Fuck Ya... Go Epoch!!!

come on, take your foot out of you mouth!

Balh, Blah , Blah... with commas this time.

Wow... you two are so smart.

Let me make it very clear for ya Ronin and Kimmy. In case you have not noticed, Visa is changing the rules and not letting merchants hide behind 3rd party processors anymore (just as I stated Mastercard would do several onths ago). They are PROBABLY going to make everyone register... same as getting your own merchant account. Mastercard will surely follow.

Simple enough for you?

Mitch

and when do you predict this will happen?

This is why I'm wondering what's the point of paying a processor 9%-16% when you are still liable and can still get canned. You can get all the wonderful back office support from another company for 2%-5%.

Does it still make sense? Please tell me if I'm off base here.

Mitch, you need to keep up with what you do.
posting shit that might, might not happen, is typical
of you and the other people like Epoch try to use
to get business. funny how we can keep up with
your business better then you. did you pay a lot
for your education?

hide behind 3rd party processers, they only do my high
risk shit. not a lot of love in this business.
a lot of people forget, it is business.

Quiet,

I cannot predict when it will happen. I would simply be guessing at that point. Visa and Mastercard say things and take them back all of the time. They also change rules with no warning. Very unpredicatable.

Pornwolf,

I do not want to personally comment on that so I will not be seen as spamming. You know my view though.

Ronin,

Would you rasther us not report what we have been told may be coming? Would you rather just receive an email from your processor one day with no warning? If so, them you should probably not frequent the boards either. Everyone here is guilty of self promotion. Some of us just offer helpful information on top of that. I get slammed with emails daily from merchants and webmasters asking me uestions about what I feel they should do or what might be coming up etc... should I just ignore them and not share my knowledge in the processing field? And how do you figure that you keep up with my business better than me? I'm dying to know.

Mitch

eek i just read more

Obviously. But I would like to hear from the other processors on this one. As it stands, I see the importance of going with someone who is going to take that chunk out my pocket diminishing in November.

I'm not an expert so I will admit I don't know enough about this to give a truly credible answer. I do know that when part of an important service a company offers is no longer there, the company in question always lowers their prices.

What is the advantage of full 3rd party processing next year instead of getting a merchant account and going with a services provider?

I'd hate to call you Cogent (with better peering) Mitch but in this case...

Hopefully this thread will be bumped enough for me to get an answer. I think it will.

Hey KK!

Well, after we left last year's desert forum and returned to our "problems", we just decided it wasn't worth it anymore. Sort of cut a deal with the district attorney. We were at the point where our story was going to hit the national news magazine programs, and we just didn't want to do that. It was bad enough getting papers served on us monthly and having our neighbors wonder what was going on. As you know, Texas isn't kind to the adult industry. Sucks, but . . . somethines things just turn out shitty.

So we sort of also went into hiding for awhile. Might be back with a new site soon though.

Hope things are good with ya. I'll track you down on email or ICQ and we'll catch up.

i think you're right

Kimmy - Holy shit, you're in Dallas now? We need to go do dinner.

I've somehow lost all your contacts so shoot me an email at [email protected]

Hi All

I tend to sit back and watch threads like this roll out and giggle from time to time. The backbiting and smart-ass comments flow like always. Pick a subject and someone is going to start pissing.

But it seems we have a fair group of very knowledgeable people in here all talking about much the same thing.

"The future of Billing (Visa and M/Card) in our Porn World".

We have had Clay and Chris from Epoch, who we all know had problems, from all independent reports, Clay and his team have fixed everything and shown they are truly friends of the webmaster community.

And Kimmy (ex CCBill), who I consider a friend and I trust entirely, has a very unique view of both processing and running a proggie. If I needed a question on billing answered, I would indeed start with this lovely lady.

Mitch from NetBilling who is trying to solve the Non 3rd Party options, must be included in the debate, as he would undoubtedly be the contrasting view from Epoch and the other PSP?s

Plus a host of very interested (and rightfully concerned) webmasters that would probably be thinking about billing every day (i.e. ? will I get my check from my PSP this week?)

So let me place this challenge on you all. Can you forget your pissing and back biting for just a little bit, and lets all try and place posts here of important thoughts, such as:

1) The webmasters could give Epoch the feedback they need to develop the free trial model without risk to our industry

2) The Tax implications of registering sub merchants and the obvious abuse of the database of all porn webmasters that goes with it

3) The subtle changes being made by the processors (like iBill asking its webmasters to remove Visa and MasterCard logos from their join pages)

4) A true comparative risk/benefit analysis for owning your own merchant account as opposed to working within a PSP (for both US and Non US entities)

This issue is just too big to sit around and piss guys. Give me your thoughts on this. If I am full of shit, ok, I'll go back to sitting back and having a giggle.

