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XonDemand

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#1

CEO arrest - should gambling online be legal ?

07-20-2006, 06:36 AM

CEO arrest - should gambling online be legal ?

NO BAIL FOR CARRUTHERS

BetonSports executive is regarded as a "flight risk" say American officials
Trading in shares of online gaming company BetonSports
A growing number of industry people are concerned at the harsh manner in which U.S. officials have treated a respectable British businessman following his arrest last weekend at Dallas airport whilst transiting the U.S.A.

David Carruthers, the CEO of the BetOnSports group and an outspoken critic of American political attempts to ban online gambling, was arrested and held incommunicado on a sealed indictment naming 11 persons for a range of 22 alleged offences under American law. He was held overnight in the local county jail, appeared briefly the next day in handcuffs in a federal district court and was committed to custody without bail for several days pending a further hearing.

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#2

07-20-2006, 06:37 AM

It currently is not and this guy is fucked.
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#3

07-20-2006, 06:43 AM

Originally posted by L-Pink

It currently is not and this guy is fucked.

what he says.
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#4

07-20-2006, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by L-Pink

...................outspoken critic of American political attempts to ban online gambling............

this is why they are fucking with him most. you talk shit, the hammer comes down on you.
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#5

07-20-2006, 06:51 AM

what the fuck USA do here, intercept LEGAL UK citizen and throw it in jail when he is switching airplane...

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FuqALot

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#6

07-20-2006, 06:54 AM

His job just happens to be related to online gambling.. but the reason why he was arrested is tax fraud and other illegal stuff.
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#7

07-20-2006, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by skillfull

what the fuck USA do here, intercept LEGAL UK citizen and throw it in jail when he is switching airplane...

Sorry, he was importing gambling to US citizens. He knew he was doing it against the law. I would love to promote gambling. But I think he knew the risks.
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#8

07-20-2006, 06:57 AM

no suprise
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#9

07-20-2006, 06:58 AM

I dont get it , UK citizen with a UK company doing nothing against the UK law ? ? how in earth can the US think it is their job to arrest him ?

if he has defrauded the US in any way , cool , arrest the motherfucker

the US = China ?

I dont like US laws and decide to make that public knowledge the US arrest me ? ? wel mao ming me !
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#10

07-20-2006, 07:36 AM

people should be able to do that they want with their own money.

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#11

07-20-2006, 07:36 AM

people should be able to do that they want with their own money.

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#12

07-20-2006, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by skillfull

what the fuck USA do here, intercept LEGAL UK citizen and throw it in jail when he is switching airplane...

He was a dumb-ass for stepping foot on US soil.
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#13

07-20-2006, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by L-Pink

He was a dumb-ass for stepping foot on US soil.

It's sad that this is supposed to be the free and tolerant USsA.
That sentence used to read
"he was a dumb-ass for stepping on Chinese soil."

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#14

07-20-2006, 09:13 AM

It should be legal. This guy will walk, my 2 cent.

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#15

07-20-2006, 09:37 AM

Yes it should be legal thus taxable. It?s a 12+ billion dollar a year industry? lots of tax mullah.
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#16

07-20-2006, 09:40 AM

damn , that's dramatic insane........

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#17

07-20-2006, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by FuqALot

His job just happens to be related to online gambling.. but the reason why he was arrested is tax fraud and other illegal stuff.

maybe his citizonship with usa expired.

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#18

07-20-2006, 02:07 PM

People should be allowed to do what they want, how they want, when they want, as long as that action doesn't negatively affect others.

