Should thumb cropping to imply underage girls be illegal?

Anime is just a weird niche I've never considered promoting,if it doesn't turn me on I don't bother .Scat..too fucking sick for me.Beasty,rape sites should be illegal.I like the braces and schoolgirl look and just like anything else..it's a fantasy.It's all a matter of marketing and enticing the surfer to click your thumbs..borderline thumbs are just one of them.

No need to apologize. You produce what the market wants and do it better than anyone - and you don't cross any lines IMO.

In my previous posts, my attacks were never aimed at you (I should have clarified that). They were aimed at programs like Teen Revenue - they thrive on the young theme.

Slicks business model as I see it:

1. Make thumbnails that represent sponsor models as blatently underage.
His defense? "The thumbs are cropped automatically... Yada Yada" Yeah, right... Amazing how that auto-cropper finds the part of the image to create the youngest possible impression!

2. Trade with sites that feature underage nudes.
His defense? I don't have any control over what traders put there... Oh, yeah, right- a whole bunch of your trades feature nude children and you don't notice?

3. Blur the distinction between promoting a sponsor and promoting trades.
He's promoting them in the same way- via a big thumbnail. Click the thumb to go there and see more. I know this is typical of TGPs, but if you do that you can't claim (as he has) that "all his sponsors are clean" and ignore the fact that so many of his trades are dirty! He promotes sponsors for money, he promotes trades for traffic, and traffic = money. It's one step from being exactly the same.

4. Don't bother to put up a 2257 statement. Don't put a prominent notice saying that all models are over the age of 18.
Jesus Christ! Along with ICRA and RTA labelling, these are the FIRST thing I do with any of my sites! And I imagine most others do this immediately!

5. Choose domain names that imply models are underage and/or the site content is "illegal".

Slick's BUSINESS MODEL is an attempt to cash in on pedo-searching surfers. Legal? Maybe. Wrong? Yes. Distasteful and bad for the industry? Absolutely. It's not just a site design or a particular aspect of his business that was in this direction, it was the ENTIRE BUSINESS!

And it's sooooo far from ANYTHING you are doing, Steve. You don't get there solely by cropping one of your photos in a way like you did.

maybe one day you will learn to appreciate and respect the opinions and views of others... even if you don't agree with them. thats a big part of what being American was supposed to be.

Well at least we lasted until page 2 for the directNIC/Slick shit to come into play.

YES IT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL...

It is not a question of whethe ror not a child is being harmed, it is a question of what is being promoted by the content. Which is clearly hardcore sex with obscenely young girls. There is absolutely nothing positive I can think of which would come form content like this...

so if you make it illegal.. how do you then decide what a legal thumbnail is and an illegal thumbnail is? who will decide that for you?

You are right. Post turned out a total other way as I meant it... but nevermind.

good point.. awaiting retort.....

Honestly it's all in the eye of the beholder.. I work with teen sites everyday. So I can just about tell you who the girl is or what site it came from when dealing in the teen niche, just by looking at the thumbs.

If you don't deal in the teen niche everyday, then you would more likely think a 18 year old girl is younger. Yet someone that does work with it would know she's not.

The same goes for the surfers.. Surfers that are into teen girls know a 23 year old isn't a teen. So if you want to make money you need real teen content. Now that doesn't mean you are catering to pedo's anymore than a throat gagging sites is catering to rapists.

Each are their own niches and people looking at something they don't know will easily jump to conclusions that typically aren't right. The biggest difference today, is "porn" has become more mainstream and it's "cool". So it's much more likely real 18 year old girls will pose nude or do hardcore.

So because of that, customers expect real teens in the 18-22 range and not the typical 25 year old girls that the industry had to pass as teens for so long.

Posting a thumb of a 18 yearold model who has boobs the size of nickles and braces with a younger looking face shouldn't be illegal.

We can argue "looks like" compared to "legal" all we want, but the truth of the matter is the more we have girls that look underage in this industry, regardless of whether they are legal or not, brings heat on this entire industry by the moral majority.

I think the point Aric was trying to make Steve is that if there is an 18 year old girl you are shooting, that by nature looked 15 or 16 and you go out of your way to make her appear even younger...then that is getting into a dangerous area.

We have all seen the content...barely legal girls in rooms that look like a 9 year old lives in it. Carebear comforters and teddy bears all over the place. They are playing with dolls and are usually wearing a very child like dress with their hair in pigtails, fake braces and a sucker.

Shooting an 18 year old that looks 15 is far different, than taking that same girl and trying to make her look nine to attract pedo's.

