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Paul Markham

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#1

Another hole for the creationist debate.

06-14-2012, 11:22 PM

Enough with business and all the troubles we face. Let's talk about something else.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...cave-paintings

Several times in the past 10 years scientists have had to rewrite the textbooks on Neanderthals, the latest species of human to go extinct. Once the archetype for primitive, uncivilised behaviour, the species, illuminated through fossil excavations and lately analysis of their genome, has emerged as being not too dissimilar from our own.

I get to watch a lot of TV now and learning a lot about how the Earth, creatures on it and man evolved. It all flies in the face of religions myth.

Now we see that the Neanderthals weren't the dumb creatures we thought, they had art, tools, jewelery, etc.

and in the ascent of man we are filling in the gaps all the time. Lucy was thought to be one of the first humanoids. Now that has been changed and they found Ardi who predates Lucy.

Dinosaurs walked the Earth from 150 million years ago to 75 million years. Home Sapiens, that's you and me, 200,000 years ago.

In fact the cave man, hunter gatherer model lasted longer than what civilised man has. The first farmers were 10,000 years ago.

Fascinating subject and puts so much into perspective. We are here for a micro second in the time scale of the world, of life on earth, even of man on the Earth.

Just thought I would share this with you.

Flame away.

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Paul Markham

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#2

06-14-2012, 11:42 PM

So if God created the world and all living things on it. He really wasn't that good. He got more wrong than right.

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#3

06-15-2012, 03:45 AM

Technically, it's not terribly strong evidence that neandertals practiced a lot of art. Altho we have other evidence, of better quality, of neandertal art mobile' and burial customs and the like, from sites like Shanidar.

There is nothing in this new and recently described discovery that has any real bearing on the creationism debate.

Of course you would have to be an idiot to put any serious credence to creationism.
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#4

06-15-2012, 04:12 AM

Originally posted by Bill8

Technically, it's not terribly strong evidence that neandertals practiced a lot of art. Altho we have other evidence, of better quality, of neandertal art mobile' and burial customs and the like, from sites like Shanidar.

There is nothing in this new and recently described discovery that has any real bearing on the creationism debate.

Of course you would have to be an idiot to put any serious credence to creationism.

Agreed. Recent discoveries about Neanderthals is casting a much better light on them. Yet making their disappearance more strange. There is some evidence that Homo Sapiens mixed and had sex. This is coming out with DNA.

Of course you would have to be an idiot to put any serious credence to religion. Small change.

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#5

06-15-2012, 04:18 AM

I think about that stuff sometimes. It is humbling. Anything and everything any of us will ever say or do is totally irrelevant in the grand scheme of the universe, which is so vast it does not even notice our existence.

At best, we'll kill humanity off or destroy another planet or two somewhere down the road, but I'll be surprised if we last that long.
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#6

06-15-2012, 04:32 AM

History is quickly sliding into series featuring Bozo', idiots, half rate comedians and little history.

WTF is Historical about guys driving trucks, stuffing dead animals, killing alligators in a swamp or some loony stretching facts out of shape to fit some myth about Aliens? A recent program was so stupid it made most of the theories look sane. The guy was putting forward that the Aliens, who were capable of flying across the Universe, needed a line of stones to guide them once they got to the Earth.

I kid you not.

Then we get the personality led programs. Pawn Stars, Storage wars, American Pickers, Mud Men, 80% dribble and 20% history and sometimes some clowning about.

As for the series "Only in America" Yes this is spot on. Only in America would a company produce such dribble and find an audience.

Thankfully for the other History channel and Nat Geo.

</rant>

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#7

06-15-2012, 04:34 AM
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#8

06-15-2012, 04:46 AM

If there is no God, then who wrote the Bible?
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#9

06-15-2012, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by B.Barnato

If there is no God, then who wrote the Bible?

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#10

06-15-2012, 06:24 AM

Facts, shmackts.

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#11

06-15-2012, 06:37 AM

Uhg, I always despise this debate.

Evolution, and all the facts of organisms on the planet millions of years ago does not put a hole in the creationist debate.

Evolution does not prove or disprove that there is/was a "god".

And before anyone gets their panties in a bunch. I fully believe that there is no god, and do not believe in creationism. I simply believe in people getting their facts straight when arguing something.
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#12

06-15-2012, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by DWB

I think about that stuff sometimes. It is humbling. Anything and everything any of us will ever say or do is totally irrelevant in the grand scheme of the universe, which is so vast it does not even notice our existence.

