An Open Question To Visa, CCBill, Epoch, and SegPay - GoFuckYourself.com - Adult Webmaster Forum

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BFT3K

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#1

An Open Question To Visa, CCBill, Epoch, and SegPay

03-23-2009, 08:23 AM

Why does Visa require additional $750 Visa application fees for the same exact websites it has already approved for me through CCBill?

I am looking to add additional processors to my cascade, and now SegPay and Epoch both want $750 Visa application fees again - even though I just paid CCBill for this a few months ago.

They already approved the sites, so why do they need this $750 "application fee" over and over again?

Can someone please explain this for us. Smells kinda fishy to me...

Last edited by BFT3K; 03-23-2009, 08:28 AM.
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BFT3K

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#2

03-23-2009, 08:39 AM

Please break down the $750 Visa Application Fee for me. How much really goes to Visa, and how much goes to the processor? If the processor takes $250 (for example), then why would Visa require the $500 "application fee" over and over again? The processor is already going to take 14% to 19% of every sale. Isn't that enough?

Who is double dipping here?

Anyone? Anyone?
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#3

03-23-2009, 08:43 AM

Visa doesn't post here
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#4

03-23-2009, 08:43 AM

First!

Edit: god damnit!

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#5

03-23-2009, 08:44 AM

I've wondered this myself. Seems to be a case of double and triple dipping.

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#6

03-23-2009, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Dirty F

Visa doesn't post here

unfortunately

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BFT3K

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#7

03-23-2009, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by Dirty F

Visa doesn't post here

Okay, then how about some honest answers from CCBill, SegPay, or Epoch? They certainly post here.
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BFT3K

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#8

03-23-2009, 08:58 AM

Wow, the silence is deafening!

If this were a post about how unjust cross sales and illegal tube sites are, everyone would chime right in.

Is this question a little too touchie for everyone?

Is this another case of "Well, that's just how it has always been, so don't rock the boat"

To allow 3 processors the ability to share in all of my sales I have to first shell out $2,250.00?

Please justify this situation for us.
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#9

03-23-2009, 09:01 AM

20 minutes since your first post. Give them a bit, this is not their support forum ;))

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#10

03-23-2009, 09:02 AM

You should call and ask... the answer isn't hidden away.

VISA set the rules for the 3rd party processors. It's not the processor charging you a fee, it's VISA.

They have an approval process for each site on each processor, based on the region that it's processing in. If you don't like the rules for 3rd party processing then you will need to meet the requirements for a high risk merchant account.

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BFT3K

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#11

03-23-2009, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by Roald

20 minutes since your first post. Give them a bit, this is not their support forum ;))

Okay, that's a valid point. I will check back in a few hours to see how this question does or does not get answered.
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#12

03-23-2009, 09:06 AM

its been this way since 2002 and the reason has been posted here before many times

visa takes the fee from every IPSP that a program is registered with
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#13

03-23-2009, 09:12 AM

EU = way cheaper in the long run
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#14

03-23-2009, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by TheDoc

You should call and ask... the answer isn't hidden away.

VISA set the rules for the 3rd party processors. It's not the processor charging you a fee, it's VISA.

They have an approval process for each site on each processor, based on the region that it's processing in. If you don't like the rules for 3rd party processing then you will need to meet the requirements for a high risk merchant account.

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BFT3K

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#15

03-23-2009, 11:07 AM

Just a few years back the $750 VISA application fee was not consistent. One processor may not charge anything - another may charge $500 - another was $750, etc. That seemed strange to me right off the bat.

Now when you are "applying" for VISA approval through your primary processor they tell you there is a short wait, while VISA checks your site(s) out, before approving or rejecting your stuff. This is what they call a "VISA Application Fee". If they called it a "Pay VISA just because they say so fee" then I guess we all should just take it, or not accept VISA.

After processor number 1, the $750 "VISA Application Fee" is bullshit! They approved you once, for a fee of $750. To have to pay this fee again and again amounts to a total bullshit fee, that is either going directly to VISA as a redundant and highly suspect charge, or the payment processors are fully in on this as well - since some used to charge $500, while CCBill stuck strong at $750, leaving a questionable balance that never made any sense.

If we have to pay $750 every time we want a processor to allow us to take VISA, so that the processor can then also take 14% to 19% of all sales, while VISA then skims 1% to 3% additionally from the processor, as their credit card fee to the processor, I'd just like some honesty.

