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#201

07-24-2006, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by will76

BULLSHIT. If you really cared about your sufers you would give them two options to signup, Option 1: for your convenience your membership will rebill each month. Option 2: good for 30 days and then you will have to signup again.

PEOPLE hate rebilling memberships A LOT more then 1 freaking popup. popup, hit "x" its over with. forget to cancell or didn't even notice it rebills, hours of wasted time trying to cancel and money out of their pockets. I can't believe you honestly think 1 pop up is hated more then rebilling memberships...

And i find it funny how you bash on popups and want to do everything for the surfer but then say in regards to rebilling " it is unfortunite that people can't read"... well why don't you make it easier for them and give them too options to sign up? rebill and non rebilling ??? too fucking funny.

I have been thinking about this option for years. I see many great sites offering this as an option. I have tried the recurring only option even though many people mentioned just what you did. I see it as a problem also but I first wanted to see for myself. I made it clear in many places that my membership would recur and I tried it out to see what would happen. Over the years I have had very very few people email me about being billed and not wanting that and I issued a credit to their cards and sent an appology. I am still looking into the option of non recurring option and after your post I will be seriously considering it. I am all for making this industry better for the customers.

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#202

07-24-2006, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by jpv

So I do agree with you here but that does not mean I am going to do something to my visitors which I know they do not like

like rebilling memberships lol.

come on, if you don't want to upset your members, then give them an option to join that does not rebill.

You say you get feedback from your surfers, you not going to kid anyone here into believing surfers are more annoyed by having to take the time to cancel a membership vs a popup. Rebilling charge, call the bank to try to get it refunded, or not even notice they were going to rebill in the first place, trying to contact the site or call the phone number and sit on hold for long time waiting to cancel, etc... you know how it goes to cancel. And your reply to this is " you can't help it if some people can't read "

I am in favor of rebills, popup, aka making money. I just think it is hypocritical for some of you here to bash someone for using a popup but think a rebilling membership is ok.

Like i said orginally I am all in favor of making money AND not screwing anyone, but I don't want to go to the extreme to put "are you sure you want to signup, what if your wife finds out" on the signup page. or email them and give them a heads up that their membership is about to rebill, etc.. A popup is not screwing anyone or taking money out of their pockets. I am also not going to do stop doing something that is way on the bottom of the list of things that upset some people, ever heard the old saying " can't make everyone happy". Well i am not going to even try, this is business and i am here to make money in an LEGAL way, that is with in what is the norm online.

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#203

07-24-2006, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by jpv

I have been thinking about this option for years. I see many great sites offering this as an option. I have tried the recurring only option even though many people mentioned just what you did. I see it as a problem also but I first wanted to see for myself. I made it clear in many places that my membership would recur and I tried it out to see what would happen. Over the years I have had very very few people email me about being billed and not wanting that and I issued a credit to their cards and sent an appology. I am still looking into the option of non recurring option and after your post I will be seriously considering it. I am all for making this industry better for the customers.

ok, let me get this striaght you got losts of emails about popups and very very few about a rebilling charge over the years????

It shouldn't take you more then a few minutes to add the second option on your site " 1 month membership, will not rebill. " Give them both so you don't piss anyone off

the second you add that option to your site, your sales will plummit and you will be registering " howiusetobeanadultmillionaire.com "

if you are that self rightous about this, you shouldn't be in sales.

1. provide an excellent product
2. market in an legal way.
3. provide good customer service.
4. make money.

you trying to add
5. it is more important to try to make everyone happy and not upset anyone they it is to make my business profitable.

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#204

07-24-2006, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by jpv

I have been thinking about this option for years. I see many great sites offering this as an option. .

I accept your apology and know it seems like i am laying it on hard, but i have debated this, in particular about popups for years with people, so you got your hands full with me on that subject. This is nothing personal, just throwing some stuff back at you.

You say in regards to offering a non rebilling signup up option, " that many great sites are offering this as an option".

Can you name 10 ?

thanks

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#205

07-24-2006, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by will76

ok, let me get this striaght you got losts of emails about popups and very very few about a rebilling charge over the years????

It shouldn't take you more then a few minutes to add the second option on your site " 1 month membership, will not rebill. " Give them both so you don't piss anyone off

the second you add that option to your site, your sales will plummit and you will be registering " howiusetobeanadultmillionaire.com "

if you are that self rightous about this, you shouldn't be in sales.

1. provide an excellent product
2. market in an legal way.
3. provide good customer service.
4. make money.

you trying to add
5. it is more important to try to make everyone happy and not upset anyone they it is to make my business profitable.

No I am not trying to take it that far. What I am trying to do is create a large customer base who likes my site and who continues to join my site multiple times each year. So far I am accomplishing this. I do it by giving the customer what they want and what they don't want. Like I said I have had customers email me about the recurring. Some miss it and after an email explaining it to them and giving them a credit to their card for the second month then I have seen them join again without any problems. Being upfront as possible and giving good customer support is important. Recurring membership/subscription is a standard business model in many industries and it is being utilized in businesses with great customer satisfaction. Our business is one but I do have people who don't understand and need things explained better to them so I try to be clear.

Many sites in the past used very very shady rebilling tactics. Giving free memberships and hiding in small print that it rebills and even other stuff. This is not what all recurring business models is about.

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#206

07-24-2006, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by will76

You say in regards to offering a non rebilling signup up option, " that many great sites are offering this as an option".

Can you name 10 ?

thanks

lol. I did not realize I said many. I should not have said many. There are not that many great sites to begin with but I can only name a few off the top of my head which have a non recurring option. It is defintely not a common business model. But I really think a recurring membership can be done honestly if it is clear.

