The communist are coming and the Berlin wall is going up what?s next in America.

50...........

........................................

Go fuck yourself, you r not staying in a country you hate surrounded by people you hate just because your fucking biological pussy is living in Florida. Take her out ,do something, is the CIA preventing you from LEAVING the US? I cant believe your shit.

People call me crazy...

Go away anon fuck head.
You do not belong here.

No I am not kidding but I might be a little more worldly then you..
I am first generation in the states and most of my family is from around the world and my parents came to america illegally as most who built the US.

What are you afraid of anyway? somebody taking a hard labor job you would never consider. I hate people who forget where they came from and how it was taken from the Indians etc. But your probably like 10th generation in the states so you could never understand

You my friend are an idiot........

What do you think I have done and I have a daughter in the states that I have to see monthly so that is why I havnt full time. Hopefully things will change in the states but I'm not holding my breath

The ONLY THING WE CAN DO IS KEEP GEORGE W. BUSH FOR ANOTHER 8 YEARS! This way if there is anything left of the U.S. after his first 8, he can obliterate the rest over his next 8. Bush is killing your country.

He had to sneak out of Hungary live in a compound and immigrated to the US but I really dont see the differance because myh causins came illigally till they got there Green card then Citizenship and they own many dealerships in LA.

Most people who sneak across are hard working people who want more for there family.

the vast majority of immigrants to this country did not come here 'illegally'

Amen and all his Cronies

I really thought Being republican ment supporting business's and smaller Goverment. I dont see either happening. Our dollar is barely worth shit in 3rd world countries LOL and we are suppose to be the mighty Americans now we are just bullies

Thats because they needed the Labor. I firmly believe in the Strong will survive and I have worked with many illegal Aliens becasue my father had a consruction company. White boys would never be caught digging ditches or mixing cement.

Both parties are full of shit talking their "party talk" when they need your vote. But, it doesn't matter what political party you belong to, it is clear that the current president is destroying our great nation. What a nightmare.

I wonder if we can set up a policy to ship current, fat, lazy people and felons (who are U.S. citizens) out of the country in exchange for immigrants who are good people?

there was a point in time when this country required alot more manual labor than it does today, but that situation is no longer applicable - and it would be foolish to pretend that it did.



bull shit plenty of white people do that type of work. obviously not in areas where illegals have taken their jobs. don't assume that simply because you don't see someone working in a job that they wouldn't do so if given the opportunity and a fair wage

You could have fooled me they could stand on the corners for work just like everyone else. or are they to good for that? Because I have personally never seen it.

Not knocking you AF, but was the country not formed by "illegal aliens" landing on the shores and fucking up the native American population, thieving their land and stuffing them into "reserves"?

I think the term is squatting, but the squatters are now claiming "rights" over others who want to do the same - simply because they "formed a country" and now impose their own laws??

There's an irony someplace

Your damn good at nailing things on the head and getting the point across well.

And which country might you be from? I but it has a bad history if you go back far enough. Pretty much ALL land in the world was "taken" at one point in time or another. North and South America merely have a newer history then the rest of the world. You do realize there were Indians in Canada and Mexico right?

To step back for a second from the backandforth and answer your original question - the next step (if things follow a historical and logical progression) will be the organization of youth movements to support the Bush/the next inserted "leader", to ensure that the next generation will have a higher probability of complete unquestioning compliance - its been the standard track of every dictatorship/facist regime throughout history which this "administration" has followed to a tee

"George Bush is proof Intelligent Design doesnt work"

North and South America are poles apart and little in common. (Ya can argue that point over specific South American countries tho).

I never knew that Canada or Mexico stuffed the Native American population into "reserves" and are still ripping them off today??

There was also no hesitation from what is now the US, to invading other Latin American countries till they were kicked out of them. A main reason at the time was a desire for cheap labor, but now that's changed to moaning about them.

It's even more ironic that the cheap labor element is now coming from the Western Pacific rim and, even with low prices, the US still can't pay it's daily debts to the region, but is borrowing in excess of $8 billion a day - $2-4 billion alone from the Central Bank of China.

Well most people that aren't just 'visiting' here illegally but actually living in the area permanently would be looking for more permanent work than would be offered by people driving past a lumberyard or a street corner. So it would be counterproductive for them to go looking for underpaid under the table 'temp' work unless they were really destitute. the fact that they end up competing for the same type of work against people being paid less that don't belong here doesn't help them though does it?

