Canadian Income Trusts = Money down the toilet

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  • ElvisManson
    Looking California
    • Feb 2001
    • 5476

    #1

    Canadian Income Trusts = Money down the toilet

    bad day for anyone with money in income trusts.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...M&refer=canada


    Canada's Income Trusts, BCE, Plunge on New Taxes

    By Theophilos Argitis

    Nov. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Shares of Canadian income trusts plunged, wiping out more than C$20 billion ($18 billion) in market value, after the government said it plans to tax the high-yield securities for the first time. BCE Inc., which planned to convert to a trust, had its biggest drop in 23 years.

    Finance Minister Jim Flaherty said late yesterday he will also raise dividend tax rates for pension funds and foreign investors that own trusts. The changes would go into effect next year for new trusts, while existing securities will be exempt until 2011.

    ``We expected the market to be down and dirty on this -- and it is,'' said John Priestman, who runs about $5.3 billion in income trusts for Guardian Group of Funds in Toronto.

    Montreal-based BCE, Canada's biggest phone company, fell C$3.49, or 11 percent, to C$28.21, at 10:46 a.m. on the Toronto Stock Exchange. The shares earlier fell as much as 14 percent, the biggest drop since the company was created in 1983. Vancouver-based Telus Corp., another trust conversion candidate, fell C$9, or 14 percent, to C$55.93.

    The Canadian dollar had its biggest decline in two months as foreign investors unloaded their trusts. The S&P/TSX Capped Income Trust fell as much as 13 percent, the most since it was launched in 2002. Real Estate Investment Trusts, or REITs, were little changed as they were exempt from the tax changes.

    Sector Growth

    The measures threaten to shut down the fastest growing segment of the Toronto Stock Exchange, and may halt some of the C$70 billion in new trust conversions announced in recent weeks by firms such as BCE. The number of trusts in Canada has tripled to about 250, and their market value has soared 20-fold in six years to C$200 billion after firms were attracted to the tax breaks.

    The decisions in recent weeks by BCE and Telus, Canada's two biggest phone companies, to become trusts may have forced the government's hand. These two firms alone would have increased the market value of trusts by C$50 billion, boosting the government's tax losses from trusts to C$800 million a year. Trusts avoid most corporate taxes by paying out their cash flow to investors in monthly dividends.

    The tax measures are ``clearly disappointing,'' said BCE CEO Michael Sabia, on a conference call today. He said BCE is reviewing its conversion plans.

    Flaherty ``is essentially shutting the sector down,'' said David Wolf, chief strategist at Merrill Lynch & Co. in Toronto. ``This will resonate cruelly through the Canadian income trust market.'

    Surprise Move

    The tax measures caught many income trust executives and investors off guard, as they expected the minority government would be unwilling to make such an unpopular change until after the next election.

    ``Things changed a great deal this year and we're faced with a situation where Canada was moving to an income trust economy,'' Flaherty told reporters in Ottawa last night. ``For months there has been a growing trend toward corporate tax avoidance.''

    BCE, Canada's biggest phone company, has gained 15 percent over the past two months as investors anticipated a switch to the structure. The company announced plans to convert its Bell Canada unit to a trust on Oct. 11. Flaherty said the structure isn't ``suitable'' for phone companies.

    ``The government had to address the problem sooner or later,'' said Denis Durand, a senior partner at Jarislowsky Fraser Ltd. in Montreal, which oversees C$58.5 billion, and is ``marginally'' invested in income trusts. ``There was a concern that too many unsuitable companies and industries would try to convert and that would affect the reinvestment process.''

    More Coming

    Other companies that have announced plans to take advantage of the income trust structure include Dundee Wealth Management Inc., an asset-management firm, that plans to sell a minority stake in its Goodman & Co. mutual fund arm through an initial public offering of trust units. Dundee said it's reviewing the IPO plans.

