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I guess you're in a gang and live in Compton then, because otherwise most fights are two dudes from the same crowd battling for respect.I don't think I've actually ever seen a fight like that... Usually it's a bunch of people kicking the shit out of one or two others, or maybe someone pulling out a knife.
Personally I practice the ancient art of cellphone-kata - I disappear like a ninja, then call the police and shout "zomg come quick!!1". Hasn't ever failed me so far
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For those of you who think that the monks would not stand a chance, try smacking one of them.PornGuy skype me pornguy_epic
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Yo what's up BVF... I know this guy personally http://floridafitnessconcepts.com/bios/bell.html check out his stats. This is one of the most serious martial arts trainers in the states. He would probably know what the best course of training would be in the area you are planning on being in.
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a talented monk that lived to train his whole life from infancy would beat the bjj student that started as a teenager, assuming everything else was equal (which it never is)
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Coming in late on this one. I have been a either a martial arts student or instructor or both m whole life. I have fought semi pro for 9 years, everything from art based tournaments to the prelims of ufc. Arts include shaolin gungfu, bjj, vale tude, tkd, kuk sool, tai chi, kickboxing, etc. All that said you cant judge a fight by the art, only the artist. Each art has benefits and weakness. Bjj has weak stand up, shaolin has decent ground and awesome stand up. Shaolin trains you for multiple attackers, Bjj is fucked against 2 opponents. Now that of course is on face value of the art. If you are a fighter you can adapt. But i have beat other BJJ with shaolin or kickboxing, and beat shaolin with bbj and vale tudo. No art is complete. Good luck BVF, Fight the teacher on the first day. Oh and anyone that wants to train or whatever, i am in phoenix.Comment
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Being a practitioner myself, I have a lot of respect for BJJ, but I cringe every time a BJJ practioner goes on his/her soapbox about the "superiority" of BJJ like it casts a great engulfing shadow over every other art in the world and in any situation. That does more to tarnish the image of BJJ than to improve it, imho. It's a great art, but like every other art there's pros/cons, good/bad practitioners and supplemental techniques acquired from other arts to make it stronger.Comment
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you should watch national geographics hardest fighters
it was a really cool documentary where they had the experts attack pressure dumbies with sensors that defined how much force was being applied
The coolest one was the death touch
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How the fuck could we know ? All I know is that BJJ has been proven, while kong fu students except few exceptions all failed to adapt their game to full contact fighting.Originally posted by rayadp05Comment
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If it's a skilled bjj guy with a clue about how to deal with strikes, bjj is going to beat the shaolin system a very high percentage of the time. shaolin is not a structurally sensible method for real fighting. Great for show, but that's about it.
Take two guys of equal abilities and train one in shaolin and the other in bjj. shaolin guy has virtually no chance.
-TComment
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I don't train, however I know quite a few wrestlers from my university days and have been following MMA since the beginning of the UFC. I agree with you that before (ie. in 2005? when this thread first started...which I didn't realize until now, you were right) MMA fighters would beat a wrestler most of the time. Now however, with MMA evolving as fast as it has, I think the most important thing is executing a game plan because there are so many good BJJ guys out there now. My only complaint is that sometimes taking the fight to the ground gets boring when the fighter in the dominant position does not do much to advance his position (kind of what happened in the CroCop Gonzaga fight). Anyways, that's just my opinion on the matter after watching the sport for over a decade.Do you train, or did you just start watching after The Ultimate Fighter Tv Show?
Because if you did, train, you would have seen a wrestler aka grappler, who have the best top dominant positions in the game, out BJJ a BJJ Blackbelt. There are a few styles in MMA, BJJ is one of the universals, which 99% of MMA fighters train in.
Anyways, your post would not exist if you go back to my original post, the last part said... "MMA beat a grappler 9 times out of 10".