Girls that look 12, even if they are legal draw the wrong kind of attention in this industry and makes it more difficult for all of us. We will look like the crooks and the bad guys and we get the bad press. Sort of like a guy accused of rape...he may be found not guilty, but he will be forever be known as the rapist to the vast majority.

When we post girls who are 18 but are made to look 12, we can sugar coat it all we want, we can talk about movies, we can talk about the fact she actually IS legal, we can say what we want...but in the end we are marketing to individuals who are looking for a girl that looks 12 and as a parent, that scares the shit out of me.


NOTE: The term *you* does not mean any individual

to clarify, i wasn't refferinf th cropped teen thumbnails, but the anime sites which depict pedo related material. how young could you possibly manipulate jordan capri to look? 14-15 MAYBE, if you really crop her well, and anyone with half a brain can tell she's 18 when they get a good view of her. i don't want to have to go dig up links to prove what i'm talking about, go look for yourself on ANY hentai tgp, start clicking thumbnails ad seeing what sort of thumbs are on the traffic traded sites. guarenteed within 5 or 6 clicks out to other tgps you will find thumbs that are obvious depictions of full grown men pounding into girls that look like they're 5. i do think there should be some law in place combatting this, just becaus eno one was harmed in real life doesn't make it any less damaging. it is promoting pedophilia...

the fact that it is so hard to find animated content which doesn't either conflict with my opinions on what can be promoted without worry almost has me considering just selling off my hentai blog and moving onto other niches...

very well put...

Ok but the surfer loving the 18-22 teens can be attracted with a thum of a girl that looks like 18-22 I assume.


Nah you can't make it illegal probably but there is a way to make people stop doing it: sponsors taking taking their responsibility. I'm not saying every single badly cropped thumb should put a ban on an affiliates account. But whats the point of accepting traffic from sites that are filled with thumbs specially cropped to make it look like cp? They aren't looking for the 18-22 year old that they find on your paysite, that surfer is looking for the 15yo girl from the thumb.

and .. that to me is the problem. the perception of those people who view the site... think they are looking at underage girls, who fear for the safety of children, who think every teen girl is exploited or think 1/2 the site is CP and so on. the truth of the matter is that its to those people that you have to answer to in the end (albeit indirectly) because they are the ones driving legislation or that politicians are pandering to.

i have yet to hear one single rational, reasonable or factual debate on the issue on Capital Hill on pornography. the debates always state or imply that all pornographers sell CP, profit from CP directly and indirectly, that its addictive, that it ruins marriages and so on. its the perception of those people and the mothers and religious freaks that are the problem... not what a surfer thinks.

personally, i would prefer that a middle aged man was masturbating to what he thought was a 13 yr old girl... than to see his van parked across the street from the school.

I'm not getting into the CP debate, but I will comment on your pics. You say that it's been cropped to make it look like CP...but I don't see it. When I look at that last thumb, I see Taylor standing closer to the cam than Jordan...who is shorter in the first place. To me it's a depth perception thing, not anything else.

Totally agree wyldblyss.

It's a choice of being in the "pedo entertainment industry" or the "adult entertainment industry" and does not matter a damn what the images are (assuming they are legal) - it's what you do with them. Enter the realm of "legal pedo sites" (with an 18+ sticker of course). Crap never ends - till they are thumped in court

So what's the difference in perception of the gagging sites? Some people might think that's pretty sick shit. Some people might think facials are pretty sick shit.. Hell some people might think Bang Bus is real and that the girls got ripped off.

That's why you can't make "perception" illegal, because everyone's perception is different. The content is either legal or it's not. There shouldn't be a "legal" grey area because that because dangerous for us all.

However it's up to us to decide what and who we work with. Personally I run teen sites, but I won't trade with guys that I can tell are going out of their way to make the girls look too young. So don't think I don't agree that it shouldn't happen.

The sites might be legal but I choose not to trade with those kinda sites. When I crop thumbs I don't try to make the girls look underage. However again that's all in the eye of the beholder because someone might come along and think my thumbs look too young. So with that in mind DN shouldn't have killed the sites based on the look of the thumbnails. They should have told him to move the domains or take it up with the proper channels.

