Americans will start moving out of the US

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  • wig
    Confirmed User
    • Feb 2002
    • 708
    #101
    Originally posted by Robbie
    Exactly. And I can tell you that I for one am always scheming up new projects and new ways to make money. Put me in a country like Panama or Costa Rica or similar where it's a million times easier & cheaper to open a brick and mortar business than it is here in the U.S. and I guarantee you I'll have something going on locally that will boost the economy...preferably a titty bar. heh-heh
    100 Expats!

    It's not that easy. Nothing works here (in Panama) like that and you will quickly learn a whole new way of trying to do business.

    Your best bet is to continue doing something online, where your place of residence is only limited to your ability to have an decent internet connection.

    The rest of the lifestyle, needs, climate, taxes, etc is personal.
    Last edited by wig; 05-12-2011, 06:14 AM.
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      • sperbonzo
        I'd rather be on my boat.
        • May 2003
        • 9750
        #102
        Originally posted by 12clicks
        of course it does.

        There are those that aren't smart enough to understand and those that pander to them.
        I understand your emotion, but I think the reality is that at this point universities are run by academics who don't understand, or believe in, a free market; and couldn't succeed in a situation where they were not protected by tenure and tax funding. They are the ones that teach the teachers, and then those teachers submit their students to a lifetime of education which derides and attacks any notion of the reality of free markets, while espousing government control and the "delights" of socialistic policy. There is no attempt made at all to teach what the free market means, how it works, and what it achieves.

        People have become products of this educational system and, being ignorant of even the most basic realities of how economies work, or don't work, in the real world, they end up like this. It is not their fault, and it's certainly not a question of intelligence.

        It's a terrible shame, and unfortunately, by the time most people wake up to the reality of what economic control really means, it is too late, and the only people with any power are the political elite.



        .
        Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing

        [email protected] / http://Acellafinancial.com/

        ICQ 177961090 / Tel +1 909 NET BILL / Skype msperber

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          • wig
            Confirmed User
            • Feb 2002
            • 708
            #103
            Originally posted by sperbonzo
            I understand your emotion, but I think the reality is that at this point universities are run by academics who don't understand, or believe in, a free market; and couldn't succeed in a situation where they were not protected by tenure and tax funding. They are the ones that teach the teachers, and then those teachers submit their students to a lifetime of education which derides and attacks any notion of the reality of free markets, while espousing government control and the "delights" of socialistic policy. There is no attempt made at all to teach what the free market means, how it works, and what it achieves.

            People have become products of this educational system and, being ignorant of even the most basic realities of how economies work, or don't work, in the real world, they end up like this. It is not their fault, and it's certainly not a question of intelligence.

            It's a terrible shame, and unfortunately, by the time most people wake up to the reality of what economic control really means, it is too late, and the only people with any power are the political elite.



            .
            There's some truth in this, but it's not quite that lopsided.

            Adam Smith's invisible hand libertarians are as deluded as the believers in strict central / top down control.

            Economics is not a hard science. It is a dynamic phenomenon subject to all sorts of factors and the balance point is somewhere near the middle of these extremes.
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              • Robbie
                Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                • Aug 2002
                • 20960
                #104
                Originally posted by wig
                100 Expats!

                It's not that easy. Nothing works here (in Panama) like that and you will quickly learn a whole new way of trying to do business.
                What would it require to open a strip club for instance? Paying off the local authorities (that's the way it is here in the U.S. already)? I'm still thinking it would be a million times easier to do in Panama.

                If I wanted to open a club here in Vegas for example...I would need several million dollars and then have to go jump through so many govt. hoops. And then once it's open it's an ongoing hassle with the gaming commission, liquor authorities, city, county, state...headache after expensive headache....and all the while they send the undercover cops in every night trying to shut you down.

                Has to be easier there, right?
                -Robbie
                ClaudiaMarie.Com

                  Comment

                  • sperbonzo
                    I'd rather be on my boat.
                    • May 2003
                    • 9750
                    #105
                    Originally posted by wig
                    There's some truth in this, but it's not quite that lopsided.

                    Adam Smith's invisible hand libertarians are as deluded as the believers in strict central / top down control.

                    Economics is not a hard science. It is a dynamic phenomenon subject to all sorts of factors and the balance point is somewhere near the middle of these extremes.
                    Fair enough. Then what were your thoughts regarding my original post?
                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Bill8 View Post

                    so explain to me why losing any one wealthy person or any thousand wealthy persons hurts this country, where there are hundreds of thousands happy to take their place, hungrier than them to create businesses?

                    anyone who would leave wasn't going to contribute anything anyway, and had already decided to fuck this country, so in what possible way are we harmed by seeing them run?
                    .
                    No offense to you personally, but this may have been the silliest post I've seen in a long time. Wealth is not a zero-sum game. Nothing is stopping those "hundreds of thousands" from starting their own businesses. Having rich people around to invest in those startups actually helps them!

                    If you become rich it's not because someone left and you took their place. If a millionaire leaves the country, and a burger flipper moves into his house, does that mean that the guy flipping burgers is now going to generate huge amounts of income? Is he suddenly going to come out with a new smart phone, or open a chain of restaurants, or come up with a new mass cargo technology?