    ``We knew there were more coming,'' Flaherty said, adding he's following moves by governments in Australia and the U.S. to curb growth in these securities. ``It's absolutely necessary to act on this issue in the interest of fairness.''

    Income trusts fell because the increased taxes on payouts make them less attractive for investors. Until this year, the returns for the S&P/TSX Capped Income Trust Index, including dividends, have topped the benchmark S&P/TSX index each year since 1999.

    The announcement ``is going to deliver some pretty nasty re-evaluations of all the trusts,'' Marcel Coutu, chief executive of Canadian Oil Sands, said in a telephone interview. ``We'll certainly be thinking about how it impacts us and how the trust sector is going to evolve from here.''

    Corporate Taxes

    The government plans to tax trusts in much the same way it taxes corporations. As a result, trusts will no longer be allowed to deduct for income taxes the payouts they make to shareholders. Income will then be taxed at a rate of 31.5 percent by 2011, the finance department said in a statement yesterday.

    The changes will effectively raise the tax rates for investors in tax-sheltered retirement accounts, pension funds, and for U.S. investors. The U.S. shareholders, who pay a 15 percent withholding tax on their trust dividends, will be paying a tax rate of 41.5 percent in 2011, the government said. Tax- exempt Canadian pensions will pay 31.5 percent, according to the finance department. Individual investors would continue to pay about 46 percent on trust payouts.

    Tax Rules

    The income trust issue has been a political minefield in Canada over the past two years. Trusts lost billions of dollars in market value last year when the previous Liberal government said it might change the tax rules, prompting Flaherty's Conservative Party to pledge in the campaign for elections in January that it would not tax trusts if it won power.

    Rather than tax trusts, the previous Liberal Party government cut dividend taxes to reduce companies' incentive to convert to trusts, a move Flaherty said didn't go far enough.

    The Conservative Party lacks a majority of seats in Parliament and needs support from opposition parties to pass laws. The New Democratic Party, which had called a moratorium on new income trusts earlier this month, may be ready to support the plan, Judy Wasylycia-Leis, head of financial affairs for the party, said in a telephone interview.

    To help soften the blow, Flaherty announced C$6.5 billion in additional tax cuts over six years, mostly for seniors, including a plan to allow income-splitting for pensioners as of next year.

    The government also said it will cut the corporate income tax rate by one-half percentage point as of Jan. 1, 2011, and increase the age credit amount by C$1,000 to C$5,066.
  • JFK
    FUBAR the ORIGINATOR
    • Jan 2002
    • 67369

    #2
    Ouch .............

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    Comment

    • Theo
      HAL 9000
      • May 2001
      • 34515

      #3
      "The government also said it will cut the corporate income tax rate by one-half percentage point as of Jan. 1, 2011"

      how much that 0,005%? i dont understand

      Comment

      • BlackCrayon
        Too lazy to set a custom title
        • Jun 2003
        • 19634

        #4
        sucks for them but its totally unfair that the average person should have to take on the burden of these huge corps who want to avoid taxes.
        you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..

        Comment

        • Odie
          Confirmed User
          • Apr 2003
          • 7040

          #5
          there's going to be a whole lot of drinking tonight at my bar...Bay St is going to be in an uproar...
          Odie
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          Comment

          • Manowar
            jellyfish  
            • Dec 2003
            • 71528

            #6
            that must suck

            Comment

            • GTS Mark
              Vrume Mark
              • Jan 2001
              • 20912

              #7
              Steal from the rich and give to the old!

              What a crock of shit! Bring back the liberals!!!

              DH

              Comment

              • the alchemist
                Confirmed User
                • Dec 2004
                • 3271

                #8
                Originally posted by DrinkingHARDEST
                Steal from the rich and give to the old!

                What a crock of shit! Bring back the liberals!!!

