when will we round up this scum?

That is more or less the argument used by isolationists in the United States in the 1940s who opposed fighting Hitler. "Nazism is an idea!" "You can't kill an idea!"

And yet we did.

Thats the root of the _real_ problem we have today. Not the peons who we go after.

when pop rocks are outlawed, only outlaws will have pop rocks

Where you serious about the pop rocks thing?

I don't get it.

WHAT THE FUCK do terrorists want with candy?

[hint]
12Clicks made a joke and we ran with it.
[/hint]

but the Fizzies could be a national security issue, if they're still available...

I am an idiot.

Dont you get it?

Pop Rocks will be the newest form of terrorism in county fairs, carnivals, outdoor concerts, and all other events using outdoor portable toilets or port-a-poties.

What was once an ideal place to hide a portable spy camera is now an ideal place for candy terriorism.

someone goes in to the porta-pottie, squats over the hole, squeezes off a couple turds, and pisses on the pop rock, then BAMM! It rips him a new asshole.

County fairs will never be the same.

[This message has been edited by boneprone (edited 10-22-2001).]

[serious]
the FBI has to consider what kind of hell thousands of dollars worth of poisoned candy could create on Halloween night
[/serious]

the only way they'll get my pop rocks is prying them from my dead cold fingers

12clicks, you right inger you, part of the problem? I just made a little comment about perceptions...that's all...remember, according to Pat Robertson anf company YOU are part of the problem, with all your pornography tearing at the fabric of society.

I'm all for going to war on this, but I'm not going to advocate such things as torture. It's easy to sit atop your high horse and talk about bombing these guys...well, where's your gun? Why aren't you on the frontlines?

for any webmaster who thinks a comparison to terrorism and porn isn't true got ready a couple of guys like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Remember their little blame game after the attack? They were just ahead of their time...and remember who the attorney general is...he'd love nothing more than to lock up everyone who displays nudity on a website...you think his little "anti-terrorism" bill will stop at terrorists...wake up. Usually it's the liberals who are asleep and need a dose of reality, now it seems a few on the right wing side here need to wake up.

So, while I am all for retaliatory strikes, I could never condone torture tactics on induviduals who may have wanted to buy a little more halloween candy than usual...

What happens when this "war on terrorism" is over and you've started a precedent of no justice....do YOU want to face a jury defending cum splattered babes when some of those members would lvoe nothing more than to see YOU strugn up and tortured...you think that's far ftched? go viisit your local church and see who they rail against...

hehe, you ARE an empty headed woman,


No, the last fifty years of sending 100s of billions of dollars in aid to these savages is what failed. If these people were left to sink or swim on their own, they would not now be around to kill our people.

Just because you're afraid to take a stand, does not mean that your betters are too.

Well, thats how things go, but we haven't done anything directly to those people, at least not a thing that would justify what they did. It's not our fault that they are lazy and undereducated (partly because of their religion) and therefore they hate us for being better off. I mean, what economy can afford not to use women in the workforce and this way lose half of its GDP? Not to mention their more inhumane practices that would depress any economy, even one as strong as the american. In short, what you do to yourself noone can do to you...And the US has not only taken, as you imply. Another thing is if it wasn't for the oil we buy from those people, they would be in the same situation as the Somalians. Now in most Arab countries they at least don't die of hunger, and some of them are doing quite well, frankly (and I mean not only the ruling class).

SykkBoy2, you liberal, halfassed, dope.

compairing porn with Americans dying kinda proves my point about you being part of the problem. This isn't about porn or will it ever be.
Stop pretending that anyone takes Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson seriously. Their argument is as moronic as yours.

If you don't want to advocate torture, that's ok, there aren't too many people with the will to back up their ideals.

Where's my gun? it's close enough by to kill terrorists. why do you ask?

It's so easy for your kind of whimp to espouse you're philosophy when other people carry your water by doing the job you're afraid to do.

I gotta call you a dope one more time for compairing porn to terrorist murder.

Wizdom, you still shy away from offering a workable alternate solution. You point out what's wrong, but offer no way of making it right. What's the right way according to you? It sounds as though you want us to do nothing.

As for the last 50 years, the ONLY reason that certain people in the world think your way is because the US doesn't allow tyrants to run roughshod over innocent people. Also, those that would be tyrants just HATE it when the US (and Canada) send billions of dollars worth of aid to the people they are trying to oppress. I say tough shit. It's time to again kick some ass, and it's time to show some of these extremist muslims how it really is in the world, that the evil west is NOT the evil west they have been led to believe it is.

