Guns, violence, and Europe

if no one had guns no one would need guns. try to kill more than one or two people with a baseball bat.

interesting links:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...-with-firearms

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...rms-per-capita


i wouldn't go to south africa

Yeah, you don't normally hear of drive-by stabbings.

Or Thailand for that matter!

i was surprised about that - since i wanted to go there next year.

Me too. Columbia and South Africa I can understand for obvious reasons. But Thailand?

In South Africa more people are killed with machetes that are killed with guns in the U.S.

Scary stats...

As far as I know the most gun assaults happen in UK where it's illegal to posses a gun.

I always wanted one but wouldn't want to wear it anywhere, it's too dangerous and I know that as far as I am usually very calm I can also get a blackout once upon a time.

Also, as one of my favourite authors Geoffrey Canada confirmed, your self confidence raises pathologically and you are more likely to get involved in serious conflict while having a gun.

The stats will be nowhere so close to US, US rules in armed assaults per capita.

Here if you are an idiot, jerk and worthless person, it's is still enough social help to keep masses of trash out of serious crime.

imagine what would happen if they all had guns

They would make a lot of noise and probably shoot themselves more than what they are shooting at.

Well here gun crime seems to have settled down no more battles in the street and I think the last shooting was a year ago.

The first time I went into the angling shop here I shit myself glocks, Klashnikovs, pump action shotguns on the wall and the ammo sitting on the shelf.

No wonder the gun crimes low here with the police and private security firms having a shoot to kill and dont worry about the questions later policy.

I think those numbers are a little off, especially for those third world contries.

I believe even to the local statistic numbers with about +-50 pct. tolerance, as far as I have gone through the process how these stats are taken

I don't have much to back it up, but from experience, I've found that areas with less restrictive gun laws have less criminal and accidental shootings due to it being more common to own them. Meaning if its acceptable and common to own guns, more people are educated on their proper use.

Now, that's a large assumption mostly because there are always jackasses who go out and buy one because they can and choose to figure it out as they go rather than educate themselves.

Its a hard one - things have gone too far in the US.

Good people need guns to protect themselves from from the bad people with guns.

I dont think we have reached that 'critical mass' in the UK. If we crack down now we can avoid the mess the US is in.

There's no guns and violence in Europe. Only free love and legal prostitution.

Well said I think switzerland still has the lowest gun crime in Europe because it is compulsory to do weapons training at least thats how it used to be

A well armed society is a polite society.

What most pro-gun people fail to admit, or even realize, is that it is *because* of the gun laws that bad people have the guns. So it's a vicious circle that will never end:

-> More guns bought by citizens means more eventually find their way into the hands of criminals (or insane people who shoot up malls)
-> Leads to more gun violence (by criminals)
-> More desire and perceived need by citizens to protect themselves

Unfortunately, in the U.S. there's really no way of going back. If the laws were changed prohibiting citizens to purchase or own guns, violence would skyrocket as the only ones with guns would be criminals, eventually. So unless they first get the guns out of the hands of criminals and remove illegal firearms from society, and *then* stop gun sales altogether...

(Read: Ain't going to happen)

Removal of all guns isn't the answer though. I own many guns and enjoy shooting them, but I'm an educated owner just like millions of other people in this country are. I'm all for required education when purchasing a gun, I think education would work better than just removing them all together. If for you no reason but your last point. Crime would skyrocket when criminals know that people couldn't defend themselves.

Not to mention, if citizens aren't allowed to defend themselves, who is left to do it? The police are busy enough dealing with all the nonsense that goes on in a normal day, so unless they are able to respond to my call that there is someone in my home with a gun within 10 or 15 seconds, I would rather just take care of it myself. Not to mention, most cops can't shoot for shit.

Would agree with that Ma D

Every time a shooting spree comes up in US media, the same old questions are asked. The current mall shooting has the same ingredients - unbalanced person who has "rights" to carry a weapon and has easy access.

The unnerving bit is that any gun owner can become "unbalanced" at any time in their life - so plenty more shootings to come....

I lived 10 years in South Africa up untill December 2006, I have NEVER EVER heard of anyone killed with a machete and the pic is definately not taken in South Africa.

