortcut
International keyboards

I am on 3G.

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DamianJ

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#90

08-19-2008, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

And no, I didn't say that I could run iPhone OS on Windows Mobile. I'm not retarded. I said that you can skin your WinMo GUI to look and function almost exactly as the iPhone.

Oh I really laughed out loud then.

Cool, you use that and think you are getting an iphone UI experience.
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DamianJ

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#91

08-19-2008, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by WEG Cory

I don't have that???

You have that?

-Auto-Capitalization
-Enable Cap locks
"." Shortcut
International keyboards

I am on 3G.

I don't even have one yet. My contract isn't up till October. I read that solution, clearly it was old version of the OS.

Google showed me this though

http://www.hackthatphone.com/20/autocorrection.html

Which looks very simple.
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acctman

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#92

08-19-2008, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by candyflip

Again, it's not just Google here. It's a large consortium of companies. HTC and LG included. There were be MANY phones running this OS, not just one Google branded handset.

As for the Android interface, it's completely "skinnable", just like WinMo. I'm sure there will be a number of GUIs for Android, just as there are for the Windows phones.

i agree, but its just an OS just like Windows Mobile. Have you seen what can be done with windows mobile? look at the Touch Flo gui interface that sits on top of windows mobile. Googles man problem is not there OS its that they do not have a dedicated phone. All theses phones are nothing special just regular pda and smart phones, that would of ran Windows Mobile. They need "one" dedicated phone, that ggogle can customized to work best with there OS, not just a standard phone.
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Semi-Retired-Dave

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#93

08-19-2008, 07:21 PM

Apple is going to be tough to go against but so was Yahoo and they put a pretty big dent on them. But all Iphones come with youtube so why go against someone that is pushing your product. Oh well.

I personally hate the iphone but I may want to try this one.

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seeric

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#94

08-19-2008, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Moe H

Yeah, at the moment I'm a huge fan of apple and recommend the phone to anyone and their mothers. We'll see if Google has a competitive answer in a few months

yah

if its good i'll get one and keep the iphone too.

no one says you can only have one phone.
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seeric

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#95

08-19-2008, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by WEG Cory

I don't have that???

You have that?

-Auto-Capitalization
-Enable Cap locks
"." Shortcut
International keyboards

I am on 3G.

YAH wtf?

I have the same as you. I want to turn off that Ducking autocorrection. Get it.

That motherfucker doesn't like me cussing and changes all my FUCKING to DUCKING unless i catch it.
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Cory W

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#96

08-19-2008, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by A1R3K

YAH wtf?

I have the same as you. I want to turn off that Ducking autocorrection. Get it.

That motherfucker doesn't like me cussing and changes all my FUCKING to DUCKING unless i catch it.

Holy shit. Ducking. Yes, that pisses me off to no extent. I love how it doesn't learn the word!!!

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Cory W

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#97

08-19-2008, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by CyberAge-Dave

Apple is going to be tough to go against but so was Yahoo and they put a pretty big dent on them. But all Iphones come with youtube so why go against someone that is pushing your product. Oh well.

I personally hate the iphone but I may want to try this one.

Maybe I am way out on this one, but I always believed that the reason the iPhone lacked Flash was to give Youtube a push. I figured they had a deal under the table for a year.

Who knows though...

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Miguel T

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#98

08-19-2008, 08:49 PM

I really doubt if anyone can beat the Iphone.

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slapass

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#99

08-19-2008, 09:01 PM

Auto correction sucks. I type in other languages sometimes and it is insanely hard. I bought an iphone for my mom and she is 67 and loves it. That is hard to do. The iPhone just has easy to use locked down.
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CrystaliZed

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#100

08-19-2008, 09:05 PM

Well just talking "text" wise... the iphone can't compete with the Blackberry for texting. And I do a lot of it... I'm a fast texter and the touch screen on the damn iphone makes me wanna break it... takes forever to catch up. The Blackberry on the other hand... keeps up! Shit... my Blackberry is like 4 models old now... the 8700... works like a gem!
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