But...it'll take some apocalyptic shit to get that point across.
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#19

07-20-2006, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by notabook

Yes it should be legal thus taxable. It?s a 12+ billion dollar a year industry? lots of tax mullah.

from what I could see on businessweek its a bit more ... "U.S. Americans are by far the biggest online gamblers, betting a massive $145 billion over the Internet in 2005

betting and gambling will never stop so why not tax it instead?
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#20

07-20-2006, 02:26 PM

nice to see the USA still thinking their laws apply to acts not committed on their soil.
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#21

07-20-2006, 02:31 PM

SEO Black Hat had a great post on this topic, check it out:

http://seoblackhat.com/2006/07/18/bet-on-sports-sportsbook-ceo-arrest-commentary/

My favorite bit:

People sometimes complain about companies like Yahoo and Google and their buckling to Chinese Law. In fact, online gambling is legal and regulated in the UK and in Costa Rica where these sports books operate. But the US has no problems arresting forign citizens who have committed no crime on US soil and were in fact operating legitimate business in thier home countries. There is no difference between what the US did and you getting arrested on a flight layover in China for for publishing something about democracy on your website.
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#22

07-20-2006, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by FuqALot

His job just happens to be related to online gambling.. but the reason why he was arrested is tax fraud and other illegal stuff.

Not accurate. David Caruthers does not have any business interests in the US - nor does he owe funds in taxes to the US.

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#23

07-20-2006, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by XonDemand

maybe his citizonship with usa expired.

He was never a US citizen.

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#24

07-20-2006, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by skillfull

what the fuck USA do here, intercept LEGAL UK citizen and throw it in jail when he is switching airplane...

if he is wanted, and in the US, he is fair game.

Anyone know of the British government is doing anything to get him released?
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#25

07-20-2006, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by Degenerate

It should be legal. This guy will walk, my 2 cent.

One way of other he'll walk Degenerate - even after he may be convicted in a US court.

There are too many issues underlying this - not just from the gaming industry.

Also, think yesterday one country lodged a complaint to the WTO over non-compliance of previous WTO rulings by the US.

The "war" is only starting - and smell this will be at various levels

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XonDemand

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#26

07-20-2006, 07:53 PM

convicted one and the rest will know or will create a loop hole.

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#27

07-20-2006, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by XonDemand

convicted one and the rest will know or will create a loop hole.

By the same arguement used for the arrest of David - that means any adult webmaster who happens to travel on-route thru a country where - eg blowjobs are obscene and an offense - can be arrested in that country, even tho they have no business interests there.

OK.. Truth is, there is a lot in the background going on - and that is related to a US citizen who was a previous owner of BOS and is currently resident in Costa Rica operating one of the largest gaming operations in the world.

Who knows, but smell there will be pressure on Caruthers to deliver up some information he may know - or not know. Either way, seriously doubt he'll be playing these games.

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#28

07-22-2006, 12:50 PM

1 online gambling advertiser has spent over 20 million a month in ad spend with Yahoo. ( net 2 casinos) for years running...

casinos has the highest amount of traffic and bids (advertisers) on yahoo and they make the most from gambling online promotions...

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#29

07-22-2006, 12:55 PM

yes online gambling should be legal. but id imagine the casinos in vegas have a lot of pull. and could very well be swaying a few politicians opinions with their comp presidential suites and handfuls of chips.
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#30

07-22-2006, 01:55 PM

Online Gambling will eventually become legal. The US is loosing too much TAX on it.

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#31

07-22-2006, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by iwantu

Online Gambling will eventually become legal. The US is loosing too much TAX on it.

Ironically iwantu, several US casinos have set up gambling operations in the UK and paying the UK revenue services.

I'm surprised they have not been arrested when they touch down on soil in the land of the free

PS Presumably they have a corp structure where no US citzen is on the board etc.

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#32

07-22-2006, 05:48 PM

it's all about the knowledge and money ; ' both the gov. wants to control ;

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#33

07-22-2006, 06:12 PM

I don't understand why they have to make them illegal, don't really understand the logic, maybe the gov't is just jealous

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#34

07-22-2006, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by blazi

I don't understand why they have to make them illegal, don't really understand the logic, maybe the gov't is just jealous

It's a repetition of prohibition days, a touch of greed and "I know better" blazi.

