Sicko, I saw it...My opinion on it!

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  • JFK
    FUBAR the ORIGINATOR
    • Jan 2002
    • 67369

    #51
    Fitty Sickos

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    • Brad
      Confirmed User
      • Jan 2007
      • 2510

      #52
      Originally posted by baddog
      How about the fact that I was there?

      How about the fact that Haight-Ashbury lasted about three years before it became worse than it had ever been?

      How about the fact that the tourists never got out of their fucking cars when they drove thru the Haight? The only money they spent there was the occasional quarter when they would buy a Haight-Ashbury Free Press or Berkley Barb from one of the hippies hawking them on every street corner.

      Good enough?
      Or, how about the fact that only the tourists could afford to go to shows at the Fillmore or the Avalon or afford the expensive goods sold within the district. It quickly turned into a tourist haven where the tourists supported the culture to a large extent. The fact that hippie culture died doesn't have any bearing on my argument. The point remains that a large number of people can effect change. If you were there then you experienced this first hand.
      Last edited by Brad; 07-04-2007, 10:48 AM.
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      • Axeman
        Confirmed User
        • Feb 2004
        • 5201

        #53
        Originally posted by baddog
        How about the fact that I was there?

        How about the fact that Haight-Ashbury lasted about three years before it became worse than it had ever been?

        How about the fact that the tourists never got out of their fucking cars when they drove thru the Haight? The only money they spent there was the occasional quarter when they would buy a Haight-Ashbury Free Press or Berkley Barb from one of the hippies hawking them on every street corner.

        Good enough?
        Much better than your previous posts yes. At least you offer an explanation and your reasoning for disagreeing with Brad. Whether its right thats for you two to argue about. But if you're going to disagree with a view, its best to offer your counter reasoning to make yourself sound somewhat educated and not just an ignorant fool.
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        • baddog
          So Fucking Banned
          • Apr 2001
          • 107089

          #54
          Originally posted by Adult Lounge - Brad
          Or, how about the fact that only the tourists could afford to go to shows at the Fillmore or the Avalon or afford the expensive goods sold within the district.
          The Fillmore and Avalon were not on Haight or Ashbury, so not really relevant. They were not even close. Try the other side of the park. Several miles away. I don't know what you think was being sold on Haight-Ashbury, but the most expensive item was probably a hit of $5 acid.

          If you think Haight-Ashbury made San Francisco, you have it backwards. The liberal attitude of San Francisco allowed Haight-Ashbury to exist.

          Originally posted by Axeman
          Much better than your previous posts yes. At least you offer an explanation and your reasoning for disagreeing with Brad. Whether its right thats for you two to argue about. But if you're going to disagree with a view, its best to offer your counter reasoning to make yourself sound somewhat educated and not just an ignorant fool.
          When kids start suggesting that they have some idea of what was happening in MY youth, then I prefer to let them explain how it is they know more about it than I do.

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          • Quagmire
            Confirmed User
            • Jul 2005
            • 6490

            #55
            I can take a big shit on your kitchen table and call it a cupcake, are you going to eat it?

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            • Brad
              Confirmed User
              • Jan 2007
              • 2510

              #56
              Originally posted by baddog
              The Fillmore and Avalon were not on Haight or Ashbury, so not really relevant. They were not even close. Try the other side of the park. Several miles away. I don't know what you think was being sold on Haight-Ashbury, but the most expensive item was probably a hit of $5 acid.

              If you think Haight-Ashbury made San Francisco, you have it backwards. The liberal attitude of San Francisco allowed Haight-Ashbury to exist.
              I had to laugh at this. I think you are misunderstanding me. First, I have no interest in arguing about Haight-Ashbury. If you think I think that SF is defined or put on the map because of the hippies then you are grossly underestimating my understanding of things. I could care less about the area, my point is that the are was affected by numbers, that's it. Obviously, having lived there you know more about it than I do, I'm not debating that...it served merely as an example.

