in Austria - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4733820.stm
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And people talk about BUSH taking away freedom of speech???Originally posted by sarah_webinc
Hell, the bookstores are piled up with books about how he is the anti-christ, a murderer for oil, and he engineered 911, etc...
Meanwhile in the EU....
(which of course doesn't mean that I don't think the holocast happened. My great grand parents were in Buchanwald)Last edited by sperbonzo; 02-20-2006, 09:53 AM.Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing
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What a bunch of fucking fascists. And yes, prohibiting debate on certain issues for political reasons is fascism./(bb|[^b]{2})/Comment
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The one has nothing to do with the other. Even if the EU prohibited the use of the word "the", that still wouldn't say anything about whether or not Bush uses cooked muslim babies for breakfast.Originally posted by sperbonzoAnd people talk about BUSH taking away freedom of speech???
Hell, the bookstores are piled up with books about how he is the anti-christ, a murderer for oil, and he engineered 911, etc...
Meanwhile in the EU....
(which of course doesn't mean that I don't think the holocast happened. My great grand parents were in Buchanwald)/(bb|[^b]{2})/Comment
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If I'm ever down on my luck & homeless, I'm going to go into a mall an start screaming "the holocaust never happened!"
= 3 year$ free accomodation & food.Comment
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many countries have such laws in Europe, thats why some people were shocked when pimpdog posted here that Holocaus didnt exist, hehI don't use ICQ anymore.Comment
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I think Denmark's policy is best. Let people say what they want. Idiots will be laughed at and truth will prevail.Comment
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Holocaust denial is anti-Semitism dressed up as intellectual debate. It should be regarded as such and treated as suchSiglessComment
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If you don't see the contrast in how political debate in the EU is a jailable offence, and the things that Bush is accused of in stifling politcal debate, then I can't help you here.Originally posted by punkworld
...and by the way, everyone knows that Bush eats his muslim babies country-fried with grits, biskets and gravy on the side. Get it right!Last edited by sperbonzo; 02-20-2006, 10:04 AM.Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing
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Try screaming "JESUS DIDN'T EXIST" in the southern states in america.
Same thing, people say they support free speech, but they support popular free speech.
It's all goodComment
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Hmmmm... not so sure what I think of this one. I agree that the Holocaust occurred, but I also agree with free speech. The big question is where to draw the line.Comment
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You CAN scream that in southern states... Nobody can put you in jail for it, and if anyone beats you up for it, THEY will go to jail for assault and battery.Originally posted by pr0
Michael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing
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To say political debate in the EU is a jailable offense is an absurd generalization.Originally posted by sperbonzo
The truth is that both the US and EU countries stifle free speech in certain ways, EU countries notably through prohibition of "hate speech" (which includes Holocaust denial), the US notably through institutions like the FCC, censorship, obscenity laws and extremely broad copyright laws.
I disagree with both forms myself, obviously./(bb|[^b]{2})/Comment
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YES, where Do you draw the line ???Originally posted by MaskTVMaura
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They'll look at you funny and call you a hippy faggot. Maybe some bucktooth Willie will spit some chaw your way. That is hardly the "same thing".Originally posted by pr0
The Iranian President repeatedly denies the Holocaust. Let's lynch him!Vacares - Web Hosting, Domains, O365, Security & More - Paxum and BTC Accepted
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Wow, this is a bad decision
Especially after the cartoon row. It makes Europeans look like hypocrites.Comment
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Holy shit.
After reading that article I see the speech in question took place in 1989! He later on read documents that CHANGED his opinion. So this guy is being jailed for an OPINION he held over 15 years ago.
Wow. Just wow.Vacares - Web Hosting, Domains, O365, Security & More - Paxum and BTC Accepted
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Originally posted by MaskTVMaura
There is no line, either you believe in free speech or you don't. It's black and white.Comment
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I love when people form their own thoughs.Originally posted by MacDaddyPlaya
But Karen Pollock, chief executive of the UK's Holocaust Educational Trust disagreed. "Holocaust denial is anti-Semitism dressed up as intellectual debate. It should be regarded as such and treated as such," Ms Pollock told the BBC News website.Comment
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Actually, it isn't. Should it be legal to yell "fire!" in a full theatre? Should it be legal to encourage a raging mob to lynch a certain person?Originally posted by Mr. Soul/(bb|[^b]{2})/Comment
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Originally posted by pr0
Very well said. Home of the free! Land of the brave. MY ASS!Comment
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PreciselyOriginally posted by Mike33
What you've just described is genuine free speech. Anything else (regardless of how well meaning the motive) is political censorship pure and simple.Comment
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Those are esentially actions. It should be legal to publish whatever you want in a book. If you start picking out certain things you don't like and saying that it's not ok to think or say or publish those things, you believe in the opposite of free speech.Originally posted by punkworldComment
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They aren't essentially actions, they are speech. A book can encourage people to murder other people, and tell them how to do that - not much unlike a person encouraging a mob to lynch someone. In fact, a book can give clear directions for, say, specifically timed terrorist actions.Originally posted by Mr. Soul/(bb|[^b]{2})/Comment
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Originally posted by punkworld
Jesus Christ, I've already had this discussion with my 7 year old. You don't agree with free speech and you're desperatly reaching for excuses.Comment
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Not really. He agrees with free speech with responsibility, like most people do. Thats where the gray area comes into play. What is responsible and what isn't?Originally posted by Mr. SoulVacares - Web Hosting, Domains, O365, Security & More - Paxum and BTC Accepted
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trollllllllOriginally posted by sluttypinkComment
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If you want to refrain from having a discussion involving actual arguments, that's fine with me.Originally posted by Mr. Soul
You've had this discussion with a 7 year old, I've had this discussion with a fairly large number of university professors specializing in political philosophy, and have spent considerable time studying the works of Tocqueville, J.S. Mill, Kant, Kierkegaard, etc.
