FBI, eBay and Digital Point

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  • just a punk
    So fuckin' bored
    • Jun 2003
    • 32385

    #1

    FBI, eBay and Digital Point

    The knock at the door came at 7:03 a.m.

    Shawn Hogan, the CEO of a successful online marketing company called Digital Point Solutions, was sitting on his sofa. He didn't immediately answer the door. Then the key turned in the lock.

    Nine FBI agents entered Hogan's upscale condo to serve a search warrant. They obtained access from a maintenance worker, according to a copy of the search report.

    The agents took photos of his circular living room, and its wraparound windows looking out onto San Diego. Hogan's white cat appears in several of the pictures, perched unconcerned on a chair, but the real focus of the investigation was his computer equipment. Much of Hogan's apartment was a clutter of screens, hard drives and keyboards ? which the FBI confiscated.

    As they questioned him, Hogan told the agents he had been expecting them.

    eBay paid Hogan a staggering $28 million in affiliate marketing sales commissions over the years, according to court papers.
    Affiliate marketers place ads or links for eBay on their own networks, or on other people's sites, and they collect a cut of any sale the online auction company generates from them. eBay has about 26,000 of them, or more, at any one time, feeding traffic to its auctions.

    But recently Hogan had fallen out with eBay, and the company had sued him, accusing him of fraud. eBay had also been cooperating with the FBI since June 2006 to root out affiliate marketers whose success was a bit too good to be true. The company had even created a piece of software to monitor Hogan's internet traffic ? an online sting operation the company named "Trip Wire."
    eBay alleged that what Hogan did to earn the sting operation and the knock at his door by the FBI was to rig eBay's system so that it falsely credited him for sales he did not generate. He did it by seeding unknowing users with hundreds of thousands of bits of tracking code, or "cookies." If any of those people bought something on eBay, the code signaled to eBay that Hogan should get a cut of the sale ? even though he had done nothing to promote eBay.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/ebay-...dunning-2013-4
    Obey the Cowgod
  • - Jesus Christ -
    Confirmed User
    • Mar 2003
    • 7197

    #2
    Originally posted by CyberSEO
    the code signaled to eBay that Hogan should get a cut of the sale — even though he had done nothing
    He should have called it a "tax" then it would not have been stealing.

    Amen

    Comment

    • Sly
      Let's do some business!
      • Sep 2004
      • 31377

      #3
      Seems like cookie stuffing would be a civil lawsuit. How did the FBI get involved? Wire fraud? Wire fraud is such a broad spectrum of activities, that would be my best guess.
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      Comment

      • just a punk
        So fuckin' bored
        • Jun 2003
        • 32385

        #4
        Originally posted by - Jesus Christ -
        He should have called it a "tax" then it would not have been stealing.
        Cookie stuffing.
        Obey the Cowgod

        Comment

        • - Jesus Christ -
          Confirmed User
          • Mar 2003
          • 7197

          #5
          Originally posted by Sly
          Seems like cookie stuffing would be a civil lawsuit. How did the FBI get involved? Wire fraud? Wire fraud is so broad, that would be my best guess.
          "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

          The US isn't currently fascist... right?

          nah.... couldn't be....

          Amen

          Comment

          • Vapid - BANNED FOR LIFE
            Barterer
            • Aug 2004
            • 4864

            #6
            Originally posted by - Jesus Christ -
            "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

            The US isn't currently fascist... right?

            nah.... couldn't be....
            Yes by definition america is tyrannical, theological and fascist.

            Comment

            • BlackCrayon
              Too lazy to set a custom title
              • Jun 2003
              • 19634

              #7
              arrest all the cookie stuffers for all i care. they are fraudsters plain and simple.
              you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..

              Comment

              • BFT3K
                Too lazy to set a custom title
                • Dec 2005
                • 10764

                #8
                So some douchebag rips eBay for tens of million$, and it's law enforcement that's wrong here?

                Just trying to clarify...