As for guns - millions of them + millions of illegal ones and the highest murder rate with guns/per capita in the World.

This is a complex conversation... as most of western Europe has disarmed their populations for decades/centuries AND it is part of their agenda to indoctrinate their children into believing they are "bad". The US had to arm both the UK and France during WWII. After the war the governments of these nations confiscated the guns. The German armies could not have entered France if they were armed to the teeth (see Switzerland below). It is the mindset of, "Government will clothe, feed, and protect you". If you are threatened by another human, stop, call the police, and wait.

In Switzerland, all males over the age of 18 are part of the militia (no army) and have a fully automatic weapons in the house. Yes, fully automatic military style weapon(s) with thousands of rounds of ammunition. Switzerland does not have the "gun issues" that we have... if you believe we have "gun issues".

The question you should be asking is, "What country in Europe has more people drugged up on anti-depressants and allows these people to have guns?". Almost all of these recent shootings were done by people on Prozac and had access to firearms.

-dd

For full disclosure I have fully automatic machine guns, pistols, shotguns, and rifles. I would not live in a country or state (long term) that banned gun ownership. Guns are not the problem... people are.

I thought I knew everything about WWII but never gave consideration that entire populations were armed because of the war. The landscape must have been littered with firearms; What in the world did they do with them?

And they allow citizens to own full automatic weapons in Switzerland? I never knew this. Wow.

Read this:

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0794d.asp

Allow?

It is the -> DUTY <- of all able bodied Swiss males.

The Swiss do not take their liberty and sovereignty lightly. The main bridges, roads, etc. into Switzerland are wired with explosives at all times.

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/Swissin...05&sid=4123773

So as an invading force you are confronted with:

1. Once you enter Switzerland they will blow the bridges and roads - you can not leave

2. All able bodied men are armed with machine guns and they can shoot



-dd

Are you going for dumbass comment of the month or something?

Omaha, Nebraska:

http://www.ketv.com/newsarchive/14785654/detail.html

"A friend of Hawkins, Shawn, told KETV NewsWatch 7 said Hawkins had been on antidepressants. He was staying with friends in Quail Creek, the friend said, and he said Hawkins had recently begun bouncing from job to job and making "some bad judgment calls." Shawn said he was shocked to hear it was the man he calls "Robbie." Shawn said he had heard through the grapevine on Wednesday that Robbie was suicidal."


Virgina Tech Shooter:

http://www.newstarget.com/021798.html

"The Chicago Tribune reports that Cho Seung Hui, the Virginia Tech shooter who killed 32 fellow students in a shooting rampage, was taking antidepressant drugs. This is not the first time a school shooting rampage has been linked to antidepressants. The infamous Colombine High shootings took place almost exactly eight years ago, and the shooters in that rampage were also -- you guessed it -- taking antidepressant drugs."


Red Lake Highschool Shooting:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/26/na...partner=rssnyt

"On Friday, as Tammy Lussier prepared to bury Mr. Weise, who was her nephew, and her father, who was among those he killed, she found herself looking back over the last year, she said, when Mr. Weise began taking the antidepressant Prozac after a suicide attempt that Ms. Lussier described as a "cry for help."


Columbine:

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9904/29/luvox.explainer/

"Reports surfaced Wednesday that one of the gunmen in the Littleton, Colorado, school shooting, Eric Harris, was rejected by Marine Corps recruiters days before the Columbine High School massacre because he was under a doctor's care and had been prescribed an anti-depressant medication."

Awesome read really - thanks for the link. I've often wondered why the Nazis didn't go and take their chocolate. Now I know.

It's not the gun but the man behind it, people kill people, guns and knives are harmless...

So to protect the idiots from themselves and the people on the other end
of the gun it's better to restrict ownership of guns...

b.t.w. My country isn't even in the nationmaster list......that could be of 2
reasons...we're either smart enough not to kill eachother or because we have
very strict fire arms laws....I'll let you decide on this one

I have never seen a gun here in norway... lol

is that an opinion or a fact? sounds like bullshit
dont be such a fucking retard, research your facts, there is no way in hell england has moer gun assaults than usa, what a fucking moron you are
IMO we are noway near the stage of america, the only reason you think its bad is because you read alot about it in the media and on tv. whenever someone dies it will be in the newspaper near the front. and its occasionaly that happens.

