Just finished watching "SiCKO"...

It was the hospital in the network. You go where your insurance tells you to go.

Baddog, why do your teachers, police officers and firemen continue to work in your country and not find work elsewhere where they can dictate their own wages and not be bound by what the government pay?

So, you are suggesting we change our system of higher education as well.

Good luck.

I have no problem with the higher education system. You got public and private schools and there is choice. One is subsidized by the government and you pay lower fees. If it was affordable to provide free college like the French provide that would be great.

But not being able to afford to attend Yale won't lead to killing a person.

Higher education is important but no where near the importance of providing good preventive health care for your citizens and creating a better overall society.

Totally agree with all of that

That is true and a very important point I would agree with you on. It is something to improve upon. Low birth weight issues are a primary cause of infant mortality in the US. it's interesting as my daughter was born 3 months early and received a month of medical attention at a major hospital and no one asked me anything about my ability to pay. She received all the care she needed. Of course we already have medicaid coverage for poor pregnant women so it is not clear government sponsored healthcare would help at all. Sudden Infant death Syndrome is the leading cause of infant death deaths once the child leaves the hospital. To what should that be attributed? Would increased health care help? I doubt it.

However, this factor in no way negates the huge effect that obesity has on life expectancy. Go look at the obesity % by country and the average number of years life is reduced. You are talking aout 1/4 of the country losing an average as high as 13 years of life to obesity.

Absolutely not true. I don't know what is wrong with people. There is a great walk-in clinic near our office that charged me $25 (for real) for my last visit. they don't require insurance or anything like that. I asked the guy to be my regular doctor. He actually has a tiki bar in his office for Tuesday nights. And yes, I have been to some places that have charged me $300-500/visit (A fee PLUS a doctor's fee). I wised up. People will shop around for anything but medical care it seems.

I do understand that even $25, 50 or $100 might be expensive for some people. I don't forget what that was like. When I was young and poor I worked temp work to make extra money for paying such bills.

Of course, and now we have a TON of prescriptions available at Wal mart for just $4.

I taught high-school for a year after college. What a sorry group of teachers we have here in the US. It amazed me how such low quality people were being attracted to the field.

A different subject but ...

For the record, you don't have to "afford" Yale. Yale has a needs based financial aid system. Poor students have most of tuition covered. You can borrow the rest

Harvard now has free tuition for those making less than $60k/year

This is so true....my son was born 10 weeks early and we were between providers...wifes water broke at 27 weeks...they rushed her to a hospital 60 miles away that was equipped to deal with the situation....where she stayed for 3 weeks...then my sone stayed in NICU for 59 days...

without paying ...AND NO INSURANCE...to the tune of over 200K....

the case of the child with a 103 temperature was probaby more about miscommunication than inability to pay.....i have NEVER been turned away from a hospital for an emergency...EVER.

transplant surgery or elective suguries i am sure are different...but i am also fairly sure you can get treatment in these instances.....

it is all about the hospital YOU choose to go to.

Colin....lets not even GO down that road...i have 2 kids in high school....where one teacher tries to teach 9/11 conspiracies....WTF

So I take it you think you're important right???

You're good for a laugh I'll give you that

You are correct that US doctors make more. But their education is much more expensive, they pay much more in malpractice insurance, and the cost of living in the States is much higher. There is simply more money in the United States.

Yeah, save that one for another for sure.

Given some other popular threads in the past year I'm willing to bet about 1/4 of the people reading this think 911 conspiracies should be last word in current textbooks ;-)

I propose a law that states that health insurance companies have no say during the treatment of a patient. If a doctor says someone needs to stay in the hospital for 5 days, they stay for 5 days. An insurance company should not be allowed to say they will only pay for 3 days. They should not be allowed to deem procedures prescribed by doctors as "experimental" or "unnecessary" so they don't have to cover them. Any issues that the insurance company has with the bills from the doctor, should be taken up with the doctor following the completion of the services. Insurance companies interfering with doctors is a blatant conflict of interest and should be against the law.

