Another CCBill Default: CCBill Splits the Affiliate Fees, Post your Setting

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  • RyuLion
    ClubDomCash.com
    • Mar 2003
    • 32364
    #1

    Another CCBill Default: CCBill Splits the Affiliate Fees, Post your Setting

    My question is..is this gonna help you decide whether to join/push a certain program?

    This is set as Default:

    (So basically if they changed it to split the affiliate gets less commission.)

    What is your setting?
    11
    I Pay the Whole Fee
    0%
    5
    I Split the Fee with my Affiliates
    0%
    6

    Adult Biz Consultant A tech head since 1995
    Affiliate Support: Chaturbate | CCBill Live
    Tags: None
    • wehateporn
      Promoting Debate on GFY
      • Apr 2007
      • 27176
      #2
      Interesting! As an affiliate all I monitor is which programs are making me the most money (per surfer I send) and then I promote those programs the most. So if a program decides to pay less money it will have an impact on the quantity of traffic I send

        Comment

        • DirtyDanza
          Confirmed User
          • Aug 2002
          • 8375
          #3
          Why as a program should we eat the fee's that are charged to us...

          Processing fee's being added is very common in these parts...


          We just had to pay a plumber 3200 bucks and had to add 3% cause were paying by credit card...


          fact is a true 50% rev share shuold be 50% on everything including fees...

          if im at 10% fees from my billers were splitting that..


          then sharing the rest... to bitch about something like that is just retarded so if someone is at 25 bucks the fee would be 2.50 your saying a 1.25 per sale would sway you one way or the other in promoting a sponsor?
          Last edited by DirtyDanza; 01-21-2011, 09:26 AM.
          Danza Bucks is back!!!

            Comment

            • RyuLion
              ClubDomCash.com
              • Mar 2003
              • 32364
              #4
              Here's one perspective:

              The affiliate drives the traffic but the owner of the site is taking the risk, so he's going to split the fee with you. 7% x 100 adds up..

              Adult Biz Consultant A tech head since 1995
              Affiliate Support: Chaturbate | CCBill Live

                Comment

                • DigitalTheory
                  ^-^
                  • Jul 2007
                  • 1055
                  #5
                  I have been promoting sites off and on for 7-8 years now and just recently realized what the split/don't split deal was all about. I never noticed the difference between a few bucks. Half of my top sites split and the other half of those sites don't, but they are good sponsors that generate good $$$ so I wasn't gonna stop promoting them over a small fee.

                    Comment

                    • Bhunter
                      Confirmed User
                      • Dec 2006
                      • 1119
                      #6
                      When I started Godverdommecash I did what my favourite ccbill sponsors did.. we pay the fees

                        Comment

                        • RyuLion
                          ClubDomCash.com
                          • Mar 2003
                          • 32364
                          #7
                          Originally posted by Bhunter
                          When I started Godverdommecash I did what my favourite ccbill sponsors did.. we pay the fees

                          Adult Biz Consultant A tech head since 1995
                          Affiliate Support: Chaturbate | CCBill Live

                            Comment

                            • DWB
                              Registered User
                              • Jul 2003
                              • 31779
                              #8
                              I think it's fair to split with revshare.

                                Comment

                                • signupdamnit
                                  Confirmed User
                                  • Aug 2007
                                  • 6697
                                  #9
                                  Originally posted by DirtyDanza
                                  fact is a true 50% rev share shuold be 50% on everything including fees...
                                  I agree entirely. So I'm sure CCBill will set up an option to share cross sale and all upsell revenue with affiliates and then all sponsors will enable these options on their rev share programs. Then again maybe hell will freeze over first?

                                  There is a reason affiliates are leaving the business and it isn't because they are not driving revenue. It's that they are not getting an ever increasing portion of the revenue they are actually sending programs due to a number of factors. It's turning into a very poor deal to be an affiliate with your average adult program. A large portion of affiliates are too stupid to realize the various scams pulled on them but one thing even the stupidest ones understand is that their checks are getting less and less as time goes on.

                                  The reality of the situation is that most programs could offer affiliates 100% rev share under the current terms and tracking and still come out way ahead. A 7% fee is nothing compared to what the affiliate is likely sending in 2011 and not getting a cut of.
                                  Last edited by signupdamnit; 01-21-2011, 01:50 PM.