                    Great wealth is created by the people that are smart enough, creative enough, work hard enough, and are willing to take enough risks, to create a product or service that fulfills a need so large that a huge amount of wealth is generated. It's not some fixed "pie", whereby when you have more, someone else has less.

                    When someone like you advocates pushing out all of the producers, you will definitely NOT want to live in the state that you will have then created. You will end up in a situation where all you have is a languishing status quo, with no advancement from there on, which will eventually decay into total entropy.



                    .
                    Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing

                    [email protected] / http://Acellafinancial.com/

                    ICQ 177961090 / Tel +1 909 NET BILL / Skype msperber

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                      • wig
                        Confirmed User
                        • Feb 2002
                        • 708
                        #106
                        Originally posted by sperbonzo
                        Fair enough. Then what were your thoughts regarding my original post?
                        I totally agree. I would add to this...

                        "created by the people that are smart enough, creative enough, work hard enough, and are willing to take enough risks, and fortunate"

                        I say that because there are lots of people who are smart, work hard, take risks and fail, and there are the not so smart and lazy that are rather fortunate (lucky).
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                          • wig
                            Confirmed User
                            • Feb 2002
                            • 708
                            #107
                            BTW, I understand you have something going on down here??

                            Hit me up when your in town and let's get together.
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                              • sperbonzo
                                I'd rather be on my boat.
                                • May 2003
                                • 9750
                                #108
                                Originally posted by wig
                                BTW, I understand you have something going on down here??

                                Hit me up when your in town and let's get together.

                                Send me an email with your latest contact info when you get a chance.



                                .
                                Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing

                                [email protected] / http://Acellafinancial.com/

                                ICQ 177961090 / Tel +1 909 NET BILL / Skype msperber

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                                  • wig
                                    Confirmed User
                                    • Feb 2002
                                    • 708
                                    #109
                                    Originally posted by sperbonzo
                                    Send me an email with your latest contact info when you get a chance.



                                    .
                                    Done.
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                                      • NetHorse
                                        Confirmed User
                                        • Dec 2006
                                        • 3526
                                        #110
                                        Originally posted by Intrinsic
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                                          • Cherry7
                                            Confirmed User
                                            • Aug 2005
                                            • 3564
                                            #111
                                            The rich will do anything for the poor except get off their backs.

                                            Karl Marx

                                            You become rich by employing people who make you $2000 a month and paying them $1000 a month.


                                            After a revolution where the rich leave the economy normally improves within 5 years and the majority will be a lot better off.
                                            My Neighbour Butterfly PORN-The Musical The Long Goodbye


                                            Cinema Erotique

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                                              • wig
                                                Confirmed User
                                                • Feb 2002
                                                • 708
                                                #112
                                                Originally posted by Robbie
                                                What would it require to open a strip club for instance? Paying off the local authorities (that's the way it is here in the U.S. already)? I'm still thinking it would be a million times easier to do in Panama.

                                                If I wanted to open a club here in Vegas for example...I would need several million dollars and then have to go jump through so many govt. hoops. And then once it's open it's an ongoing hassle with the gaming commission, liquor authorities, city, county, state...headache after expensive headache....and all the while they send the undercover cops in every night trying to shut you down.

                                                Has to be easier there, right?
                                                First, there are gringos that do biz here and I'm sure it takes a certain talent, so I'm not saying doing a brick and mortar biz here can't be a lucrative venture.

                                                I don't have any first hand experience. I can only offer what I've heard from friends and acquaintances that have done it (and not specifically strip clubs).

                                                Other than the upfront cost, I'd say it's similar stuff to what you listed but harder to contend with plus much stricter labor requirements / laws, and for a strip club you can count on immigration and customs. And when there is something that requires courts, it gets worse. Napoleonic law here, not English Common law.

                                                This is my take having listened to the stories.
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                                                  • sperbonzo
                                                    I'd rather be on my boat.
                                                    • May 2003
                                                    • 9750
                                                    #113
                                                    Originally posted by Cherry7
                                                    The rich will do anything for the poor except get off their backs.

                                                    Karl Marx

                                                    You become rich by employing people who make you $2000 a month and paying them $1000 a month.


                                                    After a revolution where the rich leave the economy normally improves within 5 years and the majority will be a lot better off.

                                                    Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing

                                                    [email protected] / http://Acellafinancial.com/

                                                    ICQ 177961090 / Tel +1 909 NET BILL / Skype msperber

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                                                      • 12clicks
                                                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                        • Jan 2001
                                                        • 19813
                                                        #114
                                                        Originally posted by Cherry7
                                                        The rich will do anything for the poor except get off their backs.

                                                        Karl Marx

                                                        You become rich by employing people who make you $2000 a month and paying them $1000 a month.


                                                        After a revolution where the rich leave the economy normally improves within 5 years and the majority will be a lot better off.
                                                        good luck with life.
                                                        you've wasted a lot of time reading the wrong books
                                                        I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

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                                                          • Robbie
                                                            Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                            • Aug 2002
                                                            • 20960
                                                            #115
                                                            I'm glad I have Cherry7 on Ignore...but since you guys quoted him:
                                                            What economy has EVER had no rich people after a "revolution"?