Most other countries have no problems with gaming - they may have whatever laws, but it's not an issue.

The reason presented by the US at a World Trade Organization hearing was that is was "necessary to protect public morals or to maintain public order".

(Save time - here's the basics I posted elsewhere)

This issue has already been dealt with at the WTO where it was upheld that three US Federal laws, specifically the Wire Act, Travel Act and the Illegal Gambling Business Act were in violation of GATS. It was further judged that the purported justification and defense by the US that these laws were "necessary to protect public morals or to maintain public order" failed to meet US obligations under GATS.

It's also interesting to note that although the Govt of Antigua and Barbuda are the prime complainants, - third parties to this action include Canada, Taipei, European Community, Japan and Mexico.

Bottom line - the core laws under which David was indicted, are currently in violation of international trading treaties.

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#35

07-22-2006, 06:30 PM

Honestly, they don't give a fuck about him. They're trying to seize $4.5 Billion of the company's assets. That's what they really want and his freedom will be the bargaining chip.

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#36

07-22-2006, 06:33 PM

stupid arrest

...
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#37

07-22-2006, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by KRL

Honestly, they don't give a fuck about him. They're trying to seize $4.5 Billion of the company's assets. That's what they really want and his freedom will be the bargaining chip.

Sure... suspect that is the case KRL - also may not be unrelated to the WTO ruling (above). It took less than 48 hours after David's arrest to have a further WTO hearing and independent enquiry into why the US has not fulfulled it's obligations under GATS. A time period of 90 days has been allowed for completion of this enquiry.

That $4.5 bill is sure not going to come from any UK public company KRL. BOS plc does not owe any taxation to the US and has no business base there.

Sounds like you are referring to Kaplan who was the original founder of BOS? Sure, he is a US citizen and is most likely liable for US taxation at one point. He is still resident in Costa Rica operating prob one of the largest gaming corps in the world and earning more money than all of GFY together, - but members of his family have been arrested - some in Florida. It may be possible to access some of Gary Kaplan's assets. Little doubts there will be the usual extradition requests, but doubt the govt here are going to pass over any Kaplan assets (they have a habit of going nowhere )

BOS is now a UK company, BOS plc, and the prime officer is David who is a UK citizen. BOS has no business base in the US - only in the UK, Antigua and Costa Rica, but with gaming licenses in.. not sure exactly now, but over 60 other countries.

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#38

07-22-2006, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by grumpy

what he says.
If you play with fire you will get burned.

It's legal in the country in which he lives and operates his legal, publicly traded company.
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#39

07-22-2006, 06:58 PM

gambling cant really be blocked online...

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#40

07-22-2006, 07:17 PM

First off they were after this guy because his company had busses and kiosks outside american sporting events taking live bets and signing people up to the site. That is illegal. They werent after him because he ran a legal book. It is typical with federal charges that they tack on as much shit as they can for leverage.
This guy was a retard, and broke the law, end of story. It has little to do with the current gambling laws that are being tossed around. There has been an investigation on this guy and his company for 5 years. This was just the first opportunity they had to detain him. This guy was breaking the law, and rubbing it in the governments faces, and they finaly found a chance to nail him in the states.

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#41

07-22-2006, 07:17 PM

sure it should

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#42

07-22-2006, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by Well Dunn

First off they were after this guy because his company had busses and kiosks outside american sporting events taking live bets and signing people up to the site. That is illegal. They werent after him because he ran a legal book. It is typical with federal charges that they tack on as much shit as they can for leverage.
This guy was a retard, and broke the law, end of story. It has little to do with the current gambling laws that are being tossed around. There has been an investigation on this guy and his company for 5 years. This was just the first opportunity they had to detain him. This guy was breaking the law, and rubbing it in the governments faces, and they finaly found a chance to nail him in the states.

DUH?? What guy??

If you are talking about Carruthers - no, he had better things to do than piss around outside American sporting events. He has a real business to run.