So that's why I think what DN did was wrong. Because even thou I might think his thumbs were in bad taste, I know the girls were legit content from legit sponsors.

its a matter of context, someone sticks that thumbnail on littlegirlsexpictures.com or some shit like that and it can be taken in a totally different light.


as for the comparison of throat gagging to rape, i never saw a throat gaging or hardcore deepthroat site where the girls appeared to be resisting any, the all appear to be consenting, simulated rap sex site so the other hard are questionable.

if the act itself is illegal, be it sex with minors, incest, rape, or whatever, then a simulated version of the same act shouldn't be any more legally permissible in my opinion. it is doing nothing more than promoting the act by being there, and allowing it under the protection of free speech is nothing more than a cheap cover...

what looks worse on our industry, young looking yet legal and consenting 18 year old girls, which are clearly advertised as being consenting and of age, or sites promoting simulated illegal acts?

this whole subject is such a gray area. i'd hate to set a precident of outlawing gray-area adult content or fighting free speach, but there are just some things that go beyond being reasonable, and NEED action to be taken against. to protect us all in the long run.

Have your 2257 records handy. Cops will arrest then ask questions later.
Oh, Oral sex is a crime in AZ. one of those old laws that
are still around to fuck people!

How many brutal bloody murders have you seen in TV shows and movies? Isn't murder illegal? Why is it ok to portray "pretend murder"?

I wanna see your hands!!

i think we are misunderstanding each other. you simply asked "whats the difference between the two" and i was talking about why one generally gets far more heat than the other. otherwise, i dont saw where we disagree as i have already stated again and again that the law should be the final word.

however, when people open a tgp and are suddenly thinking "wow.. these girls all look 13" i am saying that regardless of the law, its a very reasonable thing to expect problems and to expect to become a target. right or wrong... thats whats to be expected.

So not trying to defend the stuff.. But what about shows on TV that show people taking drugs or killing people? If you take a stand on one thing you never know where it will end.

IMO if the content is legal it's legal but if someone presents it in a distasteful manor it's my choice not to do business or trade with them. However if you start making things illegal because it appears it might be, then we find ourselves on a very slippery slide. Because then it becomes more of a "thought police" issue rather than a real is it legal or not issue. Then we find our selves in the dangerous area of obscenity and "community standards" meaning anyone could have different thoughts on a specific image.

I never said all the fingers were on the same hand!

But I'll show you my cellphone....

i think the primary difference there is that anything other than pornography is usually agressively defended as "free speech"... and pornography is generally so taboo and stigmatized in our culture that no one will defend it at all... and there is nothing for the average person to gain in defending it and nothing to gain politically in defending it.

thats not only the case in the US.. that particular exception is common almost everywhere to one degree or another.

Because most people understand that movies and tv shows aren't real. Although it's make belief people know it's not real, when you crop a thumb to look like a 12 year old most people will think it's real. (often with the truth being revealed as soon as they click that thumb but alot of people will not click it and leave with the 'internetporn is full of cp"-feeling.)

without wording saying she is underage, i wouldn't say that looks underage or wrong....just a shitty angle (the example's given in post #1).....but i agree about the hello kitty underoos and fake braces to make them look young on purpose being too much....

why do you get sensitive about it?

define "used up"?
are you implying girls over 19 are used up?
(i say this only because your in the teen niche and youre comment comes off that way)

whats an 18 yr old supossed to look like?

well ill take a stab

the majority of girls i have met or know who are 18 and 19 dont want to look like teeneagers, act like teenagers, want to be teenagers or be younger but want to look, act and be older -

people call shit on what they see and whats perceived man - and youre right, its grey, so dont be pissed off IF the finger points at you (we all know youre above board, so dont think im implying that your not) - you cant deny that a majority in the niche play with fire in regards to perception and use of the word "teen" and since youre part of that niche your included wether you like or or not - guilt by association, yea its a bitch but its the reality.

Really? I know several girls...no, let me correct that....women that wear Hello Kitty underoos. One of them is a very well known porn star who couldn't even come close to being mistaken for under 18.

I don't think any of us disagree here. TV shows and movies have credits at the end, saying who wrote the story, who directed it, who the actors were. Should we add credits at the end of a violent throat gag scene just to be safe? How about "The story of Tawnee Stone was written and directed by Steve Lightspeed"

i don't think that chicks shouldn't be able to wear them (i am rolling spiderman right now ;))..........but setting up fantasy rooms with toys and childrens themes to film scenes is wrong in my book.........hope that makes more sense

i don't think they should be charged for cropping, click thumb and you see reality of it anyway.

Because I find child porn deplorable too, I want no association.


Haven't you seen images of 30 year old models with pigtails and teddy bears? Do those look "fresh" to you?

Like I said, I've been accused in the past of making 18 year old girls look younger, and I listened to the criticism and decided that they had a point, so I changed my guidelines regarding our sets and our photographer's shooting styles. A healthy company can adapt to the current environment, and WE DID.