                                                            The ONLY thing that happens after a revolution is different people steal the original rich folks wealth and then THEY become the new rich people.

                                                            As The Who said: "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"
                                                            -Robbie
                                                            ClaudiaMarie.Com

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                                                              • 12clicks
                                                                Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                • Jan 2001
                                                                • 19813
                                                                #116
                                                                Originally posted by Robbie


                                                                As The Who said: "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"
                                                                and I'd add to cherry7
                                                                "the new boss will never be you"
                                                                I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

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                                                                  • BlackCrayon
                                                                    Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                    • Jun 2003
                                                                    • 19634
                                                                    #117
                                                                    aside from online businesses, those who made their money did so by being in america. the idea that they would of had the same success in some kind of second/third world economy is laughable.
                                                                    you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..

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                                                                      • Robbie
                                                                        Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                        • Aug 2002
                                                                        • 20960
                                                                        #118
                                                                        Originally posted by BlackCrayon
                                                                        aside from online businesses, those who made their money did so by being in america. the idea that they would of had the same success in some kind of second/third world economy is laughable.
                                                                        What do you mean?
                                                                        You know I toured Peru in 1984 with my band. And we stayed in mansions in the mountains just outside of Lima with armed guards, private nightclubs, etc.

                                                                        The majority of that "third world country" is dirt poor...they literally live in the mud. There is no middle class. But you better bet your ass that there is a wealthy class and they are multi-millionaires.

                                                                        Smart people can make money anywhere. And if you got the balls...and the guts....you can probably make MORE money in a third world country (not in technology obviously)
                                                                        -Robbie
                                                                        ClaudiaMarie.Com

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                                                                          • wig
                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                            • Feb 2002
                                                                            • 708
                                                                            #119
                                                                            Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                            What do you mean?
                                                                            You know I toured Peru in 1984 with my band. And we stayed in mansions in the mountains just outside of Lima with armed guards, private nightclubs, etc.

                                                                            The majority of that "third world country" is dirt poor...they literally live in the mud. There is no middle class. But you better bet your ass that there is a wealthy class and they are multi-millionaires.

                                                                            Smart people can make money anywhere. And if you got the balls...and the guts....you can probably make MORE money in a third world country (not in technology obviously)
                                                                            I think he means Americans leaving the USA...
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                                                                              • Bill8
                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                • Oct 2001
                                                                                • 1901
                                                                                #120
                                                                                Originally posted by sperbonzo
                                                                                No offense to you personally, but this may have been the silliest post I've seen in a long time. Wealth is not a zero-sum game. Nothing is stopping those "hundreds of thousands" from starting their own businesses. Having rich people around to invest in those startups actually helps them!

                                                                                If you become rich it's not because someone left and you took their place. If a millionaire leaves the country, and a burger flipper moves into his house, does that mean that the guy flipping burgers is now going to generate huge amounts of income? Is he suddenly going to come out with a new smart phone, or open a chain of restaurants, or come up with a new mass cargo technology?

                                                                                Great wealth is created by the people that are smart enough, creative enough, work hard enough, and are willing to take enough risks, to create a product or service that fulfills a need so large that a huge amount of wealth is generated. It's not some fixed "pie", whereby when you have more, someone else has less.

                                                                                When someone like you advocates pushing out all of the producers, you will definitely NOT want to live in the state that you will have then created. You will end up in a situation where all you have is a languishing status quo, with no advancement from there on, which will eventually decay into total entropy.



                                                                                .
                                                                                you are distorting my argument, and using straw man rhetoric, by saying I have advocated "pushing" producers out of the country.

                                                                                at no point do I make that suggestion, and you can't point to a sentence where I have.

                                                                                what I said was, if "they" (the wealthy) want to go, based on such offers, we are just as well off to let them go, and good riddance.

                                                                                anybody who would take such an offer was already on their way out anyway.

                                                                                and you haven't demonstrated that the economy is not a zero sum game, which opens up an entirely new line of argument. asserting that is not is not an argument.

                                                                                BUT, following up on your line of argument - you asserted that the economy is not a zero-sum game, THEN you contradicted yourself by implying that the wealthy, and their money and productivity, is a FIXED resource, one in which we lose (the very definition of zero-sum) if we lose any of that fixed resource.

                                                                                so, your whole argument is based an an assertion that you immediately self-contradict.

                                                                                so what is it - are the wealthy a fixed resource, such that the american economy loses if some one wealthy person leaves, and therefore a zero sum game? or is the economy not a zero-sum game, such that if one rich person takes some offer from some shithole country and emigrates, they are no loss, because they can be instantly replaced, and the local money stream remains equivalent?

                                                                                and by the way, your argument, as I just demonstrated, was silly and self-contradictory, and based on distortions of my argument (straw man) for the purposes of forwarding your political and moral agenda. Your agenda does NOT respond to how we should feel about other countries offering lures to rich americans to emigrate.
                                                                                Last edited by Bill8; 05-12-2011, 12:53 PM.

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                                                                                  • wig
                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                    • Feb 2002
                                                                                    • 708
                                                                                    #121
                                                                                    As the world gets smaller and more globalized, countries will compete more for quality labor and skills, and economic impact.