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#207

07-24-2006, 07:09 PM

Know let's find who wrote this article!

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#208

07-24-2006, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Basic_man

Know let's find who wrote this article!

was already posted on the first or second page

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#209

07-24-2006, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by will76

Rui, I am not trying to reason anything, what i said is what i said, there is a lot worse to worry about online then a popup, period.

True but what I meant to say is that just because there is "much worse" it doesn't make popups appealing to a surfer, in fact dunno nobody that likes them

Everytime the subject comes up with my friends (most surfers) the general idea is that they are shady and works fast way for them to click BACK ;)

Unless its from places like Amazon, forums (pm notifications,etc..)etc...that have a reputation for not "fucking around" then popups can be usefull...but even then I belive those days are long gone.

damm must stop writing at 4am...cant even look at the monitor

nigth folks
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#210

07-24-2006, 07:29 PM

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

It PAYZE to post on GFY

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#211

07-24-2006, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by jpv

Recurring membership/subscription is a standard business model in many industries and it is being utilized in businesses with great customer satisfaction. Our business is one but I do have people who don't understand and need things explained better to them so I try to be clear.

Many sites in the past used very very shady rebilling tactics. Giving free memberships and hiding in small print that it rebills and even other stuff. This is not what all recurring business models is about.

Well i can't believe you trying to make it sound like surfers like/appreciate the rebilling model. That's bullshit. People select the rebilling option because it is the only option. QUote " Recurring membership/subscription is a standard business model in many industries and it is being utilized in businesses with great customer satisfaction. " I bet you more then half the people in rebilling get charged for longer then they wanted to because they either forgot to cancel or because they had difficultly canceling through the site. I am sure those people are greatly satisified. I doubt 1 person here will believe that statement you made.

Ok, so now we have made a full circle. I see pop ups as being a "standard business practice" in this industry, there are on most of the big sites, porn or not, hell you can't sign into aol without a popup, try going to your local news site, anything. But you don't like that industry standard because it upsets people, but you do like the industry standard of rebilling, even though that upsets people.

I'll cut through the shit, you are against popups because it is convenient for you for you to be, you honestly think you make more money without them, on the other hand you know that if you did away with rebilling your sales would drop about 75%, so you can't be against that, even though that option pisses off a lot of people.

You know why you can't name 10 sites that don't offer the non rebilling signup method, because they wouldn't be in business long, muchless be a great site. I doubt affiliates would be flocking to use them either.

Can you name 5?

Last edited by will76; 07-24-2006, 09:12 PM.

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#212

07-24-2006, 09:20 PM

popups, like anything else can be abused. but if used properly a popup can be effective and a very good way to market. If some surfers get their panties all bunched up over it, it is their problem.

You go into a store looking to buy a Sony Flat Screen TV, you don't see any you like,on your way out the saleman mentions that they have a nice Panasonic on Sale and shows it to you. Thats a pop up used correctly. Do you stop shopping at this store ? This is called Sales 101, and people are fine with it. Hey some people even appreciate it when you point something else out to them. Take me for example, i have thousands of signups from popup pages, were those people mad, do i not give them something they wanted. obviously, i did .

You go into a store looking to buy a Sony Flat Screen TV, you don't see any you like, on your way out the salesman GRABS you by the hand, and shows you a Washer and Drier, Refrigerator, Toaster Oven, DVD players, New Laptop, a camcorder, etc.... That is a pop up used incorrectly. Would you come back to this store?

Last edited by will76; 07-24-2006, 09:21 PM.

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#213

07-24-2006, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by vvq

The surfer gets fucked with popups and crosses so affiliates can be paid $40 on a $1 trial. The demands of affiliates drive how programs operate. You can't leave anything on the table. Instead you need to focus on how to monetize your traffic so you get the most out of it. Affiliates demand high payouts and trials. If you can't offer these, they'll just push a program that can. Not to mention just about every program offers console free links for those of you that don't want your traffic hit with exits. So i don't really see what the big fuss is about.

Had to reply to this. Don't know if anyone else has.

Affiliates are not demanding more, sponsors are offering it.

What damage does is do? We have disappointed the buying surfer to a point where few sites convert better than 1 -500 and the average is a lot worse. This means 499 missed opportunities to sell porn, the surfer was looking at it, is interested in it and this industry has failed to sell to him.

If you think 6 years of screwing the surfer has helped us please explain why.

If you think an industry should be led by the nose by people delivering potential customers to it's front door then again please explain how and why.

This industry converts at around 1 - 1,000 and blames free porn, an area it creates and fills daily. While refusing to look at itself and offering what the customer really needs.

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#214

07-25-2006, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

Had to reply to this. Don't know if anyone else has.

Affiliates are not demanding more, sponsors are offering it.

What damage does is do? We have disappointed the buying surfer to a point where few sites convert better than 1 -500 and the average is a lot worse. This means 499 missed opportunities to sell porn, the surfer was looking at it, is interested in it and this industry has failed to sell to him.

If you think 6 years of screwing the surfer has helped us please explain why.

If you think an industry should be led by the nose by people delivering potential customers to it's front door then again please explain how and why.

This industry converts at around 1 - 1,000 and blames free porn, an area it creates and fills daily. While refusing to look at itself and offering what the customer really needs.

There are about a hundred reasons average ratios have gone up over the past six years. Most of these have nothing to do with the surfers being pissed off because they've been hit with popups or cross sales. Examine some of the billing practices of the late 90s. I'm sure those left a much more sour taste in the mouths of customers than perfectly legal popups, cross sales, and trials.