              By the way though, one of the main reasons that those two venues thrived was because of the emergence of psychedelic rock music. They are tied to the Haight-Ashbury area even though they do not exist in it. Much like the Buffalo Bills are still a part of Buffalo even though the stadium is not downtown.

              Anyways, lets get back to the main debate...and forget about SF, hippies, acid, and psychedelic rock for a minute.
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              • Brad
                Confirmed User
                • Jan 2007
                • 2510

                #57
                Originally posted by baddog
                When kids start suggesting that they have some idea of what was happening in MY youth, then I prefer to let them explain how it is they know more about it than I do.
                Hindsight is 20-20 my friend. We know more about Rome than the Romans did.

                But...once again this is not a discussion about SF or hippies or anything of the sort. I was merely pointing out that there is power in numbers, which you laughed at me for.

                I'd like to hear an example to the contrary...where numbers had no impact on the outcome of events.
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                • J. Falcon
                  www.AdultCopywriters.com
                  • May 2006
                  • 31587

                  #58
                  Originally posted by Quagmire
                  I can take a big shit on your kitchen table and call it a cupcake, are you going to eat it?
                  Oh thats a great point, your intelligence and discussion skills are astounding.
                  Adult Copywriters



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                  • Tom_PM
                    Porn Meister
                    • Feb 2005
                    • 16443

                    #59
                    I hope Massachusetts plans to unveil some amazing health insurance plan for people who work but who's jobs dont provide it, and who can't afford "just" a few hundred dollars a month.
                    I mean think about it. For those under like $20k per year, they can get medicaid or some other government "insurance".. so this new law there (or proposal) is going to hit the "working poor" right in the wallets. So I truly hope they plan to unveil some amazing new affordable health insurance mandates too!
                    43-922-863 Shut up and play your guitar.

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                    • Quagmire
                      Confirmed User
                      • Jul 2005
                      • 6490

                      #60
                      Originally posted by J. Falcon
                      Oh thats a great point, your intelligence and discussion skills are astounding.
                      Why, because I'm not going to waste my time arguing about whether Sicko is a documentary or not?

                      You claim to be a 'professional adult copywriter' so you must know the difference between an editorialized piece and documented fact, right?

                      Comment

                      • J. Falcon
                        www.AdultCopywriters.com
                        • May 2006
                        • 31587

                        #61
                        Originally posted by Quagmire
                        Why, because I'm not going to waste my time arguing about whether Sicko is a documentary or not?

                        You claim to be a 'professional adult copywriter' so you must know the difference between an editorialized piece and documented fact, right?
                        What documentaries arent editorialized?
                        Adult Copywriters



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                        • baddog
                          So Fucking Banned
                          • Apr 2001
                          • 107089

                          #62
                          Originally posted by Adult Lounge - Brad
                          Hindsight is 20-20 my friend. We know more about Rome than the Romans did.

                          But...once again this is not a discussion about SF or hippies or anything of the sort. I was merely pointing out that there is power in numbers, which you laughed at me for.
                          Just how many hippies do you think there were in SF anyway?



                          I'd like to hear an example to the contrary...where numbers had no impact on the outcome of events.
                          I believe you already mentioned one . . . China.

                          How about North Korea for another?


                          How about any communist country?

                          Comment

                          • Tom_PM
                            Porn Meister
                            • Feb 2005
                            • 16443

                            #63
                            Refers to film or video that explores a subject in a way the public expects to be factual and accurate. Documentaries may be balanced by including various viewpoints, or they may be subjective, offering the viewpoint and impressions of one producer.
                            43-922-863 Shut up and play your guitar.

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                            • Quagmire
                              Confirmed User
                              • Jul 2005
                              • 6490

                              #64
                              Originally posted by PR_Tom
                              Refers to film or video that explores a subject in a way the public expects to be factual and accurate. Documentaries may be balanced by including various viewpoints, or they may be subjective, offering the viewpoint and impressions of one producer.
                              documentary

                              adjective
                              1. relating to or consisting of or derived from documents
                              2. emphasizing or expressing things as perceived without distortion of personal feelings, insertion of fictional matter, or interpretation; "objective art" [syn: objective]

                              noun
                              1. a film or TV program presenting the facts about a person or event

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                              • Brad
                                Confirmed User
                                • Jan 2007
                                • 2510

                                #65
                                Originally posted by baddog
                                Just how many hippies do you think there were in SF anyway?