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12clicks, first of all, I'm a libertarian ;))

as for comparing porn to terrorist murder, I'm not the one doing that, the right wing religious whackos are and if you think they aren't, well, you can't be helped...who do you think the next target for them is?

...and if you think Falwell and Robertson aren't taken seriously, you are seriously mistaken, but it's ok, I won't call you a "dope" because, for now, we all have a the lovely freedom of speech...for now...

who exactly do you want to bomb? Afhganastan? Iraq? Uzbekistan, idunnowhatthefuckistan? ok, so we're bombing their camps...do you really think they are even hanging out in their camps waiting for the bombs?

You want to kick out every who isn't a citizen? Psst, one word: Indians ;))

this is what kills me, I make a satiric comment and you get all defensive and start with the namecalling...isn't that what liberals usually do?

As for my gun, it's safely tucked away as well...I'm more afraid of irate rednecks with shotguns screaming about anthrax tainted candy than I am the taliban boogeyman...

and something I want to ask all the last minute patriots, where was this call to military action when they bombed our fucking embassy in Kenya? Did it really take a couple planes hitting buildings on our own soil to wake the fuck up? That's the saddneing thing...and I doubt a lot of these who are in this hizzy to get the last flag at their local Wal-Mart store can even finding fucking Kenya on a map...

left, right, a lot of people in the country just don't get it...

no you're not.

no, you ARE the one doing it. you cheapen all the American lives lost with your drivel.

anyone here take them seriously, please speak now. (lets see how long it takes to prove your point)

I'm smart enough to know that our military knows more than I do about this and I know better than to question what they are doing with out facts to back me up. You, obviously, do not.

wow, you sure are tricky.

what kills me is when you call your kind on the carpet they cry, "oh, its satire"
The president you elected because your sorry ass didn't trust the constitution to protect your porn business sat on his hands when all this happened.
The presidents I voted for ALWAYS defended America.
Dope.

12Clicks has a point. I know it sounds pretty harsh, but this world's actions are based on survival of the fittest. Lots of pro's and con's to go with this argument, but sometimes the starving children commercials skew our society's perspectives. These are very complicated situations...


Picture the ongoing famine in the area...kind of Confucius meets Sam Kinnison:

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime." - Confucius

and

"You live in a fucking desert! Move to where the food is!" - Sam Kinnison

CD, if we would have gone after all the tyrant in the last 50 years, then today we would have a better world, instead, let me show you a few exemple of what we did:

The <a href="http://foia.state.gov/HincheyReport.htm" target="_blank">Hinchey
Report</a> [state.gov], an official U.S. government document. The report says
that there is no evidence that the CIA killed the democratically elected leader
of Chile, President Salvador Allende. However, the report implies that CIA
encouragement influenced the people who did kill President Allende. The report
says that the CIA supported the dictator General Augusto Pinochet in becoming
president of Chile, and that General Pinochet became known for his human rights
abuses. Note that the Hinchey Report is from a U.S. government web site.</p>


Another example is General Noriega of Panama who had a working relationship
with the U.S. CIA for years before he was accused of selling drugs. Was the
exposure of Noriega caused by his not taking orders? A quick
<a href="http://www.google.com" target="_blank">Google search engine</a> [google.com]
search for
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.google.com/search?q=Noriega+General+Panama+CIA&btnG=Google+Se arch">
&quot;General Noriega Panama CIA&quot;</a> [google.com] gave a link to a chapter in a book
by Noam Chomsky,
<a href="http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/sam/sam-2-05.html" target="_blank">The
invasion of Panama</a> [zmag.org]. Chomsky's book is called
<a href="http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/sam/sam-contents.html" target="_blank">What
Uncle Sam Really Wants</a> [zmag.org].</p>


Another link on the first Google page was,
<a href="http://serendipity.magnet.ch/cia/blum1.html" target="_blank">The Real
Drug Lords: A brief history of CIA involvement in the Drug Trade</a> [magnet.ch]
by William Blum. These sources came from a quick
<a href="http://www.google.com" target="_blank">Google search</a> [google.com].
Possibly better sources could be found.</p>


There is many more, if you want o look for them.</p>

we will all be dead before this is over with.

They peaked in political influence 20 years ago when Falwell was still running the Moral Majority. The Moral Majority has long since closed its doors due to lack of interest, but even when it was a hot item it was never held accountable for any deaths, webmasters or otherwise.

Both TV evangelists are down in viewers and have mostly been driven to cable, no longer able to afford the air time costs of broadcast stations.

"W" was the first Republican nominee since Nixon not to attend Robertson's annual fund-raiser in 2000, reflecting its decline in importance to the Republican vote.