"Retard" is not exactly the words to use about David Carruthers - especially from a idiot on GFY.

Ya really need to get your head sorted and your facts in order before spewing garbage.

The person you are prob meaning is Gary Kaplan and his family members. Tip.. avoid reading the media so much - it can cause ignorance.

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#43

07-22-2006, 08:49 PM

can the web really be controled ? Gambling should be allowed, as long as you pay your taxes and report your gambling...

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#44

07-22-2006, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by blazi

I don't understand why they have to make them illegal, don't really understand the logic, maybe the gov't is just jealous

i was thinking the same thing

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#45

07-22-2006, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by L0rdJuni0r

i was thinking the same thing

Can't have that shit and people enjoying whatever they want to do The reason for not permitting gambling is "necessary to protect public morals or to maintain public order".

So.. get your morals uplifted and not cause any public disorder and ya may be allowed to gamble

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#46

07-22-2006, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by Webby

DUH?? What guy??

If you are talking about Carruthers - no, he had better things to do than piss around outside American sporting events. He has a real business to run.

"Retard" is not exactly the words to use about David Carruthers - especially from a idiot on GFY.

Ya really need to get your head sorted and your facts in order before spewing garbage.

The person you are prob meaning is Gary Kaplan and his family members. Tip.. avoid reading the media so much - it can cause ignorance.

Ok first off - Are you saying that they can't hold executives of a company responsible for their companies actions? BETONSPORTS.COM Has been camping out sporting events for a very long time. They took cash bets, which is against the law. That is one of the main reasons they were targetted, and that is why they are now getting charged with every possible thing the government can throw at them. I think you are the one who needs to avoid the media because you honestly have no idea what the fuck is going on with this situation. When a large company like this has it's underlings break laws to promote their products etc. they are more likely to build a case against the executives of the company, rather than just jail the underlings. They built a case, and they waited for the guy to slip up and enter the us. He did, they were waiting, and now he is in jail without bail. All the other charges are legal fluff.

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#47

07-22-2006, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by Well Dunn

Ok first off - Are you saying that they can't hold executives of a company responsible for their companies actions? BETONSPORTS.COM Has been camping out sporting events for a very long time. They took cash bets, which is against the law. That is one of the main reasons they were targetted, and that is why they are now getting charged with every possible thing the government can throw at them. I think you are the one who needs to avoid the media because you honestly have no idea what the fuck is going on with this situation. When a large company like this has it's underlings break laws to promote their products etc. they are more likely to build a case against the executives of the company, rather than just jail the underlings. They built a case, and they waited for the guy to slip up and enter the us. He did, they were waiting, and now he is in jail without bail. All the other charges are legal fluff.

You are assuming again. First, BOS is a UK plc and not subject to the laws of the US.

Second.. you may get disputes on the fact that BOS plc ever conducted any business within US territory. You may also get disputes that BOS plc ever took "cash bets" outside sports grounds.

BOS plc has never operated in US territory and the officers of BOS have better things to do than hang around sports grounds touting bets either in the US or anywhere else. No director or officer of BOS plc is a US citzen.

There is a distinction between the activities of Gary Kaplan and his family. He did in fact found BOS and it is alleged he evaded taxation in the US. He is a US citizen. At this time, Kaplan is only a shareholder in BOS plc where he currently has a 15% stake - having sold all his other stock to BOS plc and where he was recently paid $29 million for around 18% of his remaining shares.

Kaplan now operates his own gaming corp which has nothing to do with the BOS plc UK. The affairs of Gary Kaplan have little to do with a company which has no business base in the US.

Assumptions of "underlings" acting of behalf of the current board of BOS are simply that - assumptions.

At this time the basic laws under which David Carruthers is indicted, namely the Wire Act, Travel Act and the Illegal Gambling Business Act are in violation of a WTO ruling and contravene GATS. The US government is well-aware of this, have appealed, and lost. They have been given time to correct this situation, but have presented excuses instead.