You cannot call this a VISA Application Fee. You can call it a "cost of doing business fee" or a VISA has you by the balls, so you have to pay them $750 p/processor fee" or whatever - but please stop lying about this bullshit theft fee, as it is NOT an application fee, when you have to pay it over and over again.
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#16

03-23-2009, 11:12 AM

You're asking the wrong people....

www.visa.com

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#17

03-23-2009, 11:15 AM

Timely thread. I was just today thinking about adding Epoch as a cascading biller and was wondering the exact same question. Bump for an answer although I'm pretty sure I'll be forking over $750 soon. :-(

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BFT3K

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#18

03-23-2009, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by CIVMatt

You're asking the wrong people....

www.visa.com

Okay, fair enough, but I still don't see any CCBill, Epoch, or SegPay reps providing any credible answers in here.
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BFT3K

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#19

03-23-2009, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by whatif_3

its been this way since 2002 and the reason has been posted here before many times

visa takes the fee from every IPSP that a program is registered with

So, assuming this is true, then you are saying that the payment processors are charged $750 p/site, by VISA themselves.

If that is true, what is this fee for?

This would mean that the payment processors are simply passing the buck to the webmasters to cover this "fee". But what is this "fee" for?

Let's assume then, that Processor 1 provides Visa billing for 1,000,000 sites, and Processor 2 bills for 850,000 sites, and Processor 3 bills for 900,000 sites. These are just random numbers. Maybe they are on the high side, maybe they are on the low side. I have no idea, but using those numbers, then VISA will have been paid close to $3 BILLION dollars using this $750 billing scenario - not to mention annual rebills for same.

Since 2002? That would be a huge fucking pile of cash! Cut my hypothetical site numbers down by 70%, and then add the rebills, and we are stilling discussing BILLIONS of dollars!

I'm just trying to figure this out, but it just keeps getting more confusing...
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#20

03-23-2009, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by Roald

unfortunately

fortunately

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#21

03-23-2009, 12:23 PM

The Visa registration fee is not about your sites. You can have one site or thousands of sites and the fee is the same. It doesn't matter if you have half yours sites exclusively at one biller and the rest at another or all of them with two billers in a cascade. The fees have nothing to do with sites.

The fee is to be registered at Visa with each processor. There is an initial registration fee of $750 per processor and an annual renewal of $400. The fee (at the time of this post) is only charged in the US and not for clients based in the EU.

If you use two US IPSP's then you must pay two registration fees, and each year thereafter pay two annual renewal fees.

These fees are charged by Visa and collected by the IPSP's and paid to Visa on behalf of sponsored merchants. Any billing company which claims to be able to process clients in the US without collecting registration fees is either in direct violation of Visa's rules, or, is absorbing the fees as a cost of acquiring clients. The former of which won't last long and the latter is a losing proposition.

If you cannot justify the additional sales you would gain (from using a secondary billing company in a cascade) against the amount of the fees, then adding a secondary biller may not be for you.

I hope this answers the question.

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#22

03-23-2009, 12:27 PM

Good reply Rand
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BFT3K

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#23

03-23-2009, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Rand

The Visa registration fee is not about your sites. You can have one site or thousands of sites and the fee is the same. It doesn't matter if you have half yours sites exclusively at one biller and the rest at another or all of them with two billers in a cascade. The fees have nothing to do with sites.

The fee is to be registered at Visa with each processor. There is an initial registration fee of $750 per processor and an annual renewal of $400. The fee (at the time of this post) is only charged in the US and not for clients based in the EU.

If you use two US IPSP's then you must pay two registration fees, and each year thereafter pay two annual renewal fees.

These fees are charged by Visa and collected by the IPSP's and paid to Visa on behalf of sponsored merchants. Any billing company which claims to be able to process clients in the US without collecting registration fees is either in direct violation of Visa's rules, or, is absorbing the fees as a cost of acquiring clients. The former of which won't last long and the latter is a losing proposition.

If you cannot justify the additional sales you would gain (from using a secondary billing company in a cascade) against the amount of the fees, then adding a secondary biller may not be for you.

I hope this answers the question.

Thank you for stepping up, and offering some sort of explanation. I can afford the $750. That is not the problem.. My question remains...