Their only remaining importance outside their own narrow circle is in fundraising for liberals. They're used as bogey men, along with Newt Gingrich, in scaring the feeble minded into contributing money to opponents of Republican candidates.

We get it. You fell for it.

wizdom, you share the same shortsitedness as bill clinton.

Someone with your kind of time on his hands could find 1000 times that number of articles supporting the other side of your argument/.

when taken in that context, you see your argument is meaningless.

12 clicks, what do these misogynous remarks have to do with our discussion?

and

Your are not Napoleon but 12clicks!

12clicks, when you look at a picture form too close, you fail to see the big picture.

Come down from your big white horse from where you look at us all branding your right wing bloody sword of justice.

Our hands our as dirty as these guys are fighting!

well, obviously, you won't find support for Falwell and Robertson in this forum ;)

cheapening lives? Aren't you the one calling for the murder of innocents? I feel ALL life is precious...and I'm not even a damn Christian...

As for Clinton being soft on the Kenya incident, I totally agree...we should have taken action then...but I didn't vote for him, I voted for Harry Brown....so you voted for Bush who didn't finish the job in Iraq? Had he finished the job there, he would most likely have gotten re-elected...but like you, I don't have war experience to judge what couls hand/should have/would have happened...
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for defending ourselves, but I don't think rounding up innocent people in this country and torturing them is part of that...

I am most definately a libertarian (Hell, I don't always agree with the libertarian view either...)and a staunch defender of the constitution...sadly, it means I have to defend speech I don't necessarily agree with and there are a lot of things _I_ would personally love to see changed, but respect the constitution for what it is.



------------------
Evil is as evil does
http://www.darkdollars.com

When Winston Churchill invented the term "Iron Curtain" in 1946, encouraging the US to stand up to communism, nobody knew it would take 50 years to win the Cold War and freedom for Eastern Europe.

As it turned out, Truman, Kennedy, Churchill, and any other early cold warrior you wish to name, died before victory.

But, except for the "blame America" WiZd0m types, nobody thinks their efforts were in vain.

Defeating the World Trade Center butchers and their spiritual/political allies might take just as long, but it will be worth it too.

Their next target? Dude, they've had porn as their target for DECADES now, where've you been?

Yes, and we all know the types of people that take this type of shit seriously don't we? Real brainiacs that need a tele-fucking-vangelist to tell them how to think.

Again, criticism and negativity are easy. Let's hear solutions or get on with it.
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[This message has been edited by CDSmith (edited 10-22-2001).]

Public debate 101:

If you can't argue agaisnt the fact your are presented, then try to discredit your interlocutor!

i think we need to blow there whole country off the map, but if i said that it might start trouble, so i wont.

Thats not what I said BigDaddy, but do you think we are innocent?

Never did I tried to undermine the tragedy that happened last month.

Tell me, once we have flatten the few clay homes they have completely, killed Bin Laden, and destroyed his band of thugs, then what?

We go back as business as usual or should we look foir way to prevent this in the future?

Wizdom, you're still not saying what the hell it is you WANT. What do you want? Tell us the right way according to Wizdom. K?

All that flaptrap arguments you've presented is just that...fluff. In light of what happened Sept. 11th and since, it all is about a useful as the blabberings of the monday-morning quarterback. Hindsight is 20-20, right? 12clicks nailed it when he said he has the smarts not to question the motives and methods of the military.

When Bush 41 sent troops to arrest General Noriega on a drug charge Noam Chomsky was on a college tour telling anybody who would listen that Bush would NEVER allow Noriega to be taken alive, for fear Noriega would spill all the secrets of the evil things the CIA had done.

When Noriega got his ass locked up, Noam Chomsky went on to the next lie without every explaining how he got it so wrong. The only public debate tactic recognized by the "blame America" left is move to the next lie and keep 'em coming so fast nobody can dispute them quickly enough. Kill the truth with a thousand cuts.

That's one of the reasons Chomsky draws an audience about the size of my mother's bridge club.

Yes.

Feel free. Don't forget we're just trying to get 12Clicks his 9th DVD player.

Your serious ?

Ted Kennedy has killed more people with his car than we have with our pop rocks.

No country in the world is 100% innocent. But at least our motives are derived out of preserving freedoms and basic human rights, and in preserving our safety. What motivates the Taliban?

They mentioned the US support of Israel, The sanction in Iraq, The troops in Saudi, Aa bunch of other stuff, the list is very long.

