ISRAEL should do what Americans have done in WW II

150...,.,.....

I can't argue with this statement either.
You are one smart cookie, man, and you get it.

well if we are talking about UN resolutions then I guess we should remember that Israel has broken more UN security council resolutions in its history than EVERY other country on earth COMBINED. Thats pretty damning

The bombing of Dresden, along with the many other German cities was insignificant to the outcome of the war, and was simply a war crime that need not of been committed. If anything only hardened frontline German soldiers will to fight even though they were up against impossible odds - the same would happen with the Arabs in the Middle East. If you honestly think this is how they won the war you are a moron.

And that said, no side anywhere notable, can get away with the number of civilan deaths in modern warfare, as opposed to in the Second World War. We should be thankful for that, rather than having Zionist pigs like yourself talk us back into it.

crazy soviet jew strikes again...

Yep in Tokyo the americans killed more than 100,000 people in 1 night of firebombing alone. Thats why they chose Hiroshima for the bomb, there was already fuck all left off Tokyo to destroy.

Also in regards to Hezbollah it didnt even exist until the illegal Israeli 20 year occupation of Lebanon began. Now they provide bus services, hospitals and schools in addition to their military actions. I have the utmost sympathy for the Israeli's who die as a result of terrorist actions against their country. However obliterating a neighbour and devastating the lives of its civillian population is not the answer to this problem. What is? Im not sure. But blowing the fuck out of them will never work it will just harden their resolve and lead to more people becoming extremists. How long before our resident muslims decide enough is enough and begin to commit acts of terror where we live. This has already happened in the UK and is only likely to continue in the future when we engage ourselves in such foolish wars.

Tokyo was a primary target. Cloud cover prevented them from bombing Tokyo so they went to a secondary target.

i like how all you idiots that know nothing of history just start rewriting it on the fly to suit your backwards arguments and defenses of the perfect utopia you are trying to create.

to win a war you must destroy the will of the people your attacking

thats why total anniliation was used in certain wars to end the confilct. Like WWII.

without this attitude war is futile, just look at any conflict since WWII, which were all clusterfucks of failure, objectives never met. loses that couldve been success' if the right technics were applied.

same could be said of todays problems. the right technics are not being applied.

now im going to finish my brownie and coffee and go to bed

Remind me how many nations used same technique against Afghanis ??? and they are still kicking.. again and againhahaha8230;

how many nations? you mean beside the soviet union?
uhm...

let me count....

hmmmm...

0?

British, US

welcome to idiot-clubbbbbbbb... you could have used google instead...

I've never considered what your comments.. but they are pretty accurate now that I think about it.

To end a war, you need to either kill everyone, or make peace (doesn't happen often, but can happen).

That does explain why terrorism is here to stay.. no-one can win this war and there won't be any peace

Actually I have a degree in history, I guess it just depends on who's books you are reading. Why bomb Tokyo when they could test it on a less damaged city. For what its worth im a supporter of the decision to drop the bomb, usually I would use the Tokyo example as a reason why the nukes were good. Firebombing killed far more japanese and thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives were saved by dropping the bombs and not continuing to Island hop all the way to Japan itself.

Hmm surely Vietnam was won in this way? Won by the Viet Cong of course. The american people lost the will to fight after seeing the horrendous casualties being inflicted upon their troops that were broadcast into their homes day after day for years at a time. I think this is happening right now to a lesser extent with the wars in the middle east. In a couple more years the demand to bring our soldiers home will force the hand of the powers that be.

0.02

Yep many wars have been fought and lost in afghanistan over the centuries. Pleasure Pays talks as if the Soviet Army of the Afghan conflict were weak.

The Israeli's are a militia army at best backed up with the best gadgets that money can buy. that is why they have already lost more troops on the ground in Lebanon than the British professional army have in Afghanistan. I just think its sad to hear of deaths on either side. How many more Israeli boys have to go home in bodybags before enough will be declared is enough.

Porn and cannabis laws aside I am as right wing as they come, I was a staunch supporter of the Iraq war until it became obvious that we had gone to war on the basis of a lie. Now I feel saddened and ashamed by the actions that have been taken by the Blair govt in our name. The vast majority of the UK population feels the same.

This thread is eating into my working day, I keep thinking of new things to post. Im gonna have to stay away now and get some work done

if you drop dead the world won't even notice and your parents will have a sigh of relief.

still with no traffic, putz?

ouch, I may not agree with your stance on the war Serge but that is a putdown I shall remember for future use lol

Soviets sucked cock in Afganistan and still scratch their balls how USA did what they could not...