We don't use the word "teen" in our domains, btw, expect the number "18"

Yeah, it does, and I wasn't trying to come off like an ass to you. It's just that this whole thing is getting out of hand. I honest to God am getting out of adult (again) because I am afraid to promote the girls that I have been promoting from day one. Lightspeed Girls, Josie Junior, Chloe18, etc. all could look underage to someone...and with no way to obtain 2257's on them...I'm afraid to promote them. This is ridiculous! They are all over 18...hell, I think Chloe is actually 25, isn't she? But since they could look younger...I don't feel safe promoting them.

What a wonderful fucking world we live in!

WOW, you're really dillusional there. Boy, for someone that has no fucking idea who I am or how long I've been around, you sure think you know a lot about me. I don't even know why some people are allowed to post on this board.

Let's get to your comments -

1 - I use an auto-cropping thumb script, it's plain and simple. I used to do each and ever thumb on my pages which was a pain in the ass. It took a hell of a lot of time and I could only do a fraction of the work that the script can do. Why would I want to designate 95% of my work time to cropping thumbs by hand when the script does many times the work that I could ever do by taking no time at all. I just compile a list of my latest hosted galleries and pop them in, it's that easy.

I challenge you to go to one of my pages, save a thumbnail of a few of my images and compare them to their full sized images in the galleries. I'd bet my life on it that the crops are identical. If you prove me otherwise, I'll close down my sites for ever.

2 - About my trades, I didn't say I have no control over my trades that I just activate them and let them go. If you looked at every one of my statements when it comes to trading, you'd see that I do look over the trades, check to see where the site sends the traffic and if they look shady I do a Google on them or check boards like AskDamage.com Once their activated, weeks or months later, I don't have any control over what happens if the site changes their format. In addition to that. I challenged people in another thread to ICQ or email me sites that I trade with that show child porn. Ya know what, I never got one email or ICQ about it, so I guess that nobody can find any.

Maybe after all this ordeal, I might hire someone to manage the trades, someone that's more of an expert when it comes to picking out traders that are no good.

I've gotten to where I am today by being nice to people, no matter what the size of their site and it's paid off because not only have I became friends with lots of great people, but I also helped them get established in this biz. I could be a dick like some other big sites and just turn any site that I didn't recognize away, but that's just not who I am. Sure, it opens me up for the chance of someone trying to fuck me over, but I'm helping people, and they never forget that. Look at the support I got in my time of need. It's not because I'm a prick.

3 - Your point about trades and skimming. Well, it's a tough business, you need traffic to make money. In a perfect world, I'd send to galleries 90%+, but as a lot of people that have tried that know, you just can't grow a site like that. Sure, there's a couple of sites like Mad Thumbs that have managed to build up a pile of bookmarkers over time. I've actually been working on getting my skims up, one of my new upcoming sites, I plan on giving it a nice high skim to galleries. I'm feeding it now to build up some bookmarkers for a while, then I'll launch it and see what happens.

4 - My 2257 documents. I'll admit it, they're not the most complete documents. I guess that's something that I have to get cracking on, you've got me there. They're on my list of things to do.

5 - I choose domains that imply underage or illegal content ??? WTF are you smoking ??? Let's see my domains, I have Slick Galleries, Amateur Curves, Thong Dreams, Extreme Pink, Gods Thumbs, Tasty Teen Lesbians, Sex Farmer, Skankster, Doctor Slick, Naughty Thoughts, Sex Rancher, Jizz Wizard WOW, ALL of my domains aim towards underage girls. I guess you're right there, dumb ass. I guess that perhpas Filthy Brats might be considered by some, but I see it as a teen site. Then there's Horny Teddy. Someone on this board was selling that domain. I myself am always looking for a new domain to base a toon or character around, so I keep my eyes peeled and when I saw Horny Teddy, I thought, wow, there's a great toon idea. My designer come up with the idea to have teddy bear pulling down a girl's panties. Did ya notice the toon, it's NOT a young looking girl that he's pulling the panties off of.

Let's break down your agrument now. I guess that even if I gave you the Teddy domain along with the Filthy Brats domain, that's 2 outta 16 domains that you think could be offensive. Fuck, I'll even throw in Naughty Thoughts for ya to, that's 3 outta 16 domains. Hardly enough to say I buy my domains to aim towards underage girls.