Now I know you can't be serious - especially when talking about Republican Presidents. I'll give you safety but oil is higher up on the list than human rights and freedoms. And to answer the question you're posing to Wizdom, if the U.S. really cared about the people of Afghanistan, it would support the freedom fighters in that country. And I'm not talking about the Northern Alliance (otherwise known as the moderate fundamentalists)! Why is the U.S. supporting the NA? Because the NA will give them access to the Caspian Sea - and that's where the oil is. The U.S. will get what they finally want (it is no secret that gov't officials have long been in favor of disposing the Taliban in order to set up a puppet gov't) and the Northern Alliance will get rich. What does this mean for everyone else in Afghanistan - the same old, same old. And this would be nothing new for America - whose modus operandi has forever been to kill democratic movements in favor of puppet dictatorships that will serve the Western world's interests and only their interests. It happened in Guatemala, in Chile, in Nigeria, in Indonesia. How many more places does it have to happen before people wake up and realize that the U.S. does NOT always have freedom and human rights as their guiding motives?

If anyone really gives a shit about how the Afghan people feel, then why not start with RAWA who has been fighting for years to achieve even the slightest amount of freedom. http://rawa.false.net/us-strikes.htm

And here is the next sniveling liberal:
1.
What do think a suspect will say after the torture? Do you really believe a torture will give you the truth? The suspect will not tell any kind of truth, he will say only and allways what his torturers wants to hear (or what believe the tortures wants to hear)
History is full of examples how tortures works, and what it creates.
Some examples: during the inquisition ppl confessed that they had sex with the devil,
that they slaughtered and ate children and a lot more.
In the USSR they confessed that they were CIA agents or at least a part of the
jewish-capitalistic conspiration to delete the socialism.
What do you think a suspected member of BinLadens organisation will tell you?

2.
"
Nobody here is saying we should start going nuts, no one's saying that we should start grabbing arabs off the street and killing them.
What I'M saying is that people like you need to wake up and start realizing that you (yes YOU) are being threatened by other people in the world.
.....
They fucking hate all of us and the way we live and breath, and they won't be happy until we are all dead, in the name of their fucking so-called god Allah. Now, do you want to sit there and spout your pithy little quotes? or do you want to start thinking about better ways of protecting
our children from these fucking animals.
"
Cd, you and some others ARE going nuts.
There are a lot of threads on this board about killing every arab, towel or camel fucker ("I think we need to blow there whole country off the map, but if i said that it might start trouble, so i wont."). And I saw this kind of post on some other boards too.
The strange thing is, I didn't read anywhere anything about not to bomb BinLadens camps, I didn't read anywhere anything about not to kill and destroy BinLadens terror group. I haven't seen anyone approving the attacks. And I didn't hear this in any personal talk. So what the fuck are you talking about "we", "you" and "they"? Sounds like a well known game. Everybody with another opinion as CD is not "we". It doesn't matter what the topic is, but everybody with another opinon is a supporter of BinLaden. Or at least everybody with another opinion is guilty for the attacks and the deads.

"
Sept 11th is described as "a wake up call" and a "call to arms" etc, but I find that a lot of people still have their collective heads up their fucking arseholes as far as hat.
"
Huhu? Cd? What is this wake-up-call about? Do yo wanna tell us that the attacks were created by the dammend liberals with heads up their assholes?

3.
"it's ovious we did not learn anything from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, did we?"

Absolutly correct, wiZdOm. We didn't. Else, nobody would write bullshit like "You completely ignore the fact of the US involvment .....". The US politics in the middle east has absolutly nothing to do with the attacks. The US politics is very often very wrong (in my eyes), and creates sometimes war, hunger and dictatorship. But this doens't justify or excuse the attacks. Terrorists from whatever country are using this kind of thinking: the country X was doing Y, so we have the right to kill all ppl in Z. It's only bullshit.
Discuss the problems or mistakes of the US politics in discussions about the US politics, but don't try to create a correlation bewtween US politics and 6500 killed innocent ppl.

4.
"i think we need to blow there whole country off the map, but if i said that it might start trouble, so i wont."
Congrats.

5.
"It goes hand in hand with my theory that people in general are stupid."

I created this theory 20 years ago, and I own all copyrights. After I stopped with the alkohol and the drugs, I had to see that this theory is absolutly bull. So you all are allowed to use my theory without paying a license fee.

6.
My english, french and latin are much better than your mandarin, kishuaheli and japanese. So go fuck yourself.

7.
And now for something completly different.
Hey 12clicks, you are wearing the stars and stripes on your foto. I believe I heard in a news show some years ago, that there is a law in the USA about disparagin or dispeging or burning the flagg.
Does such a law exists? Or did I misunderstand something?

