Would you like to see Israel take a beating?

Never say never.

Good point, because I certainly can visualize scenarios where we should/would allow this to happen.

Israel has nukes. If it gets to that point Israel will use them and probably without too much flack from the US government. There are a lot of Jewish voters here and Christians who support Israel.

So you've pretty much got it all figured out have you? It's set in your mind that my suggestion is no good for you no matter what anyone says. Right?

Then don't sit there and say that your life and the lives of your wife and kids are most important to you. They aren't. If they were you wouldn't hesitate.

It's not only in Toronto that you'd be welcomed. All over Canada, and I'm sure most of the big U.S. cities as well, people simply wouldn't really care where you're from. You speak decent English, you're a smart guy, I'm sure you'd get along just fine and feel like anything BUT an outsider.

But don't tell me your family is important to you and then reject a direct suggestion to aid in their safety bro. It doesn't wash. You're willing to subject them to living in fear for another 3 to 5 years, never knowing if one day one of you or all of you will get blown up. Crazy.

Allah'u akbar

Yes, Israel has nukes.
They have not been fully tested yet though.

Have you considered the effect of using nuclear weapons on a peace of land only 20,000 square KM in size?

If it comes down to them possibly losing they're home they'll do whatever they have to do.

This is the Holy Land. I dont think the Jews are dumb enough to nuke a land as important as the place that God allegedly gave them as their home. I think the dirt means more to them than the dirt in your backyard does to you.

If they are under attack, there military can hold up quit well. As they nuke off there borders.

Who's dumb enough to nuke themselves??

The holy land comprises the entire region though, not just Isreal. There are many noteable sites and structures that are considered sacred to much of the Christian & Jewish world that are far outsite the border of Isreal.

Think about it. They're going to risk levelling the pyramids? The sphynx? Pollute the sea of Galilea? C'mon now. Possessing nukes comes with some responsibility, or it should.

I don't think it will ever get to that point really. They could kill all the palestinians easily by conventional means if they wanted. They choose not to.

I bet if the palestinians possessed nukes they wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger.

With guys like Gaddam Insane pulling strings from behind the scenes in Bagdad, you never know what weapons are truly poised in that theatre.

Running away when it's hard is not a solution.
If people like will take their feet and run, who will stay here to keep this country going ?
In fact, in a couple of months I have 32+ days of reserve military service and I'll go an fulfil my duty.
I saw here a different thread about why Europeans hate Americans.
Let me tell you that not only that I don't hate Americans, I admire them and they inspire me.
People tend to slander Bush, but I saw how he fought & fighting terrorism and I can only salute the man for that.
At last there's someone in this world who doesn't take anybody's crap.

Why am I staying ?
First of all, I'm 30, single, no wife yet, no kids (as far as I know) so my decision involves me and me alone.
Since 1948 something like 1500 people died in terror attacks in Israel.
Compare it to 3000 that died in one single day on 9/11.
That's funny, I didn't see New Yorkers running away from their beloved city and I don't wonder why.
I totally understand it.
This is their city, this where they built their lives and terror (including nuclear one) can strike you anywhere, anytime.
So I'm staying here in my country because this is my place.
Theoretically, if I had a specific good business opportunity elsewhere for a specific period of time I'd probably look at it, but running for the sake of running is out of the question.

As for "what if" America leaves us.
First, I don't see it in the near future of the next 25-50 years, but I agree with the general idea of "never say never".
I can only say that it's very hard to imagine but if it will happen I have no doubt that we will continue to be here standing on our feet.
In 48 when we were only half a million people here, no arms, no regular army, no US backing we won the battle against 5 strong Arab armies.
Today Israel has one of the strongest armies in the world, and I'm saying it not because I read it in some paper.
I am a part of that army.
Here, military service is mandatory between the ages 18-21, then you do reserve service about once a year for a month more or less.

Yes, we have nuclear weapons because that is our insurance policy against Arab countries hate.
Unlike all the corrupt Arab regimes Israel is a democracy (the only one in the middle east), so the use of this weapon is not in the hands of "one crazy leader" but rather in the hands of a responsible government.
We will never use that nuclear weapon unless we will be 100% with our backs to the wall (or to the sea for that matter).
Israel is being assisted a lot by the US and personally, although I know many political interests are involved, I am very very appreciative.
I don't take any of this for granted.
However, I know that even someday, if the US will stop its backing, we will continue to win all wars if ones will unfortunately occur.
We have one little secret that helps us to win every single war: we have nowhere else to go.

Exactly...that's why we gonna stay here no matter what

Good post. It was just reported on FOX news that Israel is coming under critisism again, even by the USA, for the tactics it is using durning the current reprisals. Group punishment for the acts of a single person is the reason why ie. dozing down houses.