As long as you're not breaking any laws I don't see what the problem is. Why would you want to leave money on the table? 10 years from now the way we operate is going to be different regardless if we take out the popups, crosses, and trials. You work to monetize the traffic the best you can. Your methods will change as technology and the availability of technology to the consumer changes. Technology will force the way we market and who we market to, to change.

Surfers want trials. Affiliates want high payouts. There is always going to be someone else offering this. This is business. You can say these practices are going to have a negative impact on the future of the industry all ya want. It's not going to change anything. Can either bitch about it, or get back to working hard to make money.

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#215

07-25-2006, 03:10 AM

good,am gonna read it now and make my millions
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jpv

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#216

07-25-2006, 04:43 AM

Originally posted by will76

like rebilling memberships lol.

come on, if you don't want to upset your members, then give them an option to join that does not rebill.

You say you get feedback from your surfers, you not going to kid anyone here into believing surfers are more annoyed by having to take the time to cancel a membership vs a popup. Rebilling charge, call the bank to try to get it refunded, or not even notice they were going to rebill in the first place, trying to contact the site or call the phone number and sit on hold for long time waiting to cancel, etc... you know how it goes to cancel. And your reply to this is " you can't help it if some people can't read "

I am in favor of rebills, popup, aka making money. I just think it is hypocritical for some of you here to bash someone for using a popup but think a rebilling membership is ok.

Like i said orginally I am all in favor of making money AND not screwing anyone, but I don't want to go to the extreme to put "are you sure you want to signup, what if your wife finds out" on the signup page. or email them and give them a heads up that their membership is about to rebill, etc.. A popup is not screwing anyone or taking money out of their pockets. I am also not going to do stop doing something that is way on the bottom of the list of things that upset some people, ever heard the old saying " can't make everyone happy". Well i am not going to even try, this is business and i am here to make money in an LEGAL way, that is with in what is the norm online.

I never reply to my members "too bad because you could not read". If some have missed the notices that they are getting rebilled and email me then I give them credits and cancel their membership. I have seen these same members join again later. It is about honesty. It is not about tricking them into rebilling like those stupid 30 minute trials... free trials with no mention of canceling, tricky cross sales and many other very shady tactics used in the past and even now to trick visitors to think it was a one time charge. Today it is getting better because of regulations.

When you first mentioned that I should have a non rebilling option I starting debating to myself this issue. This was my thought process... I have had few complaints about people being rebilled and those who did were taken care of. I have had many many many members stay for months then cancel, then join again for a few months and cancel, and again. I have had members stay for years and they email me often about how great the site is. I have seen many stay for months and email me later to cancel their membership because they do not want to be billed anymore. All of this evidence I have seen is that people are ok with the recurring option... They KNOW it is there and they are ok with it. They are not being tricked. I have done enough transactions and received enough member feedback to see this. This is proof that you are wrong about everyone or even most people hate rebills. It seems to be convenient for many members so they do not need to keep signing up each month.

Yes the membership/subscription model does make more money than single sales. Magazines have proved this. They do everything to get subscribers. But you are wrong that subscriptions TRICK people. Only a very small percentage of people don't realize it is a monthly membership and I take care of those members. I will give them their money back.

I realized the subscription model will make more money but all of my evidence shows that people ARE AWARE of it... at least on my site. I think you are referring to many of the sites who DO trick the visitors that they will not be rebilled. 5 years ago I saw this alot. It is getting better and I am upfront with it. Until I start seeing more of my emails complaining about rebills and credit/charge back reasons coming back about rebills there is no way I am going to believe that alot of people hate this. I receive so many emails about member satisfaction after months and years of membership that there is no way I can believe your statements. I am not even sure what evidence you are using to come up with this belief that many people hate recurring memberships.

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#217

07-25-2006, 05:09 AM

Are you going to post the url of your site that your posting about ?
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#218

07-25-2006, 05:18 AM

Originally posted by Evil Chris

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Name five.

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#219

07-25-2006, 05:26 AM

Originally posted by Equinox

Let's pop the question with the obvious answer. The site that you referred to on your site is q's ultrawired, correct?

Isn't that Quiet's site?

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#220

07-25-2006, 06:06 AM

Originally posted by Basic_man

Know let's find who wrote this article!

C'est moé
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#221

07-25-2006, 06:27 AM

one of the best article I've ever read
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#222

07-25-2006, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

This industry converts at around 1 - 1,000 and blames free porn, an area it creates and fills daily. While refusing to look at itself and offering what the customer really needs.

Can I frame this?
Seriously.
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#223

07-25-2006, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by will76

I'll cut through the shit, you are against popups because it is convenient for you for you to be, you honestly think you make more money without them, on the other hand you know that if you did away with rebilling your sales would drop about 75%, so you can't be against that, even though that option pisses off a lot of people.

Basically, Yes. Athough I don't agree with the 75% drop. I think it will drop but that number I think is harsh and just another guess. Also, I don't gree with rebilling pissing alot of people off. I already have evidence that it does not. Like I said only a very very few of my membership get credits/chargebacks due to rebills which they did not want.

But the basic statement of I think I make more money without popups because I have evidence many people don't want to see them... and I make more money with recurring membership business model and I have evidence most people are ok with this billing and it is a solid business model.

Many great businesses use subscription base billing and customers use it without problems. But there are always a few who get pissed off about it. Some businesses include, cable tv, isp, magazines, and many more. As long as it is honest and upfront then I am ok with it.

If alot of my customers tell me they want something or don't want something... I LISTEN. This is my whole point. Pleasing the customer to make more money for me. that simple.