                                  You don't like my posts? Put me on ignore or fuck right off. I'll say what I want.

                                    Comment

                                    • PornoMonster
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Mar 2003
                                      • 2257
                                      #10
                                      Originally posted by signupdamnit
                                      I agree entirely. So I'm sure CCBill will set up an option to share coss sale and all upsell revenue with affiliates and then all sponsors will enable these options on their rev share programs. Then again maybe hell will freeze over first?

                                      There is a reason affiliates are leaving the business and it isn't because they are not driving revenue. It's that they are not getting an ever increasing portion of the revenue they are actually sending programs due to a number of factors. It's turning into a very poor deal to be an affiliate with your average adult program. A large portion of affiliates are too stupid to realize the various scams pulled on them but one thing even the stupidest ones understand is that their checks are getting less and less as time goes on.

                                      The reality of the situation is that most programs could offer affiliates 100% rev share under the current terms and tracking and still come out way ahead. A 7% fee is nothing compared to what the affiliate is likely sending in 2011 and not getting a cut of.

                                      The only right answer is -- Who gives you the biggest pay check for the amount of traffic you send.

                                      If I sent 100K to a sponser paying 100%
                                      and the same 100K to a sponser paying 20%.
                                      The first program only had one sale, the quit after the trail
                                      the second program had 10 sales, and every month half of the month before rebilled, I think I would take the second program.

                                      Some programs have ZERO upsells , Cross sales, and don't email the members, or even pop ups.
                                      Some programs rape the hell out of the surfer that just joined.

                                      If you want 50% of the upsell then, we should have ccbill add in a place to split hosting, design, model fees, and so on.

                                      Again you can argue this from many different angles, but it all comes down to
                                      ROI or amout made per click!

                                      Have a good day!
                                      $6 a Month 4 Blade Razors, 4 Cartridges, Includes shipping!

                                      Domains 4 Sale CashForVideos.com - Pussy.biz - FootPorn.com - SoloMovie.com - CollegeGirlCams.com - AmateurCamGirls.com - PR3 4 Letter Domain

                                        Comment

                                        • signupdamnit
                                          Confirmed User
                                          • Aug 2007
                                          • 6697
                                          #11
                                          Originally posted by PornoMonster
                                          The only right answer is -- Who gives you the biggest pay check for the amount of traffic you send.

                                          If I sent 100K to a sponser paying 100%
                                          and the same 100K to a sponser paying 20%.
                                          The first program only had one sale, the quit after the trail
                                          the second program had 10 sales, and every month half of the month before rebilled, I think I would take the second program.

                                          Some programs have ZERO upsells , Cross sales, and don't email the members, or even pop ups.
                                          Some programs rape the hell out of the surfer that just joined.

                                          If you want 50% of the upsell then, we should have ccbill add in a place to split hosting, design, model fees, and so on.

                                          Again you can argue this from many different angles, but it all comes down to
                                          ROI or amout made per click!

                                          Have a good day!
                                          On rev share it takes a while to see how rebills will go. Depending on what the sponsor does inside with the upsells it can have a serious impact on rebill rates. I'd rather work with the one who is looking to grow business together rather than the one who will look for ways to take advantage of me tomorrow. Rev share is a LONG TERM partnerhip because of the rebills so these things are more important.

                                          Let's not be naive here either. There's a reason over the years the program owners have prospered while their affiliates have been destroyed. It's because they are effectively now getting 85% of the revenue the affiliate generates as opposed to 50-60%. Between the cross sales, cam upsells in the member area, shabby tracking, mailings and these other things, that's what we have today with many programs.

                                          and I'll split your hosting and design fees, if you'll agree to split mine!

                                          You have a good weekend also.
                                          Last edited by signupdamnit; 01-21-2011, 02:06 PM.

                                          You don't like my posts? Put me on ignore or fuck right off. I'll say what I want.

                                            Comment

                                            • PornoMonster
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • Mar 2003
                                              • 2257
                                              #12
                                              Originally posted by signupdamnit
                                              On rev share it takes a while to see how rebills will go. Depending on what the sponsor does inside with the upsells it can have a serious impact on rebill rates. I'd rather work with the one who is looking to grow business together rather than the one who will look for ways to take advantage of me tomorrow. Rev share is a LONG TERM partnerhip because of the rebills so these things are more important.

