Death penalty for minors? Yes or no?

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Thank you.

I'm sorry but I disagree, it does prove my point.

And again, I in no way can be talking about ALL cases or even every extreme case in general. The death penalty has to apply to those certain cases, the rare ones where it is absolutely merited, period.

Absolutely I agree with you that where there is a shadow of a doubt the person should not receive death.

Read first, and lose this great sig placement? ;)

Now this is something I agree on too.

How do we solve that? Well, for one give out reasonable jail time, and stick to it.

In other words, don't send a guy to jail for 15 years because he had a pound of marijuana in his closet, and then keep him for 12, while a drunk driver who kills someone is given 12 years, and only serves 9.

I don't know if you have kids, but it follows along the same lines. If a parent tells a kid he will be grounded for two weeks if he doesn't do his chores, then after 1 week lets him out of his punishment, the kid has only learned the parent will not follow through.

So, punish fairly, consistently, and follow through.

People on this board and in general always advocate the brutalization of prisoners, especially rapists. Why? Those people have to be released at some point, and if we continue to allow things like that to happen in prison, then we are only creating angrier animals.

I believe in some type of reform. If you want to let non-violent criminals out earlier, then there needs to be some kind of program they can go through like victim awareness counseling, etc.. Dangle an apple in front of them like dropping time off of their sentence for completing high school, more time for completing college.

Let's work on programs that try to get to kids in trouble, before they become adults in trouble.

There are of course that group of people who will never fit into society, they will always be trouble, then we go with a real three strikes clause. Not the bullshit one California came up with a few years back where if your third strike was something inconsequential, you were still tossed into prison for life.

Actually I already read it. I'm of two minds... on the one hand I've got a whole lot of hippie in me, on the other hand the world is overpopulated and there are a lot of people who are just plain evil and need to be destroyed like rabid rats...

The problem is there is a criteria for death penalty cases to be made...and it is no based on "merit." Nor is it based on how good the evidence is.

It is based on the type of crime that was committed, they have to be "capital crimes," here in the U.S. Here's a list of Federal Laws providing for the death penalty:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...cid=29&did=192

So, if you are charged with one of those crimes and they opt to go after the death penalty, then you have opened that person charged to be judged by your fellow human being.

Now take a look around you. Whether you like it or not GFY is a "jury of your peers." Now do you want your fate to be in their hands?

So, even when you feel like a case merits it, the question to ask is..."who are you to decide that?"

im usually for the death penalty but not in this case. i say give them a lot of jail time though, and life if they dont snitch out their other 8 friends. there was 10 people involved in the attack and they only have 2.

Valid points,

but nowhere did I say that the existing set of laws are the right ones. I point out how I think it should be, you come back with how it is. I realize how it is actually, but I'd just like to see it adjusted to better weed out those who are absolutely guilty of the kind of crime that should warrant putting them to death, that's all.

Once a murdering rapist/child-killing/wife-mutilating scumbag has been found guilty by evidence (not by opinion or jury speculation only) I certainly wouldn't shed a tear once the world is rid of them. Seriously, would you?


You're right though, in many many cases there are holes and things that leave room for some doubt, etc. In those cases a lesser sentence is fine.

My interest is preventing them from ever having the opportunity to do it again to some other unsuspecting person, family etc.

The kind of information that we could glean from these individuals could be instrumental in discovering or confirming theories of extreme juvenile delinquency. Understanding why and how an individual, or a group can resort to unspeakable acts that are marked by an overwhelming lack of empathy for their fellow citizens is always an important aspect of psychological, sociological, and neurological research.

What is important in this situation (at least in my opinion) is whether or not these minors are adults in the eyes of medical professionals insofar as the crystallization of their personality rather than whether or not they understand sex, or understand the malice they've displayed. If their personalities are still developing, if they are still malleable, and they can be rehabilitated into functioning, productive members of society, then the death penalty should not be an option, nor should a lifetime prison sentence.