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that looked like a staged demo to me. neither one from what i saw were throwing blows or kicks to make contact and do damage.
that being said... blocking fast, kicking fast and punching fast is the easy part. just takes a lot of drills. committing to punching, blocking and kicking to do damage without getting knocked out in the process is the hard part. anyone can learn to throw their arms and legs around quickly and impress anyone that has no idea what they are looking at.
anyone that is impressed by that video has simply never trained karate or sparred.Comment
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and at the end of the day, you are comparing someone who has no problem getting into the ring and actually fighting and someone who relies on mysticism, legend and seclusion to impress people with their alleged "fighting skills"Comment
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If you don't know by now, and know for SURE, that bjj is the dominant art, the art you MUST know before you dare to get in that ring, then you're not paying attention or you're just rock stupid.Comment
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Rorion Gracie said the same thing, and whooped ass on anyone willing to fight him for years and years to prove it. If you train BJJ and you know how MMA started and what MMA training is like then you know BJJ is now the base that all fighters start with. If you don't train at least enough BJJ to resist getting subbed, you're going to be crushed regardless of what art you know. REGARDLESS.Comment
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Actually I am not full of shit. I am currently training at the chinese cultural center with shoalin master shirfu lu and over on 7th and dunlap at the Mu Chang kuk sool school. I have been back from mexico for the past 6 months where I was teaching Vale Tudo at UNAM (mexican college) and Master Jesus Herrera's Extreme Fighting school on the corner of Las Torres and Eje. Seis in mexico city, D.F. I don't get into alot of the conversations here, as you can see by my post count but I thought that since I had some experience in the area I would add my 2 cents. Go fuck yourselfComment
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"BJJ is now the base that ALL fighters start with" is a bold statement. I agree that grappling should at least be supplemental in any fighter's training, but it's certainly not the BASE for ALL fighters.
I agree that you should know at least enough grappling to resist getting submitted, which is why the exclusive grapplers are having a much harder time now, but that statement is true both ways: The grapplers should know enough striking arts to avoid getting pummeled and be able to take advantages of openings that may appear (or create their own).
I'm speaking generically of grappling, rather than BJJ, because I don't think BJJ holds the monopoly on ground work. Honestly, the hardest grapplers I've rolled with are traditional Judo guys, but that's probably a misleading statement. I've only rolled with three different BJJ black belts: one 1st degree and two 2nd degrees (one also had a 4th degree in Judo), but I've rolled with 2nd up to 6th degree black belts in Judo, so there's a little more experience there. Time for time, BJJ guys will probably get better on the ground faster, because of the concentration there at the expense of standup.Comment
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Sorry bro. Not true. Martial Systems are indigenous to every region. What most refer to as modern day martial arts did spread from China, but ultimately lead back to Bodhidharma in India. Bodhidharma was the Buddhist monk that traveled the Silk Road from India and made his way east to China.
Once settled in China he began teaching the monks meditation techniques along side physical exercises to increase their stamina and focus in mediation. These exercises were melded into the existing Chinese indigenous Martial Systems to become the precursors of Shaolin Kung Fu and present day WuShu.
For more info Donn Dreagerr is noted Martial Arts historian, and has several books published on the origins on Martial Systems in Asia
Oh and for the record IMO the Shoalin Monk in the woods, and the BJJ guy in the ring. Sport fighters fight great with mats and people watching, and lets not forget the 3 minute rounds.--
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skype:vmgsinclair
"Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human sex."Comment
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Until recently all Judo schools in the US concentrated on throws almost to the point of exclusion of everything else, US Judo had very very little ground game except to put you there. American Judo black belts were getting tooled by BJJ blue belts until very recently, let alone by BJJ black belts, and the fact that you don't know that makes me very suspicious of your credentials. The only ground game besides BJJ that was worth a shit was collegiate wrestling, and the problem with that was that once they got you down and got a good position, they were done. That's as far as wrestling took you, and the bjj guy would sub them from his back every time.
Now Judo guys are learning BJJ and calling it Judo. Wrestlers are learning bjj and calling it submission wrestling. Strikers got owned by bjj guys every time until they started learning bjj and takedown resistance.
Where do you train?Comment
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oh ok martial arts historian.. then you know that time limits and rules were IMPOSED on MMA. Rorion didn't want them, the first three UFC's didn't have them, and in many people's opinion the time limits severely restrict the effectiveness of bjj because you can't take a big guy down and wear him out gradually - one of the key themes of bjj in a tough fight against a good opponent.Comment
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BJJ actually has roots in Kosen Judo, which came from Fusen Ryu Ju Jitsu.