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#224

07-25-2006, 06:54 AM

I will never forget the first time I went to an adult convention. It was the fall of 1997 and IA2000 was being held in Orlando. The guest speaker was discussing traffic management to a room of about 150 people. The speaker said something like " I want to extract as much money as possible from the surfers to my site, as fast as possible, and then I want them off my site so they arent costing me money in bandwidth". I would say at least a third of the room was like "Right on!" and were murmuring in approval. I was dumbfounded. This "shearing of the sheep" as it was also described at that seminar was something that I just couldnt agree with.

Provide a quality experience for your members and they will be back. Its a simple formula, but one that surprisingly few sites were doing when I got into the business in 97. It was all about marketing and volume back then, and it was not out of the ordinary to see programs running 30 front ends for 1 back end members area. It was a pretty small circle of sites that pursued the model that JPV writes about. ATK, ALSscan, Karups--these were the type of sites that followed the model of the focusing on site quality over marketing. Its no surprise that these sites continue to do great business and now their members areas are so vast that potential competitors face barriers to entry in their respective niches.

I do disagree JPV about popups and unchecked value oriented cross sells. The value of those two things outweighs the negatives imo.
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#225

07-25-2006, 06:56 AM

There is always the mainstream subscription approach like espn. The surfer can choose a higher one time yearly or 6 month charge for complete access or a smaller monthly rebilling option.

Many mainstream sites do this as well as some smaller adult sites.
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#226

07-25-2006, 06:57 AM

oh come on, post who it is!
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#227

07-25-2006, 07:06 AM

Originally posted by will76

popups, like anything else can be abused. but if used properly a popup can be effective and a very good way to market. If some surfers get their panties all bunched up over it, it is their problem.

You go into a store looking to buy a Sony Flat Screen TV, you don't see any you like,on your way out the saleman mentions that they have a nice Panasonic on Sale and shows it to you. Thats a pop up used correctly. Do you stop shopping at this store ? This is called Sales 101, and people are fine with it. Hey some people even appreciate it when you point something else out to them. Take me for example, i have thousands of signups from popup pages, were those people mad, do i not give them something they wanted. obviously, i did .

You go into a store looking to buy a Sony Flat Screen TV, you don't see any you like, on your way out the salesman GRABS you by the hand, and shows you a Washer and Drier, Refrigerator, Toaster Oven, DVD players, New Laptop, a camcorder, etc.... That is a pop up used incorrectly. Would you come back to this store?

First off I know sales can be made with popups. I have done it. But you should know how bad they convert. It takes massive traffic just to get enough sales to survive on.

The anology with the store is a little different. Webmaster have been using this to justify pupups for years. I think pop ups can have thier place in this industry but you are missing my general view of things. If webmasters/affiliates can properly market a site and send a visitor their then there is not a need for a popup. The site should be clean and simple and concentrate on that site only. If a surfer backs out then don't give them something that the vast majority of people don't like and many people are using software to stop specifically.

I don't like using analogies much because most of the time it is comparing apples to oranges but I will use your analogy the way I see it in our industry... The tgp, free site, review site, or blog is the store. Visitors look on that site and click on something they might like but it turns out they did not like it. They hit the back button where they are given more options. This is where they are given options... At the store (affiliate site). Affiliates are the salesman who give you options. Companies such as Sony hope that a salesman will sale a Sony but they might just sale an LG. Paysites hope that their affiliates promote them well that way when a customer looks at the product they are more interested at first glance. Let say Sony used that new speaker technology that can direct sound to a certain area only... so if you walked up to a Sony then went to walk away it would start a sales pitch or tell you about another sony product I would get a headache and try not to walk in front of Sonys anymore. Paysites are Sony... not the store. Affiliates are the store and they give the options.

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#228

07-25-2006, 07:08 AM

Although I think a popup on a join page with a discount might be good. I am not staying away from popups like a plague. I just think in most cases they hurt bottom line future earnings rather than help. Esspecially when there aer multiple popups.

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#229

07-25-2006, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

Had to reply to this. Don't know if anyone else has.

Affiliates are not demanding more, sponsors are offering it.

What damage does is do? We have disappointed the buying surfer to a point where few sites convert better than 1 -500 and the average is a lot worse. This means 499 missed opportunities to sell porn, the surfer was looking at it, is interested in it and this industry has failed to sell to him.

If you think 6 years of screwing the surfer has helped us please explain why.

If you think an industry should be led by the nose by people delivering potential customers to it's front door then again please explain how and why.

This industry converts at around 1 - 1,000 and blames free porn, an area it creates and fills daily. While refusing to look at itself and offering what the customer really needs.

True but I do think vvq is half right. Many new webmasters or webmasters who just don't understand the long term returns they can make in this business need to be shown that treating their visitors right will make them alot of money in the long term. Many webmasters have said they would rather take $40 now and use that money to make more... well there is a problem... They have said that for years and over the years it has been harder to make the ROI they were making. Maybe it was because they were chasing that fast buck and things are starting to dry up. I started in PPS with the same thinking but I ran into problems that is why I used the money I made in the past to create a long term business model which would be stable over the next 10 years. This is a very very lucrative business and I want a piece of it for a long time. I think customer satisfation and a huge customer return is the way to do it.

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#230

07-25-2006, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by vvq

As long as you're not breaking any laws I don't see what the problem is. Why would you want to leave money on the table? 10 years from now the way we operate is going to be different regardless if we take out the popups, crosses, and trials. You work to monetize the traffic the best you can. Your methods will change as technology and the availability of technology to the consumer changes. Technology will force the way we market and who we market to, to change.

Maybe the way you operate but not the way I operate. I will still be pushing a quality product to attract return business. If you are after the fast cash and the unstable affiliates then you will need to change. Hopefully there will be new technology and tactics to pay out $50 for a one month free trial so you can fuck the surfer in his ass while tricking him that he will get a free month.