Israel is indeed under criticism.
But the criticism is not our biggest problem.
Our biggest problem is how to deter suicide bombers from fulfilling their murder campaigns.
How can you deter a person who is brainwashed, incited, thinks he's doing a noble thing, persuaded that 72 virgins are waiting for him in heaven and knowing that he's helping his familiy ?
He's helping his family because Saddam Hussein is paying 25,000$ to the family of each suicide bomber !!!
How can you deter such a person ?
You obviously can't threat him with long prison sentences, after all, he's willing to die - right ?

Well, actually there is one thing that has not been tested yet.
Will a suicide bomber go out to his murder campaign knowing that if he does, his home will be demolished and his family will be deported ?
Actually I don't have the answer for that, I simply don't know but I'm willing to test it for a couple of months.
I prefer to face criticism from other countries for certain tactics that we use over attending some of my loved one's funerals that happened because we were not doing anything in our power to stop these unnecessary deaths.

Just call it a hunch, but I am guessing it will make them even angrier.

So you are willing to punish a whole family for a familymembers actions? Doesn't that seem a little bit fucked up to you?

Ok you don't want Israelis dead, but how many human rights are you gonna take away from all palestinians to accomplish that?

And you wonder you everybody here is critizing israel...

Unfortunately this is only way to overcame Muslims fanatics - this is exactly what Russians does in 1930s in their Asian republic. They expel family to Siberia (if somebody from the family was engage in anti-soviet activity) and put religious clerics in prison. 5 years of this shit, but long peace after. There is no other way to fight Muslim fanatics

Doesn't seem fucked up to me at all. War isn't about being nice. if I was in charge of a country that suffered these kinds of attacks with such frequency, the consequences would be much worse.

I dont know whether to cry or froth at the mouth at your ignorance.

I see that you're from Sweden.
I don't know how many suicide bombings ever took place in Sweden but my guess is that none.
It's very easy to criticize others when the most horrible things that can happen in your country are road accidents.
I have no doubt in my mind that when the interests of other countries' citizens security will be at stake, those governments will use a totally different standard, but it's ok - we're used to double standards.

After 9/11 tons of people have been arrested by US authorities and were kept behind bars for months.
What about their rights ?

Us bombers turned Afghanistan into a sand box, killing scores of innocent civilians.
What about their rights ?

I don't remember Europe defending my grandparents rights when our family was almost completely destroyed in the holocaust.
Europe, the human rights homeland was the place where the biggest war crime in history, a genocide, took place.
What did your Swedish family do back then to defend my family's human rights ?
Not much I guess.

Who is defending my human right to live without being killed by a suicide bomber ?
You ?
I don't think so.

When it comes to defending my life from a person who's aim is to kill me, my family and my people I will do anything in my power to stop him.
After all, when I'm being criticized by you, it's not the most pleasant thing in the world, but I'll survive.
However, when I'll meet the next suicide bomber on the street, I will probably not survive.

When it comes to choosing between death or life with criticism the choice is pretty easy.

huh?

If it was genocide, there would be none of you left. Stop throwing that term if you dont know how to use it.

The Jews, they committ genocide. Several times in their history.

And then they cry about a genocide that never occurred.

You don?t know what are you tacking about... This is exactly how it was. Peace from 1939, I think. Do you heard something about "basmachi" - I am not sure there is a translation in English

The gulags were for anybody who Stalin didnt like.

Farmers who didnt want to turn their family farms over to the state, gulag. Russian Orthodox Christian clergy, gulag. Teachers, writers, politicians, poets, anyone that Stalin didnt feel was 100% with the state, into the fucking gulag you go.

They were all used as slave labor. And to say they got out in 5 years is absurd. Most people never left the gulags alive.

Millions of people disappeared into them.

Where the fuck did you learn history?

The gulags accomplished nothing.

You're right, silly me.
The holoacast never happened, 6 millions jews were not gased to death, it's all zionist propaganda.
I didn't know I was dealling with a history expert.

Could it be any worse than yours?

Two examples off the top of my head...

1. Your recent cries on another thread that Israelis were commtting genocide of the Palestinians -- This is either profoundly absurd, or the Israelis are beyond incompetent.

2. Your repeated portrayals of pro-Israeli types as lefties -- The Palestinian cause is the pet cause of Leftists everywhere, including Israel, and it's glaringly obvious.

Haha, I see when I hit preview, you are on someone else about using the term genocide. Un fucking believable.

We are not talking only about Stalin - Russia before Stalin use the same policy against Muslims fanatics. And many other European countries when they fight Muslims in the 19 century. May be this is only way.

The constant ranting by the Zionists regarding the "holocaust" during WWII is bullshit because after all was said and done, there were still Jews alive. Therefore, it was not a "genocide".

A genocide would be the Canaanites, the Tazmanians. Cultures that actually were completely destroyed.

When I use the term genocide in refering to the Palestinians, it is an ongoing episode



And this is precisely what Israel is doing right now on all accounts.

Whether or not they succeed remains to be seen. So for now, yes... it is an attempted genocide. Get it?


So whats your point? You are agreeing with me?

The genocide against Jews in WWII was not complete because Hitler was defeat - but he try hard to do it and it cost 6 mil. of Jews life. How many Palestinians was killed in the last 40 years? Complete absurd what you just said .