If they are beyond the point of no return, then the issue of capital punishment becomes tricky. The death penalty has three basic, practical uses: 1) deter future criminals, 2) permanently "remove" violent offenders, and perhaps the most powerful, 3) send a reassuring message to the law abiding and concerned citizens that justice is being served. The first has been shown to be ineffectual, the second is just as easily accomplished with lifetime prison sentences, and it is the third that seems to exert the most influence. Life is frustrating, we're always looking for some emotional catharsis, and knowing that somewhere some vicious, inhuman felon is KFC Extra Crispy can bring a smile to our faces.

It should all come down to where the most utility is.

thats fucking horrible, but still i dont think any government will agree to legally kill kids

In lieu of the death penalty I'd be all for medical dissection for research purposes as an alternative punishment. :D

It is surprising how much is already known by professionals and those involved in the criminal justice system about the behavior of both juvenile and adult anti-social/delinquent behaviour. Admittedly, there are very rare incidents (and the example in this thread, tho extreme, is not remotely near that category), which will probably never be explainable.

It is always a pleasure to see the cream of professionalism in action in any field, but to be a fly on the wall and observe the detached analysis of professionals and experienced LE at work in understanding the motivations, actions and effects of criminal conduct, as well as the effects on victims - is just awesome. This can be an ongoing process for literally decades on a specific individuals, both perps and victims - and there is a wealth of knowledge/understanding accquired during that time.

It would appear much of criminal activity can be simplified down to greed, jealously, revenge/revolt and a need to control within relationships etc, but it is obviously much deeper and delinquent action can be the result of a preamble which could have started earlier in life.

Not sure I'd call it a pleasure, but it sure was very revealing and... well, just mindblowing to witness the human mind acting as it's "guardian" of the body. The individual concerned had no idea what was happening - was "out of this planet", but under a controlled situation. Never thought it was ever possible to honestly reveal an individual to that level. If anything, that experience was a example that people react to whatever environment/situation they are confronted with, or feel, for whatever other reason, they need to react. Underneath, stripping all facades and veneers, we all all kids with fairly crude inbuilt tendencies - and it's hard not to feel a degree of sympathy for even perps as well as their victims.

An aside - tho still related to criminal analysis. Like many LE orgs, the FBI have made use of profilers - the criteria used as the core of this data is coming from interviews of perps over periods of time. Unfortunately, what a perp wants to be known is what ends up in the knowledge base - and that information may be not exactly true The FBI as a whole are very under-performing in relation to other LE agencies - but, no doubts, there are numbers of individuals in that organization who are excellent in their field of expertise.

On the topic of the offenses in this thread title, like most - it's a mess. It is the type of offense which attracts an emotional response and media attention. There is a history with the perps building up to the offense and most likely going to have long-lasting effects with the victims for perhaps the rest of their lives. The sad part is that it involved mainly children - tho kids are involved in eg armed robberies daily - it's not a surprise. There are many distrurbed kids walking around. Why would that be?? There is a range of fairly simple and obvious answers.

I agree.

Since 1973, 124 prisoners (11.73%) have been released in the USA after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death. There were six such cases in 2004, two in 2005, one in 2006 and one so far in 2007.

How can anyone be pro death penalty?

Hmmmm. OK to talk about killing minors on GFY, but not ok for that one asshat to talk about wanting content of minors non-nude.

Either way, I'm against the death penalty for anyone WITHOUT a DNA match or video tape to place them at the scene of the crime and to prove with 100% accuracy that they are guilty. Then and only then, should the family members be allowed to through the switch or inject the criminal. If they family can't do it, then it shouldn't be done.

Have mercy on them, no ...

Excellent read, GreyWolf. There are only a few points I'd like to respond to.

"It would appear much of criminal activity can be simplified down to greed, jealously, revenge/revolt and a need to control within relationships etc, but it is obviously much deeper and delinquent action can be the result of a preamble which could have started earlier in life."