                                                                                    There is of course a reason for this. Depending on the country, one might develop ways of keeping their skilled earners or acquiring skilled earners or both.
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                                                                                      • sperbonzo
                                                                                        I'd rather be on my boat.
                                                                                        • May 2003
                                                                                        • 9750
                                                                                        #122
                                                                                        Originally posted by Bill8

                                                                                        anybody who would take such an offer was already on their way out anyway.
                                                                                        This is patently untrue. People act in their own self interests... EVEN YOU. If I set up a scenario whereby it is better for you and your family to move rather than stay, you will move. Unless of course you are self-destructive and a masochist. For example if you were Jewish and it was 1939, you would probably want to leave Germany.


                                                                                        Originally posted by Bill8
                                                                                        and you haven't demonstrated that the economy is not a zero sum game, which opens up an entirely new line of argument. asserting that is not is not an argument.
                                                                                        I could just ask that you simply read more, but let me put this line of logic to you. If wealth is a zero-sum game, then all of the wealth in the world would have existed from the beginning of time. The fact is that "wealth", or "value" is derived anytime a new product or service is created. An empty field is worth very little. If you cultivate it and produce food with it, you have created "wealth", you haven't taken it from anybody. If you sell your goods at market, then you are increasing the wealth of the community. If you find coal and iron on your land, and you use your skills and labor to create products from that, you are creating new wealth, NOT taking if from someone else.


                                                                                        Originally posted by Bill8
                                                                                        BUT, following up on your line of argument - you asserted that the economy is not a zero-sum game, THEN you contradicted yourself by implying that the wealthy, and their money and productivity, is a FIXED resource, one in which we lose (the very definition of zero-sum) if we lose any of that fixed resource.

                                                                                        so, your whole argument is based an an assertion that you immediately self-contradict.

                                                                                        so what is it - are the wealthy a fixed resource, such that the american economy loses if some one wealthy person leaves, and therefore a zero sum game? or is the economy not a zero-sum game, such that if one rich person takes some offer from some shithole country and emigrates, they are no loss, because they can be instantly replaced, and the local money stream remains equivalent?
                                                                                        Apparently you aren't able to tell the difference between two very different concepts.
                                                                                        "Wealth" and "value" are attached to things that people want or need. They are relative values, not absolutes. As I pointed out above, more wealth is created simply by more products and services entering the flow of an economy, NOT by taking if from one person and giving it to another.

                                                                                        People, on the other hand, are absolute objects. There are a certain number of people within an economy who will tend to rise to great wealth because of their abilities and their inclination to take the risks and do the work inherent in creating new wealth within that economy. People that want to take that kind of risk do so, they don't suddenly get the urge just because the rich guy down the street is no longer there.

                                                                                        There is no contradiction here. The concept of "wealth and value" in an economy is an abstract. People are real things. If you kill a person and bury them, they are gone forever. If you take all the money and bury it, wealth will still exist in the form of new goods and services, even if you have to resort to the barter system.


                                                                                        .
                                                                                        Last edited by sperbonzo; 05-12-2011, 01:12 PM.
                                                                                        Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing

                                                                                        [email protected] / http://Acellafinancial.com/

                                                                                        ICQ 177961090 / Tel +1 909 NET BILL / Skype msperber

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                                                                                          • Bill8
                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                            • Oct 2001
                                                                                            • 1901
                                                                                            #123
                                                                                            Originally posted by sperbonzo
                                                                                            This is patently untrue. People act in their own self interests... EVEN YOU. If I set up a scenario whereby it is better for you and your family to move rather than stay, you will move. Unless of course you are self-destructive and a masochist. For example if you were Jewish and it was 1939, you would probably want to leave Germany.



                                                                                            I could just ask that you simply read more, but let me put this line of logic to you. If wealth is a zero-sum game, then all of the wealth in the world would have existed from the beginning of time. The fact is that "wealth", or "value" is derived anytime a new product or service is created. An empty field is worth very little. If you cultivate it and produce food with it, you have created "wealth", you haven't taken it from anybody. If you sell your goods at market, then you are increasing the wealth of the community. If you find coal and iron on your land, and you create products from that, you are creating new wealth, NOT taking if from someone else.




                                                                                            Apparently you aren't able to tell the difference between two very different concepts. "Wealth" and "value" are attached to things that people want or need. They are relative values, not absolutes. As I pointed out above, more wealth is created simply by more products and services entering the flow of an economy, NOT by taking if from one person and giving it to another.
                                                                                            People, on the other hand, are absolute objects. There are a certain number of people within an economy who will tend to rise to great wealth because of their abilities and their inclination to take the risks and do the work inherent in creating new wealth within that economy.

                                                                                            There is no contradiction here. The concept of "wealth and value" in an economy is an abstract. People are real things. If you kill a person and bury them, they are gone forever. If you take all the money and bury it, wealth will still exist in the form of new goods and services, even if you have to resort to the barter system.


                                                                                            .
                                                                                            now you are evading my arguments, and retreating into murky philosophy in a classic attempt to red herring, as a cover for your earlier straw man.

                                                                                            are the wealthy a fixed resource, or not?

                                                                                            how should we feel about other countries offering lures for emigration?