                                I believe you already mentioned one . . . China.

                                How about North Korea for another?


                                How about any communist country?
                                I doubt there would be any good estimate of the number of people there, but there were enough people to influence and in fact define the culture of the area.

                                Sure China is an example, and many communist or fascist regimes have used the power of numbers to help their cause along. It happened in Germany as well. So then we agree now that there is power in numbers?

                                This does not apply to only communist countries, population numbers can effect change in a democracy as well. Take a look at the situation in Quebec (regarding separation) for one example of this. Or strikes across North America (such as the Winnipeg General Strike) for many others.
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                                • Tom_PM
                                  Porn Meister
                                  • Feb 2005
                                  • 16443

                                  #66
                                  Communism, hippies, definitions.. All inspired by a health care film!!

                                  Done and done!
                                  43-922-863 Shut up and play your guitar.

                                  Comment

                                  • Brad
                                    Confirmed User
                                    • Jan 2007
                                    • 2510

                                    #67
                                    Originally posted by PR_Tom
                                    Communism, hippies, definitions.. All inspired by a health care film!!

                                    Done and done!
                                    lol. we do love our tangents don't we.
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                                    • CDSmith
                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                      • May 2001
                                      • 51460

                                      #68
                                      Originally posted by mikesouth
                                      When I spoke with my Canadian friends, one of whom works in IT in Canadian hospitals I got a story that sounded very similar. He said one of the ongoing problems in Canada was people going to emergency rooms for problems that aren't emergencies. They do it there because it's convenient. We have the same problem here but for a different reason. Despite what Michael Moore would have you believe you cannot be turned away from a public hospital here in America, only a private one. Lot's o people know this and take advantage of it knowing they will never have to pay, so when little Leroy gets the croup, mom takes him to the emergency room of the nearest public hospital where he gets treated for free for a non emergency.
                                      One proposal I came up with years ago was for a small user fee for non-emergency visits to the ER. Still gives people the service, but for say a $10 fee if their situation is deemed non-emergency. If they don't want to pay the fee they can go to their regular doctor or a walk-in clinic. That's what they're there for.

                                      It would serve to curtail ER abuse, and would also bring extra revenue into the system.

                                      Better that than going to a 2-tier system like some idiots are spouting in favor of.
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                                      • baddog
                                        So Fucking Banned
                                        • Apr 2001
                                        • 107089

                                        #69
                                        Originally posted by Adult Lounge - Brad
                                        I doubt there would be any good estimate of the number of people there, but there were enough people to influence and in fact define the culture of the area.
                                        at least enough to make you think so anyway

                                        Sure China is an example, and many communist or fascist regimes have used the power of numbers to help their cause along. It happened in Germany as well. So then we agree now that there is power in numbers?
                                        The power is in the guns, not the number of people

                                        Or strikes across North America (such as the Winnipeg General Strike) for many others.
                                        Guess I missed that . . . across North America or across Winnipeg?

                                        Comment

                                        • Brad
                                          Confirmed User
                                          • Jan 2007
                                          • 2510

                                          #70
                                          Originally posted by baddog
                                          at least enough to make you think so anyway



                                          The power is in the guns, not the number of people



                                          Guess I missed that . . . across North America or across Winnipeg?
                                          Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but seeing as how that area of SF is still known as one of the birthplaces of hippie culture 30 or 40 years later I think there were enough people to have a lasting effect.

                                          Power is and will always be in the numbers. Sure guns help, but you can't build an economy on guns but you sure as hell can destroy one with them. Call me in 10 years when China takes over and we'll discuss it then.