I also propose that drug companies not be allowed to provide doctors with incentives to prescribe their drugs. Giving them information, making sales calls is one thing. Sending them on vacation, buying them gifts is another.

I propose a law that states you can't cancel an insurance policy after it's been accepted simply because you don't want to pay the medical bills. If you accept the person, accept their money for years, you can't kill the plan because you believe they left off the fact they had a yeast infection 20 years ago. It is their responsibility to research and underwrite the policy before it begins.

I also propose some government form of healthcare for those who can't get insurance. We have been lucky that we don't have any major medical illnesses. But ask someone who was diagnosed with diabetes at a young age. There aren't any insurance companies that will take them on. We are the richest country in the world, we shouldn't be spitting on those who have had some medical illnesses in the past that are beyond their control.

I propose some reform on malpractice lawsuits. These lawsuits are out of hand and sending malpractice insurance through the roof. Fix this and doctors insurance goes down, as well as their rates, which in turn makes cheaper insurance for all of us.

These changes will help people in this country, cut down on the corruption in the healthcare industry, and offer a subsidized form of insurance to those who can't get it privately.

I live in a "third world" country; Panama. Medical care may not be free but a doctors visit for a person who is working and on Social Security is $0.50US. Hospital care is given first and payment is requested after services are rendered and rates are affordable.

Private doctors and hospitals are affordable and many people I know who moved here from the USA did so because they could no longer afford healthcare in the US. Many are retired and despite the fact they lose medicare they can still afford healthcare in Panama and not in the US with medicare.

A doctors visit here costs less than the copay on the HMO I had in the US and I actually get to see the doctor and discuss the examination.

Before we left the US our doctor closed his practice because he could no longer pay his malpractice premiums, his overhead and still have a life.

Good point. The US needs to reduce medical malpractice lawsuits.

Excellent post.

A lot of that is already covered by law in several states.

can someone offer concrete stats that proves a medical care in other countries is better than the United States?

It's called research - and each country will differ.

The basic criteria probably relates to:

(a) Accessibility to healthcare for everyone.
(b) No direct cost
(c) Pre-existing conditions do not matter
(d) Less formality and paperwork - there is no paperwork under universal healthcare - just name/ID/next of kin etc
(e) Ease at which preventative medical reveues are available - if there is no cost - why not have regular reveues. This obviously cuts down costs in the longer term.

The actual medical care - ie the actions of medical staff, is probably little different between the US and elsewhere.

So based on horrible sad story's (and I am sure there are more out there), we should go with government crutches? Is the government going to make it all better? There are horror stories in EVERYTHING. That will never change. Nothing is perfect and shit does happen that is not fair. That is just the way life is. I hate it but I can't change unfairness and cruelty of the world.

But my question is, why the fuck would anyone want the government to control anything else in their lives? LESS GOVERNMENT!

Michael Moore has a great way of showing just enough to make you think what HE WANTS you to think. There are so many government assistant programs out there it is not even funny. People just don't use them because the "headline readers" (and Michael Moore fear buying customers) say there is nothing out there for anyone and people just sit on their ass and believe that instead of going out and finding what they can do to help better their lives in any situation.

When I got into a motorcycle accident when I was in my 20's, getting away from the family and wanting to be on my own, I had no insurance and I got great medical care, plus I got assistance with the bills. I have had many friends that I have helped over the years in the same situation and got the same results.

I think once the government starts controlling that part of our lives, you will see the decrease of competition in the medical fields. Competition is great and it makes people work harder to find better cures for illnesses. That is why America leads the way in that field as well.

I can?t stand when people say out of one side of their mouth, I hate the government it is so corrupted, but out the other side of their mouth its the government should support me and pay for everything. Make up your mind, you either like the government or you don't.