                Comment

                • just a punk
                  So fuckin' bored
                  • Jun 2003
                  • 32385

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Sly
                  Seems like cookie stuffing would be a civil lawsuit. How did the FBI get involved?
                  Have no clue. The US laws are so complicated to me. For example, in my country it's not a crime at all.
                  Obey the Cowgod

                  Comment

                  • BlackCrayon
                    Too lazy to set a custom title
                    • Jun 2003
                    • 19634

                    #10
                    Originally posted by CyberSEO
                    Have no clue. The US laws are so complicated to me. For example, in my country it's not a crime at all.
                    isn't fraud illegal? and many things can fall under what fraud is. so..
                    you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..

                    Comment

                    • crockett
                      in a van by the river
                      • May 2003
                      • 76818

                      #11
                      Wonder what that means for digital point forums.
                      In November, you can vote for America's next president or its first dictator.

                      Comment

                      • - Jesus Christ -
                        Confirmed User
                        • Mar 2003
                        • 7197

                        #12
                        Originally posted by BlackCrayon
                        arrest all the cookie stuffers for all i care. they are fraudsters plain and simple.
                        "Arrest people that I don't like... fuck the rule of law!" *air guitar*

                        The problem with the politically retarded is that they are becoming a danger to the rest of us.

                        Amen

                        Comment

                        • wehateporn
                          Promoting Debate on GFY
                          • Apr 2007
                          • 27176

                          #13
                          Originally posted by crockett
                          Wonder what that means for digital point forums.
                          This happened some time back now, but DP has continued

                          Comment

                          • BlackCrayon
                            Too lazy to set a custom title
                            • Jun 2003
                            • 19634

                            #14
                            Originally posted by - Jesus Christ -
                            "Arrest people that I don't like... fuck the rule of law!" *air guitar*

                            The problem with the politically retarded is that they are becoming a danger to the rest of us.
                            so you are in favor of fraud? good to know.
                            you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..

                            Comment

                            • Harmon
                              ( ͡ʘ╭͜ʖ╮͡ʘ)
                              • Mar 2004
                              • 20012

                              #15
                              Originally posted by - Jesus Christ -
                              He should have called it a "tax" then it would not have been stealing.
                              I'm pretty sure I hate you... and I am definitely sure you hate me, however...

                              Bravo.
                              [email protected]

                              Comment

                              • just a punk
                                So fuckin' bored
                                • Jun 2003
                                • 32385

                                #16
                                Originally posted by BlackCrayon
                                isn't fraud illegal? and many things can fall under what fraud is. so..
                                It depends whet exactly could be called as a fraud. For example you have bought some links to your website to fake Google and make it (your site) appear higher in the SERP's. Is it a fraud or not?
                                Obey the Cowgod

                                Comment

                                • BlackCrayon
                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                  • Jun 2003
                                  • 19634

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by CyberSEO
                                  It depends whet exactly could be called as a fraud. For example you have bought some links to your website to fake Google and make it (your site) appear higher in the SERP's. Is it a fraud or not?
                                  i suppose it could be considered fraud but google still benefits no matter how you seo your pages. whereas with cookie stuffing ebay was paying out millions for nothing. hogan didn't promote ebay, all he did was put cookies on millions of computers so anytime someone visited ebay he got paid. basically theft.
                                  you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..

                                  Comment

                                  • Penny24Seven
                                    So Fucking What
                                    • Jun 2007
                                    • 6287

                                    #18
                                    FBI got in on it because of the money. Oh he is banking. Lets go take all his shit. Give him a fine for the amount of what he is worth and move on
                                    Our site is coming soon. It will be one of the best ever! I know so. Brian and Penny

                                    Comment

                                    • shake
                                      frc
                                      • Jul 2003
                                      • 4663

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by BlackCrayon
                                      i suppose it could be considered fraud but google still benefits no matter how you seo your pages. whereas with cookie stuffing ebay was paying out millions for nothing. hogan didn't promote ebay, all he did was put cookies on millions of computers so anytime someone visited ebay he got paid. basically theft.
                                      It's amazing they didn't catch him sooner. It doesn't seem like it would be very hard to catch with a little programming and the occasional manual human check.
                                      Crazy fast VPS for $10 a month. Try with $20 free credit