                                          As far as the strikes are concerned, I am talking about all across North America. The Winnipeg General Strike was a huge strike that I used as an example because it was the first one that came to mind. With roughly 35,000 people involved, it involved the overwhelming majority of the working population in the city. Pretty impressive what a large group of people can accomplish.
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                                          • Funbrunette
                                            Confirmed User
                                            • May 2002
                                            • 4834

                                            #71
                                            Originally posted by baddog
                                            And you are speaking on behalf of the Funbrunette's out there?

                                            I'm sorry I'm quite unique.
                                            Stephanie (Funbrunette)
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                                            • nation-x
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • Mar 2004
                                              • 5370

                                              #72
                                              All news stories are tainted by the editors belief system and logic patterns... That fact in play... Moore is presenting a documentary based on his view of things... a simple truth is that people cloud the point by pointing out every little detail in things... The basic fact about a skunk is that it will spray you if you fuck with it. The fact that it is black and white and rather innocent looking is of no consequence.

                                              I have noticed that people tend to get caught up in the details when it comes to everything... it's annoying to me... Most shit is very simple... why do people waste fucking time and effort to cloud the basics of a thing. I have noticed this about all kinds of different tasks that people undertake are doomed to the same fate because they overcomplicate it. It's like a virus.

                                              Here are some basic facts about life in the US.

                                              Alot of poor people are fucking lazy and don't make decisions for themselves... therefore they are stuck in their miserable fucking lives for a single reason... their own lack of character. Simple fucking fact.

                                              Alot of people want handouts... fom the crackhead to the president.

                                              We live in a culture of negativity. The majority of people are afraid to meet people from different cultures, backgrounds, interests (hobbies), industries... etc. When they do meet new people they are secretly suspicious of them and unwilling to be genuine. In my opinion... if you have a generally negative view of other people then you probably have a generally negative view of yourself and your decisions will reflect that negative outlook.

                                              Television and religion have a choke hold on our society. From a young age the majority of americans are conditioned by television to mold a certain belief system and "fit in". Religion is the icing on the cake... I read a book once that was about sales techniques in a group environment. The first chapter of the book was about gaining the prospects trust through behavioral modeling. The "we are alike" con. Most people are followers... The media is the light and the way. This is the biggest threat to our society in my opinion... mixing religion and politics is poison.

                                              Comment

                                              • Porn Farmer
                                                Confirmed User
                                                • Feb 2007
                                                • 928

                                                #73
                                                Originally posted by Quagmire
                                                No it isn't. He's pitching his own biased opinion which excludes it from the documentary label. You can't editorialize a subject and call it a documentary.
                                                Originally posted by polle54
                                                No it works with an issue that exist but there are used fictive situations and the issue is not looked at objectively.

                                                Hence it is not a documentary - or at least not a good one.

                                                but it's a good movie that enlighten some real interesting things.
                                                Those who think a documentary should be 'objective' - which is an impossiblity - do not understand the nature of documentary filmmaking.

                                                Documentary texts are supposedly those which aim to document reality, attempting veracity in their depiction of people, places and events. However, the process of mediation means that this is something of a oxymoron, it being impossible to re-present reality without constructing a narrative that may be fictional in places. Certainly, any images that are edited cannot claim to be wholly factual, they are the result of choices made by the photographer on the other end of the lens. Nonetheless, it is widely accepted that categories of media texts can be classed as non-fiction, that their aim is to reveal a version of reality that is less filtered and reconstructed than in a fiction text. Such texts are often constructed from a particular moral or political perspective, and cannot therefore claim to be objective. Other texts purport simply to record an event, although decisions made in post-production mean that actuality is edited, re-sequenced and artificially framed. The documentary maker generally establishes a thesis before starting the construction of their text, and the process of documentary-making can be simply the ratification of their idea. Perhaps, to misquote Eco, the objectivity of the text lies not in the origin but the destination?

                                                The documentary genre has a range of purposes, from the simple selection and recording of events (a snapshot or unedited holiday video) to a polemic text that attempts to persuade the audience into a specific set of opinions (Bowling For Columbine). Audiences must identify that purpose early on and will therefore decode documentary texts differently to fictional narratives.