You are caught in an never ending battle to attract affiliates with high payouts and using low cost trials. If a site needs a low cost trial then that site CAN'T SELL ITSELF. The site needs a trial as a sale point so it can convert all of the shitty traffic affiliates send for those high payouts and you can make up the difference by not clearly mentioning about rebilling or hiding the cancel button so members don't cancel in the trial period and get rebilled $40.

Sorry. This business model pisses me off. This model is exactly why programs can't retain for shit and get very low return business from their customers. They need other tactics to make money and it hurts all of us.

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#231

07-25-2006, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by scoreman

I will never forget the first time I went to an adult convention. It was the fall of 1997 and IA2000 was being held in Orlando. The guest speaker was discussing traffic management to a room of about 150 people. The speaker said something like " I want to extract as much money as possible from the surfers to my site, as fast as possible, and then I want them off my site so they arent costing me money in bandwidth". I would say at least a third of the room was like "Right on!" and were murmuring in approval. I was dumbfounded. This "shearing of the sheep" as it was also described at that seminar was something that I just couldnt agree with.

Provide a quality experience for your members and they will be back. Its a simple formula, but one that surprisingly few sites were doing when I got into the business in 97. It was all about marketing and volume back then, and it was not out of the ordinary to see programs running 30 front ends for 1 back end members area. It was a pretty small circle of sites that pursued the model that JPV writes about. ATK, ALSscan, Karups--these were the type of sites that followed the model of the focusing on site quality over marketing. Its no surprise that these sites continue to do great business and now their members areas are so vast that potential competitors face barriers to entry in their respective niches.

I do disagree JPV about popups and unchecked value oriented cross sells. The value of those two things outweighs the negatives imo.

I do need to mention that crossed check sales is what pisses me off. Unchecked is ok as long as the text is clear what they are opting into.

As for the popups... I really think one on the main reasons why my clickthrough rate from my galleries to my paysite are sky high is my site not having popups. And this is with the same traffic sources every day for years. My site is like an extension to the gallery. It is safe for them to go their to preview more and they know it. Most hosted galleries for site would love to have a 5% click though rate. I would think a server is down if I saw something that low... I truely think this is because of no popups anywhere they see my logo. My stuff is straight forward.

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#232

07-25-2006, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by jpv

I do need to mention that crossed check sales is what pisses me off. Unchecked is ok as long as the text is clear what they are opting into.

As for the popups... I really think one on the main reasons why my clickthrough rate from my galleries to my paysite are sky high is my site not having popups. And this is with the same traffic sources every day for years. My site is like an extension to the gallery. It is safe for them to go their to preview more and they know it. Most hosted galleries for site would love to have a 5% click though rate. I would think a server is down if I saw something that low... I truely think this is because of no popups anywhere they see my logo. My stuff is straight forward.

Im just curious how no pops = higher CTR? I would also argue that.. 99% of TGPs dont allow posting of galleries that link to sites with consoles anyway, so...

Also, there was a huge thread about pre-checked xsells before. And I'll say here what I said there: Surfers are not idiots - They have to Check the "I have read the terms and conditions etc etc" in order to process the transaction and the xsell is completely transparent - there is absolutely no deception involved in a pre-checked xsell. over 75% of people sucessfully un-check pre-checked xsells - so you're telling me the other 25% of people are just stupid or got 'scammed'?

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#233

07-25-2006, 08:12 AM

quick synopsis: stop spending your entire work day at GFY

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#234

07-25-2006, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by Dollarmansteve

Im just curious how no pops = higher CTR? I would also argue that.. 99% of TGPs dont allow posting of galleries that link to sites with consoles anyway, so...

Also, there was a huge thread about pre-checked xsells before. And I'll say here what I said there: Surfers are not idiots - They have to Check the "I have read the terms and conditions etc etc" in order to process the transaction and the xsell is completely transparent - there is absolutely no deception involved in a pre-checked xsell. over 75% of people sucessfully un-check pre-checked xsells - so you're telling me the other 25% of people are just stupid or got 'scammed'?

Because sufers recognize my galleries. They recognize my logo. Many know where they are going when they click a link on my gallery. They know there are more free samples and no popups there. It is very straight forward. I have not read the rules of tgps in years but I am pretty sure they allow one exit popup. Anyways surfers like coming to my paysite. They know what they are getting and it does not include popups. I think this is why I have MANTAINED high click through ratios to my site over the years. Surfers now recognize my site. When I first told my cousin what I did and showed him my site he fell on the flour and laughed. He had no idea I was running the site. He said he visited it often through galleries and loved how simple it was and liked the free video previews.

As far as prechecked sales you are very wrong saying surfers are not idiots. They are! I hate to say it but people in general are idiots. Including me. I miss things all of the time. I am glad 75% of the people have learned to uncheck that cross sale now. I bet that percentage was not that high when cross sales first came out. People learn but at the same time many don't.

I think many of you are missunderstanding what I am after. I want to give the surfer what they want. Cross sales produce high chargebacks and credits. 75% of the people now DON't WANT the cross sale which you already pointed out. Also I have no idea how many of the 25% did not want it either.

My product is simple and upfront. No backend charges. My customers love that and I think I am on the right track getting a large returning customer base. Many customers come back to my site every couple months to join again for a couple months. I am curious to see the percentage of return customers within a year to sites who use popups, cross sales, and other methods to inflate affiliate payouts.

If one of my customers want to be cross sold somewhere else then they can choose another site to join from inside my members area in a way that is obvious but not interferring.