As much as you would like it to be, it isn't a clear-cut issue. Anyone with half a brain and even a remote interest in the issue knows this./(bb|[^b]{2})/Comment
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Sorry for not appropriately citing the reference. I obviously wasn't trying to claim this as my own thought. I was quoting from the article posted assuming it would have been read. I was merely trying to highlight a point. I'll be sure to use proper APA format in the future.Originally posted by Mr. SoulSiglessComment
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Exactly. I am for a maximum of free speech for individuals as is compatible with the free speech, individual liberties and safety of other individuals.Originally posted by Sly
Libel could fall under free speech, yet it can have severe material consequences for individuals and companies. It can ruin businesses as well as lives. For example, if I were to publish a book claiming person X to be a pedophile, that could ruin his life, or even endanger it.
Encouraging violence could fall under free speech, yet it can be a direct cause of, well, violence. Hate campaigns can do serious social damage. And the list, unfortunately, goes on and on./(bb|[^b]{2})/Comment
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I can understand in the wake of the the WWII countries like Austria and Germany felt the need to put in holocaust denial laws. I'm not comfortable with laws that supress freedom of speach even if I hate what is being said.
It is however, a mistake to think all of Europe has such laws. He is British and he was free to roam even though most people made it clear he was a bit out there.Comment
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thats ridiculous. only if the book gave specifics on something like bomb making should it be regulated. its not tom clancys fault if someone cant tell the difference between fantasy and reality and decides to mimic something from one of his books. would you recommend the cartoonists who caused all the recent violence be arrested?Originally posted by punkworld333-765-551Comment
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Not all books are fiction.Originally posted by bringer
A book can, literally, say that it is the religious duty of all muslims to murder "fags", and tell the readers the best ways to do it without getting caught. It can do it with the author's express intent being that the readers actually follow those instructions.
I am not talking about Tom Clancy here, nor am I talking about satire. That should be pretty obvious./(bb|[^b]{2})/Comment
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Just like there is debate as to whether or not the lunar landing was real, I can see the reason to debate whether or not the Holocaust was real. To stifle a person for their opinions (albiet very unpopular ones) under ANY guise (even if it's anti-Semetic) is to create the precedent for other topics to be stifled for less honourable reasons.
I'd rather err on the side of people being able to express their opinions on ALL topics rather than let my government decide what I can and cannot form my own opinions on. Maybe that makes for a world where every lunatic with an idea can say what they want, but isn't that how we changed our minds from thinking the world was flat to learning it's round?
For all the hate and ignorance that can come of it, I still think free speech is more important than preventing people from making racist comments.Comment
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You have to admit there's a huge difference between a Tom Clancy thriller novel and the Anarchist's Cookbook.Originally posted by bringerVacares - Web Hosting, Domains, O365, Security & More - Paxum and BTC Accepted
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Have you ever even been to a 'southern state'? Please give examples of court cases where people were put in prison for saying this, or injured by someone, or even ridiculed.Originally posted by pr0Comment
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WTF are you talking about??? Do you have any idea?Originally posted by czarina
Please name the person that went to jail for that in the US??? Please name the state where it is a law that you can't yell "Jesus doesn't exist".
Sorry, but that was the 2nd most clueless post on this threadMichael Sperber / Acella Financial LLC/ Online Payment Processing
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so you want to rely on the court to determine intent? what if i write a book about a guy named omar who believes its a muslims duty to murder all "fags" and i detail how he does it? is that ok? if it comes down to intent, all that needs to be done in your eyes to make it "legal" is to add a fictional character and making it a story instead of a training guide.Originally posted by punkworld
as i said, if the purpose of the book is to detail the construction of illegal devices, then it should be regulated.Originally posted by Sly333-765-551Comment
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Yes, I do rely on courts to determine intent.Originally posted by bringer
For example, when someone drops a brick from a roof and thereby kills someone else, I rely on the courts to figure out if it was murder or a clumsy construction worker.
There are gray areas, and it's the job of courts to determine what falls into which category./(bb|[^b]{2})/Comment
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