                                      Comment

                                      • just a punk
                                        So fuckin' bored
                                        • Jun 2003
                                        • 32385

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by BlackCrayon
                                        i suppose it could be considered fraud but google still benefits no matter how you seo your pages. whereas with cookie stuffing ebay was paying out millions for nothing.
                                        Ok, let's say you are putting Google Adsense code into other pages that are not allowed by Google rules (remember, Google pays out millions for Adsense blocks). E.g. the sites, automatically generated by the scripts. Is that a reason to put you into the jail?
                                        Obey the Cowgod

                                        Comment

                                        • Due
                                          Confirmed User
                                          • Mar 2001
                                          • 3620

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by CyberSEO
                                          Ok, let's say you are putting Google Adsense code into other pages that are not allowed by Google rules (remember, Google pays out millions for Adsense blocks). E.g. the sites, automatically generated by the scripts. Is that a reason to put you into the jail?
                                          That is conspiracy to commit wire fraud
                                          I buy plugs
                                          Skype: Due_Global
                                          /Due

                                          Comment

                                          • just a punk
                                            So fuckin' bored
                                            • Jun 2003
                                            • 32385

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Due
                                            That is conspiracy to commit wire fraud
                                            I didn't get it. So if you made a splog using sponsored RSS feeds or put a Google ad block to such a site, you can get a prison time for a wire fraud? Are you serious?
                                            Obey the Cowgod

                                            Comment

                                            • signupdamnit
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • Aug 2007
                                              • 6697

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by BlackCrayon
                                              isn't fraud illegal? and many things can fall under what fraud is. so..
                                              It definitely is. But OTOH we all know that millions if not billions has been stolen from affiliates over the last two decades using various methods of fraud such as shaving. In our industry we even had software companies openly making "shaving software". Clearly this is fraud or is aiding in fraudulent activities. So who has gone to jail or had their house or business raided over it? Can anyone give me any names? It would be nice to see some action on the other side of things too.

                                              You don't like my posts? Put me on ignore or fuck right off. I'll say what I want.

                                              Comment

                                              • BlackCrayon
                                                Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                • Jun 2003
                                                • 19634

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by CyberSEO
                                                Ok, let's say you are putting Google Adsense code into other pages that are not allowed by Google rules (remember, Google pays out millions for Adsense blocks). E.g. the sites, automatically generated by the scripts. Is that a reason to put you into the jail?
                                                i wouldn't say so. despite it being against the rules it still requires people to visit and click in order to make money and for every click, google makes money as well. its not really comparable. if you were auto generating clicks and got away with it to the tune of 20 million dollars, well then that would land you in some serious trouble i would imagine.
                                                you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..

                                                Comment

                                                • Supz
                                                  Arthur Flegenheimer
                                                  • Jul 2006
                                                  • 11057

                                                  #25
                                                  Its funny "Ebay knew was I was doing" They sure did. Its called a sting operation. They arent in trouble for cookie stuffing. They are in trouble for what the cookie stuffing did for them monetarily.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • TheSquealer
                                                    Mayor of Thneedville
                                                    • Oct 2004
                                                    • 26184

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Sly
                                                    Seems like cookie stuffing would be a civil lawsuit. How did the FBI get involved? Wire fraud? Wire fraud is such a broad spectrum of activities, that would be my best guess.
                                                    I don't look but ebays claims are likely civil. I would guess the law views cookie stuffing as stealing from /defrauding webmasters.
                                                    .
                                                    Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

                                                    Rochard

                                                    Comment

                                                    • BlackCrayon
                                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                      • Jun 2003
                                                      • 19634

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by TheSquealer
                                                      I don't look but ebays claims are likely civil. I would guess the law views cookie stuffing as stealing from /defrauding webmasters.
                                                      they view as wire fraud. not sure why exactly but cookie stuffing does destroy the affiliate model.
                                                      you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..