                                              Let's not be naive here either. There's a reason over the years the program owners have prospered while their affiliates have been destroyed. It's because they are effectively now getting 85% of the revenue the affiliate generates as opposed to 50-60%. Between the cross sales, cam upsells in the member area, shabby tracking, mailings and these other things, that's what we have today with many programs.

                                              and I'll split your hosting and design fees, if you'll agree to split mine!

                                              You have a good weekend also.
                                              As I 100% also agree 50/50 revshare should be a strong partnership, and the program owner should try hard to keep the rebills comming in.

                                              Programs have become greedy, then it also turned into survival, with all the tubes and big programs offering everything for $1.99.

                                              I have worked for program owners, and of course I am an affiliate, so I see both sides.

                                              Again, not all programs have upsells, cross sales, and so on.


                                              Just remember you wont change how a program operates, so promote the ones you think no matter what the marketing makes you the most money.

                                              There is no answer to this, since every program has many different ways they run things, bottom line is the amount of your checks for amount of clicks sent.

                                              Oh there is a lot more bills than the few I listed, I was just giving an example.

                                              I think Program owners should be thier own best affiliate so they can see.
                                              and if affiliates think it is so easy, why not start your own program.

                                              If you are not making what you should with a program, why keep sending traffic?
                                              $6 a Month 4 Blade Razors, 4 Cartridges, Includes shipping!

                                              Domains 4 Sale CashForVideos.com - Pussy.biz - FootPorn.com - SoloMovie.com - CollegeGirlCams.com - AmateurCamGirls.com - PR3 4 Letter Domain

                                                Comment

                                                • TheDA
                                                  Confirmed User
                                                  • May 2006
                                                  • 4665
                                                  #13
                                                  Irrelevant to me. How do you know what processing rate each individual sponsor is getting charged?

                                                  Look at the bottom line at the end of the day.
                                                  Sharleen Spiteri - 1989 - In The Ass

                                                    Comment

                                                    • signupdamnit
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Aug 2007
                                                      • 6697
                                                      #14
                                                      Originally posted by PornoMonster
                                                      As I 100% also agree 50/50 revshare should be a strong partnership, and the program owner should try hard to keep the rebills comming in.

                                                      Programs have become greedy, then it also turned into survival, with all the tubes and big programs offering everything for $1.99.

                                                      I have worked for program owners, and of course I am an affiliate, so I see both sides.

                                                      Again, not all programs have upsells, cross sales, and so on.


                                                      Just remember you wont change how a program operates, so promote the ones you think no matter what the marketing makes you the most money.

                                                      There is no answer to this, since every program has many different ways they run things, bottom line is the amount of your checks for amount of clicks sent.

                                                      Oh there is a lot more bills than the few I listed, I was just giving an example.

                                                      I think Program owners should be thier own best affiliate so they can see.
                                                      and if affiliates think it is so easy, why not start your own program.

                                                      If you are not making what you should with a program, why keep sending traffic?
                                                      Good points, I agree. But part of the problem is that rev share (98% of ccbill programs are rev share) is a long term deal. I could have 100 rebills a month with a sponsor who then decides to shut down the site, start another one just like it with with a different processor, then email all the old customers I sent offering them a free month and subsequent membership to the new site for 70% of what it cost before without paying me another dime. What can I do about that? Nothing really. It's important that the people you do business with aren't scumbags and that's getting increasingly harder to avoid. I had my own program once that's how I know about the type-ins. I closed it many years ago for personal reasons and left the business for a few years.

                                                      Don't get me wrong I don't think your average program is very lucrative in 2011. Part of the reason is that affiliates are leaving left and right so the free or low cost traffic sources are disappearing. Now they actually have to be their own best affiliate or revenue will drop.

                                                      You don't like my posts? Put me on ignore or fuck right off. I'll say what I want.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • V_RocKs
                                                          Damn Right I Kiss Ass!
                                                          • Nov 2003
                                                          • 32448
                                                          #15
                                                          Like somebody said earlier. I keep track of the end result in cash. If I send you 100,000 hits I am not concerned with how much you pay per join, I only care about the end result.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • RyuLion
                                                              ClubDomCash.com
                                                              • Mar 2003
                                                              • 32364
                                                              #16
                                                              Tgif <----------

                                                              Adult Biz Consultant A tech head since 1995
                                                              Affiliate Support: Chaturbate | CCBill Live

                                                                Comment

                                                                • blackmonsters
                                                                  Making PHP work
                                                                  • Nov 2002
                                                                  • 20992
                                                                  #17
                                                                  50/50 means 50/50; which means splitting all the fees.