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#235

07-25-2006, 09:36 AM

Oh my god, did I just spent half an hour reading a great debate on GFY?

Great thread!

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#236

07-25-2006, 09:41 AM

BTW JPV would you be willing to show me your work in an email or something. Your model sounds a lot like ours, FreeOnes has been working for over 8 years now building trust with its visitors.

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#237

07-25-2006, 10:25 AM

So how do you feel about limited trials... are they good thing or a bad thing for the industry??

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#238

07-25-2006, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by jpv

I think many of you are missunderstanding what I am after. I want to give the surfer what they want. Cross sales produce high chargebacks and credits. 75% of the people now DON't WANT the cross sale which you already pointed out. Also I have no idea how many of the 25% did not want it either.

I just want to point out that the above statement in bold is absolutely false. Xsells do not produce high chargebacks and credits - this is a myth. Everyone has to play by the same rules regarding chargeback %age. If a Xsell increased chargeback %age to an unacceptable level the merchant account would be closed. The bank/visa/MC does not discriminate in this regard.

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#239

07-25-2006, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by jpv

I have had few complaints about people being rebilled and those who did were taken care of. I have had many many many members stay for months then cancel, then join again for a few months and cancel, and again. I have had members stay for years and they email me often about how great the site is. I have seen many stay for months and email me later to cancel their membership because they do not want to be billed anymore. All of this evidence I have seen is that people are ok with the recurring option...

Only a very small percentage of people don't realize it is a monthly membership and I take care of those members. I will give them their money back.
.

Bullshit, i don't doubt that you will refund them, ofcourse you will you dont want the charge back. But it is bullshit that people don't get screwed on rebilling memberships. I bet you get more emails about it then you are admitting to here.

I wonder how many of your customers who are rebilling for years don't even know about it and the billing stops not when they contact you but when their card is maxed out or the card is closed out.

Originally posted by jpv

I realized the subscription model will make more money but all of my evidence shows that people ARE AWARE of it... at least on my site. I think you are referring to many of the sites who DO trick the visitors that they will not be rebilled. 5 years ago I saw this alot. It is getting better and I am upfront with it. Until I start seeing more of my emails complaining about rebills and credit/charge back reasons coming back about rebills there is no way I am going to believe that alot of people hate this. I receive so many emails about member satisfaction after months and years of membership that there is no way I can believe your statements. I am not even sure what evidence you are using to come up with this belief that many people hate recurring memberships.

this sounds more like you are trying to advertise your site to get affiliates then you are being honest here. Little over doing it with the all your members are happy, people cancel come back signup again, people email you year later saying how great the site is...

Rebilling memberships piss people off I dont care what site you own. The surfer has no choice so they accept it, maybe that's why you don't get a lot of complaints about it, because they know everyone does it and they have no choice, so why complain about it. BUT it doesn't mean they dont like it.

You want to go on and on and on about the surfer, then give them a CHOICE! Change the industy, and stop FORCING surfers into having to get a rebilling membership. Why not offer both and not piss anyone off?????? Why not give them a choice. How can you lose? That is if your goal is to not upset anyone.

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#240

07-25-2006, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by will76

Rebilling memberships piss people off I dont care what site you own. The surfer has no choice so they accept it, maybe that's why you don't get a lot of complaints about it, because they know everyone does it and they have no choice, so why complain about it. BUT it doesn't mean they dont like it.

You want to go on and on and on about the surfer, then give them a CHOICE! Change the industy, and stop FORCING surfers into having to get a rebilling membership. Why not offer both and not piss anyone off?????? Why not give them a choice. How can you lose? That is if your goal is to not upset anyone.

If your goal is not to upset anyone, you're doomed to failure. There will always be whack jobs out there who'll come up with a problem out of the blue, no matter what you do.

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#241

07-25-2006, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by Dennis69

So how do you feel about limited trials... are they good thing or a bad thing for the industry??

I never have tried them yet but i can tell you i average a couple emails a day from prospective members asking me if my trial allows access to the whole site or just a small portion.

Also wIll76 is right on the money with non-recurring memberships

Some surfers are very very reluctant to join a membership knowing that they will be re billed automatically each month and that they will have to go thru some sort of long hassle to cancel. Probably a product of being burned in the past by a scamming site that made it hard to cancel and kept re billing.

You can also charge more fore non-recurring memberships. My default is 23.95 for a recurring and i charge 29.95 or 34.95 for a non recurring.

EVEN with a 2.95 trial present somewhere around 20% of the sign ups choose the non recurring membership. I believe that many of these sign ups you would never get at all without a NON recurring option.

1. $2.95 3 Day Trial Period, followed by 23.95 recurring every 30 days
2. $23.95 recurring every 30 days
3. $34.95 for 30 days access, non-recurring.

Why else would they choose option #3.

BUT

Everyone has their own theories, so even though CCBill & Paycom make our 3rd party payouts, we have custom coded our own admin to allow affiliates to change & customise the price points "on the fly". (no need to change linking codes)

They can choose trial or no trial the price of the trial as well as the prices of the monthly and non recurring memberships with just a few clicks.
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#242

07-25-2006, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by jpv

Many great businesses use subscription base billing and customers use it without problems. But there are always a few who get pissed off about it. Some businesses include, cable tv, isp, magazines, and many more. As long as it is honest and upfront then I am ok with it..