But if you are serious about this, I am happy to set up a website on an unused URL with Zero advertising to do nothing but work on billing issues.

A first step - what do you think?

Give me a holler on icq: 92462894, or spam me at daniel at multibill.com if you want to discuss anything specific with me

Good luck everyone - I think we need it

Daniel Hicks

all i know is if you do choose to get a merchant account,, then i highly reccomend going with netbilling.com to take care of you,,

Playa,

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it.

Daniel,

Sorry to miss you earlier. I will be in the office almost all day tomorrow so please call me or ICQ a # to reach you. You have posted some great points that we should elabotate on and will do so tomorrow on the board.
I'm just a bit tired now and going to sleep.

Have a great night everyone.

Mitch

I am thinking as a 20 year old man, and I am thinking I will jack off 2 times before I cancel my free trial. I think this will be very much like TGP to smart surfers after one week.

But I am just dumb Russian, what am I knowing?

Daniel from MultiBill - Good post. Good points.

DyannaDoes - I've looked up your account and know exactly what the situation is. Drop me an email or give me a call and I'll answer any questions you may have. Your account has been closed since September 2001. [email protected]

- - - - - - - -

Chris Mallick, the CEO of Epoch, will be coming to this board sometime between 11 and 12 today (PST) to answer your questions and comment on some of the previous posts.

roll out the red carpet hahahaha

DyannaDoes - "Well, after we left last year's desert forum and returned to our "problems", we just decided it wasn't worth it anymore. Sort of
cut a deal with the district attorney. We were at the point where our story was going to hit the national news magazine
programs, and we just didn't want to do that. It was bad enough getting papers served on us monthly and having our neighbors
wonder what was going on. As you know, Texas isn't kind to the adult industry. Sucks, but . . . somethines things just turn out shitty.
So we sort of also went into hiding for awhile."

Well I guess thats the answer as to why you never replied to us when we tried numerous times to contact you about your sites not pulling up!
Now that we no you are around again Rand can help you get any issues resolved.

*************

FadeEP - I respect your concern for the industry and the free trial billing model,
it is a fact that we reinstated free trials at certain levels for almost a year now.
If you are able to manage the risk and only allow certain accounts based on processing history
to make these offers to cardholders then the billing model is acceptable.
Poor disclosure (or no disclosure for that matter) and poor customer service
are common reasons why this model caused problems in the past for some.

As far as marketing, conversions and cancellations associated with free trials or previews - that
is your area, we just build the products for the webmasters to use, it is up to the webmaster to determine what products work best
for his or her program. We just manage the risk.

Pornwolf - You're not quite getting the point. First of all I don't know who you are or what types of
volumes you do, so this is by no means directed at you.

Lets focus on mid range dollar volume merchants.
IF these type merchants are able to find a Tier 1 100M Acquiring Bank to underwrite a 5967
merchant account after Nov. 1, 2002 then I would be very surprised. And if they do underwrite the
account it may be for VISA ONLY. It is very unlikely that a merchant bank is going to underwrite an account doing say
75K or less per month when the Mastercard Chargeback ratios are 1% (one percent) knowing that if you exceed this ratio your
fine is 25K per month plus $25.00 per chargeback with the fines escalating each month thereafter. If
you are processing 75K per month you can't afford a 25K fine per month, period. So who eats the fine? The BANK!
The banks will most likely not be willing to take the risk on mid range accounts in regards to MC. There is just
to much risk and to little reward for the banks on these size accounts.

EPOCH as a 3rd party processor has a huge infrastructure built around processing 5967
credit card transactions and managing all aspects of the transaction, from the initial purchase, worlwide toll free
customer service numbers, 24/7 call center plus all the back office functionality which is required to manage these transactions
so that we can maintain our cbk and credit ratios within card association guidelines.
So when people talk about the high fee 3rd party billers take, they need to realize that it is quite costly to run a 3rd party billing
company.

If you do obtain your own merchant account either you are going to have to learn how to manage
the account properly (and very quickly) or you are going to have to rely on a 3rd party to "partially" manage the account for you.
3rd parties may answer your inbound CS inquiries but there not the ones who get your cbk and retrieval data, reconcile
your merchant statements, deal with the bank, etc....you are!

And how is a 3rd party managing your account supposed to make decisions on how to scrub 5967 transactions when they don't know
who is charging back and who is not? We know because we have 6 years of data. This data is priceless in
being able to adjust our front end filtering to reduce cbks and credits and maximize throughput.

Also in regards to the chunk we take for our services, if you add up all the fees associated with your own
account plus 3rd party fees then there is really not that big a difference in the fees we charge vs. your own merchant acct.