                                                                  But almost no sponsors make affiliates pay charge back fees.

                                                                  The CCbill option is good for affiliates because the sponsor can turn off
                                                                  the split fees and thus increase the affiliate payout.

                                                                  If CCbill advertised they process 50/50 and didn't split the fees then that
                                                                  would be bad advertising to the sponsor; wouldn't it?
                                                                  I mean, the sponsor signed up and only got 40%?
                                                                  Would that be a problem that this was not explained to the sponsor?

                                                                  The affiliate on the other hand has no complaint since they are always
                                                                  getting better than 50/50 no matter what, especially since the affiliate doesn't
                                                                  pay charge back fees.

                                                                  If affiliates really want a true 50/50 then I expect a lot of angry affiliates
                                                                  after they join a sponsor and send 2 sign ups that charge back and they
                                                                  end up owning the sponsor $30 after they are invoiced for their half of the
                                                                  charge back fees.

                                                                  This shit has been figured out over years.
                                                                  Stop un-fucking-figuring it OK!

                                                                  Your neighbor will murder you with frogs
                                                                  Click here

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • signupdamnit
                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                      • Aug 2007
                                                                      • 6697
                                                                      #18
                                                                      Originally posted by blackmonsters

                                                                      If affiliates really want a true 50/50 then I expect a lot of angry affiliates
                                                                      after they join a sponsor and send 2 sign ups that charge back and they
                                                                      end up owning the sponsor $30 after they are invoiced for their half of the
                                                                      charge back fees.

                                                                      This shit has been figured out over years.
                                                                      Stop un-fucking-figuring it OK!

                                                                      Then again what if the charge backs really only happened because of the default cross sales? It's not like the affiliate gets paid for them in the first place and they will often increase charge backs and refunds (despite what the sponsors claim)because it seems like a scam to most people not familiar with the way they work. The reason programs keep them is because often they still make more money by having them. But again the affiliate gets nothing for them so why should the affiliate pay for the higher charge backs?

                                                                      Speaking of which how much more would the average rev share affiliate be getting if they got a 50% cut of the sponsor's share of the profit from these cross sales? 10 - 15% more per month? That just goes to show you that it is as I said. Affiliates are sending revenue. They just aren't getting their cut. An extra 10% would help many an affiliate these days and on rev share it really is their money because they sent the customer. That's how rev share used to be. These days what is called rev share often is nothing close.
                                                                      Last edited by signupdamnit; 01-21-2011, 04:36 PM.

                                                                      You don't like my posts? Put me on ignore or fuck right off. I'll say what I want.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Brujah
                                                                          Beer Money Baron
                                                                          • Jan 2001
                                                                          • 22157
                                                                          #19
                                                                          Originally posted by V_RocKs
                                                                          Like somebody said earlier. I keep track of the end result in cash. If I send you 100,000 hits I am not concerned with how much you pay per join, I only care about the end result.
                                                                          This is all that should really matter.

                                                                          The affiliate should stop wasting his time being concerned about whether or not they are sharing processing fees, or getting a % of cross sells, and about what is "fair" etc... It's much better to just track your outgoing, and stick with the sponsors that you earn the most with. Always be testing.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • blackmonsters
                                                                              Making PHP work
                                                                              • Nov 2002
                                                                              • 20992
                                                                              #20
                                                                              Originally posted by signupdamnit
                                                                              Then again what if the charge backs really only happened because of the default cross sales? It's not like the affiliate gets paid for them in the first place and they will often increase charge backs and refunds (despite what the sponsors claim)because it seems like a scam to most people not familiar with the way they work. The reason programs keep them is because often they still make more money by having them. But again the affiliate gets nothing for them so why should the affiliate pay for the higher charge backs?