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                                                                                              • sabin
                                                                                                Registered User
                                                                                                • May 2011
                                                                                                • 60
                                                                                                #124
                                                                                                USA is still a good deal for rich people right now, but we're a couple decades away from the shit hitting the fan as far as national debt. as soon as China develops a strong enough domestic market and they don't need us to buy their shit, they will call in their loans and laugh as our economy collapses, for real collapses not this recession bullshit, overnight.

                                                                                                but jumping ship is a bit premature at this point.
                                                                                                Add to my Site: Add your URL | Add a Pornstar |

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                                                                                                  • sperbonzo
                                                                                                    I'd rather be on my boat.
                                                                                                    • May 2003
                                                                                                    • 9750
                                                                                                    #125
                                                                                                    Originally posted by Bill8
                                                                                                    now you are evading my arguments, and retreating into murky philosophy in a classic attempt to red herring, as a cover for your earlier straw man.

                                                                                                    are the wealthy a fixed resource, or not?

                                                                                                    So you really don't understand the difference between "Wealth" itself and "The Wealthy" (i.e. people who have and create wealth)? REALLY??

                                                                                                    You find that difference "murky"?

                                                                                                    I answered your post pretty directly. Sorry if it didn't consist of only one 7 word sentence. As with my first post, the economy is not some comic-book concept, it's a complex set of human interactions, on par with any ecosystem.

                                                                                                    I guess I'm going to have to simply refer you to doing some research on your own, since it seems by your answers that you don't have the comprehension skills needed to continue the discussion. I don't mean this as a personal insult, I just am flabbergasted that you would find anything I have posted in this thread "murky"

                                                                                                    Good luck with all that.



                                                                                                    .




                                                                                                    .
                                                                                                    Last edited by sperbonzo; 05-12-2011, 01:29 PM.
                                                                                                    Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing

                                                                                                    [email protected] / http://Acellafinancial.com/

                                                                                                    ICQ 177961090 / Tel +1 909 NET BILL / Skype msperber

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                                                                                                      • Robbie
                                                                                                        Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                                                        • Aug 2002
                                                                                                        • 20960
                                                                                                        #126
                                                                                                        Originally posted by Bill8
                                                                                                        now you are evading my arguments, and retreating into murky philosophy in a classic attempt to red herring, as a cover for your earlier straw man.

                                                                                                        are the wealthy a fixed resource, or not?

                                                                                                        how should we feel about other countries offering lures for emigration?
                                                                                                        Dude, you're the one getting all "murky"

                                                                                                        Let me make it simple:
                                                                                                        Smart and ambitious people create wealth. When they all leave...you have a country full of lazy dumbasses.

                                                                                                        Nothing "philosophical" there.
                                                                                                        -Robbie
                                                                                                        ClaudiaMarie.Com

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                                                                                                          • wig
                                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                                            • Feb 2002
                                                                                                            • 708
                                                                                                            #127
                                                                                                            Originally posted by sabin
                                                                                                            USA is still a good deal for rich people right now, but we're a couple decades away from the shit hitting the fan as far as national debt. as soon as China develops a strong enough domestic market and they don't need us to buy their shit, they will call in their loans and laugh as our economy collapses, for real collapses not this recession bullshit, overnight.

                                                                                                            but jumping ship is a bit premature at this point.
                                                                                                            By "call in their loans" you mean sell their treasury holdings on the open market, right?

                                                                                                            I mean, they don't have put options on the bonds they hold, so your use of terms seems misleading if not wrong.
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                                                                                                              • Bill8
                                                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                                                • Oct 2001
                                                                                                                • 1901
                                                                                                                #128
                                                                                                                Originally posted by sperbonzo
                                                                                                                So you really don't understand the difference between "Wealth" itself and "The Wealthy" (i.e. people who have and create wealth)? REALLY??

                                                                                                                You find that difference "murky"?

                                                                                                                I answered your post pretty directly. Sorry if it didn't consist of only one 7 word sentence. As with my first post, the economy is not some comic-book concept, it's a complex set of human interactions, on par with any ecosystem.

                                                                                                                I guess I'm going to have to simply refer you to doing some research on your own, since it seems by your answers that you don't have the comprehension skills needed to continue the discussion. I don't mean this as a personal insult, I just am flabbergasted that you would find anything I have posted in this thread "murky"

                                                                                                                Good luck with all that.



                                                                                                                .




                                                                                                                .
                                                                                                                more evasion.

                                                                                                                the questions are simple. you could always just answer them.

                                                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                                                  • sperbonzo
                                                                                                                    I'd rather be on my boat.
                                                                                                                    • May 2003
                                                                                                                    • 9750
                                                                                                                    #129
                                                                                                                    Originally posted by Bill8
                                                                                                                    more evasion.

                                                                                                                    the questions are simple. you could always just answer them.

                                                                                                                    I did.


                                                                                                                    I figure at this point that you are simply trolling. No one can be that dense.





                                                                                                                    .
                                                                                                                    Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing

                                                                                                                    [email protected] / http://Acellafinancial.com/

                                                                                                                    ICQ 177961090 / Tel +1 909 NET BILL / Skype msperber

                                                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                                                      • Bill8
                                                                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                                                                        • Oct 2001
                                                                                                                        • 1901
                                                                                                                        #130
                                                                                                                        Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                                                                        Dude, you're the one getting all "murky"

                                                                                                                        Let me make it simple:
                                                                                                                        Smart and ambitious people create wealth. When they all leave...you have a country full of lazy dumbasses.