                                                      Comment

                                                      • BlackCrayon
                                                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                        • Jun 2003
                                                        • 19634

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by signupdamnit
                                                        It definitely is. But OTOH we all know that millions if not billions has been stolen from affiliates over the last two decades using various methods of fraud such as shaving. In our industry we even had software companies openly making "shaving software". Clearly this is fraud or is aiding in fraudulent activities. So who has gone to jail or had their house or business raided over it? Can anyone give me any names? It would be nice to see some action on the other side of things too.
                                                        yeah, the only reason anything happened is because its big ass ebay. the tubes are cookie stuffing for cam sites and nothing is happening.
                                                        you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Robbie
                                                          Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                          • Aug 2002
                                                          • 20960

                                                          #29
                                                          A few years back I met this girl at a bar with big tits. And since I LOVE big tits, we started talking. I bought some drinks, we got high, etc.
                                                          I took her home.

                                                          When we got naked it turned out she was wearing a padded, push-up bra!!! And her tits weren't very big at all.

                                                          I shoulda called the FBI for "Fraud" and "bra stuffing"
                                                          -Robbie
                                                          ClaudiaMarie.Com

                                                          Comment

                                                          • TheSquealer
                                                            Mayor of Thneedville
                                                            • Oct 2004
                                                            • 26184

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by BlackCrayon
                                                            they view as wire fraud. not sure why exactly but cookie stuffing does destroy the affiliate model.
                                                            I assume that he caused eBay to pay commissions in sales where otherwise none would be due and none were earned. Wire fraud is a broad crime and incidentally also means computer fraud would be charged as well as a host of other state and federal charges relating to fraud which overlap in their applications and definitions.
                                                            .
                                                            Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

                                                            Rochard

                                                            Comment

                                                            • DBS.US
                                                              Geo Cities
                                                              • Aug 2003
                                                              • 11841

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Robbie
                                                              A few years back I met this girl at a bar with big tits. And since I LOVE big tits, we started talking. I bought some drinks, we got high, etc.
                                                              I took her home.

                                                              When we got naked it turned out she was wearing a padded, push-up bra!!! And her tits weren't very big at all.

                                                              I shoulda called the FBI for "Fraud" and "bra stuffing"
                                                              Civil case, sue for cost of drinks and you time
                                                              Have an unused domain? Make a Free Chaturbate White Label site and be making money tonight

                                                              Comment

                                                              • adulttraffic
                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                • Mar 2006
                                                                • 797

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                A few years back I met this girl at a bar with big tits. And since I LOVE big tits, we started talking. I bought some drinks, we got high, etc.
                                                                I took her home.

                                                                When we got naked it turned out she was wearing a padded, push-up bra!!! And her tits weren't very big at all.

                                                                I shoulda called the FBI for "Fraud" and "bra stuffing"
                                                                Respect My Authoritah!

                                                                Comment

                                                                • MainstreamGuy
                                                                  So Fucking Banned
                                                                  • Oct 2011
                                                                  • 477

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Interesting.

                                                                  I remember reading somewhere that the owner of Digital Point had some problem with massive cookie stuffing in the past in his forum, is this the same problem? Is it related?

                                                                  This was years ago.. Wow it took long.

                                                                  BTW, after doing 30 million, he had that small modest apartment?... Strange.
                                                                  Last edited by MainstreamGuy; 05-04-2013, 01:50 PM.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Ringo
                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                    • Nov 2012
                                                                    • 431

                                                                    #34
                                                                    LOL i remember a post of Shawn on DP asking for donations to pay the hosting bills

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • mineistaken
                                                                      See signature :)
                                                                      • Apr 2007
                                                                      • 29656

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by CyberSEO
                                                                      I didn't get it. So if you made a splog using sponsored RSS feeds or put a Google ad block to such a site, you can get a prison time for a wire fraud? Are you serious?
                                                                      Why do you post these wrong comparisons? (Better comparison would be that you fake generated clicks and got paid for them).