How can you compare Cable tv, and isp, etc.. to porn memberships. People don't mind cable tv rebilling membership because they use it everyday. Same for ISP, they get online everyday. They didn't signup for cable because they wanted to see 1 show and thats it. They didnt signup to the internet because they wanted to go to 1 website. How do you compare these things to porn membership sites??? people signup to get off, because they are horny at that moment in time. Sure some come back but you can't compare the two. EVERYONE's intention signing up is to GET OFF and if the site has good content they will stick around and stay a member, if not they don't want it. But you make they have to cancel to stop getting it. Why not let them decide they want to keep the membership by signing up again.

Originally posted by jpv

If alot of my customers tell me they want something or don't want something... I LISTEN. This is my whole point. Pleasing the customer to make more money for me. that simple.

Then why dont you offer a membership that does not rebill for your customers who only signup because they need to get off right now, and they don't want to have to try to cancel or hope they don't forget etc...

I can't believe you trying to sell this. Rebills have a bigger black eye on the industry then pop ups do. How many BILLIONS you think were made in rebills from people who forgot to cancel, or the site made it difficult for them to do so. Even though you claim to refund these people why do you want to force them to select a membership option that people are leary of. You never heard surfers say, they want to sign up to a site but they worried it will be a pain in the ass to cancel? or they got screwed before from other sites? Why not SHOW your surfers you care and want to make it convenient for all of them, give them 2 options to join.

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#243

07-25-2006, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by QuaShe

BTW JPV would you be willing to show me your work in an email or something. Your model sounds a lot like ours, FreeOnes has been working for over 8 years now building trust with its visitors.

Lmk roald A,T freeones dot, com

If not, no problem I can understand it ;))

lol. At least I have you fooled ;) You are one of my few affiliates but you have not started sending traffic yet. We exchanged a few emails recently.

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#244

07-25-2006, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Dennis69

So how do you feel about limited trials... are they good thing or a bad thing for the industry??

I think they could be good if used right. It needs to be done very clearly and there needs to be a very simple setup. If it is not very simple and clearly stated then I think it could run into some problems. I never worked with this model so I am not sure of the effects. This is just my general view of it.

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#245

07-25-2006, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Dollarmansteve

I just want to point out that the above statement in bold is absolutely false. Xsells do not produce high chargebacks and credits - this is a myth. Everyone has to play by the same rules regarding chargeback %age. If a Xsell increased chargeback %age to an unacceptable level the merchant account would be closed. The bank/visa/MC does not discriminate in this regard.

For each credit/charge back there is a reason. Are you saying that cross sales don't contribute to a large percentage of the credits/charge backs? Are you saying that sites who pay for cross sales don't have higher credits/chargebacks that sites like karups, twistys, atk, and other sites? I don't care what the unacceptable level is for credits/chargebacks. You can still be under that "acceptable" level and still be producing a hell alot more credits/chargebacks that other sites by using tactics such as cross sales.

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#246

07-25-2006, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by will76

Bullshit, i don't doubt that you will refund them, ofcourse you will you dont want the charge back. But it is bullshit that people don't get screwed on rebilling memberships. I bet you get more emails about it then you are admitting to here.

I wonder how many of your customers who are rebilling for years don't even know about it and the billing stops not when they contact you but when their card is maxed out or the card is closed out.

this sounds more like you are trying to advertise your site to get affiliates then you are being honest here. Little over doing it with the all your members are happy, people cancel come back signup again, people email you year later saying how great the site is...

Rebilling memberships piss people off I dont care what site you own. The surfer has no choice so they accept it, maybe that's why you don't get a lot of complaints about it, because they know everyone does it and they have no choice, so why complain about it. BUT it doesn't mean they dont like it.

You want to go on and on and on about the surfer, then give them a CHOICE! Change the industy, and stop FORCING surfers into having to get a rebilling membership. Why not offer both and not piss anyone off?????? Why not give them a choice. How can you lose? That is if your goal is to not upset anyone.

I have been very upfront and honest here. I say when I am wrong but I am not lying at all about this stuff. I will not say what my site is. I don't want constructive conversations seem like I am spaming. I want to make legit claims but leaving my site out of it. I am not here to drum up affiliates.

I have been posting evidence of actual member feedback. You refuse to belive me so you are believing what you believe based on what evidence? It seems like you just have a belief or theory without any substance behind it. I do have substance. Years of member feedback. What I said about my member feedback was not a lie.

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#247

07-25-2006, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by will76

I can't believe you trying to sell this. Rebills have a bigger black eye on the industry then pop ups do. How many BILLIONS you think were made in rebills from people who forgot to cancel, or the site made it difficult for them to do so. Even though you claim to refund these people why do you want to force them to select a membership option that people are leary of. You never heard surfers say, they want to sign up to a site but they worried it will be a pain in the ass to cancel? or they got screwed before from other sites? Why not SHOW your surfers you care and want to make it convenient for all of them, give them 2 options to join.

Wait a minute. I never said rebilling never had a dark past. I am here trying to say I want to clean up the industry. I am clear that memberships renew and members can cancel at any time. I have a cancel link even on my main ligin page for my affiliate. If you are saying all rebilling is about scamming then you are wrong. I don't care how dark it was in the past. I am NOT a part of those tactics now. I am upfront as possible. Like I said many times my members who stay months email me and say they would like to cancel and they will be back in a few months. Most seem to be fine with this. I have had very few cases of members saying they did not want to be rebilled so I had to give them a credit.

I DO get alot of emails from members who join my site and ask me to make sure their membership does not rebill... And I make sure it does not. It is simple customer relation. I am not ripping anyone off. I am selling memberships.

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#248

07-25-2006, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by jpv

Maybe the way you operate but not the way I operate. I will still be pushing a quality product to attract return business. If you are after the fast cash and the unstable affiliates then you will need to change. Hopefully there will be new technology and tactics to pay out $50 for a one month free trial so you can fuck the surfer in his ass while tricking him that he will get a free month.