Now if you're claiming that white people simply don't do this type of work, you need to see more of the country. many do and many have, digging ditches was one of my first jobs quite a while ago.

Canada did stuff Natives into reservations and Mexico treats its own illegal immigration populations a hundred times worse than the US treats illegal Mexican immigrants. Nobody's hands are clean.

I think Martin's point is that every country in existence today was formed by bloodshed and the lines drawn in the sand repeatedly war after war. It's an arbritrary process and not equal but it's the way of the world. If people want to argue for the US opening its borders to whomever comes in any amount, then every other country on Earth should do the same. The US accepts more immigrants than any other 1st world nation.

Suppose you could say it's "squatter country" where the squatters can't pay their bills but want to maintain a lifestyle by consuming 25% of the world's resources with only a 5% world population. It's just not a sustainable squatter lifestyle.

... and they complain and have "issues" about other squatters moving in. Yeah.. right


PS... You want folks with that mentality following you to Costa Rica Roger?

you're spending too much time in central america, homo.

There is nothing much to do except bitching and writing to your deputee who won't do shit about it...

ok Mel Gibson

now thats classic

Why is that?

Yep... just been reading some stuff on this - they are all equally pathetic when it comes to indigenous people.

Here's a classic load of bullshit...

Damn... so the squatters are not permitting pow wows Do the Native Americans need a breathing permit?

we're just having a debate here, it's unlikely that I'm going to take anything personally

No, 'illegal alien' would not be the proper term for those who explored and conquered a land. Europeans came to the land and fought battles with the indigineous population, and won. Every person living in this land today enjoys a much higher standard of living because of that, including descendants of the natives. What happened to their ancestors was hideous (and believe it or not whitey didn't appreciate the scalpings either) however it's in the past and we're living in the present.

Every generation living here since then has had a choice of maintaining this conquest and the vastly superior way of life that was built - and adapting immigration policies to adjust to the changing needs of those already living here - or simply letting everyone in without giving thought to the consequences of doing so. We have a good thing going here, it should be maintained IMO.

Well that is an advantage of conquering a land, the winners get to impose their own laws. What else would you have them do? Impose laws wanted by people who do not live here legally, belong here legally, or pay taxes at the expense of those who do the above?

So what youre basically saying here is that when England (Churchill) took over their "conquest" of Iraq in the 1920s and bombed the Sunnis with chemical weapons to control their uprisings, that was OK because they were just "maintaining their conquest"?

soooo.. just a little comparison here - since Saddam did the same thing after his conquest of the Sunnis (which I believe he's on trial for in Iraq), that is OK too and he really should be applauded for his control of his subjects?

I have no knowledge of that and am hesitant to offer an opinion on something that I know so little about.

Chemical weapons are terrible and I don't support there use anywhere unless there would be some dire need for their use (which I suspect there wasn't in that instance) however if they had a choice of maintaining control over a conquered land or letting it go, I can not blame them for attempting to do so any more than I could hold it against them for fighting against my own country during the revolutionary war here. While I may not approve of their means I do not disapprove of their intentions.

Applauded by whom? Us? No of course not. However those who benefited from his reign likely had reason to applaud it.

Know what you really mean't AF

Was just throwing up a scenario intended to show the flip side of the coin along with the foul history and track record - and agree that this is not a US "exclusive".

An aside... I got a lot of respect for the values of Native American people. They have been messed over time, but many still hold these values. There is one tribal chief I met a few years back in Arizona. Nobody knew his real age, - he was at least 90 and may well have been 100 and with a dry sense of humor. Last time I saw this old man was walking into the high temperatures of the desert (had to be well over 90 degrees) to visit another tribal community miles away on the reservation "because it was his duty".

It was also interesting to note that "whitey" professionals (doctors, shrinks etc) were visiting the reservation with their patients looking for "cures". There is plenty to learn from Native American "ways"

That might be the case but this is the first time I have traveled the world and feel like an asshole who nobody likes travel europe or anyhwere and see how people feel about americans they cant all be lying. I also agree with them 100% We should be looked at like leaders with morals not Tyrants or bullies. Seems like the US is afraid of the world being a much smaller place which it is. We should all be getting along

I'm not saying there isn't - their civilization did develop over many thousands of years along a very different path than that of europeans.