                                                                                                                        Nothing "philosophical" there.
                                                                                                                        so, your model is that individuals are a fixed resource, that there is a limited number of smart and therefore wealthy individuals, and that other countries offering inducements to get wealthy individuals to leave is - what exactly?

                                                                                                                        you are mis-stating the problem.

                                                                                                                        but at least you are honestly saying you feel it's a zero-sum game.

                                                                                                                        here's how you mis-state:

                                                                                                                        "When they all leave..."

                                                                                                                        the OP, and my response to the OP, said nothing about them ALL leaving.

                                                                                                                        Nobody is talking about all the wealthy leaving, altho, I can make a good argument that in fact the richest americans have already abandoned the american economy, invested all their capital in the multinational marketplace, which is why job growth in this country is in deep fucking shit.

                                                                                                                        the OP said "I've heard some countries are going to be running ads in the US to get wealthy Americans to completely move, even offering deals like instant citizenship, no taxes, and interest free loans for their business."

                                                                                                                        I said: "I hope they fuckin leave.

                                                                                                                        they ain't doing anything useful here, and if they are gone, it just opens up space for somebody less useless."

                                                                                                                        my argument is, anybody who would take such an offer is already useless to the country, and we are better off without them, because their absence creates an economic space which can be filled by more locally ambitious persons.

                                                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                                                          • Cherry7
                                                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                                                            • Aug 2005
                                                                                                                            • 3564
                                                                                                                            #131
                                                                                                                            Originally posted by Robbie
                                                                                                                            Dude, you're the one getting all "murky"

                                                                                                                            Let me make it simple:
                                                                                                                            Smart and ambitious people create wealth. When they all leave...you have a country full of lazy dumbasses.

                                                                                                                            Nothing "philosophical" there.
                                                                                                                            Workers make wealth by creating it, by farming, mining, transportation and distribution. UK company TESCO makes £93,000 per employee, they work 6 hours to earn their wage and the rest 34 hours for the company.

                                                                                                                            Most control of wealth is passed from father to son, and very little class mobility, if you born poor the chances are you will die poor. While capitalism was in competition with the Soviets wages rose, we had free Health Care and education, now after 30 years of technological development, we "can't afford it" . Wealth is moving from the poor to the rich again. Neo liberalism.....


                                                                                                                            The American fairy story of making it rich is mostly myth.

                                                                                                                            The Soviet Union industrialised without any rich people.
                                                                                                                            My Neighbour Butterfly PORN-The Musical The Long Goodbye


                                                                                                                            Cinema Erotique

                                                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                                                              • Bill8
                                                                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                • Oct 2001
                                                                                                                                • 1901
                                                                                                                                #132
                                                                                                                                Originally posted by sperbonzo
                                                                                                                                I did.


                                                                                                                                I figure at this point that you are simply trolling. No one can be that dense.





                                                                                                                                .
                                                                                                                                you are evading. your attempt to red herring with "wealth" and "value" have nothing to do with how we should feel about other countries offering lures for the wealthy to emigrate.

                                                                                                                                you did not even attempt to answer my questions or respond to my main points.

                                                                                                                                i am not trolling, everyone here by now knows who I am and roughly how I argue.

                                                                                                                                you ran out of bullets and tried to throw your gun at me, and now you are running away from your own argument, because even you can see the errors you made, and that you have let your agenda trap you in an undefendable position.

                                                                                                                                there is an easy way out - say, "okay, maybe I misunderstood your argument and reacted from my agenda, but we both have agendas, let me get back to the issue".

                                                                                                                                and argue the issue without straw man or red herring.

                                                                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                                                                  • wig
                                                                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                    • Feb 2002
                                                                                                                                    • 708
                                                                                                                                    #133
                                                                                                                                    no body like my fatfoo impersonation?
                                                                                                                                    Credit Card and ACH Processing

                                                                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                                                                      • Robbie
                                                                                                                                        Leaner, Meaner, Faster
                                                                                                                                        • Aug 2002
                                                                                                                                        • 20960
                                                                                                                                        #134
                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by Bill8
                                                                                                                                        so, your model is that individuals are a fixed resource, that there is a limited number of smart and therefore wealthy individuals, and that other countries offering inducements to get wealthy individuals to leave is - what exactly?

                                                                                                                                        you are mis-stating the problem.

                                                                                                                                        but at least you are honestly saying you feel it's a zero-sum game.

                                                                                                                                        here's how you mis-state:

                                                                                                                                        "When they all leave..."

                                                                                                                                        the OP, and my response to the OP, said nothing about them ALL leaving.

                                                                                                                                        Nobody is talking about all the wealthy leaving, altho, I can make a good argument that in fact the richest americans have already abandoned the american economy, invested all their capital in the multinational marketplace, which is why job growth in this country is in deep fucking shit.

                                                                                                                                        the OP said "I've heard some countries are going to be running ads in the US to get wealthy Americans to completely move, even offering deals like instant citizenship, no taxes, and interest free loans for their business."