                                                Modes of Documentary

                                                In his 2001 book, Introduction to Documentary (Indiana University Press), Bill Nichols defines the following six modes of documentary

                                                * The Poetic Mode ('reassembling fragments of the world', a transformation of historical material into a more abstract, lyrical form, usually associated with 1920s and modernist ideas)
                                                * The Expository Mode ('direct address', social issues assembled into an argumentative frame, mediated by a voice-of-God narration, associated with 1920s-1930s, and some of the rhetoric and polemic surrounding WW2)
                                                * The Observational Mode (as technology advanced by the 1960s and cameras became smaller and lighter, able to document life in a less intrusive manner, there is less control required over lighting etc, leaving the social actors free to act and the documentarists free to record without interacting with each other)
                                                * The Participatory Mode (the encounter between film-maker and subject is recorded, as the film-maker actively engages with the situation they are documenting, asking questions of their subjects, sharing experiences with them. Heavily reliant on the honesty of witnesses)
                                                * The Reflexive Mode (demonstrates consciousness of the process of reading documentary, and engages actively with the issues of realism and representation, acknowledging the presence of the viewer and the modality judgements they arrive at. Corresponds to critical theory of the 1980s)
                                                * The Performative Mode (acknowledges the emotional and subjective aspects of documentary, and presents ideas as part of a context, having different meanings for different people, often autobiographical in nature)

                                                These roughly correspond to developmental phases in the genre, when new generations of documentary makers have challenged the forms and conventions that have gone before, and re-invented what documentary means for them.

                                                Comment

                                                • Porn Farmer
                                                  Confirmed User
                                                  • Feb 2007
                                                  • 928

                                                  #74
                                                  A bit more on documentary filmmaking:

                                                  Film theorist Paul Rotha offers a more in-depth and analogous definition:

                                                  "Documentary defines not subject or style, but approach. It denies neither trained actors nor the advantages of staging. It justifies the use of every known technical artifice to gain its effect on the spectator....To the documentary director the appearance of things and people is only superficial. It is the meaning behind the thing and the significance underlying the person that occupy his attention....Documentary approach to cinema differs from that of story-film not in its disregard for craftsmanship, but in the purpose to which that craftsmanship is put. Documentary is a trade just as carpentry or pot-making. The pot-maker makes pots, and the documentarian documentaries."

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                                                  • 12clicks
                                                    Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                    • Jan 2001
                                                    • 19814

                                                    #75
                                                    Originally posted by Funbrunette
                                                    Thumbs up!

                                                    There's 2 things I refuse to talk about or voice my opinion on, Religion and politics. However I will make an exception...This movie was a master piece! A harsh look at reality.

                                                    Sicko boldly and brilliantly challenges entrenched American attitudes about capitalism. Although some scenes are devastatingly heartbreaking and may bring you to tears (I'm a huge suck), Moore's sense of humour and ability to entertain are as strong as ever. He often combines laughter and tragedy in the same scene. While Moore always wears his views on his sleeve, he also takes a step back to let people tell their stories or allows historical clips to speak for themselves(those are FACTS). In the case of Richard Nixon, Moore happily says almost nothing, letting the former president be condemned completely by his own words.

                                                    The climax was a trip to Cuba. Moore is often criticized for exaggerating or manipulating facts, but there is always so much truth at the heart of his films. Sicko shows Moore at his very best.

                                                    I'm hoping this will open eyes of people who have the power to make changes!
                                                    I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

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                                                    • Kard63
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Nov 2003
                                                      • 8944

                                                      #76
                                                      Prepare yourself to be bashed by redneck republican trash and schmucks who try to look confident and fancy themselves elite professionals while really wanting no more out of life than to be Reagan era yuppies.

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                                                      • directfiesta
                                                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                        • Oct 2002
                                                        • 30208

                                                        #77
                                                        Originally posted by 12clicks
                                                        I know that Asspimple is stoopid ... As he says, it is a FACT !

                                                        But I can't figure out how he can breathe or type , at the same time ....

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