                DH
                Good one...
                264 349 400

                Comment

                • Brad Gosse
                  Confirmed User
                  • Jan 2002
                  • 2616

                  #9
                  FUCK ME. That sucks
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                  Comment

                  • cool1
                    sex is good
                    • Sep 2001
                    • 24939

                    #10
                    Conservatives suck

                    Comment

                    • magicmike
                      Confirmed User
                      • Feb 2003
                      • 2384

                      #11
                      That sucks, but i'm not at all surprised by the move.
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                      Comment

                      • WiredGuy
                        Pounding Googlebot
                        • Aug 2002
                        • 34515

                        #12
                        I heard this on the radio on the drive back home last night and was about to cry. I thought that loophole would last a lot longer than that.
                        WG
                        I play with Google.

                        Comment

                        • Jman
                          Already an AI veteran
                          • Sep 2003
                          • 22834

                          #13
                          Originally posted by DrinkingHARDEST
                          Steal from the rich and give to the old!

                          What a crock of shit! Bring back the liberals!!!

                          DH
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                          Comment

                          • Dollarmansteve
                            Confirmed User
                            • May 2005
                            • 2849

                            #14
                            Normal investors will suffer because of the brokers who made BANK pushing these trust units.

                            Investment advisors have a conflict of interest - I used to be a stockbroker, and I can tell you 100% that our meetings involved discussing the 'hot' products that were the easiest sell - new issues were always the best because they were no-load to the client and paid the most (up to 5 or 6 points). With this huge incentive, the brokers downplay the risks associated and investors walk blindly into these investments. The more they perform, the more crowding in there is by self-directed investors who, for the most part, have no clue at all (or are fooled into thinking they have skill when supported by a bull market...) - and thus the more people suffer. This is a classic demonstration of a 'bubble' type market.
                            I died.

                            Comment

                            • SleazyDream
                              I'm here for SPORT
                              • Jul 2001
                              • 41470

                              #15
                              Originally posted by DrinkingHARDEST
                              Steal from the rich and give to the old!

                              What a crock of shit! Bring back the liberals!!!

                              DH
                              we're in an aging population - expect more of that - old people vote
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                              Comment

                              • $5 submissions
                                I help you SUCCEED
                                • Nov 2003
                                • 32189

                                #16
                                Originally posted by SleazyDream
                                we're in an aging population - expect more of that - old people vote
                                Very good point. Corrollary point: expect more immigration due to aging population and lower birth rates. Interesting fact: as societies get richer, they have less and less children.

                                Comment

                                • Myst
                                  Confirmed User
                                  • Feb 2004
                                  • 4708

                                  #17
                                  will this mean the canadian dollar will far even further? (please oh please)
                                  ICQ: 298-523-037

                                  Comment

                                  • hershie
                                    Confirmed User
                                    • Jun 2002
                                    • 4642

                                    #18
                                    I wrote emails last night to the Prime Minister, Finance Minster and a bunch of MP's. I got hammered and am down tens of thousands today.

                                    I loved income trusts and followed and traded them daily. I have big holdings in "closed end" funds of trusts that employ leverage - they use margin to invest more than 100% of their cash, so they got particularily brutalized today. I am sick to my stomach.

                                    These actions are one of a banana republic and are unbecoming of Canada. The gov't promised not to touch them giving me a green light to increase my investments in them and then they do this shit.

                                    Comment

                                    • Why
                                      MFBA
                                      • Mar 2003
                                      • 7230

                                      #19
                                      oh canada, oh canada!

                                      sorry to those who lost money.

                                      Comment

                                      • Why
                                        MFBA
                                        • Mar 2003
                                        • 7230

                                        #20
                                        oh canada, oh canada!

                                        sorry to those who lost money.

                                        Comment

                                        • GTS Mark
                                          Vrume Mark
                                          • Jan 2001
                                          • 20912

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by SleazyDream
                                          we're in an aging population - expect more of that - old people vote
                                          LOL! Very good point!

                                          Nothing drives me crazy like people who complain up and down about government and then they have the gall to tell me they didn't vote.

                                          Well you know what, if you don't have the time to vote you have no right to complain about the course of action the government is taking.