At best, we'll kill humanity off or destroy another planet or two somewhere down the road, but I'll be surprised if we last that long.

When you think about how long we've been on Earth, how long we've been "civilised" and how much of a fuck up we've made of it. It makes me very sad.

Crocodiles have existed and flourished 200 million years. Now thanks to man, they face extinction.

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#13

06-15-2012, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by DWB

I think about that stuff sometimes. It is humbling. Anything and everything any of us will ever say or do is totally irrelevant in the grand scheme of the universe, which is so vast it does not even notice our existence.

At best, we'll kill humanity off or destroy another planet or two somewhere down the road, but I'll be surprised if we last that long.

I thought about this a lot too. Maybe there have been other civilizations before ours, and every time they ended up destroying themselves by a global nuke war, and maybe that's why the planet is still boiling inside. After each destroy a few insects or small fish or mammals survive and revolution starts all over again till the next full destruction and this process continues to repeat itself over and over again. A nightmare!

Sometimes it seems the good times
Never will return
A lot has changed, babe
´Cause evil rules the world

You said you´re looking for a place
Where there´s no hate
Oh, babe, it really makes no sense
To escape

How long will it take
To make the world a flaming star
How long will it take
Till they stop their senseless wars
How long will it take
Till everybody will understand
That we need to fill our hearts with love again

The only future we´ve got
Exists right now
Let´s take the time, babe
As long as the world is turning ´round

How long will it take
To make the earth a fireball
How long will it take
Till no more life exists at all
How long will it take
Till everybody will understand
That we need to fill our hearts with love again

It´s up to you
To fight the evil in your mind
It´s up to you
The more love you give, the more you´ll find
The more love you give, the more you´ll find

Don´t make the world a flaming star
Stop, stop all these senseless wars
How long will it take
Till everybody will understand
That we need to fill our hearts with love again
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#14

06-15-2012, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by B.Barnato

If there is no God, then who wrote the Bible?

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#15

06-15-2012, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by potter

Uhg, I always despise this debate.

Evolution, and all the facts of organisms on the planet millions of years ago does not put a hole in the creationist debate.

Evolution does not prove or disprove that there is/was a "god".

And before anyone gets their panties in a bunch. I fully believe that there is no god, and do not believe in creationism. I simply believe in people getting their facts straight when arguing something.

Yeah that's confusing the HOW with the WHO. Science tells us how things work, like what the laws of physics are. It doesn't touch on WHY they work that way, or who wrote the laws of physics.

If anything, learning that neanderthals were more human like lends SUPPORT to a very literal, naive reading of "God created man" rather than "man was evolved from algae" - man was already man in neanderthal times.

It doesn't matter, though. There's nothing at all inconsistent about believing "God created man through evolution" and that's exactly what many paleo-archeologists believe, that evolution is a mechanism used by a universal force of some kind, just as the iphone 4 "evolved" from earlier phones, but not by itself, not without intelligent beings guiding driving the evolution of the technology.

In other words, the fact that technology evolves doesn't prove that engineers don't exist, or that engineers don't create technology and likewise the fact that animals evolve doesn't mean that they weren't created.

Last edited by raymor; 06-15-2012, 11:45 AM.

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#16

06-15-2012, 11:47 AM

This is a little off the subject, but you should read a book called Ember from the Sun by Mark Cantor. It is fiction, but interesting. The idea behind it is that scientists find DNA of a Neanderthal body and they use it to create a half human half neanderthal baby.

It is a pretty cool story.
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#17

06-15-2012, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by B.Barnato

If there is no God, then who wrote the Bible?

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#18

06-15-2012, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by B.Barnato

If there is no God, then who wrote the Bible?

I'm sorry, but who ever said God wrote the Bible?
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#19

06-15-2012, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by baddog

I'm sorry, but who ever said God wrote the Bible?

http://www.amazon.com/God-Wrote-the-...e+the+Bible%22
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Paul Markham

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#20

06-15-2012, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by potter

Uhg, I always despise this debate.

Evolution, and all the facts of organisms on the planet millions of years ago does not put a hole in the creationist debate.

Evolution does not prove or disprove that there is/was a "god".

And before anyone gets their panties in a bunch. I fully believe that there is no god, and do not believe in creationism. I simply believe in people getting their facts straight when arguing something.