What is the $750 VISA fee for (the first year), and further, what is the $400 VISA rebill fee for, each year thereafter? What is the fee for? Is it just random income for VISA? What is the justification for this fee? In your answer you have avoided calling it an "application fee" which would imply an approval process, so what is the fee for?
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#24

03-23-2009, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by BFT3K

Thank you for stepping up, and offering some sort of explanation. I can afford the $750. That is not the problem.. My question remains...

What is the $750 VISA fee for (the first year), and further, what is the $400 VISA rebill fee for, each year thereafter? What is the fee for? Is it just random income for VISA? What is the justification for this fee? In your answer you have avoided calling it an "application fee" which would imply an approval process, so what is the fee for?

I suppose, as someone suggested above, that you would need to ask Visa that question. I don't know how they came up with that figure or where the money goes.

But I would suggest they do this because they actually do staff people to look at sites for compliance purposes and to read GFY.

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#25

03-23-2009, 12:50 PM

Websites were doing things visa/mc didnt want them to do, so they set up a process that if a site falls under X criteria, then they have to follow these rules/guidelines. They set up a registration fee for the extra work/resources it would take them to follow those new processes.

The rules have been around for 6+ years and they seem to be achieving what they had set out to do. They probably set it up to get paid from each processor because if a site is sent up from one processor or another, they still have to take the time to review each site individually.

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#26

03-23-2009, 12:52 PM

rand, are you going to answer the part about whether visa gets the entire 750 fee or if epoch gets any part of it?

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#27

03-23-2009, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Rand

I don't know how they came up with that figure or where the money goes.

Well, at least you are being honest. I'll hit you up soon, to add Epoch to my site for $750.

I guess this can accurately be called a "pay-to-play" fee, which we all have to accept - even though the payment processors themselves do not even know what it is for.

Crazy stuff!
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#28

03-23-2009, 01:07 PM

Often they will wave the fee to get your business. If your site(s) don't suck.
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#29

03-23-2009, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by webmasterchecks

Websites were doing things visa/mc didnt want them to do, so they set up a process that if a site falls under X criteria, then they have to follow these rules/guidelines. They set up a registration fee for the extra work/resources it would take them to follow those new processes.

The rules have been around for 6+ years and they seem to be achieving what they had set out to do. They probably set it up to get paid from each processor because if a site is sent up from one processor or another, they still have to take the time to review each site individually.

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#30

03-23-2009, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by V_RocKs

Often they will wave the fee to get your business. If your site(s) don't suck.

Translation: As long as your sales are very high they may wave the fee.

To eat $750 in exchange for your business at 15%, they would need to bill $5,000 on your behalf, just to break even. As your second or third processor that is not easy in the short term, unless you are doing pretty well, with a good sales history.

I am still a small start-up gearing up for my first affiliate program, so I would be too small to get a waive on these fees.
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#31

03-23-2009, 02:16 PM

cascade billing is overrated anyways,

for increasing sales that is

if your just trying to spread your eggs out into several baskets, then that's different, (also not foolproof)
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#32

03-23-2009, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by BV

cascade billing is overrated anyways,

for increasing sales that is

if your just trying to spread your eggs out into several baskets, then that's different, (also not foolproof)

I'm not sure what it's all about either, but from I've been told, it is important to have at least two processors. In case one of the two is scrubbing hard, or in case one is temporarily down or inaccessible for any of a million reasons. Anyone else have an opinion on this? How about a sales rep's two cents?
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#33

03-24-2009, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by SteveHardeman

Timely thread. I was just today thinking about adding Epoch as a cascading biller and was wondering the exact same question. Bump for an answer although I'm pretty sure I'll be forking over $750 soon. :-(

Looks like the $750 p/processor is unavoidable, unless you are showing very high sales numbers.
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#34

09-02-2009, 02:56 PM

If you know how to code you can always use PayPal. Their fees are around 3% + $0.30 USD. They even pay you interest on your monthly balance. Buyers don't need an account to pay, they accept credit/debit card (Visa, MasterCard, American Express, and Discover). Easy to setup if you can code (I use php + mysql).

Otherwise you're gonna pay $750 or whatever the other sites will charge you for them to have it for you. But it is avoidable.
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#35

09-02-2009, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Gorak

If you know how to code you can always use PayPal. Their fees are around 3% + $0.30 USD. They even pay you interest on your monthly balance. Buyers don't need an account to pay, they accept credit/debit card (Visa, MasterCard, American Express, and Discover). Easy to setup if you can code (I use php + mysql).

Otherwise you're gonna pay $750 or whatever the other sites will charge you for them to have it for you. But it is avoidable.