There is currently a WTO enquiry started and ruling will be given within 90 days. After that time, the US has a choice, either comply, or have tarrifs added to all US exports.

Kaplan may be a side-issue in this affair - and little doubts there is probablity he is in violation of US laws.

The main issue of BOS plc and David Carruthers is a totally seperate matter and more relevant to the gaming industry, WTO and the illegalities of US Federal law concerning international trading.

Last edited by Webby; 07-22-2006, 11:00 PM.

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#48

07-23-2006, 01:30 AM

Ok thanks for the lengthy, informed post, I realy do appreciate it. However as far as BOS taking bets outside of games, I personaly booked a bet with an agent before the bears/packers game. So I have first hand knowledge of this, as do alot of other people. It would be awfuly hard for someone to tell me that didnt happen, since I was there and all.

as far as the WTO goes I guess we will see, however it is laughable to assume they would jeoparidize world commerce by placing any kind of demands on the table that the US would not comply with. If there are any demands from the WTO it would be to grant bail, and enter into some kind of negotiations with the WTO. It will not be a matter of "free this man or we will place tarriffs". This world is ran by money, and in the end the WTO is going to side with the US government on at least some of the charges against him. That's the real reason they are charging him with a ton of stuff that doesnt seem relevant.

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#49

07-23-2006, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by Well Dunn

Ok thanks for the lengthy, informed post, I realy do appreciate it. However as far as BOS taking bets outside of games, I personaly booked a bet with an agent before the bears/packers game. So I have first hand knowledge of this, as do alot of other people. It would be awfuly hard for someone to tell me that didnt happen, since I was there and all.

Sure.. understand. The problem with that is whether this was the something from Gary Kaplan's days or after he sold out BOS. It is already known Mr Kaplan had a ... flippant regard for US laws - and still does - although he is a US citizen.

Originally posted by Well Dunn

as far as the WTO goes I guess we will see, however it is laughable to assume they would jeoparidize world commerce by placing any kind of demands on the table that the US would not comply with. If there are any demands from the WTO it would be to grant bail, and enter into some kind of negotiations with the WTO. It will not be a matter of "free this man or we will place tarriffs". This world is ran by money, and in the end the WTO is going to side with the US government on at least some of the charges against him. That's the real reason they are charging him with a ton of stuff that doesnt seem relevant.

The WTO issue has nothing to do with granting bail or charges against David - nor has it any rights to demand "free this man or we will place tarriffs"

The WTO already has made judgement and has not granted this in favor of the US and ruled that the Wire Act, Travel Act and the Illegal Gambling Business Act are in violation of international trading.

The above acts are the basis of charges against Carruthers - and deemed to be "illegal" under GATS. If the law is ruled illegal and the US wishes to change the law and avoid tarriffs, there are no charges against Carruthers.

Basically there is a choice - change the law and permit US citizens access to internet gaming (and some other stuff) or have possible tarriffs implemented.

BTW.. This action was taken by the Govt of Antigua and Barbuda, Canada, EU, Mexico, UK and others - the relevance kinda supercedes the current BOS matter.

There is also a scenario for the adult industry where any webmaster can be grabbed off an airflight and tried under local law in any country he happens to pass thru for possible adult-related offenses within that country - even tho he has no business interests or lives in that country. If all countries started behaving like that - we would all end up in jail cells over the world.

XXX TLD's - Another mosquito to swat.
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Pandemos

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#50

07-23-2006, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by onlineriches

nice to see the USA still thinking their laws apply to acts not committed on their soil.

The desire of various US jurisdictions to claim their laws have extra-territorial effect is becoming a bit of a problem. I'm wondering how long it will be before some european adult webmaster is arrested on obscenity charges when he gets off a plane in the US.

To be honest, I'm never going to risk going to the US.

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Where Woman > man
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