                                                                              Speaking of which how much more would the average rev share affiliate be getting if they got a 50% cut of the sponsor's share of the profit from these cross sales? 10 - 15% more per month? That just goes to show you that it is as I said. Affiliates are sending revenue. They just aren't getting their cut. An extra 10% would help many an affiliate these days and on rev share it really is their money because they sent the customer. That's how rev share used to be. These days what is called rev share often is nothing close.
                                                                              But as you implied/stated; the affiliates don't pay for charge backs.
                                                                              So you went in a circle on that argument.


                                                                              But affiliates only sign up to get half the sales they send to the site.
                                                                              50/50 for the initial sale does not imply 50/50 for upsales/cross sales/etc...

                                                                              If you have "mad" traffic then you can approach a sponsor with these options.

                                                                              I mean, basically people have to read the sponsor's offer.
                                                                              Some sponsors only pay $25 per sign up and no rebills.

                                                                              That is worse that 50/50 revshare with split fees in my experience.

                                                                              It's the sponsor's product, they have the right to set their own policies.
                                                                              It's our right to choose a different sponsor if we don't like the terms of another
                                                                              sponsor.

                                                                              Finally, if I found a sponsor that converted 3 times better than what I have
                                                                              now, I wouldn't give a shit what fee structure they had because I'd be making
                                                                              way more money than now.
                                                                              Last edited by blackmonsters; 01-21-2011, 05:03 PM.
                                                                              Your neighbor will murder you with frogs
                                                                              Click here

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • BFT3K
                                                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                  • Dec 2005
                                                                                  • 10764
                                                                                  #21

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • signupdamnit
                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                      • Aug 2007
                                                                                      • 6697
                                                                                      #22
                                                                                      But as you implied/stated; the affiliates don't pay for charge backs.
                                                                                      So you went in a circle on that argument.


                                                                                      But affiliates only sign up to get half the sales they send to the site.
                                                                                      50/50 for the initial sale does not imply 50/50 for upsales/cross sales/etc...
                                                                                      That crap wasn't common when rev share first started. Affiliates would have raised hell. Now programs do $1.95 trials on revshare with $40 default checked cross sales. It's taking advantage of the affiliate who is now sending you traffic for $0.96 per sale at 2011 ratios. There's less incentive to convert the customer from the trial to that site. Why? Just send them to another site and pocket all the revenue and don't split it. Or any other number of scams you can pull.

                                                                                      True it'll show in the numbers eventually but why waste all that traffic to find this out? And most affiliates don't bother paying attention that's why they do it and get away with it.

                                                                                      Originally posted by blackmonsters
                                                                                      Finally, if I found a sponsor that converted 3 times better than what I have
                                                                                      now, I wouldn't give a shit what fee structure they had because I'd be making
                                                                                      way more money than now.
                                                                                      The problem with that reasoning is they are usually the next ones to fuck you because they've demonstrated they don't give a shit about you. With PPS you take the money and run. It's no big deal. You pull links and move on. Rev share is different. Sending traffic to a revshare program is a calculated investment as well as a gamble. That's the way I look at it. Again, 98% of CCBill programs are revshare.
                                                                                      Last edited by signupdamnit; 01-21-2011, 05:20 PM.

                                                                                      You don't like my posts? Put me on ignore or fuck right off. I'll say what I want.

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • RyuLion
                                                                                          ClubDomCash.com
                                                                                          • Mar 2003
                                                                                          • 32364
                                                                                          #23
                                                                                          Originally posted by blackmonsters
                                                                                          50/50 means 50/50; which means splitting all the fees.

                                                                                          But almost no sponsors make affiliates pay charge back fees.

                                                                                          This shit has been figured out over years.
                                                                                          Stop un-fucking-figuring it OK!

                                                                                          YES but there's always new companies popping up.
                                                                                          If CCBill would tell us how many new accounts open up everyday, and don't know what they're doing..

                                                                                          Adult Biz Consultant A tech head since 1995
                                                                                          Affiliate Support: Chaturbate | CCBill Live

                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                            • blackmonsters
                                                                                              Making PHP work
                                                                                              • Nov 2002
                                                                                              • 20992
                                                                                              #24
                                                                                              Originally posted by RyuLion
                                                                                              YES but there's always new companies popping up.
                                                                                              If CCBill would tell us how many new accounts open up everyday, and don't know what they're doing..
                                                                                              If the new accounts don't know what they are doing then they will use all the
                                                                                              defaults.

                                                                                              The default is 50/50!