My point is that a lot of people seem to forget that modern day descendants of natives live a lifestyle vastly improved over that of their ancestors. In the southwest entire cities were constructed in cliff dwellings long before europeans arrived, real structures that provided adequate shelter and a real civilization.

However not all of the native tribes existed in a culture that advanced. There were also natives living in mud huts and teepees made of animal skins which were probably pretty damn cold in the winter. Starvation was likely commonplace. People were shitting and pissing in the same areas that they were walking around in and unless there was a lake nearby they weren't bathing very often. When they had to treat their ill, they really didn't have many treatments beyond simple herbs and other remedies that weren't as comprehensive as modern medicine. In short, is was a pretty shitty way for anyone to live, although they did have a better landscape at the time.

Now even the poorest of the descendants of those mentioned above is at least living in trailers or other modern housing structures that have indoor plumbing etc. They can get an education if they so desire and have access to other modern ameneties that they would not have without the intervention of europeans.

So their ancestors might not have benefitted, but those living today surely have. Maybe as you have pointed out their culture can help our own in some ways now.

Oh yea all those trailer parks and projects are much better LOL

Agree with ya AF - was just "reminiscing" and talking shit!

A good friend is a Native American tribal princess - despite she is a blue-eyed blonde She still maintains the tribal ways - beliefs and values, and has an interesting outlook on life. The color of her SUV, model of cellphone and dollar value are of little relevance in her "ways" - but people matter a lot.

And therin lies the rub - (sorry to sound like Shakespeare) - most governments throughout history have used some means whether it be the calvary using swords and rifles at Wounded Knee or Saddam using mustard gas on the Sunnis, or Hitler using gas chambers, or .....it could go on and on - the outcome is the same - the administration of death, torture or whatever to control a certain group of people has always been applauded by some population. In the American genre, it was the puritans that had left England and wanted control over the US real estate, in Germany it was Hitlers youth in their takeover of the world and in modern day Iraq it was the Shiite under Saddam that wanted the Turkish northern colonies. All applauded the use of hideous means to get them, so I guess all of them were "all right"???

Agreed - this country had the best opportunity that any nation could dream of after WWII. Every other industrialized 'modern' country that was in any position to compete with us - with the exceptions of Canada and Australia (which had smaller populations) - had bombed their manufacturing centers into near oblivion and were suffering economically, and we weren't to blame - we were a significant part of the reason they still had what remained.

It gave us a 50 year head start on everyone else and for a while this country took great advantage of that. Eventually it started to degenerate from positions of long term growth to an increasing amount of desicions made for short term gain, and that is what really started fucking this country up and is likely the real root of other countries having problems with us.

As you said - leaders, not bullies.

Missed that bit! Odd there was an association with Native Americans and trailer parks

The difference between the regimes you pointed out and America is that America acknowledges the past wrongs and has made efforts (albiet only in recent years and sometimes half heartedly) to right those wrongs or make amends. In other words, freedom and equality for all has become an American value. Those things didn't happen and would never happen in Hitler's Germany or Iraq under Saddam's reign.

I've been trying to come up with a reply to this that doesn't sound flippant or dismissive or callous and isn't naive either, and it is not flowing easily.

Of course it's not right. None of it is right. However whatever lead up to the need for use of force in those instances wasn't right either. Nevertheless, the need existed either in reality or in the mind of someone capable of instrumenting the acts, and the deeds occurred - nothing can change that, although hopefully it will provide a better frame of referance for those facing similar situations in the future.

Those who are lucky enough to remain living after such atrocities need to find a way to make the best of the situation they find themselves in. There is a significant difference between them lauding their own triumphs as opposed to celebrating their enemy's demise, even though the two acts go hand in hand.

Short term gain has always been there AF - and that's not a problem with other countries. Most folks have no problems whatsoever with the US, but they sure are pissed off listening to the crap being spewed by the government.

What is a problem is the constant consumption, bad decision-making, foul or non-existant foreign policy and a very severe inability to communicate and an arrogance in messing with the affairs other countries on the invalid assumption that "we know better" when in fact, they have no clue whatsoever.

Contrary to popular opinion - this has nothing to do with "hating America". It has more to do with, least lately, the government being totally crass and untrustworthy. Who knows, but this may stem from an element of immaturity and the election of groups of totally unfit and unqualified people - a number of whom have a track record that says it all.