Early prominent Kodokan judoka, influenced by Fusen-Ryu, include Yoshiaki Yamashita, Hirata Kanae, Tsunejiro Tomita, Sakujiro Yokoyama and Mitsuyo Maeda. Maeda went on to teach judo to the Gracie family, who would later develop the martial art into Brazilian jiu-jitsu (jiu-jitsu is an older English spelling of jujutsu, but both are 'romanised' versions of Japanese kanji script and rules for romanization have changed over time). Unlike modern sport Judo which emphasizes throws over ground work, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu preserved, and today is famous for, its emphasis on ground work, and probably maintains more of a martial aspect via Vale Tudo and, today, MMA or mixed martial arts.
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I'd like to post this question.
If the Shaolin were such great warriors/fighters...
Why was it, their house kept getting burned down?
Rhetorical question.
As for MMA only works in the ring, you need to get your brain checked for damage.
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Yes, asian Judo had a far superior ground game to american Judo. Probably still does, I dunno.
As you well know, Anthony, the reason you have fanboys like me in BJJ and to a lesser degree (?) yourself, is that Rorion busted his ASS proving it. Beyond all doubt. He came to the US and fought ANYONE and EVERYONE from ANY style willing to fight him, and he never lost. Not once. Kempo, TKD, KF, wrestling - he tooled them all, the same way and always with great ease. First three MMA competitions, little Royce Gracie took out MUCH bigger guys with ease even though they outweighed him, sometimes almost twice his weight. He didn't get beat until the other guys started training BJJ, and if they hadn't he would still be undefeated most likely.
Speaking like an expert on the subject, as so many in this thread do, when you have NO knowledge of the subject is disrespectful of what Rorion accomplished besides being flat wrong.Comment
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You are the best example of bjj effectiveness I can think of, off the top of my head. As big and strong as you are, I worked you with great ease when you first got here and first started training. Gradually your size started to count as you got better, and now you would probably work me just as easily as I did you in the beginning. If that's not proof of BJJ effectiveness, I dunno what is.Comment
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The modern Shoalin temple is a hollowed out shell of what it used to be and all Wushu has been watered down to sport and exhibition. It's impact on the evolution of MA, IMO, should not be ignored because of the trappings placed on it over the years.
As for MMA being effective only in the ring, never meant to imply that. My issues with MMA is that it is a combative style, Martial System in the tradition of all "jutsu" derived styles. It can not be compared to other Martial Arts from the "do" styles. There is a huge difference between what is practiced for overall self-improvement and discipline and what is studied for shear combat effectiveness.
The question of anyone studying a "do" style of Martial System vs. a "jutsu" style is ridiculous. The combat influence of battle tested styles such as BJJ and countless others is always going to be the winner. No question that MMA and BJJ are the king of the pack these day and prolly will be for a long time to come. But MMA is more of a Martial System than a Martial Art. There is a difference and if it was recognized these arguments would be pointless.--
skype:vmgsinclair
"Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human sex."Comment
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I will go with Shaolin guy
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Cmon man... Get real.
Everyone knows the no-touch fighting style wins every time.
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There is no doubt there is a greater concentration on the ground in BJJ than in Judo; I mentioned that in my earlier reply, but Judo has never been exclusively throws. I've been hearing about Judo ne waza (ground techniques) way before the UFC ever surfaced and from instructors that learned at the Kodokan back in the 60s; I hardly think there was much evolution of Judo resulting from the Gracies back then. I'm not a Judo guy, but from what I've seen, I'll estimate the ratio of throws:ground at 50/50 while BJJ might be 90:10 or more.
As I mentioned before: time for time, I agree that the BJJ guys will be better on the ground than Judo guys, but they'll have a much harder time getting someone there from a clinch. However, since the BJJ guys added shoots, they're better at closing the gap, it seems.
I can't really comment on "American Judo", since I don't really know the difference. Most of the guys I've played with are 1st or 2nd generation descendents from the Kodokan in Japan.
I totally agree with your take on wrestlers. In my opinion, they have far better shoots and take-downs and great movement on the ground, but they don't know what to do from there. It always seemed, they would burn themselves out after 3 minutes, and if you hadn't already tapped them, it was easy pickings after that.
Personally, I don't care about anyone's opinion of my credentials.
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