...or how lousy one's teachers are.
You can not analyze facts, your degree is worthless, as your presense on the PORN board proves beyond the reasonable doubts..
NEXT! "historian", please!

9-11 changed the attitude of Americans. As we saw in the bombing of WTC, doing nothing doesn't prevent the civilian casualties on OUR side, which makes Americans much less sensitive to the casualties on THEIR side.
If every moslem terrorist gets AIDS tomorrow- no to many Americans shed any tears.

America is putting massive amounts of money (by afghani standards) into the country, removed an oppressive regime and nobody was supplying the Taliban with stinger missiles and the like in this conflict. Remember the Afghan campaign was to topple the Taliban not to crush the Afghan people. Again with hindsight if the US had not just abandoned the country and broken its promises after the soviet defeat then the Taliban would never have come to power. Another terrorist group created in the last 20 years because of the actions (or inaction) of the western world perhaps?

The two conflicts (US/Soviet) have been fought under totally different circumstances.. If they werent then Afghanistan right now would be a lot more like the situation in Iraq where there is total chaos and the US cannot claim to be in control. Sadly neither can the Iraqi government. Fortunately Afghanistan is worlds apart from the situation in Iraq.

I have no time for terrorists but sometimes we have got to ask why they feel the way they feel. What terrible wrongs have been done to them or their people in the past to make them feel so fanatical and full of hate and resent. A lot of the reasons for this most definitely can be blamed at least in part on the actions of the west. We do some fucked up shit too its just been glossed over by the media to make us feel better about ourselves. Blowing up a bus can never be condoned but nor can punishing an entire nation for the actions of a few. If the UK had taken the iron fist approach against the Irish people because of the IRA for example then all hell would have been let loose and the violence would have been much more widespread and bombings more frequent in response to our heavy handedness.

0.02

Well I went to university to study history for my own pleasure. I was already an adult webmaster before that. But I agree my degree is pretty worthless as I have no intention of gaining employment in that field whatsoever. However my time spent studying was still worthwhile and I had 3 great years as a result. Thanks for the concern though bud

Please explain WHY Hitler felt sick about Britts and bombed their cities? Was Churchill wrong fighting with them to their death instead of singing Kumbaya with nazies?

You got me all wrong...I have no concern for you whatsoever and if I met you in person, I'd crack your head wide open. Will your debating skills prevent me from doing this by just talking? How much you wanna bet that the only way to preserve the integrity of your head is to hit mine first?

Also serge what is your stance on the point I made above that Israel has broken more UN resolutions than every other country combined? Doesnt that make them a rogue state?

PS whoever said North Korea was a mosquito is pretty foolish. The reason we will not go to war with them is that they have over 4000 Heavy Artillery Pieces within 30 miles of Seoul and what, 100-200k American Troops? The city would be levelled by the time the US airforce could take out every artillery piece. Also with millions of men in uniform, a fanatical zeal and a shit quality of life these guys would fight till the last man against an invading US army. You cant take out enough foot soldiers from the air to win a war like that.

That is why Hezbollah are still going strong and still firing the same number of missiles day in and day out. The Israeli airforce isnt hampering their infrastructure enough to cause any kind of decline in the number of attacks. That is why they are now fighting on the ground and sadly dying, an m16 in the hands of a militiaman is much the same as an ak47 in the hands of a terrorist. Intensifying the bombing isnt going to make any difference.

The USA should carpet bomb your ass off the face of the planet!

Well i guess that would be because we declared war (rightly) on Germany, refused to capitulate and blew fuck out of their cities in response to the Blitz. The Blitz was bad but the casualty figures are so much more heavy on the German side.

The difference is Hitler was leader of a sovereign state which invaded other nations. In the current battle Hezbollah are pseudo terrorists with some legitimacy who provide some vital services within their country. Why do the lebanese population deserve to be punished so greatly for the actions of a group who are not even in power. Wouldnt it be better to support the Lebanese government and assist them in ousting Hezbollah themselves? When Israel was created the US immediately began to financially support it and tacitly assisted them in ousting the indigenous populations of all races and religions. Now Israel is a powerful and largely succesful democracy. I think it would be better to help its neighbours develop to a similar level than blow them back into the stone age.

I have no stance. Can you post the links to the resolutions Israel has broken and the resolutions broken by other states?
Veryfiable facts, please.

only T W O Katyushas were fired at Israel today, Israelies do more than you give them credit for.