12Clicks:

Wouldn't it just be easier to just drop a massive sub nuclear pay load on all problem countries and just let them burn to death (of course that would be prime viewing on C.N.N eh???...then send in heavy machinery and build new condo's and rename the area to new U.S states??

Iran = New Idaho
Iraq = New Michigan and so on LOL

fuck...no longer would it be bad agri conditions over there...we have a lot of charred remains to use as fertilizer!!! woo hoo!!!

Okay now you're all just being ridiculous.

It will be called "New Texas"

Heinz, stop terrorizing me
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LOL...or find some DNA remains of Stalin and reprogram the dna and create an army of them to just plow out the arabs!! eheheheh


im drunk...sorry...i just think this is getting to soft on the administration's will power...we have nukes...LETS FUCKING use them before the expiry date eh?

There is much we can do.

Did you know that weapons are the #1 export of the USA? Some answers to our probs come from New Zealand!

"The Middle East is a breeding ground for much of the terrorism we see in the world today, largely because of the frustration of many in the region that the world community has failed to end the suffering of the Palestinian people, or to remove the sanctions regime against Iraq which is responsible for many deaths.
Many Arabs, and others throughout the Islamic world, see the United States as a major part of these problems, as the prime backer of Israel and the strongest advocate of sanctions against Iraq, which have led to the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent people."

As they also point out -- WE DON'T EVEN HAVE PROOF that bin Laden is responsible. Just the fact that we ARE SURE that it was bin Laden is proof that WE ADMIT that we knew that bin Laden was pissed off enough to do something this horrible to the USA.

Wow more answers from New Zealand! (found this randomly by doing a hotbot search for "sanctions against Iraq"

"Sanctions are an effective political tool but they must be properly targeted so as to hinder and disadvantage a regime or government rather than STARVE THE PEOPLE they rule.
New Zealand could also contribute to fighting terrorism by acknowledging and confronting its root causes.
We believe opposing the existing sanctions against Iraq and placing more pressure on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank would be good first steps."

One in four children in Iraq dies before the age of 5 due to OUR SANCTIONS. We have killed their children... Can you blame them for being a little pissed off?

"The Greens believe strongly that any military strike will inevitably create more terrorists and more terrorism.
The United States has a long history of inappropriate military interventions, be it in Vietnam in the 1960s and 1970s or its air strikes against Iraq which continue today. In its own geopolitical interests it has fostered dictators like Saddam Hussein when he was useful to them to combat Iran, and Afghani fundamentalists like bin Laden, when Russia was seen as the enemy." http://www.greens.org.nz/docs/press/010930terrorism.htm

Gee. Geopolitical interests. In other words this is about oil too.

What else can we do? The CIA trained bin Laden and helped create the Taliban! The CIA works in secret! We have no control of the CIA. They could be creating more terrorism right now and we would have no idea. The USA has been manipulating governments, leadership, and elections of other countries for a long time. Do something about the CIA.

What else can we do? Fix the news media in the USA. We knew something like this could happen... the WTC was not the first target. We could have done something about this sooner if we didn't have our heads up our asses. Maybe there is a reason we didn't do something sooner -- but that is a secret kept from the American people.

Read bin Laden's letters. They are doing this because they want us to lift the sanctions -- stop starving their people. We have more blood on our hands than the terrorists. Turn back the mirror on the USA. We fight in the name of God too. I saw a T-Shirt in Books-a-Million yesterday "JesUSAaves" -- everyone wants God on their side in times of despair.

So there are some answers for you.



------------------
<A HREF="http://www.thefly.net/topfly.html" TARGET=_blank>
Boneprone-4-Life Family Approved</A>

That means everyone in Los Angeles should leave?


[This message has been edited by TheFLY (edited 10-22-2001).]

There's food in L.A.

But you can't grow much food in LA without water! It's a desert climate!

whoops


[This message has been edited by TheFLY (edited 10-22-2001).]

Anyway to summarize my previous message.

Solution to terrorism:

1. Lift sanctions.
2. Don't allow CIA to work in secret.
3. Stop exporting weapons.
4. Take back control of the news media.
5. Reduce our dependence on oil.


------------------
<A HREF="http://www.thefly.net/topfly.html" TARGET=_blank>
Boneprone-4-Life Family Approved</A>

But I can admit -- maybe my list is entirely unrealistic.

Also there is a new frontier to fight over -- "Space".

I'm sure there will be many more wars fought over who will control space and how it will be used to control those on Earth.

Seems like a very difficult problem to solve -- since Space has no borders ;) Just like terrorism has no borders -- we have entirely new problems -- and possibly new solutions. I just got a boner.

Anyway I'm out of here.