Dunno AF.. but smell the country started fucking up years back. No country on this planet can consistantly show trade deficits over a long period of time and, at the same time, continually borrow funding from other nations. It's a totally unsustainable scenario - and the only way is a downwards spiral.

The US has a severe lacking of "product" to offer on the planet and badly needs a good manufactuing base. At the same time it remains the "world's consumer", but without paying the bills. It's only a matter of time till the shit hits - tho it's showing already.

Even the trailer park lifestyle standards can't last much longer

Mmmmmmmmmmmm...........

That may be an "American value" but sure as hell is not evidenced by real life situations.

Folks who need to talk about freedoms and values always seem to have a core problem with them. It's like individuals who persistantly say "Trust me", - they are the first not to trust.

Other western countries don't need to talk about their freedoms and values - they know that they have them already.

GREED SHALL BE OUR UNDOING. It is in our nature to destroy ourselves. We can either sit here and bitch about it and watch it happen, or we can try to reverse the damage that has been done. (My guess is choice A). We don't own shit. Have you met the PERSON who created the ground you walk on? If so introduce me.

i don't think it's ok for people that want a better life to achieve it illegally.

It's going to be option A

There are two types of people on this planet - the "people" and the "non people". We are the "people" and our greed buds need feeding while we turn a blind eye and boast about our "giving capacity". Occasionally governments pay lip service by highlighting the plight of the "non people" and politicians have a photo opportunities to show their "goodness".

We never hear the "non people" complain - the media are too busy reporting corporate financial results.

Greed and hypocracy are severe human failings. So much for "values" - they are just words

I totally agree also I would like to add we shouldnt have to resort to killing innocent people anymore with wars what have we really accomplished from it. we are much more intelligent now. but the people leading the country are not they are still in the ice age. that is why we need innovative young thinkers running the country for new growth and opportunities.

I dont understand how anyone can defend our Gov. in the way they spend out tax dollars

of course it has - but it's a matter of priorities - and my contention is that short term gain has become a significant priority over long term growth. or at least it has become more prevalent in the past several decades.

There is almost always an economic motive to these meddlings that is rarely admitted. It's much more palatable to the public to put on a happy face and say we're just being kind and benevolent rather than admit to imperialism and tell the public that their tax dollars are going to help private parties profit from conflict. It's short term gain for the few rather than long term planning for the country... even outright imperialism would be better than this if the benefits at least went to the American public, not that I would approve of it.

I agree with you. What may be the problem is simply a gradual loosening of standards to which elected officials are held to, and by gradual I mean very slow, over the course of a century. By their nature the positions tend to attract troublemakers, the problem is remaining vigilant about weeding them out. Something that becomes more and more difficult to do with an ever expanding government.

The trade deficits are troubling, but are also capable of being reversed. The national debt on the other hand is disturbing, although so long as those who are being 'borrowed' from are in no position to reclaim the debt, it is not a critical matter, but one that still needs addressing. The priority should be on stopping the increase of debt before becoming concerned with the means to pay it off, and that really is not difficult. That problem is mostly one of executive leadership, two presidents are responsible for the vast majority of the debt and the next will have the opportunity to halt or at least significantly slow it's growth.

Yes, that is the main problem. As a manufacturing center after WWII this country was able to sell products to the entire world and keep average blue collar workers - who make up the majority of the population - employed. Such an incredible amount of that advantage has been sold off and traded overseas that it is really becoming a significant problem. When I say 'sold off' I'm not referring to companies sold to overseas investors, that is not really the problem. The problem is the companies actually MOVING overseas and trade laws that do not protect the interest of the american public but instead favor the few.

They let in cheap imported materials that would be better kept out. DVD players etc do not need to be so cheap that eveyone can have them while the profits from them go overseas rather than staying here and flowing back around in our economy. Standard of living has very little to do with cheap and ultimately unnecessary trinkets and gadgets and ipods etc etc...

An economy built on consumerism alone cannot sustain itself. Someone needs to MAKE something and trade it for something that their neighbour MAKES as well, that is about as simple as one can get in terms of economic theory for a contained group.

The sad thing is that most people will read the above and from it surmise only that I am in favor of more expensive DVD players

Gotta say this is a great post powerful and so true

I'm getting concerned now - how high you want to go on the price of these DVD players??

Totally agree on your post AF




PS This thread is so damned out of character and too much content for GFY!!!! I'll post some "Would you hit it pics!"