LMAO being called out by a wine fanatic, thats a first Its easy to be a keyboard warrior, however your threats are idle as a guy like you would not risk being sued and losing some cash over a current affairs debate, that would just be dumb. Hire a goon if you like though to deliver your headbutt if you like, it shouldnt cost much and I will relish the opportunity to crack him in the face I coud use some real world practise

Hezbollah is the PART of the Lebanese Government. What you are actually proposing is to declare the war on USA, for example, but ONLY hurt Republicans. How exactly do you plan to achieve that?

not true. The FIRST ones who were supported Israel were...Soviets, who saw them as allies against their old enemy UK. When Soviets saw that USA is getting involved on the same side, they switched sides and aligned themselves with Arabs.

I wish your degree in history was more meaningful.

Board warrior? I was credited with the murder of few people in New Jersey, among other things, do the search.


So you will "relish the opportunity to crack him in the face" but Israelies should stay idle?
Would you please explain the illogism?

Sure heres a short list


1955-1992:
* Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".
* Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed
fifty-six people".
* Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone'
in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
* Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its
attack on Syria".
* Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the
West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
* Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967
Palestinian refugees".
* Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh
in Jordan".
* Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military
parade in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in
Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
* Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem
as Jewish capital".
* Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant
violation".
* Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to
probe occupation".
* Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
* Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in
Jordan".
* Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change
the status of Jerusalem".
*Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in
southern Lebanon".
* Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions
on Jerusalem".
* Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from
Lebanon".
* Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form
Lebanon".
* Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of
Jerusalem".
* Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against
Lebanon".
* Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs
abducted in Lebanon".
* Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against
Lebanon".
* Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's
sovereignty".
* Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from
Lebanon".
* Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from
Lebanon.
* Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN
peacekeeping forces".
* Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a
'serious
obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva
Convention".
* Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
* Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in
occupied territories".
* Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member
states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
* Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention
in Lebanon".
* Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of
two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".
* Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the
council's order not to deport Palestinians".
* Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to
abide
by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
* Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are
'null and void'".
* Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its
claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".
* Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two
deported
Palestinian mayors".
* Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's
nuclear facility".
* Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan
Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision
forthwith".
* Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
* Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon
and withdraw its troops".
* Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith
and unconditionally from Lebanon".
* Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and
allow food supplies to be brought in".
* Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN
resolutions
and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN
forces in Lebanon".
* Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".
* Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia
in attack on PLO headquarters.
* Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to
withdraw
its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".
* Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian
students
at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
* Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices
denying the human rights of Palestinians.
* Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and
strongly
requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
* Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United
Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
* Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian
civilians.
* Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of
Palestinians.
* Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians
at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
* Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the
United
Nations.
* Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation
of
Palestinians.
* Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and
calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
* Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of
Palestinians.
* Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413
Palestinians


Also in regards to the 2 rocket attacks I think you will find that is because both sides agreed to a 48 hour ceasefire so that aid convoys can get through to the south of the country. Israel claimed the hezbollah fighters ended that ceasefire when a tank came under fire. Their response was to take out yet more civillians and kids. How many hezbollah? who knows, most likely zero. 2 rockets in return isnt that bad a breach of the peace in comparison to what has been going on over the last 3 weeks. What news sources do you watch/read? The BBC has been very pro israeli and biased in how they are presenting things but even they reported the facts on this one. I find it hard to believe an educated man such as yourself would not be aware.

Yes I would, if somebody wants to have a fight with me then I will take them on. However I wouldnt go around to where they live and put petrol bombs through the windows of their neighbours houses for good measure. If I did that then next time a whole gang of my victims relatives are gonna turn up at my house and beat me down and deservedly so. Cant you see the logic in that?

Serge, the Soviet Union did not formally create the state of Israel in the middle east. Please do not tell me that you believe that to be true. The UK and US is responsible for the map of the current middle east. We took the Ottoman empire who were defeated in WW1 and we carved it up into a large number of new nation states. Then in 1948 we went back and took a small piece and gave it to the Jews who yes had already begun to settle in the middle east of their own accord after WW2.

Also Hezbollah has a handful of seats in an admittedly small parliament. By contrast in France the National Front gets a huge proportion of the votes and a significant number of seats in government. Would you want to wipe them out too being as they are extreme right wingers and not particuarly fond of Jews? It is better to give these people an alternative to Hezbollah. If we helped the Lebanese government become self sufficient and able to provide the buses, hospitals, schools etc that its people need and want then Hezbollah becomes less and less attractive and less and less relevant to the lives of ordinary Lebanese citizens.