                                                                      With cookie stuffing its 100% clear fraud/theft.
                                                                      Cookie stuffer, ebay surfer and ebay. Stuffer stuffs surfer, surfer goes to ebay, ebay pays stuffer. Stuffer stole moeny from ebay. Its that simple.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • JamesM
                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                        • Nov 2012
                                                                        • 732

                                                                        #36
                                                                        People still does that ?

                                                                        i thought companies have custom system in place which tracks the fraud/ cookie stuffing and bans account


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                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Captain Kawaii
                                                                          So Fucking Banned
                                                                          • Oct 2007
                                                                          • 6748

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Monotony
                                                                          Yes by definition america is tyrannical, theological and fascist.
                                                                          - America, land of the wiretapped.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • johnnyloadproductions
                                                                            Account Shutdown
                                                                            • Oct 2008
                                                                            • 3611

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by CyberSEO
                                                                            I didn't get it. So if you made a splog using sponsored RSS feeds or put a Google ad block to such a site, you can get a prison time for a wire fraud? Are you serious?
                                                                            Are you wrapping up some of your affiliate codes in software you bundle and give away?
                                                                            If I do everything I can to replace your cookie then I think that's wire fraud.

                                                                            I wouldn't mind paying affiliates if they sent people over under the premise they knew what they were getting.

                                                                            I would have interest in prosecuting someone who tried to get affiliate commission from me even if it were by chance and because mainstream ebay caters to everyone that's a very high possibility.

                                                                            The think I love about the article is the infamous "7am raid"

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • kane
                                                                              Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                              • Aug 2001
                                                                              • 20684

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by CyberSEO
                                                                              I didn't get it. So if you made a splog using sponsored RSS feeds or put a Google ad block to such a site, you can get a prison time for a wire fraud? Are you serious?
                                                                              That isn't what he was doing.

                                                                              Here is an example that might not be 100% accurate, but still fits the basic idea.

                                                                              In my town there is a grocery store that has a rewards card. When you shop you slide your card through the card reader and they track your purchases then every 3 months they give you rewards based on how much you spent.

                                                                              So lets say they hired you to promote them. Your job is to go out and give people rewards cards. These cards will have a piece of code in them that when swiped will tell the stores computers you sent this person to them and you will get a commission on the sale.

                                                                              So if you stand outside a high school football game and hand a card to everyone that leaves or enters the game you are basically making splogs. You are giving away a lot cards, but likely not making a lot of money and what money you do make you did earn because you did hand the card out.

                                                                              Then one day you devise a way to use your laptop and an antenna that will broadcast at a frequency that can communicate with the strip on the card. You make it so that whenever you send out this broadcast anyone within range who has one of those cards will now have your code embedded on it. You didn't give them the card, you just, unknown to them, modified their card so you get a commission on every sale. Now you can just sit in the parking lot and broadcast a few times per day and rake in the sales without doing anything. That is fraud and that is basically what this guy was doing.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • grumpy
                                                                                Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                • Jan 2002
                                                                                • 9870

                                                                                #40
                                                                                so if you are doing to good, they will monitor you traffic and kick you out.
                                                                                Don't let greediness blur your vision | You gotta let some shit slide
                                                                                icq - 441-456-888

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • rowan
                                                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                  • Mar 2002
                                                                                  • 17393

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  What I don't get - why would ebay encourage him to continue? They make a loss with his cookie stuffing. The employees who were virtually sucking his dick must have been clueless and thought he was actually bringing in sales, not just reaping profits from them.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • mamaliga
                                                                                    la gente está muy loca
                                                                                    • Mar 2011
                                                                                    • 1323

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by rowan
                                                                                    What I don't get - why would ebay encourage him to continue? They make a loss with his cookie stuffing. The employees who were virtually sucking his dick must have been clueless and thought he was actually bringing in sales, not just reaping profits from them.
                                                                                    Maybe FBI found somehow about ebay tolerate practices , threatening them and they simple rat DP.
                                                                                    Last edited by mamaliga; 05-05-2013, 03:41 AM.

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