God didn't create man.

Man created God.

The scientist have it all pretty well explained back to what caused the big bang. Yes they make mistakes like they did with Neanderthals and other species. As science finds more answers, the gaps are filled and the unexplained becomes clear.

The "God" figure maybe caused the big bang. The Bible story which is creation, was totally blown out of the water a long time ago. Yet people still will find this myth a wonderful excuse to make money, keep the ignorant ever ignorant and kill people.

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#21

06-15-2012, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

As science finds more answers, the gaps are filled and the unexplained becomes clear.

The "God" figure maybe caused the big bang. The Bible story which is creation, was totally blown out of the water a long time ago.

The book of Genesis, committed to paper 3,500 years ago, says "the stars were made first, then the earth, which was covered with water, then land, then the plants, next animals, and humans last". A modern science book says "the stars were made first, then the earth, which was covered with water, then land, then the plants, next animals, and humans last." Science, at the time of Genesis, had the earth first and stars last, but Genesis said no, the stars came first. Modern science has proven that Genesis was right all along.

Similarly for more modern history. Scientists discovered recently discovered ancient egyptian records off the egyptian army chasing the jews after plagues hit egypt - just as described in Exodus. From what I see, more and more scientific discoveries are confirming the ancient legends. They are, of course, ancient legends and just as the modern commercialized St. Nick doesn't quite match with our understanding of the historical Saint Nick, some misinterpretation over the millenia is to be expected.

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#22

06-15-2012, 02:50 PM

arrrghhh!

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#23

06-15-2012, 03:05 PM

A FIRE-MIST and a planet,
A crystal and a cell,
A jelly-fish and a saurian,
And caves where the cave-men dwell;
Then a sense of law and beauty
And a face turned from the clod --
Some call it Evolution,
And others call it God.

A haze on the far horizon,
The infinite, tender sky,
The ripe rich tint of the cornfileds,
And the wild geese sailing high --
And all over upland and lowland
The charm of the golden-rod --
Some of us call it Autumn
And others call it God.

Like tides on a crescent sea-beach,
When the moon is new and thin,
Into our hearts high yearnings
Come welling and surging in --
Come from the mystic ocean,
Whose rim no foot has trod, --
Some of us call it Longing,
And others call it God.

A picket frozen on duty,
A mother starved for her brood,
Socrates drinking the hemlock,
And Jesus on the rood;
And millions who, humble and nameless,
The straight, hard pathway plod, --
Some call it Consecration,
And others call it God.

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#24

06-15-2012, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by B.Barnato

http://www.amazon.com/God-Wrote-the-...e+the+Bible%22

Okay, I was talking to adults; not someone that reads (or listens) to books for little children.
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#25

06-15-2012, 03:28 PM

Nothing in science contradicts the idea of "creationism" and nothing in the idea of "creationism" contradicts anything in science.

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#26

06-15-2012, 03:36 PM

Religion: wasting ones life believing in some made up story created by someone else
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#27

06-15-2012, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by kane

This is a little off the subject, but you should read a book called Ember from the Sun by Mark Cantor. It is fiction, but interesting. The idea behind it is that scientists find DNA of a Neanderthal body and they use it to create a half human half neanderthal baby.

It is a pretty cool story.

You know what would be a cool story? If they did that only with collected DNA off of the Shroud of Turin, or say some archaeologists found the crown of thorns or something. And they unwittingly bring about the second coming of Christ and last judgement.

Originally posted by Paul Markham

The scientist have it all pretty well explained back to what caused the big bang. Yes they make mistakes like they did with Neanderthals and other species. As science finds more answers, the gaps are filled and the unexplained becomes clear.

Scientists are starting to reject the big bang theory. now they think that our universe exists inside a black hole:

(ISM) -- Our universe may exist inside a black hole. This may sound strange, but it could actually be the best explanation of how the universe began, and what we observe today. It's a theory that has been explored over the past few decades by a small group of physicists including myself.

Successful as it is, there are notable unsolved questions with the standard big bang theory, which suggests that the universe began as a seemingly impossible "singularity," an infinitely small point containing an infinitely high concentration of matter, expanding in size to what we observe today. The theory of inflation, a super-fast expansion of space proposed in recent decades, fills in many important details, such as why slight lumps in the concentration of matter in the early universe coalesced into large celestial bodies such as galaxies and clusters of galaxies.

http://www.insidescience.org/?q=cont...w-universe/566

Whatever. We will be extinct long before scientists come even remotely close to unravelling even the most obvious mysteries of the universe.