Thats 4 points for you to digest, I shall check back after a cup of tea and see what your rebuttals are

you haven't done what I asked you to do, and ONLY showed your bias.
You were supposed to put side by side all other states who violated UN resolutions and...you didn't. Did they teach you bias in the history classes?

another one sided Euro-Arab propaganda. Are you aware that yesterday was a record day of fired rockets at Israel?

No, I can not.....when I say "I", I=WE and WE are going to come over and crack your head, 'til one of us succeeds...unless you come to "our" houses and firebomb us before we crack your head.

Maybe your head is not worth fighting for, this I can understand.

oh my, your history degree is...non-existant, you made it all up!

1) Jews has started moving to Palestine in the begining of the century, my great uncle was one of them, loooong before Britts defeated Ottoman Empire. Jews were BUYING land from Arabs...note BUYING, not taking.

2) The State of Israel was created by United Nations, not UK or USSR, or USA.
Jews were fighting Britts, who were supported Arabs and blockaded ships with WWII refugees from entering the ports. Jews blew UK military installations. I understand why Britts are so pissy against Israel, always were.

3) Where do I send the bill for teaching you the history?

Sorry but I am looking at this an unbiased observer, if anything I should be biased in your favour as im from the UK the US' only ally worth talking about in this fight. I shall look up the full list and find the info for you. What does a record number of rockets fired tell you? To me it says that 3 weeks of bombardment and suffering has achieved nothing. Nothing except for the loss of life to tens of israeli troops, many more wounded, hundreds of Israeli Dead, thousands of Lebanese Dead. Hundreds of millions of dollars worht of damage to the infrastructure of the country. Is that success? How many more of your fellow Jews have to die before you decide that maybe escalating the conflict wasnt such a great thing. Its easy for us to sit her and chat about it and sling mud back and forth at each other but if we were there living on the ground, you in Haifa, me in Beirut, neither of us would feel particuarly safe and thats what it all boils down too, peoples lives being ruined and destroyed because we think its best to kill. Its just wrong plain and simple.

No arguments from me, logical and well put idea.

Thats fine, if you and your gang want to come round and have a scrap with me and my gang then bring it on. But when we have given you a beating we wont be going to the neighbours of your gang members as well. Unless you are assuming that being in a gang is decided purely by race and that everyone who is of that creeed colour or religion is one and the same and therefore deserve to be firebombed regardless of whether they turned up at my door or not. if that really is what you believe and where you are coming from then you are only inches away from advocating Fascism and a final solution of your own design :/

we live in the Democracy and your opinion doesn't have to coinside with the opinion of your government. I see no reasons why you should obstain from being biased just because you are Britt.

It tells me that there is MORE job to be done.

Hitles wasn't defeated overnite, the ONLY medicine which works right away is...enema.

The lives of my fellow Jews is in danger every day. Your suicide bombers, never stop. But they will, when they are dead from our bombs instead of thei imams who hold the finger on the trigger.

you won't go into my "hood" because you'll be DEAD, as one of my suicide bombers will get you sooner or later. Sitting on one's ass and doing nothing hasn't saved anybody.

You say that but we are gonna have to do a hell of a lot more supporting and rebuilding after Israel has finished with Lebanon. Better to get them on their feet sooner rather than later no? Everytime a bomb falls another person becomes indoctrinated with hate. Why did the Soviets fight so hard in WW2? Because they lost 20 million people to the Germans, over 3 times more than the Jewish people lost. What did that do? It created a will of steel and a determination to fight on and that will of steel developed into a fist of steel that hammered down upon the German nation and people with furious vengeance and wrath and bitchslapped them all the way back to Berlin. What if the events of today are shaping an iron fist holding aloft the banner of Islam that will come to pummel us in 10 20 years most likely from within. We dont have to take the route we are currently taking. Someone just needs to stop making money off fat defense contracts and looking for excuses to go to war.

THIS IS THE OLD SERGE I MISSED!!!

Time to break out the splintered broom sticks!

I agree with you in part I believe in the Churchill school of thought with regards to appeasement. However this debate is focused on lebanon hezbollah and Israel. If Israel could kill every Hezbollah fighter overnight then I would be all for it, but they cant all they can do is generate more enemies to fight. Again I think we have to distinguish between the ways to deal with rogue nations and rogue elements of a society. Obliterating bystanders is not the way.

right numbers, wrong analyse and conclusions.

Jews didn't fight, unlike the Soviet Union, because Jews had no
state,
army,
weapons
Actually they did fight in Warsaw Ghetto, often with bear arms against tanks, but...not all of them went to the gas chambers and some died fighting.