                                                                                              But anyhooo!

                                                                                              Who cannot figure out what's going on after a couple of sign ups?

                                                                                              And of course, this can't be figured out by people who get no sign ups.
                                                                                              And therefore the only sponsors to complain about will be those that
                                                                                              are actually converting.

                                                                                              I've got a few sponsors that could pay 50,000% revhare and I'd still
                                                                                              not make the $50 minimum payout in 2 years.
                                                                                              Your neighbor will murder you with frogs
                                                                                              Click here

                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                • RyuLion
                                                                                                  ClubDomCash.com
                                                                                                  • Mar 2003
                                                                                                  • 32364
                                                                                                  #25
                                                                                                  Good for you blackmonster.

                                                                                                  I'm heading out for some fun..

                                                                                                  Adult Biz Consultant A tech head since 1995
                                                                                                  Affiliate Support: Chaturbate | CCBill Live

                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                    • DirtyDanza
                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                      • Aug 2002
                                                                                                      • 8375
                                                                                                      #26
                                                                                                      Originally posted by signupdamnit
                                                                                                      That crap wasn't common when rev share first started. Affiliates would have raised hell. Now programs do $1.95 trials on revshare with $40 default checked cross sales. It's taking advantage of the affiliate who is now sending you traffic for $0.96 per sale at 2011 ratios. There's less incentive to convert the customer from the trial to that site. Why? Just send them to another site and pocket all the revenue and don't split it. Or any other number of scams you can pull.

                                                                                                      True it'll show in the numbers eventually but why waste all that traffic to find this out? And most affiliates don't bother paying attention that's why they do it and get away with it.



                                                                                                      The problem with that reasoning is they are usually the next ones to fuck you because they've demonstrated they don't give a shit about you. With PPS you take the money and run. It's no big deal. You pull links and move on. Rev share is different. Sending traffic to a revshare program is a calculated investment as well as a gamble. That's the way I look at it. Again, 98% of CCBill programs are revshare.


                                                                                                      no my friend thats called taking advantage of the surfer...


                                                                                                      in all honesty fuck the affiliate, fuck the program owner.. we need to make the surfer happy and thats where 98% of affilates lack.. they worried about 1.25 more rather than if the fucking surfer will ever join another site again ....


                                                                                                      piss on you paysite owners who make shitty sites with shitty bought or stolen content... I join sites on a daily basis to see what people offer inside...

                                                                                                      it's fucking garbage... non exclusive dvd rip.... who the fuck does that... anyone can go buy a dvd and make a website from the content... if your not going to shoot the content then don't have paysites be an affilaite and leave the paysites to the pro's
                                                                                                      Danza Bucks is back!!!

                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                        • signupdamnit
                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                          • Aug 2007
                                                                                                          • 6697
                                                                                                          #27
                                                                                                          Originally posted by DirtyDanza
                                                                                                          no my friend thats called taking advantage of the surfer...


                                                                                                          in all honesty fuck the affiliate, fuck the program owner.. we need to make the surfer happy and thats where 98% of affilates lack.. they worried about 1.25 more rather than if the fucking surfer will ever join another site again ....


                                                                                                          piss on you paysite owners who make shitty sites with shitty bought or stolen content... I join sites on a daily basis to see what people offer inside...

                                                                                                          it's fucking garbage... non exclusive dvd rip.... who the fuck does that... anyone can go buy a dvd and make a website from the content... if your not going to shoot the content then don't have paysites be an affilaite and leave the paysites to the pro's
                                                                                                          Can't argue with any of that. We've been fucking ourselves over the long term in many ways for far too long. Most of us aren't in this as a get rich quick scheme and we should act more like it.

                                                                                                          You don't like my posts? Put me on ignore or fuck right off. I'll say what I want.

                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                            • DirtyDanza
                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                              • Aug 2002
                                                                                                              • 8375
                                                                                                              #28
                                                                                                              Originally posted by signupdamnit
                                                                                                              Can't argue with any of that. We've been fucking ourselves over the long term in many ways for far too long. Most of us aren't in this as a get rich quick scheme and we should act more like it.
                                                                                                              agreed... 100%


                                                                                                              now how do we convince the affiliates cause they have the traffic LOL
                                                                                                              Danza Bucks is back!!!

                                                                                                                Comment

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