The media is spinning it well. No way is gun crime here bad, have you ever even seen a handgun while walking around in the past 10 years? likley answer no. I certainly havent. only come across legal hunting shotguns.

ha, i thought so. seems to be some fake stats in this thread.

People seem to miss the point that it isn't the guns that are killing people. It is crazy, unstable or pissed off people killing people. Sure it does make it easier for some loonies to kill more people from time to time, but if they really want to kill people they will.

Personally I like knowing that if someone is trying to kick down my door at 3am that I have a means of dealing with them other than calling 911 and hoping that they show up before some crazy is in my house messing with my family.

Ah and now we have a REAL moron / moron crash in here! As far as I believe this was a thread dedicated to EUROPE AND FIREARMS, do you know where Europe is? it's that huge bunch of different states with weirdly speaking people over the Atlantis.

My source was something as a magazine for firearms and shooting that I read way back in 92 /93 if I remember well, there were pushes to restrict the legal posession of guns at that time.

And it actually showed that almost no legally held guns are used in armed assaults, and UK where it's totally illegal had serious armed assaults crime rate.

is that enough for another moron reply? The good thing is that I am going to doublecheck that so that you made an idiot of yourself will actually educate me.

Ok I confirm it had to be a super biased article, according to these stats there is a bunch of countries in front of UK in Europe.

Gunners will always advocate the possession of guns.

Actually my country is no.12 in the world !

DON'T FUCK AROUND wankers or I'll wipe you out!

LOL

it's anyway kavkaz and former yugoslavia guys who do the most killing around here so it's a totally non sense statistics btw...

you know I LOVE this KEYBOARD FIGHTING, it's so COOL and safe to call someone a moron, you ARE SUCH A ROUGH GUY, you feel so good once you hit the REPLY BUTTON, you are SUCH A BADASS GUY that you can JERK OFF IN FRONT OF THE MIRROR!

Let's troll!

Carlos, relax, it's just scottybuzz.

Nothing to get worked up about. :Dk




With regard to the "South Africa" comment and the machete killings etc, I think the guy wasn't referring to the country but the entire southern half of Africa.

Let's be real, I'm sure in all the shit that went on in Uganda, congo, angola etc over the years there were a few machete hackings.

Well, at least you won't see much guns around here, most of the violent guys fight with their fists instead of guns...

Ok, so Rochard if you want a serious contribution, I can tell you what I believe are the little differences between US / Europe what guns and violence.


Firstly, I will not hide that lots of this is affected by reading native autors such as Geoffrey Canada or Zbygniew Brzezinski.

1) the problem of racial seggregation and poverty

it was almost like 33 pct. of afro's in US living in poverty at the start of the 90's / the slums and ghettos they live in are only comparable with third world countries, almost like 11 pct. of whiteys too

It's also 50 pct. of all prisoners beeing afro's

My commentary:

You know, from my experience we have serious trouble with gypsies around here, they are too lazy, too degenerated, 95 pct. unemployed they can't read they don't know the language and none of the role model gypsy family worked in the past 100 years time. That's the only ghettos we have around here.

But thanks that they are so donated from the idiotic social system, practically don't pay rent and get lots of transfers so they get on and don't need to assault you and can live in a community and maximally stay with pick pocketing, if you armed them - now that I can imagine we could be in a deep shit

2) the cult of beeing armed, incredible gun coverage and therefore incredibly simple access to them - no matter if legally or illegally


The kids in the slums talk about guns like it was a new car or something, first thing they want to feel self confident is a gun, there is no other country as US to have such a teenage murder ratio, there is more guns among the regular population in US than many national armies have and it's very simple to get a gun / if legally or illegaly

My Commentary:

It's not easy at all to get a gun around here, you have to be 21, need to go through psycho tests, pay a fee and pass so called "gun passport" exams. You will most likely get rejected if you not intend to be a sports shooter or use it within a security agency or something.