                                                                                                                                        I said: "I hope they fuckin leave.

                                                                                                                                        they ain't doing anything useful here, and if they are gone, it just opens up space for somebody less useless."

                                                                                                                                        my argument is, anybody who would take such an offer is already useless to the country, and we are better off without them, because their absence creates an economic space which can be filled by more locally ambitious persons.
                                                                                                                                        This is definitely a GideonGallery fake nic

                                                                                                                                        Speak plainly man. It's this simple...(trying again):
                                                                                                                                        Some people are WINNERS (smart, ambitious, leaders, and work-a-holics)
                                                                                                                                        Some people are LOSERS (lazy, no ambition or drive, followers)

                                                                                                                                        IF ALL the people who are winners leave a certain area: you have nothing left but LOSERS.

                                                                                                                                        How hard is that to understand? It's not a "zero-sum game" Quit using dumbass terminology that doesn't fit here. I'm sure that some more "smart" people will be born, grow up, and kick some ass...but in the meantime you would be left with a country full of Followers and "worker bees".

                                                                                                                                        Damn dude. Can't you understand that there is a REASON some people are successful? There is a reason some people are Generals and some people are grunt soldiers?

                                                                                                                                        If we both start a football team...and all of you talented players leave your team and join mine...I will win everytime. Stop with the gideongallery "let's use big words that don't apply and try to sound smart" arguments.

                                                                                                                                        If all the wealthy people in the U.S. left right now...they would also take their best people with them. And we'd be left with a bunch of dumbasses.

                                                                                                                                        Think about China...remember your history? Mao "purged" all the wealthy and intellectuals (killed them). And China is just NOW becoming powerful again. He crippled that country for generations.
                                                                                                                                        -Robbie
                                                                                                                                        ClaudiaMarie.Com

                                                                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                                                                          • sperbonzo
                                                                                                                                            I'd rather be on my boat.
                                                                                                                                            • May 2003
                                                                                                                                            • 9750
                                                                                                                                            #135
                                                                                                                                            Bill8, do you even understand the meaning of zero-sum game? Wealth is not a zero sum game because of the fact that just because one person becomes wealthy, it does not mean that someone else must have less. Wealthy people, on the other hand, have nothing to do with that term. You seem to be swimming in semantic waters that are way over your head here. BTW. Your point about the UK does not apply in the US. Only a very very small percentage of millionaires in US inherited their wealth. I suggest you look it up
                                                                                                                                            Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing

                                                                                                                                            [email protected] / http://Acellafinancial.com/

                                                                                                                                            ICQ 177961090 / Tel +1 909 NET BILL / Skype msperber

                                                                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                                                                              • sperbonzo
                                                                                                                                                I'd rather be on my boat.
                                                                                                                                                • May 2003
                                                                                                                                                • 9750
                                                                                                                                                #136
                                                                                                                                                As for your assertions regarding the soviet union becoming industrialized, you should try talking to some of the people that escaped from there.


                                                                                                                                                Actually, if you are quoting the soviet union as a success story then it shows that our world view is SO far apart that this is a hopeless discussion. All I can hope for you is that you live in a place that matches your philosophy... They do exist out there you know. I advise you to go for it!

                                                                                                                                                And good luck...
                                                                                                                                                Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing

                                                                                                                                                [email protected] / http://Acellafinancial.com/

                                                                                                                                                ICQ 177961090 / Tel +1 909 NET BILL / Skype msperber

                                                                                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                                                                                  • DWB
                                                                                                                                                    Registered User
                                                                                                                                                    • Jul 2003
                                                                                                                                                    • 31779
                                                                                                                                                    #137
                                                                                                                                                    Bitches ain't shit in Chinese money.

                                                                                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                                                                                      • ThatOtherGuy - BANNED FOR LIFE
                                                                                                                                                        So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                                                        • Apr 2011
                                                                                                                                                        • 1241
                                                                                                                                                        #138
                                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by DWB
                                                                                                                                                        1) To put money in THEIR banks.
                                                                                                                                                        2) To inject money into THEIR economy.
                                                                                                                                                        3) Wealthy people will usually invest in some way into the area they are living.

                                                                                                                                                        They are not inviting the wealthy to come so they can have tea with them.
                                                                                                                                                        Well...
                                                                                                                                                        These so called rich people do not seem to be investing in shit so what does it matter?

                                                                                                                                                        On a lighter note I watched 60 Minutes and there was a bit about how the financial collapse placed billions and billions of dollars into other peoples hands that did nothing but bet against the industry.


                                                                                                                                                        The Effect?
                                                                                                                                                        An enormous transfer of wealth occured and those people that got all the wealth are basically doing nothing with it.

                                                                                                                                                        So it is like all the hamburger workers got the wealth from the fall out.
                                                                                                                                                        They are not reinvesting, they are not opening business, they are basically just sitting on it.

                                                                                                                                                        Walls streeters and investment bankers are now getting shit tons of money but what they are doing with the shit ton they got is next to nothing though some are beginning to invest offshore in China, India Korea, South and Central America etc...