                                          DH

                                          Comment

                                          • KrisKross
                                            Confirmed User
                                            • Jan 2006
                                            • 5025

                                            #22
                                            I technically lost a few hundred today because of this

                                            Comment

                                            • Spunky
                                              I need a beer
                                              • Jun 2002
                                              • 133978

                                              #23
                                              Fucking lying sack of shit Harper..they showed where he said twice to mark his words they wouldn't touch them..cocksmoker

                                              Comment

                                              • marketsmart
                                                HOMICIDAL TROLL KILLER
                                                • Dec 2004
                                                • 20419

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by DrinkingHARDEST
                                                Steal from the rich and give to the old!

                                                What a crock of shit! Bring back the liberals!!!

                                                DH
                                                Yeah!

                                                Comment

                                                • Tempest
                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                  • May 2004
                                                  • 10217

                                                  #25
                                                  Time to buy some stock!!!!

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Kimo
                                                    ...
                                                    • Jan 2006
                                                    • 11542

                                                    #26
                                                    that fucking sucks
                                                    ...

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Quotealex
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Sep 2001
                                                      • 6265

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by KrisKross
                                                      I technically lost a few hundred today because of this
                                                      Everyone lost money. The trust I have droped 25%

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Easton
                                                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                        • Sep 2002
                                                        • 9825

                                                        #28
                                                        RevCan had been talking about for over a year now... the fact it caught anyone by surprise makes them complete and utter idiots
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                                                        • hershie
                                                          Confirmed User
                                                          • Jun 2002
                                                          • 4642

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Easton
                                                          RevCan had been talking about for over a year now... the fact it caught anyone by surprise makes them complete and utter idiots
                                                          Wow are you clueless.

                                                          So even the most seasoned analysts, brokers, economists...that all were caught with their pants down today are all complete idiots but you and you alone were in the know, eh? There wasn't any pre-announcement sell-off at all, and the trust world's valuations recovered and then some from the Goodale debacle. You are way off with that comment.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Easton
                                                            Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                            • Sep 2002
                                                            • 9825

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by hershie
                                                            Wow are you clueless.

                                                            So even the most seasoned analysts, brokers, economists...that all were caught with their pants down today are all complete idiots but you and you alone were in the know, eh? There wasn't any pre-announcement sell-off at all, and the trust world's valuations recovered and then some from the Goodale debacle. You are way off with that comment.
                                                            you calling a CFA clueless? fuck you...

                                                            research the old articles and you'll see that RevCan hinted at this a long while back... i bailed my old clients out last year and they're sitting pretty right now
                                                            Last edited by Easton; 11-01-2006, 07:09 PM.
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                                                            • Easton
                                                              Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                              • Sep 2002
                                                              • 9825

                                                              #31
                                                              hershie: i recall that board you wanted me to post on and hype up your penny stocks
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                                                              Comment

                                                              • Spunky
                                                                I need a beer
                                                                • Jun 2002
                                                                • 133978

                                                                #32
                                                                Yet Harper made promises they wouldn't be touched..should have figured just another false promise to gain votes..

                                                                Comment

                                                                • hershie
                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                  • Jun 2002
                                                                  • 4642

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Easton
                                                                  you calling a CFA clueless? fuck you...

                                                                  research the old articles and you'll see that RevCan hinted at this a long while back... i bailed my old client out last year and they're sitting pretty right now
                                                                  Indeed, I am calling you a clueless CFA and idiot too.

                                                                  Why don't you go here: http://www.stockhouse.ca/bullboards/proforum.asp?symbol=$TRSTS&table=PRO&all=0&top=1&t =0 to where I and many smarter CFA, brokers, institutional investors and many smarter people then you and I discuss income trusts all day long and repeat that comment and see how fast you get shot down for stupidity. BTW, nobody calls it RevCan anymore, it is the CRA.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • hershie
                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                    • Jun 2002
                                                                    • 4642

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Easton
                                                                    hershie: i recall that board you wanted me to post on and hype up your penny stocks
                                                                    Thanks for keeping our private conversations that way. You are a real class act.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Easton
                                                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                      • Sep 2002
                                                                      • 9825

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by hershie
                                                                      Indeed, I am calling you a clueless CFA and idiot too.