If you obtain your own account and blow it up you are potentially toast and banned from using a 3rd party
processor like Epoch, Ibill etc.. So is it really worth the risk and headaches to open your own merchant acccount to
possibly save a point or two if any?


MultiBill - Good summary, I agree, enough with the pissing, there are some very serious changes coming upon
this industry in regards to billing via credit card. Removal of the CC logos is just the tip of the iceberg.


Clay
EPOCH

I wonder if I can get an XBOX for this thread

Epoch/Rand/Clay

Let's just agree to disagree on the communication issue. As noted, there were other issues involved but I assumed after my conversations with Amparo she was aware and was going to take care of the situation. I will say that in the 2 years we used you previously we never had any problem like that, at all. The only problem we ever had was when you fell behind in payments, but that was worked out and everyone here knows that situation.

I have spoken to Rand this morning and he has been extremely helpful. No doubt it will all be resolved and I can move on.

Thanks for your time, and continued good luck with your company.

Agreed.

Clay

Mitch? I have just got to answer this point by point. Sorry folk for the long post about to come?

You don?t do 3rd Party because you either (a) can?t find a bank with the capacity, or (b) don?t have the financials to step up and assume the risk. On top of that, you have to have a HUGE infrastructure, not just a shop for brokering accounts and providing some ?gateway? functions.

The registration fee is a high-risk registration fee that has been around for years. The fee we have been discussing for days now is the NEW Sub Merchant Registration. It is for PSP's only, so you don't have to worry about that in your model.

Fuck disrespect... I do not "know" that we all get our Merchant Accounts from the same banks. As a matter of fact, I ?know? that we don?t. And as for the degree of difficulty, I don?t think there is any secret that there are fewer and fewer banks willing or able to give these accounts. I know you don?t ever miss an opportunity to market your services under the thinly veiled guise of ?being informative?, but don?t bullshit people. Yes, there are Merchant Accounts for high risk, but no, there are none with serious volume capacity and that will be around past November of any size. As a matter of fact, come November, maybe October, some of the obvious places will stop writing accounts and start pushing them to PSP?s. Bad for you? good for me. As for giving ?credit where credit is due?? I don?t see where any is due.

I also read KK?s post below yours. Good job KK. I agree with her, 150%. If I could ?bounce? the way she has, shit? bounce me! She is a program operator with CC processing expertise. That is a great combination, imo.

Chris
CEO
EPOCH

Clay,

I understand your position. I guess what I'm truly concerned about is that this idea is awesome in principle. But, Im worried about the abuse and I guess partially Paycom's ability to be able to handle this abuse.

What I'm saying is that I dont think you guys are wrong..I just cringe at what some people might to do with it. It's somewhat like the 'cookie jar' or 'guns dont kill people..people kill people' analogies. The temptation and potential danger is there if this is not handled in the utmost proper way.

Epoch

Can we still be friends?

I am trying to get ahold of Whitcon Anthony (ex Netpond Anthony) to ask him if he was paid by epoch in full, because last time i brought up epoch to get him to slang some signups he was very weary of sending because of what epoch had did to them

payrollpete,

We want to be friends with everyone


FadeEP - Again I understand your concern, but I have to reinterate that we reinstated free trials almost a year ago, which is ample time to evaluate the billing model. Remember our primary job is to manage risk and maintain ratios.

Clay
EPOCH

very helpful and interesting thread

Chris,

You are wrong on many points. You have no idea of Netbilling's financial capacity or banking relationships. We made a business decision to not do third party long ago. This may or may not change in the future. Part of this decision was based on the fact that our merchants like the fact that we do not take the risk and possibly not being able to pay them or shutting down completely. Be certain that we have always had the capcity to do so if we wanted to.
It does not take much to open an aggregate account. New third party processors turn up every month.

The fact is, you are not the only game in town. I have always had a great deal of respect for Epoch/Paycom and have always been friendly as have they. However, you are doing your company no justice by coming here and acting like some untouchable and slamming me.

Mitch

Mitch:

I am not acting like an untouchable. I am trying to answer questions. In the process you slammed Kim and us for obvious self-promotion. Whatever.

As for your financial capacity, great. As for those ?aggregators? opening up every month, they also close every month too. Companies like EPOCH, CCBill, iBill, WebSiteBilling and Jettis have put literally millions of dollars in infrastructure, capacity and knowledge into this industry and we are all here to stay. Your model is not better, as you always seem to imply; it?s just different, that?s all.

I do have a question: You refer to your clients as ?merchants?. Are you aggregating for any of these merchants? Do you financially co-sign or guarantee the account? What ?skin? do you have in the game? No slamming, just serious questions.