The people are not stupid we can take care of ourselves and our families. And the people who are in this country who can't take care of themselves, there are several programs already out there for them. NOTHING IS PERFECT and NOTHING EVER WILL BE. People will die no matter what medical system you have in place. I would love to see Michael take his hate for America and put on England, France or Canada and I bet you anything you will see a worse more heart breaking shit story than the one he just put out on America. I can pick and choose what horror stories I want in any situation and show them to you all at one time and make you think the way I want. DON'T YOU PEOPLE SEE AND UNDERSTAND THIS FORM OF BULLSHIT? I mean come on it's so fucking obvious. It's communism 101. Control the people by installing fear. Not to mention how some of you claim to have such a deep understanding of how the government spins information, but yet you can?t see this? I believe that is selective learning, taught in most colleges today! LOL

If you let the government have any more control over you, you will fuck yourself more than you could ever image. Once they get you to depend on them for things that you can take care of yourself, it?s hard to get away from it. Look what happen with welfare. It was designed to help, but instead people took advantage of it and ended up depending on it for life and not their own ability to succeed. It keeps people down, it doesn?t help motivate them to succeed and be their best. Yes, I know there are people who do use welfare the way it should be used, to help get through a tough time and get back on their feet.

And look at Social Security. At the time it was needed, but now it is not. People depend on that money instead of planning their own retirements. See the crutch the government wants you to have so they have the power. LESS GOVERNMENT BETTER COUNTRY!!! And don't think for one second that poor old people living on Medicaid and SS are not being fucked over and scammed too. There are WAY more shit horror stories about old people suffering and dieing while under the government?s wonderful Medicaid and SS services than of no Universal Health Care.

Opportunity is everywhere in this country, ask anyone of the people who stuffed themselves in crates and boxes to get here. It?s because they want the freedom to make the choices they want in their lives and use their talents and brains to support them and become successful. They don?t come here to have another government control them. The government crutch is always introduced by the use of fear and that is Michael Moore's favorite tactic. His 911 bullshit was debunked and I am sure this movie will be brought to light as well.

I think it was France that had that huge heat wave and thousands of people died. There was no gathering of people to help each other during that heat wave, because everyone just thought their government would take care of them. That didn?t work out to well, did it?

America is America because of how Americans are, HELPFUL and GIVING! And if you can?t see that then you are blinded by your own ?headline reading? hateful agenda. And of course I will say this again because apparently this thread is filled with people who will ignore a million good situations over a thousand bad situations, NOTHING IS PERFECT, THERE WILL NEVER BE A SOCIAL UTOPIA, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE AN ASSHOLE, A LIAR, A BACK STABBER, A KILLER, A GREEDY ASSHOLE, A CORRUPT DOCTOR, EVIL PRIEST, A THOUGHTLESS HUMAN ETC.... THEY WILL ALWAYS BE EVERYWHERE and falling for more government crutches will not make those types of people go away.

Funny how everyone says America is the richest country, but in the same breath says how we need to change everything. LOL I guess if we changed everything to be more like the other countries who are NOT the richest and best then we would get better? LOL

WE ARE THE TOP BECAUSE WE HAVE A BETTER SYSTEM. I know that burns you anti-Americans but a fact is a fact. We are the best because we are not like the other countries the Michael Moore lovers of world want us to be like. And once again for all those who think too extreme, NO SYSTEM IS PREFECT!

Private hospitals don't have to treat anyone they don't want to but
any public hospital has to treat anyone who shows up !

No, that's called an opinion.

You are the 'top' because you have population of over 300 million people while the next most populous first world nation - Japan - has only 125 million, and the third most populous first world country - Germany - has only 80 million people.

You're 'top' (I'm assuming you mean richest) because you have more people paying more taxes... but you can't even provide free basic healthcare for all your citizens. What does that say about you as a nation?

I didn`t watch this movie yet.