Last edited by Shotsie; 06-15-2012, 03:54 PM.
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#28

06-15-2012, 03:52 PM

Paul is a true Renuisance Man ...

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#29

06-15-2012, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by raymor

The book of Genesis, committed to paper 3,500 years ago, says "the stars were made first, then the earth, which was covered with water, then land, then the plants, next animals, and humans last". A modern science book says "the stars were made first, then the earth, which was covered with water, then land, then the plants, next animals, and humans last." Science, at the time of Genesis, had the earth first and stars last, but Genesis said no, the stars came first. Modern science has proven that Genesis was right all along.

The chronological account in Genesis states that the Earth was created before the Sun and the stars.

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/e...rcreation.html
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#30

06-15-2012, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

Enough with business and all the troubles we face. Let's talk about something else.

We? You retired.
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#31

06-15-2012, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Viewfinder

The chronological account in Genesis states that the Earth was created before the Sun and the stars.

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/e...rcreation.html

Quibble. Considering what they had to go on, they did pretty well, IMO. Bigger similar errors have been made a lot more recent than that.
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#32

06-15-2012, 04:52 PM

the bible is about as reliable as the tales of the brothers Grimm

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#33

06-15-2012, 05:00 PM

Last edited by Vapid - BANNED FOR LIFE; 06-15-2012, 05:00 PM. Reason: Profoundness
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#34

06-15-2012, 05:16 PM

The bible was written by schizofrenics. Give a schizofrenic paper and pen and they write long stories like that. Make a schizofrenic look at the sun and he'll say he's looking at god's face. Paranoid schizofrenics all love the bible because they understand every word and it gives them something to hold on to. That's why many of them don't cure - there is no cure in the bible because it's one big fairy tale.
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#35

06-15-2012, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by dsadsa

That's amazing...

That explains why some people are extremely dumb... they have a black hole where normal people have brain cells
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#36

06-15-2012, 05:25 PM

Whats more interesting to me is how quickly we advanced ourselves with modern technology in less than 150 years we have made more technological advancements than we did in our first 10,000 and we seem to accelerate by orders of magnitude now.

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#37

06-15-2012, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by mikesouth

Whats more interesting to me is how quickly we advanced ourselves with modern technology in less than 150 years we have made more technological advancements than we did in our first 10,000 and we seem to accelerate by orders of magnitude now.

steam machines, electricity, long distance communication... once that was invented it put everything in overdrive

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#38

06-15-2012, 05:37 PM

There is only one debate: The debate over whether or not there is a debate. Those of us on the side of "There is no debate" seem to be winning.

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#39

06-15-2012, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by EukerVoorn

I thought about this a lot too. Maybe there have been other civilizations before ours, and every time they ended up destroying themselves by a global nuke war, and maybe that's why the planet is still boiling inside. After each destroy a few insects or small fish or mammals survive and revolution starts all over again till the next full destruction and this process continues to repeat itself over and over again. A nightmare!

maybe after we're gone, 2000 years later there could be a war between the mole men and squirrel people.
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#40

06-15-2012, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by MaDalton

steam machines, electricity, long distance communication... once that was invented it put everything in overdrive

Indeed

In addition to population growth.

1 billion in 1804,
2 billion in 1927
3 billion in 1960
4 billion in 1974
5 billion in 1987
6 billion in 1999
7 billion in 2013

More people, more ideas.

Nearly 1 billion more every 13 years now, kinda worrying

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#41

06-15-2012, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by raymor

The book of Genesis, committed to paper 3,500 years ago, says "the stars were made first, then the earth, which was covered with water, then land, then the plants, next animals, and humans last". A modern science book says "the stars were made first, then the earth, which was covered with water, then land, then the plants, next animals, and humans last." Science, at the time of Genesis, had the earth first and stars last, but Genesis said no, the stars came first. Modern science has proven that Genesis was right all along.

Similarly for more modern history. Scientists discovered recently discovered ancient egyptian records off the egyptian army chasing the jews after plagues hit egypt - just as described in Exodus. From what I see, more and more scientific discoveries are confirming the ancient legends. They are, of course, ancient legends and just as the modern commercialized St. Nick doesn't quite match with our understanding of the historical Saint Nick, some misinterpretation over the millenia is to be expected.