                                                                      Why don't you go here: http://www.stockhouse.ca/bullboards/proforum.asp?symbol=$TRSTS&table=PRO&all=0&top=1&t =0 to where I and many smarter CFA, brokers, institutional investors and many smarter people then you and I discuss income trusts all day long and repeat that comment and see how fast you get shot down for stupidity. BTW, nobody calls it RevCan anymore, it is the CRA.
                                                                      go fuck yourself you piece of shit, i don't give a fuck about the income trust problems anymore as i live a healthy and wealthy life in the US
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                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Easton
                                                                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                        • Sep 2002
                                                                        • 9825

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by hershie
                                                                        Thanks for keeping our private conversations that way. You are a real class act.
                                                                        sure thing, you were the one looking for a "pump and dump" routine

                                                                        i'm done here... take it easy player
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                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Ill.Lori
                                                                          Registered User
                                                                          • Nov 2006
                                                                          • 69

                                                                          #37
                                                                          wow, thats not right...


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                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Phoenix
                                                                            BACON BACON BACON
                                                                            • Nov 2002
                                                                            • 35475

                                                                            #38
                                                                            well we need the tax money

                                                                            i wont be affected by this..everyone has to pay tax
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                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • hershie
                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                              • Jun 2002
                                                                              • 4642

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Easton
                                                                              go fuck yourself you piece of shit, i don't give a fuck about the income trust problems anymore as i live a healthy and wealthy life in the US
                                                                              Hundreds of thousands of Canadians including myself lost significant amounts of money today and for you to come here and say this:

                                                                              Originally posted by Easton
                                                                              the fact it caught anyone by surprise makes them complete and utter idiots
                                                                              makes you look like the biggest piece of shit I could imagine. You are a real class act to say that, especially when you are so materially wrong about it being "out there" since last year.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • hershie
                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                • Jun 2002
                                                                                • 4642

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by Easton
                                                                                sure thing, you were the one looking for a "pump and dump" routine

                                                                                i'm done here... take it easy player
                                                                                As a CFA, I shouldn't have to clarify this, but you should realize that micro cap stocks don't get any research coverage or institutional following and I was merely trying to raise awareness of some stocks to retail investors through marketing initiatives such as making posts on message board threads involving their peer group. That is a far far cry from participating in a pump and dump scheme which I would never be part of before or now.
                                                                                Last edited by hershie; 11-01-2006, 07:34 PM.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • hershie
                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                  • Jun 2002
                                                                                  • 4642

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by Spunky
                                                                                  Yet Harper made promises they wouldn't be touched..should have figured just another false promise to gain votes..
                                                                                  It wasn't even one of those blah blah blah promises buried on page 12 of a campaign policy book. He openly mocked the Liberals about how Goodale screwed it up and vowed repeatedly in front of the cameras that his gov't wouldn't dare screw up this mess the Liberals caused and would never tax income trusts EVER. He made it a central pillar of his campaign to woo investors, seniors...and he screwed us last night.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Dcat
                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                    • Aug 2003
                                                                                    • 1607

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by BlackCrayon
                                                                                    sucks for them but its totally unfair that the average person should have to take on the burden of these huge corps who want to avoid taxes.
                                                                                    Exactly! Greedy Corps should not be permitted to shift all the tax burden onto the backs of average Canadians. I'm all for it.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • woj
                                                                                      <&(©¿©)&>
                                                                                      • Jul 2002
                                                                                      • 47880

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      ouch, that's gotta suck :-/
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                                                                                      • hershie
                                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                                        • Jun 2002
                                                                                        • 4642

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by woj
                                                                                        ouch, that's gotta suck :-/
                                                                                        Tens of thousands of seniors employed an investment strategy where they took a line of credit against their homes...and used that to invest in income trusts in addition to 100% of their investment account, as in Canada you could write off the interest on a LOC as long as you invest it with the expectation that you will earn dividend income with the loan which is exactly what income trust investing is all about. So, lots and lots of people not only lost a great deal of their cash today, they lost money that they borrowed or were on margin at their brokerage. It was a blood bath.
                                                                                        Last edited by hershie; 11-01-2006, 09:21 PM.