While we obviously want more business we are happy to stay on point, if we are able to, by replying to questions on these boards and not taking every opportunity to market our services to those that are using yours. There is plenty of business to go around. Those Webmasters that want to manage a Merchant Account are going to do just that. But don?t tell me or anyone else here that the biggest players in the business (one of whom is Shaw Internet ? where KK ?bounced?) are being foolish for using third party.

I don?t want to fight with anyone here, but I am sure as hell not going to let things just lay there unanswered. You are the same, obviously. So let?s agree that our models are different and one is not necessarily better than the other. Sound fair>

Chris
?The Untouchable? CEO
EPOCH

Intriguing.

I am, as always, at your disposal. How about a site with a unique "hook"? No trials at all, full signups only. To hell with trials, serious spankers only. It will be glorious.

You've got mail. :D

Chris,

I like the sound of that post much better. We do not take any of the risk on the merchant. Each of our merchants (clients) has their own direct relationship with the aquiring bank. I do not state that our model is better or worse unless I am put on the defensive.
I know very well that a merchant account is right for some and not for others. As a matter of fact, when a webmaster wants to use us and cannot get a merchant account for various reasons, guess where I refer them.... Epoch typically.
I do have to defend our business model on this board occassionally and do so as everyone does at times. You are right, there is plenty of business to go around and a handful of us are doing quite well, all with variations in our business models. It is never my intention to slam anyone until they take on this attitude of "my way or the highway" and have a very closed mind. I am not referring to you, and do not need to name anyone today.

Mitch

Look guys, the reason I'm fanning the flames here is because I am looking at this from my situation. I have a merchant account already. I use it for my mainstream business.

From what I have learned in the past couple of days is my charge taking ability can still be stripped even if I use a 3rd party processor for my porn. That was not the case before. We were safe from harm by hiding in the aggregate chargeback numbers that you guys do. Now that's not the case(?)

Looking at my current scenario, would it make sense for someone like me to use a processing services company in conjunction with my merchant account or stick with my 3rd party company? Why?

Simple questions.

If you have a merchant account for mainstream business then you should be setup with an MCC Code other than 5967 (which in exclusive to adult video text). If you process one adult transaction through that merchant account and it is not setup under 5967 then your acquiring bank is potentially liable for a fine from the card associations, which they would pass on to you in most all cases. I would leave that account for mainstream only, seeing how I don't know what the name of the acquiring bank is then I cannot tell you for certain wether or not they would even allow you to accept adult transactions through that account.

As far as pursuing your own account for adult vs. staying with a 3rd party processor, I recommend staying with a 3rd party processor. Why? because it is our understanding that indivdual submerchants will not be scrutinized within a portfolio just as long as the entire portfolio stays within card association guidelines. That is not to say that once we register each submerchant that VISA cannot tell us to stop processing for some. As long as you have run a clean shop in the past then you will be just fine. Remember we are the merchant. VISA just wants to know who processes with us.

Clay
EPOCH

Great. Keep those referrals coming Mitch! We really do appreciate the business.

CD

LOL, you know we never did trials . . . it was far too easy to get the surfer to pony up the 20 bucks right away!

Dyanna --- I was pretty much saying all that for the masses here (since some have conveniently chosen to ignore my much earlier post on this thread).


Yes, I thought everyone knew that really catchy original sites that have an interesting "hook" incorporated into them equals full signups without the need for trials. No really, I though everyone knew that.

I am big enough to admit when I'm wrong.

Chris
?The Untouchable? CEO
EPOCH


u are a DORK!!

Gee, I always miss the good stuff when my cable modems down...

You say "DORK" like its a bad thing.

I was quoting one of Mitch's lines, asswipe. Keep up or bail out
You are Steve, right, ronin?


KK: I was on a plane for several hours and missed 100 posts.

Chris
CEO
EPOCH

Actually, I called to leave a msg for him today and was asked if I wanted to speak to him and to let me know he was actually e-mailling me at that very moment, I declined and said I'd call him after receiving his e-mail....

He's accessible.

Yeah but I don't understand why you were in an airport changing planes...

well i have been in the adult business, in one way or another, before you got out of diapers.
toys, content, & yes processing. when you have tons of money around, you tend to keep in the loop!! DICK

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris Mallick
[B]

You say "DORK" like its a bad thing.

I was quoting one of Mitch's lines, asswipe. Keep up or bail out
You are Steve, right, ronin?


NO!!

I didn't say I was in an airport changing planes... I was in a plane for several... still not smoking!
C

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ronin
[B]So we still don't know who you are and you still chose to bitch? I guess you're just a bitch-er.

PS: Does this mean we are in a gun fight?

I think ronin is trying to arrange a meeting at the flag pole

haha..i am a bitch-er

It's kinda violent in here.

bring your bullet proof vest!!!