Using PayPal with adult is ... not advisable.

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#36

09-02-2009, 03:10 PM

That is true and I also read stories about them and chargebacks so beware.
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#37

09-02-2009, 06:03 PM

I had an attorney contact me about the VISA fee claiming that it was an easy class action lawsuit, and very winnable. The guy teaches business law at a big college and is a very well thought of attorney in his field. Im not the lawsuit happy type but I always wondered just how kosher that fee is to begin with.

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#38

09-02-2009, 06:19 PM

Zombaio doesnt charge the $750 for US customers. wonder how they pull off that magic....

Last edited by Joshua G; 09-02-2009, 06:20 PM.
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#39

09-02-2009, 07:59 PM

If you had your own merchant account, you only pay the fee once, regardless of how processors you use. Let me know if you are interested in saving some $$$ in the long run and having more control over your business.

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#40

09-02-2009, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by Gorak

If you know how to code you can always use PayPal. Their fees are around 3% + $0.30 USD. They even pay you interest on your monthly balance. Buyers don't need an account to pay, they accept credit/debit card (Visa, MasterCard, American Express, and Discover). Easy to setup if you can code (I use php + mysql).

Otherwise you're gonna pay $750 or whatever the other sites will charge you for them to have it for you. But it is avoidable.

Please do not post shit like that before doing real research..

Welcome to the board though.

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#41

09-03-2009, 03:40 AM

Originally posted by joshgirls

Zombaio doesnt charge the $750 for US customers. wonder how they pull off that magic....

Ask Globill.
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#42

09-03-2009, 04:05 AM

Originally posted by Gorak

If you know how to code you can always use PayPal.

Very very very bad idea for an adult site.

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#43

09-03-2009, 04:17 AM

Originally posted by Zombaio_Tomas

It's the acquirer that charge the fees from the IPSP to cover the cost for adding the site to G2 monitoring programs (scan for child abuse etc). If the business case with the IPSP or Merchant is good enough for the acquirer, they can choose to not charge the fee.

Zombaio does NOT charge this fee.

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#44

03-25-2010, 02:41 AM

Originally posted by BFT3K

Why does Visa require additional $750 Visa application fees for the same exact websites it has already approved for me through CCBill?

I am looking to add additional processors to my cascade, and now SegPay and Epoch both want $750 Visa application fees again - even though I just paid CCBill for this a few months ago.

They already approved the sites, so why do they need this $750 "application fee" over and over again?

Can someone please explain this for us. Smells kinda fishy to me...

The way to go is with EU bank .. with them you only pay fees to Mastercard .. not VIsa.

May

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#45

03-25-2010, 03:13 AM

I am kinda shocked there are still people NOT doing cascading? How long have CCBill and Epoch been playing nicely with this 2 years? 3?

You will add at least 10% to your bottom line OVERNIGHT.

Look at it this way. CCBill has their own proprietary scrub. So does Epoch. They are different. Each one will refuse x % of your valid sales. So if you cannot offer that valid card an alternate biller, they are a lost sale.

For one of my clients Epoch is secondary and adds around 30% to the bottom line as it appears they process rebills much better than ccbill.
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#46

09-22-2010, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by Gorak

If you know how to code you can always use PayPal. Their fees are around 3% + $0.30 USD. They even pay you interest on your monthly balance. Buyers don't need an account to pay, they accept credit/debit card (Visa, MasterCard, American Express, and Discover). Easy to setup if you can code (I use php + mysql).

Otherwise you're gonna pay $750 or whatever the other sites will charge you for them to have it for you. But it is avoidable.

I wouldn't say that too loud, or you won't be accepting PayPal for adult subscriptions for much longer

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#47

09-22-2010, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

Ask Globill.

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#48

09-22-2010, 08:40 AM

This thread is very old, but the initial question is still a valid one.
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#49

09-22-2010, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by Netpay-International

The way to go is with EU bank .. with them you only pay fees to Mastercard .. not VIsa.

May

Great job of digging up old thread to spam in!

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#50

09-22-2010, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by BFT3K

After processor number 1, the $750 "VISA Application Fee" is bullshit! They approved you once, for a fee of $750. To have to pay this fee again and again amounts to a total bullshit fee ... a VISA has you by the balls, so you have to pay them $750 p/processor fee"

I'm led to believe that the fee only applies to U.S. merchants as well
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