My background, insofar as psychology, is cognitive and evolutionary. I will admit that I'm a bit rusty in regards to the behavorial (outside the basics you'd learn in psych 101) and developmental concentrations. On past whims, I've done reading and research into the sociology behind serial killing, terrorism, and other assorted "fun" topics such as the aforementioned. Given my scope of knowledge, I'd be interested to know how society, as a whole, would have attributed to the delinquency of these minors... from the community, down to the family unit, down to the individual children. I've never really bought into the idea that "a broken society creates broken citizens", but we can certainly find a trickle-down effect that starts with larger institutions and snowballs into the psyche of the individual, thus facilitating some mental discord, destructive or otherwise.

"On the topic of the offenses in this thread title, like most - it's a mess. It is the type of offense which attracts an emotional response and media attention. There is a history with the perps building up to the offense and most likely going to have long-lasting effects with the victims for perhaps the rest of their lives. The sad part is that it involved mainly children - tho kids are involved in eg armed robberies daily - it's not a surprise. There are many distrurbed kids walking around. Why would that be?? There is a range of fairly simple and obvious answers."

There are certainly a lot of disturbed individuals walking around, but I feel the real question is, "are there more in this generation than there were in previous generations?" Barring any definitive meta-analyses regarding crime rates that point to an increase in violent crime, I would speculate that our culture is becoming one that is not sufficiently teaching our children effective coping mechanisms for calamity and personal suffering.

We are also becoming a culture that thrives on sensationalism, and so I'm sure we see a lot more of it on television and in the papers than previous generations did. Tragedy makes for more viewers, and more viewers watching more tragedy makes for many negatively skewed perceptions. Check out George Gerbner and his Cultivation Theory.

Can't say I support the death penalty - it has been a crass failure globally and is not a deterent. There are few countries left where the death penalty exists and these are mainly "regimes", backward-looking and reflect an "uncivilization" within their societies.

Even more crass and sick are societies who did (some no longer) keep child offenders in custody until they were of legal age, - then executed them for offenses they committed as children. The same applies to warped legal systems where they can elect to have a trial of a child as an adult. The legal age of a child is defined in law - it's not a matter of opinion.

All countries, apart from the US, have now ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child - and execution of children is not on the table for discussion.

That said, there is another side of the picture where a number of individuals just could never be safely released into any society. Call them the media term, "pure evil" or whatever, but they are a menace to everyone around them and would cause serious harm. Can only speak from a small segment of personal experience, but have no doubts two of these people would take carving knives and slice up a law enforcement person who put them in custody - and anyone else who got in the way. They are not "mild" in their behavior, and often have "power" outside jail and will go to great lengths to gain information with a view to revenge. What ya do with these idiots? They have nothing to loose and, tho in prison, are still a potential menace.

Hehe.. and you're asking me? I have no training in this area and it would be another "GFY type" response... but will try.

The only way to say is from having seen a few backgrounds of both perps and victims and why they inflicted damage on these victims and the effects that damage had on the victims.

It is very hard to ignore the word "abuse" in the overall picture. This can be what may appear to be a very minor verbal abuse or up to serious physical or possibly sexual abuse. The other phrase which may be relevent is "vicious cycle" where when one person has experienced a form of abuse on them, they have a tendency to (either conciously or not), inflict that abuse on others.

It's fairly common in broken family units to have problems and, tho can't say for sure, possibly the children in that unit can be affected by the conduct of the parents. It is also possible that one or more parent/s are having a distrupted impact on their children (and part of the reason for a breakdown). Whether the parents recognize the impact on their kids is another matter, but the damage can be done.

Hopefully most children get thru their childhood without having to experience the people they trusted fall apart and manage to comprehend the situation.

There is another scenario which is hard to avoid and far more common than we may suspect where one or more parents deliberately abuse their children to the extent that, as adults, they carry that baggage with them the rest of their lives. Have to say I was totally naive to this prospect, but stunned at the level of reality where parents abuse their children.