You are caught in an never ending battle to attract affiliates with high payouts and using low cost trials. If a site needs a low cost trial then that site CAN'T SELL ITSELF. The site needs a trial as a sale point so it can convert all of the shitty traffic affiliates send for those high payouts and you can make up the difference by not clearly mentioning about rebilling or hiding the cancel button so members don't cancel in the trial period and get rebilled $40.

Sorry. This business model pisses me off. This model is exactly why programs can't retain for shit and get very low return business from their customers. They need other tactics to make money and it hurts all of us.

Quality is important. Especially for a high paying PPS program. Guy joins for $1, the only way you can even break even on this customer is if they rebill. You can't have shitty sites and get away with low trials/high payouts. Even with popups and cross sales. A quality members area is more important with sites offering trials than anything else.

Offering low trials has nothing to do with not being able to sell the site. Take your top converting site that only has a full join option. Throw a low trial join option on it. You'll obviously get more joins. Simply because some people aren't interested in paying the full amount upfront. By not offering a low trial option, you're saying you don't want these peoples business, and for no real reason. If you have a good members area, you can offer low trials. Plain and simlpe fact. If a surfer is pissed because they got rebilled full from a trial, it's because they're stupid and didn't take the time to read:

Today's Charge is: $1.00 for a -3 day trial period.
Membership Renews automatically at $34.95 every 1 month(s) Until Cancelled.

If you're gonna say this is somehow tricking the surfer, then any type of rebill in general should be seen as tricking the surfer. Hide the cancelation button? Are your forgetting companies have to maintain an acceptable CB/CR percentage for billers to continue processing for them? If these tactics were really pissing off customers you'd think a company would be getting more chargebacks and credits right?

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#249

07-25-2006, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Dollarmansteve

Im just curious how no pops = higher CTR? I would also argue that.. 99% of TGPs dont allow posting of galleries that link to sites with consoles anyway, so...

Also, there was a huge thread about pre-checked xsells before. And I'll say here what I said there: Surfers are not idiots - They have to Check the "I have read the terms and conditions etc etc" in order to process the transaction and the xsell is completely transparent - there is absolutely no deception involved in a pre-checked xsell. over 75% of people sucessfully un-check pre-checked xsells - so you're telling me the other 25% of people are just stupid or got 'scammed'?

I agree. .....

JPV you go on and on how rebilling membership is ok because you make it clear to people when they signup that it will rebill. Same exact thing could be said for cross sales with a box pre checked. If it says to uncheck the box if you don't wont it, how is that any different then saying you will need to cancel when you don't want your membership anymore. At least with the cross sales they can uncheck it and be done with it. With a rebilling site they *usually* have to do a lot more to get their membership cancelled.

So basically it is ok to offer 1 if you plainly state what you are doing but it is not ok to offer the other if you plainly state what you are doing.

Last edited by will76; 07-25-2006, 02:46 PM.

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jpv

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#250

07-25-2006, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by vvq

Quality is important. Especially for a high paying PPS program. Guy joins for $1, the only way you can even break even on this customer is if they rebill. You can't have shitty sites and get away with low trials/high payouts. Even with popups and cross sales. A quality members area is more important with sites offering trials than anything else.

Offering low trials has nothing to do with not being able to sell the site. Take your top converting site that only has a full join option. Throw a low trial join option on it. You'll obviously get more joins. Simply because some people aren't interested in paying the full amount upfront. By not offering a low trial option, you're saying you don't want these peoples business, and for no real reason. If you have a good members area, you can offer low trials. Plain and simlpe fact. If a surfer is pissed because they got rebilled full from a trial, it's because they're stupid and didn't take the time to read:

Today's Charge is: $1.00 for a -3 day trial period.
Membership Renews automatically at $34.95 every 1 month(s) Until Cancelled.

If you're gonna say this is somehow tricking the surfer, then any type of rebill in general should be seen as tricking the surfer. Hide the cancelation button? Are your forgetting companies have to maintain an acceptable CB/CR percentage for billers to continue processing for them? If these tactics were really pissing off customers you'd think a company would be getting more chargebacks and credits right?

You are way off base here. First of all I did not say trials are bad. I am against the business model which uses trials to attract affiliates who don't know shit about marketing. They send traffic and see nice conversions... AND paysite use that volume of affiliate traffic to hit surfers with popups, pre checked cross sales, and high rebill costs for a poor members area. I don't agree with the ENTIRE business model. Trials alone are fine. My point is use none of those and create a solid product FOR the customer and you can make MORE MONEY. The return customers are amazing.

And where did I say all trials are tricky? My site does not use trials but it does rebill. I just spent all day defending how honest sites show a member will be rebilled. I am AGAINST THE SITES who are NOT UPFRONT about it.

Don't tell me paysite sites need a great members area to get surfers to stay from the trial. Look at many PPS sites and compare them to karups, twistys, atk, and other sites like these. Many members areas are complete shit. I DO like the direction of nasty dollars, bangbros, perfect gonzo and others with their members area. I like to see them using great content, regular updates, simple members area, and great bonuses to win over members. They are changing the way member areas are for the better in the PPS market. But I do wish these sites would uncheck their cross sales.

Also for your comment "By not offering a low trial option, you're saying you don't want these peoples business, and for no real reason." You are very right. I don't want those customers. I am not looking to add a limited trial model to my site and I am defintely not going to let members join my site for $1 and download my whole damn members area. Visitors to my site asked if I had a trial so they can see it and I emailed them back and told them what I just told you... Most join anyways after reading my response.

You are putting words in my mouth. You are arguing about things I did not say.

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