                                                                                                                                                        In short they are taking money else where. That much is obvious and confirms why Other countries are pressuring up incentives to relocate.
                                                                                                                                                        Last edited by ThatOtherGuy - BANNED FOR LIFE; 05-12-2011, 05:35 PM.

                                                                                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                                                                                          • sperbonzo
                                                                                                                                                            I'd rather be on my boat.
                                                                                                                                                            • May 2003
                                                                                                                                                            • 9750
                                                                                                                                                            #139
                                                                                                                                                            Bill8, as regards to your TESCO example. This is the kind of silliness that socialized like to quote all the time. What they forget is that, by the same token, since the average business make 10% profit and THEN has to pay taxes on that, then by the same reckoning the owners are spending 37 hours covering costs and 4 hours working for themselves.

                                                                                                                                                            It's just propaganda. Seriously. You must not own your own company if you can't understand this.
                                                                                                                                                            If you do happen to own a company then how did you do it? Did someone leave so that you could start it? Obviously, by your reasoning, you couldn't have started a company unless some other evil company owner got out of the way first... :-P
                                                                                                                                                            Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing

                                                                                                                                                            [email protected] / http://Acellafinancial.com/

                                                                                                                                                            ICQ 177961090 / Tel +1 909 NET BILL / Skype msperber

                                                                                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                                                                                              • Cherry7
                                                                                                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                • Aug 2005
                                                                                                                                                                • 3564
                                                                                                                                                                #140
                                                                                                                                                                On the point of corporations paying tax.... thats why they have offshore accounts, accountants, lobbists so that they don't pay tax....

                                                                                                                                                                If 6,000 inviduals have more than a billion dollars each they did not do that by paying fair tax, they did it by not paying tax. Tax havens.

                                                                                                                                                                The Soviet Union industrialised at terrible cost 1925 - 1940 without rich people, without a capitalist class, faster than the west, and then beat Germany in WW2. They went from the most backward country to one with space rockets in a generation.

                                                                                                                                                                The owners of TESCO have to do nothing, just keep their shares safe.
                                                                                                                                                                My Neighbour Butterfly PORN-The Musical The Long Goodbye


                                                                                                                                                                Cinema Erotique

                                                                                                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                                                                                                  • charlie g
                                                                                                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                    • Aug 2006
                                                                                                                                                                    • 2759
                                                                                                                                                                    #141
                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by Cherry7
                                                                                                                                                                    On the point of corporations paying tax.... thats why they have offshore accounts, accountants, lobbists so that they don't pay tax....

                                                                                                                                                                    If 6,000 inviduals have more than a billion dollars each they did not do that by paying fair tax, they did it by not paying tax. Tax havens.

                                                                                                                                                                    The Soviet Union industrialised at terrible cost 1925 - 1940 without rich people, without a capitalist class, faster than the west, and then beat Germany in WW2. They went from the most backward country to one with space rockets in a generation.

                                                                                                                                                                    The owners of TESCO have to do nothing, just keep their shares safe.
                                                                                                                                                                    wow, you really believe the shit you type???
                                                                                                                                                                    AlanAgus1 at gmail dot com
                                                                                                                                                                    -------------------------------

                                                                                                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                                                                                                      • RadicalSights
                                                                                                                                                                        So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                                                                        • Mar 2009
                                                                                                                                                                        • 1595
                                                                                                                                                                        #142
                                                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by cashcows
                                                                                                                                                                        Where do I sign up?

                                                                                                                                                                        The women here are spoiled (even the unattractive ones) in other parts of the world the actually appreciate men and treat them well.
                                                                                                                                                                        Most American Women are worste of the worste. Go to Eastern Europe if you want a real Woman. A guy with no children who isn't a drunk in his late 20's 30' 40's is like catnip to them over there. And they can actually cook. Oh my! Most stupid American skanks can't even boil water. They just go out to eat constantly and turn into fat asses.
                                                                                                                                                                        Last edited by RadicalSights; 05-15-2011, 03:48 AM.

                                                                                                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                                                                                                          • mafia_man
                                                                                                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                            • Jul 2005
                                                                                                                                                                            • 1965
                                                                                                                                                                            #143
                                                                                                                                                                            Originally posted by sabin
                                                                                                                                                                            USA is still a good deal for rich people right now, but we're a couple decades away from the shit hitting the fan as far as national debt. as soon as China develops a strong enough domestic market and they don't need us to buy their shit, they will call in their loans and laugh as our economy collapses, for real collapses not this recession bullshit, overnight.

                                                                                                                                                                            but jumping ship is a bit premature at this point.
                                                                                                                                                                            Why would the Chinese destroy a foreign market. They aren't calling in any loans, the interest is good enough.
                                                                                                                                                                            I'm out.

                                                                                                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                                                                                                              • Fletch XXX
                                                                                                                                                                                GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                • Jan 2002
                                                                                                                                                                                • 60840
                                                                                                                                                                                #144
                                                                                                                                                                                theyve been doing this for a loooong time, i have a teacher in my family moved his family from california to germany due to school systems so bad here.

                                                                                                                                                                                Want an Android App for your tube, membership, or free site?

                                                                                                                                                                                Need banners or promo material? Hit us up (ICQ Fletch: 148841377) or email me fletchxxx at gmail.com - recent work - About me

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