I'm all for free market capitalism and agree that in almost every case less government is better. That said we have some social programs that do work pretty well like the fire department, police and post office. You could argue that the education system works well depending on where you live and how much effort you are willing to put into it. I think a national health care system done correctly could be a very good thing for this country. The problem is I can't imagine a day when it could actually be done correctly simply because it would require our lawmakers to stand up to the pharmaceutical companies and tell them that they can no longer ass rape the American people and it would require them to gut some programs and rethink others and I can't imagine that they would ever actually pull off such an undertaking.

But I ask you this: In a country where we are all allowed to live and pursue the American dream, is it fair that a person works hard, pays their taxes, follows the laws and does everything right as a productive, quality member of society only to lose it all because they got sick? There is a good case right in Moore's movie. A couple both worked hard and raised their family and put their kids through college and then retired and were looking forward to their retirement together when suddenly, in one year, he had three heart attacks and she got diagnosed with cancer. The insurance company didn't pay for a lot of the treatment and the co-pays for the other stuff were so high they drained every cent from their savings, lost their house and now spend pretty much every dollar on medicine and medical care to pay for their treatment. They have had to move in with their kids and live off the charity of their family. Is that fair? I know life is not fair and bad things happen to good people, but is it such an evil idea that there be some kind of a safety net to help people like this out so they don't lose everything they worked their entire lives to get?

Also, the country demands certain things of us as citizens. We have no choice (other than jail) but to pay taxes. If our government decides to get into a war our volunteer military can't handle they can draft us and send us to fight and die. We can choose not to go, but the alternative is - again - jail. They demand that we accept certain laws and rules that are there for the good of all society even though we may not personally agree with them. For example I may want to smoke a joint from time to time and it has no ill effect on me, but since others can't control themselves it is illegal and I am forced to not do as I wish because of this. Or maybe I would like to sit in my house and play a little online poker, but the government has decided that is bad for me so I can't. If the country can demand certain things of me as a citizen, is it wrong for me to ask for certain things in return?

Uh.. no. America is on top because it was essentially unscathed from the events of World War I and World War II. While our infrastructure maintained nearly completely intact, virtually the rest of the civilized world laid in ruin for over a decade. America had the natural resources to help rebuild the world, thus securing itself as an eventual super power.

We do a lot of things better than other countries, but I'm not sure if you can classify healthcare as one of them. We have much higher infant mortality rates, life expectancies, and debt from medical expenses. I am not saying we should change one way or the other here, just stating that the statistics don't match up with your statement.

High infant mortality has a huge role in life expectancy as it can skew the grids. Many people in this country don't have the money to see a doctor regularly during their pregnancy. Premature babies are up 30% since the 80's. When women aren't getting the proper care during pregnancy, they have babies that have a lot of problems. It's embarrassing that the most technologically advanced, medically advanced, and richest country in the world is behind Cuba in keeping their infants alive.

Obesity is a problem, but what if individuals saw their doctors regularly? What if they went in twice a year for physicals, were able to meet with nutritionists, and taught how to eat and live better? What if they had a doctor tell them they would die if they didn't fix things? It's no secret that lower income households are the ones that suffer worst from obesity problems.

Considering your post reads like the Republican talking points of the day, I'll assume you are a Republican. With that said, it is amazing that you are pulling out the "fear" card. You do realize that this administration has governed on nothing but fear? That the Republican party today is nothing but fear mongering? It's why I no longer support the party and am independent. I'm just amazed at someone who supports a party that has ruled on fear for the last 8 years calling out Michael Moore for doing the same.

As for that tactic being used in communism. It's used in every form of government. Our current system uses it, fascists use it, anarchists use it, socialists use it, communists use it. Fear is the easiest way of controlling people whether you want to scare them into thinking they'll be knee deep in medical bills someday or the evil-doers are coming to get them while they sleep.

And it's not 1963 anymore. The cold war is over and communism is dead. A national healthcare system is no more communist than your public library or local junior high. If you feel those using the local libraries are dirty commies, so be it, but that word really has no part in the discussion.


I also heard of this big hurricane that hit somewhere and everyone stayed and waited for the government to fix it.