Everyone is sooooo quick to cry child porn nowadays. I just don't know what it is. Sure we need to be on high alert for child porn, but not get a fucking lynch mob out for any crop that makes a girl look younger than she might be. Why don't people take the time to click into the gallery and see the sponsors behind the images, they're from a lot of the same sponsors that post on this board. I've been in this biz for MANY years. All of the money I make, I make from my sites. I have a wife, 3 kids, 2 pets, a beautiful house, 2 vehicles. Do you think that I'd honestely push child porn and risk losing all of that, going to jail why the wife is left to pick up the pieces ????? FUCK NO.

For all of the threads out there that involved me, I actually made a challenge to people to not only point out my trades that have child porn, but to actually show me which galleries on my pages are child porn. You know what ?????? not one person contacted me to point out anything. Go figure that out.

steve

first dont take what i said as an attack or criticism - im just enagaging you in a conversation thats all - youre one of the tops guys in the niche and your insight is what im interested in and respect that you have made changes in your company ect. but gotta say 18 or teen same shit different dog.


30 yr olds dont pass as 18 yrs olds, everyone agrees - thats not what i asked you.

I asked what your definition of used up is.


you didnt adress my answer to your statement of what an 18 yr old should look like.

id like to hear your answer to your own question.

Wooops, double post

I have no (and never have had) respect for people who promote sites that promote girls who are 18 but look 15. It's their choice, and it may be legal, but the guys beating off to and chatting with her are imagining a 15 year old girl blowing them. It is absolutely catering to pedophiles and it's wrong even if it's legal.

I absolutely think the same thing goes for abusive content, sure the content *may* be legal, but what kind of sick fuck beats off to a girl being choked "fantasy raped" and then vomiting on herself while being called a "piece of shit"?

While I would like to say that I think it's bad for business, I think it's the exact opposite... please keep promoting "racey", "questionable" and "debatable" content... cause those debates and practices keep the government less interested in whether my more clearly "of age" and "non-extreme" content is worth their time...

I'll let other people fight the battle. If you keep pushing the envelope, the envelope will eventually push back... and if your focus is on barely legal girls... it's only a matter of time til one of those girls "isn't" barely legal.

perfect example:

which "reputable" sponsor does this picture belong to?

wouldn't hold it against you even if you were being an ass .....it's a touchy subject which envokes strong feelings as it should....also nothing wrong with distancing yourself from something you feel is borderline......shit is crazy right now, proly better to be safe than bubba's sell mate......

Sooooo...you don't respect yourself? Pic taken right from a QuickBucks site...




Pigtails...check! Teddy Bear....check! Looks to me like the first and last girl are being made to look pretty damn young there.

there is a difference when a girl is 29 and an attempt is made to pass her off as 19 and a girl who is 18, looks younger than 18 and is then made to look much much younger on top of that.

I don't take offense to anything posted on a Friday night at 11pm... now, had you posted that at Noon on Tuesday, that's completely different...

Of course, I'm just kidding. I think the people IN OUR INDUSTRY need to define some CLEAR and REASONABLE best practices, before someone ELSE does it for us. Debating the issues intelligently will never offend me.

Steve Lightspeed

ya, lol, topanga looks young, but hell, i know girls who are 20-21 who don't look a whole lot different. like i said,i think there's far worse than young looking 18 year olds out there, but that is just my opinion. it is all such a grey area its hard to debate, even my own opinions contradict themselves at points as to what should be let go and what shouldn't. like i personally don't think girls should be sold as being underage, but at the same time i know fully that topanga is 18, i think she's cute as hell, and have no problem promoting her, even though she does have a young look. the arguement that girls never want to look younger isn't applicable, because i know PLENTY of girls my own age who rock the 'i'm sweet and innocent' look. i got a 20 year old stepsister who does it all the time...

/me shrugs

the whole arguement could go back and forth for ages, lol...

Then it goes back to what they "look" like. Listen, I know 17 year olds that look 25 and 25 year olds that look 17...so why the hell does the way they "look" make a damn bit of difference? Bottom line...legal is legal. If the girl is 18 I shouldn't have to be afraid to promote her, whether she's wearing a business suit or a schoolgirl outfit.

i have always said "legal is legal" as well. however, that doesn't change the fact that making a very young looking girl look younger, puts you directly in the firing line... the girls on that quickbuck site don't look remotely close to underage.

And the sad part is, it will. And you know what's worse? You know who's gonna get screwed when the dust clears? Honest adult webmasters like us, that's who! The scum that's really promoting CP will continue to hide in the shadows, in foreign countries, wherever maggots like that are...and they will survive.

interesting post by veterans of the game..... where everyone got involved and said their point of viewz.....very nice........as for me .....can i see your license pls