The book of Genesis says God created it in 7 days, makes no mention of the 100,000s of creature who came before Homo Sapiens and is so full on holes it makes a sieve look solid. But they got it right on a couple of counts, so it all has to be the word of God.

The Plagues are all natural phenomenon and any happen all the time. with or without Moses. Got links to the evidence of them army chasing the Israelites out of Egypt? Been watching programs made before they found it. These programs had evidence Egyptians built the Pyramids.

Evolution is easy to prove, because it's all around us and happening today. Man is showing "God fans" how it's true.

Think about it before you answer.

Last edited by Paul Markham; 06-15-2012, 07:59 PM.

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#42

06-15-2012, 09:42 PM

So homa sapiens exist 200 000 years that means humans like you and me without the moneky like hair and stuff.
Then tell me why they show caveman like a hairy monkey who supposedly lived only 10 000 years ago.
in 200 000 years homo sapiens lived like hunter gatherers and were to stupid to make a bow and arrow and in 4000 years we have "evolved" into homo sapiens changing dna and creating half man/half animal creatures. yeah right
your theory is a conspiracy theory dude.

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Vapid - BANNED FOR LIFE

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#43

06-15-2012, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by Frank21

half man/half animal creatures

Fully idiot.

Last edited by Vapid - BANNED FOR LIFE; 06-15-2012, 09:51 PM.
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baddog

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#44

06-15-2012, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by MaDalton

steam machines, electricity, long distance communication... once that was invented it put everything in overdrive

+ wheel

Originally posted by Paul Markham

The book of Genesis says God created it in 7 days. . . .
Think about it before you answer.

Sorry, have to stop if someone is going to assume that 7 days = 168 hours. The problem is when stupid people start taking parables literally.
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Shagbunny

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#45

06-15-2012, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by baddog

+ wheel

Sorry, have to stop if someone is going to assume that 7 days = 168 hours. The problem is when stupid people start taking parables literally.

No, stupid people adjust parables to convince themselves, and others, of their own stupid beliefs.
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Paul Markham

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#46

06-16-2012, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by baddog

+ wheel

Wrong. go figure out why.

Sorry, have to stop if someone is going to assume that 7 days = 168 hours. The problem is when stupid people start taking parables literally.

True. The problem confounds itself when they all think it's the word of the big man in the sky.

Frank21, go pick up a book on the subject before you post again.

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theking

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#47

06-16-2012, 02:40 AM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

Wrong. go figure out why.

True. The problem confounds itself when they all think it's the word of the big man in the sky.

Frank21, go pick up a book on the subject before you post again.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and you are clueless about virtually every subject you speak about on this board. You are a walking...talking comedy of errors and yet you pontificate about anything and everything as if you are an authority...when you in fact...are just an uneducated...and for the most part... ignorant...silly old man.

Last edited by theking; 06-16-2012, 02:41 AM.

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Tijuana_Tom

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#48

06-16-2012, 02:45 AM

It's good that Paul posts and does it with such good humor.

You guys need the exercise.
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EukerVoorn

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#49

06-16-2012, 03:25 AM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

The book of Genesis says God created it in 7 days, makes no mention of the 100,000s of creature who came before Homo Sapiens and is so full on holes it makes a sieve look solid. But they got it right on a couple of counts, so it all has to be the word of God.

Apparently if you would go from what the bible claims, the planet is only 15.000 years old. Paul you must know that English professor who made a lot of TV programs about religions... in one of these shows he was travelling through the US and talking to some religious people and they were totally convinced that the planet is 15.000 years old and there was no way for him to have a normal debate about it... so basically these fanatics just deny everything modern science has come up with in the past decades. God created earth 15.000 years ago is what they keep thinking. But what happens when they get seriously ill? Do they go to their church to pray and ask God to cure them, or do they go to a hospital where people are being treated based on modern science?
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EukerVoorn

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#50

06-16-2012, 03:32 AM

Originally posted by Tijuana_Tom

It's good that Paul posts and does it with such good humor.

You guys need the exercise.

I like Paul as a person, he's allright, I just don't always agree with him about professional matters even though our backgrounds are a bit similar - old school producers from the pre-web years.

People who continue to bash him do have issues with themselves.
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