Actually we don't pay a lot in taxes. 40% of our country doesn't pay a dime, and our other tax rates are fairly low compared to countries that offer health care. Take a look at France. While we'd have a sweet health care system, we'd also be dishing out 50% of our income to the government.

I think someone hacked Loryn-Adult.com GFY account.

If you had a universal healthcare system ran by the government, Doctors would no longer have to buy malpractice insurance because as government employees they would be exempt from tort claims. So you would have no malpractice lawsuits.

just had a skim through this thread, and no, just no.

americans dont have a better health system
americans dont have a better education system
americans dont have a better security system

if anything, america is 3rd world....i mean as an american child growing up do the schools make sure before they come out each one of them is an ignorant, arrogant asshole?

no ... everything is like always ....

extreme rigth, USA is the best, the rest is the shit ...

nothing to see here ....

NOTE: When people say that healthcare is free in Canada, it is not the proper term. It should be said that it is "UNIVERSAL" , meaning that without regards to your wealth, you have access to medical care .... but we do pay for it in our taxes.

theres obviously several issue here so its silly to try and paint them all with the same brush..

emergency medical care should be covered by our taxes regardless of how much money you make period. the majority of people feel this way . Its not socialism or communism its common sense.

the movie was a bit silly because the whole assumption and "take" of moore and most of the victims is that health insurance companies are there to help you. Whata silly assumption , they are there to make money just like everyone else. That being said the insurance industry in general seems to be guilty on many occasions of not living up to its promises , they should be held accountable.

I think you have to give some credit to irresponsible mothers when it comes to the increase of premature babies: drug use, alcohol, smoking.

Don't blame the health care system for chicks that would rather hit the pipe than go to the doctor.

Blame local government for that.

lol i hope that was a joke

The brainwashing machine did its job on you.

Nope thats just Baddog's clueless ignorant ass talking again.

That is exactly correct. We certainly do pay for it in our taxes and medical services plans for extended care etc.


From the World Health Organization data:

"Health care is one of the most expensive items of both nations? budgets. The U.S. government spends more per capita on health care than the government does in Canada. In 2004, the government of Canada spent $2,120 (in US dollars) per person on health care, while the United States government spent $2,724.[16]

However, U.S. government spending covers less than half of all health care costs. Private spending for health care is also far greater in the U.S. than in Canada. In Canada, an average of $917 was spent annually by individuals or private insurance companies for health care, including dental, eye care, and drugs. In the U.S., this number is $3,372.[16] In 2004, health care consumed 15.4% of U.S. annual GDP. In Canada, only 9.8% of GDP was spent on health care.[16]"

Says a lot.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/23/tro....ap/index.html

Makes Loryns post seem like even more of a joke.

US is the richest country??? Mmm.. never knew that. It sure is the leading country which is deep in debt - if that makes it "rich" so be it.

Can't see any relationship between being allegedly rich and "how we need to change everything". Doubt everyone is suggesting you change anything - just keep everything as it is if it gives more satisfaction

It is the richest country in the world. Look at GDP and other major statistics. Most countries have high debt (including everyone of the countries Moore touts in his movie). Just ask yourself where most of your porn sales come from. 99% of the people here will say the US.

In GDP per capita you run fourth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...PP)_per_capita

It is only the richest in the sense that you are the most populous first world nation.

Try looking at the one country at the top of the debt league and one which has to keep borrowing (at least currently and over the last few years) at a scale exceeding that of it's debt history over three of four decades.

What actually exists where that country has the option of paying that debt? Very little. Manufactuing ability is pityful and little chance of exporting to show a trading surplus - there has not in fact, ever been a profitable trading balance for at least two decades.

In addition, there is internal indebtedness at a level no other country has ever experience (pro rata). Overall - the whole country and it's citizens are heavily in debt.

Figures can be generated to show whatever (and they sure have been "generated"), - if the US was a business, the best option would be to shut up shop today.

Being "rich" when looking at the overall situation is certainly relative.