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • sickbeatz
                                                                                          The Hustler
                                                                                          • Feb 2005
                                                                                          • 4993

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          canadian government is before it's time by like 4 decades.. putting your money into any canadian institution is stupid

                                                                                          GalleryFeeder.com

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          • Wiggles
                                                                                            Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                            • May 2004
                                                                                            • 14423

                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            exchange rate should be nice now though.
                                                                                            no sig

                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                            • BlackCrayon
                                                                                              Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                              • Jun 2003
                                                                                              • 19634

                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by hershie
                                                                                              Tens of thousands of seniors employed an investment strategy where they took a line of credit against their homes...and used that to invest in income trusts in addition to 100% of their investment account, as in Canada you could write off the interest on a LOC as long as you invest it with the expectation that you will earn dividend income with the loan which is exactly what income trust investing is all about. So, lots and lots of people not only lost a great deal of their cash today, they lost money that they borrowed or were on margin at their brokerage. It was a blood bath.
                                                                                              yeah, seniors convinced by brokers who never had their best interests in mind. only their own commissions... maybe im in the minority but i would never loan money to invest in the market. thats just crazy. way too easy to get fucked and lose it.
                                                                                              you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..

                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                              • hershie
                                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                                • Jun 2002
                                                                                                • 4642

                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by BlackCrayon
                                                                                                yeah, seniors convinced by brokers who never had their best interests in mind. only their own commissions... maybe im in the minority but i would never loan money to invest in the market. thats just crazy. way too easy to get fucked and lose it.
                                                                                                The carnage continues today, and I think a lot of it is all the margin calls forced selling from all the tens of thousands of Canadians that took loans/margin to buy more trusts. Really sad day

                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                • Easton
                                                                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                  • Sep 2002
                                                                                                  • 9825

                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by hershie
                                                                                                  You are a real class act to say that, especially when you are so materially wrong about it being "out there" since last year.
                                                                                                  read the second paragraph:
                                                                                                  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...Story/Business

                                                                                                  notice how it says: "Ottawa's decision to tax income trust distributions revives the uncertainty and angst of a year ago when the federal government shifted its policy on the asset class"

                                                                                                  so yes, it was a known issue a year ago and that is what i was referring to
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                                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                                  • Dollarmansteve
                                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                                    • May 2005
                                                                                                    • 2849

                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by hershie
                                                                                                    Tens of thousands of seniors employed an investment strategy where they took a line of credit against their homes...and used that to invest in income trusts in addition to 100% of their investment account, as in Canada you could write off the interest on a LOC as long as you invest it with the expectation that you will earn dividend income with the loan which is exactly what income trust investing is all about. So, lots and lots of people not only lost a great deal of their cash today, they lost money that they borrowed or were on margin at their brokerage. It was a blood bath.
                                                                                                    Welcome to the real world - people are not unaccountable for their investment decisions and should be fully aware of the investment products that they own. If they are not aware - then they are irresponsible.

                                                                                                    The government is not the bad guy here - the bad people are

                                                                                                    1) The corporations who dodged taxes and passed the risks onto individuals
                                                                                                    2) The investment delers who made hundreds of millions of dollars pushing these units and who are STILL STINKING RICH regardless of this legislation.

                                                                                                    The stock market is risky - always has been, always will be and anyone who is lulled into a sense of security by a bull market is simply an uninformed sucker.
                                                                                                    I died.

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