The numbers are irrelevant jerk off. Whether it be 500 people or 40 million people, genocide is genocide.

So what the Australians did to the Tazmanians shouldnt be called genocide because only a few thousand needed to die before the job was complete?

There are only a few hundred Haida natives in SE Alaska, if the United States decided to kill them off it wouldnt be genocide because there were only a couple hundred of them left?

Do you actually think before you type?

Yes, I think everybody gets that it was an attempted genocide and not a completely successful one.



You cannot be serious.






I'll reiterate with caps...

2. Your repeated portrayals of pro-Israeli types as lefties -- The PALESTINIAN cause is the pet cause of Leftists everywhere, including Israel, and it's glaringly obvious.

The point is you seem to think that the Israeli cause is a leftist cause, when the exact opposite is true.

What a joke !!Lambert ? a lot of Palestinians live and work in Israel ands nobody kill them as Palestinians. I work there for 3 years and I saw this.

Time will tell, but I don't think that Sweden will be a victim of suice bombings for no reason just as Israel ain't a victim for no reason. And I won't be blindly supporting my country if I think it is doing wrong.

I have critized US on both those parts.

I'm originaly from Russia and my grandfather fought against the nazis. But It is absurd for me to be proud of something my granpa did? It's even more absurd for me to blamed/proud for my countries actions if I myself don't even agree with those. You on the other hand agree upon the fact of taking away human rights from the palestinians and therefore you are open to critizism in my eyes.

Your country is, but when you defend your human rights by taking away other peoples human rights, do you even have any respect for human rights?

Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but your original contention was that because only a few Palestinians have died, that to consider it an attempted genocide was abusrd.

I point out where you are wrong, and you reply with how you have seen Palestinians working in Israel in the past.

Champion of the debate club yes?

Are they working now? Or do you think this 24 hour curfew is preventing most of them from having those high paying jobs in Israel? How exactly do you feed yourself when you cant work?

You dont.

Then who was it that taught me my whole life that I was a friend of Israel?

Who made me watch hours of horrible "holocaust" footage in school and tried to teach me to love everybody.

Who pounded into my head as a kid that Jews were nothing more than a peace loving gentle folk that people just seem to hate for no reason?

Oh yeah... it was the right. Those god damn right winger hippy fucks. One minute they are trying to crush civil rights and trying to keep homosexuals fromm getting married, the next day they are teaching me how to be loving and caring towards the friendly Zionists.

yeah.

No I point out nobody kill palestinians as palestinians

Most leftist in Sweden have some fucked up opinions, one minute they are trying to push gay/woman rights and the second they are trying to get people to accept islam.

huh?

Tell that to the 2000 Palestinian and Lebanese women and children that died in the 1982 massacre at Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.

Surely they werent all killed because they were children and female soldiers?

Who was found responsible for that action again?

Here is a hint

Actually they planned to allow 3000 workers from Gaza to enter Israel this week to work, but becuase of the bus bombing all of those plans got cancelled

Now I see what the problem is. You were raised in some forced Jew-loving cult.

I do seem to recall that we watched holocaust films in school once though.

Tell that to the 2000 Palestinian and Lebanese women and children that died in the 1982 massacre at Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.

Surely they werent all killed because they were children and female soldiers?

Who was found responsible for that action again?

Here is a hint
[/quote][/b]

The south lebanese arab Christians that murdered them becuase the Arabs murdered their families...... The Israilies where just allied to the Christians, it doesnt mean that they supported what they did. During Afganistan the US allied with the northern alliance and if the Northern Allience did something similar the US should not be blamed. What your saying now is completely baseless why should Israel be blamed for something another country did. If canada decided to kill all eskimos or somethign should the US be blamed becase we are their ally?

This one is a classic. Christian Arabs slaughter Muslim Arabs and who gets blamed? The Jews of course. Makes me laugh every time.

The truth can be painful, that doesnt mean we should close our eyes and stick out head in the ground

Yeah, its called the United States.

Did you fucking sleep through the 90s?

Like I stated previous.

If I walked down the street with a tshirt that said "fuck the Hindus"... odds are nobody is going to say jack shit.

Now let me slap on my "fuck the jews" tshirt.

You think I will make it very far down the street before someone called me a fucking neo nazi hate monger?

The only thing I will admit, is that of late, the left has picked up the cause of the Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims etc etc. The left always love the downtrodden and oppressed and despise anything that may be viewed as leaning towards the right.

And of course with America allowing Israel to suckle of the giant American tax titty, the left sees the right giving support to Israel.

If the right likes it, the fucking left hates it.

It must be a very confusing time to be a lefty these days. You cant ciriticize Israel or you will be labeled an antisemite, but if you embrace the Palestinians, you may as well get on your knees and suck Osamas cock. Terrible catch 22.

Thats why I hate lefties. They are bandwagon jumpers.

the term is inuit (it's not pc to say eskimo anymore)