There are three particular cases (tho plenty more less serious, if violent child assaults can be called less serious), where children murdered their parents, were convicted and, at that time, sentenced to death and held on death row till of legal age. Over the years on death row, each of these kids (aged between 9 and .. think 13) chatted with a person who made a point of being a friend - they had no parents or other friends. This person was a govt officer with some experience in child offenses, but was not acting in an official capacity. Two of the children eventually "opened up" - trusting any adult was a big thing to them. The third never really opened up - the kid was too damaged to the level he could hardly talk. What emerge was a childhood of abuse by either one or both parents. This varied, but included severe physical abuse up to multiple sexual abuse on a daily basis. All of these kids wanted whatever abuse to stop and they considered the only way was to kill the offending parent.

It is very sad to think that any society could possibly let children like this be executed and not take full consideration of their backgrounds. The person who befriended them is a friend of mine and I have often asked if it's possible to write a book about the surrounding "actual" events of the lives of these kids, but - for various reasons and out of respect, this may not happen. Two of these kids (then adults), asked that their friend who had been there for them during their years on death row be with them when they were executed - this wish was granted. Very gutsy being able to watch "the boys" be killed.

That is a more severe situation, but it is very, very common in family units to have children damaged thru the actions of parents.

Never knew this until it was pointed out and was more than obvious - damaged children then move on to causing more damage to others. Each victim can then become an offender. Apparently there is an instance where eg.. a female child who was sexually abused can then be a sexual abuser of her own children. Hopefully that is not a "norm" (tho hell, child abuse is not a norm either), but it's more probable.

Considering parents, including abusive parents, are part of our society - maybe on that level society as a whole is responsible for the eventual outcome.

Hard to say if there are more disturbed people than in previous generations. Some era's were very rough and violent.

Possibly a problem in modern day culture is what appears to be a high level of attention given to children, may not exactly be that where it is commonplace to have both parents working and presumably less attention devoted to their offspring - other than throwing money their way to buy novelties. Within that framework, it probably does force children to "keep up to par" at handling stress and personal suffering.

There are also different sets of pressures on parents in any industrialized nation. This is totally different to eg.. the culture of some communities in South America. Apart from a much more laid back lifestyle, most of these people have a high regard for children (more than western nations *actually* do) and spend more time with them.

Ah.. the vices of sensationalism and voyeurism There was a day when "incidents" were investigated by LE and they never said a word about their case. Now we have mainstream media greedy for any titbit of what they think is relevent evidence and ready to hold trial by TV with Ms Nancy Grace et al sitting on the bench. Kinda sad and probably does not serve the justice system well. Several nations seal evidence and it is prohibited from publication until the time of a trial - may be something in that.

Equally, with either sound or visual of violent confrontations ("we need more viewers"), there is a numbing effect and probably with more impact on impressionable minds (thinking young minds). Who knows what the effect of that may be? It is often what may appear to be a very innocuous portrayal that becomes a trigger that will change the course of lives - and lose some.

Media is an assembly of corporations. Corporations are predatory in nature and have only one aim - to satisfy shareholders. There is probably a level where they go beyond serving the public interest. You may have noticed the decreased lack of sensationalism in broadcasting corps which don't have to rely on shareholders as such. There also appears to be more substance to their reporting and not centrally built around the sensational elements.

Suppose what all this is about is - give some consideration and tolerance to everyone irrespective of views, race or religion - and including every child. What you do now will either reap rewards or come back to haunt ya in future

Done.

Life without parole would be my first choice and death would be my second choice. Under no circumstances should any of the perps be released into the general population.......ever.

They may not have killed their victims, but they might as well have. That woman and her son will be emotional basket cases for the rest of their lives.

Damn, approx. 1 out of ever 10 death row inmates released thanks to DNA. That system is a failure and costs more than life in prison. Life in prison is more financially and morally sound.

Hang the little bastards before they kill somebody again