To get gun illegally is also not easy at all (I even tried it), cause all guns are registered and your guns get checked at avery possible occassion, you can't buy ammo without disclosing your gun passport and the registration number of the gun to doublecheck. Of course there is always way out, but it's really tough to get and maintain a non registered gun.

99 pct. of all gun crimes happen of course with illegally held guns around here

3) general acceptation of violence and the serious drug sub culture

Again, mainly the less prisor parts of the social spectrum are influenced by the mass propagation of violence in massmedia, it's a social experiment where the results are just about to be seen in the most serious teen gun assault crime rate in the world.

Then, especially the big cities are flooded with drugs and the revenue from drugs at the start of the 90's was estimated around 100 billions dollars.

My Commentary:

I don't care if someone shows violence in its real form like Takeshi Kitano for example, but thanks to globalization and fall of the iron curtain the whole world now has the unique chance to be fed with the most horrible shit that was ever produced for TV.

Don't let me be mistaken but there is no other country with such a "real badass" cult as US, and especially some of the recent movies where hero is a drug dealer shoots one cool blurp after another between wiping out one guy after another, black morons who are rapping about what a criminals they are hence they shit gold at home and their texts are written by a taleneted white female writer from the midwest, specialised on how to attract the masses seriously confirm this to me.

I can only say dope is never a good thing, it was really introduced here after 89, and it still is only a matter of two or three biggest cities, thanks god for the serious alcoholic culture around here where drugs practically don't exist in most of the country, because it's also a serious stigma that's not accepted at all.

Yet the young idiots are again raising up with drug propagating (yet never drug taking) idols so this general anti drug opinion will change soon too.

4) in connection with the massacres - the cult of success

Don't get me mistaken I guess US people are hard working, results oriented it's all a good thing, but there is so strong cult of beeing succesfull that some of these mentally unstable entities just are not able to cope with that anymore, if you go after a rat and she is in the corner - she will bite you real bad.
I am almost sure that's one of the factors where blackouts and violence come from.

My Commentary:

Ok, I believe many European people are spoiled as shit, they are not used to move for work, they are not used to work overtime, they are used to get everything for free and have many benefits, they don't need to be rich it's just to have what the neighbour has and why would I work harder when I can be in the pub or with my family?

Now let's talk about the our real white trash or people who are not that sucesfull - well they are here! they occupie the public transport, they occupie those small gambling bars, they are sometimes loud sometimes drunk always have their own super pathetic story why they are broke but NOONE CARES!

It's their shit! They are fed by the government and have their trouble! but noone will come over and say "fuck of looser" they will have their community and they will be happy, cause they will have anough money for drinks / booze / and enough guys around to confirm that it's "bad luck".

Noone will push them to the corner / not directly / not indirectly there is no cult of success, there is still the cult of "not to stand out of the crowd" and everyone who has more money "has to be a cheater"..

So this is a clean cultural difference, but there is no other country where so many people would regularly go "gun crazy" than US.


That's all, now let's get back to work.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...crime-assaults

wow

Washington DC has a ban on the ownership of guns, NRA taking it to the Supreme Court in Feb: http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=3308

Interesting stuff about constitutional rights being limited.


Fight the Unpatriot Act!

idiot. next time if you are going to quote a source from 92/93 at least reference it.


Italy is the worst in the world for violence






in 1567



fucking hell. I am all for passing an iq test before you are allowed to use the internet.

pass me some of those pills your on sunshine

A few reminders.

Fact: As the courts have affirmed time and time again, U.S. citizens are not constitutionally entitled to police protection.

Our forefathers declared the citizen as the ultimate authority in our country. The Founding Fathers knew that this authority must be backed by lethal force, and for the rest of time. We're a Republic. We're not a Police State.

Just as having a populace trained in CPR and the Heimlich maneuver can be an asset to society, so can be an armed society properly trained in weapon use.

The tragedies are a shame when they happen, but perhaps they're a part of living in a free society with mentally unstable people.

I say the answer's in treating the people... and many of you are telling me the answer's in limiting the freedom.

Let's not forget that, historically, the first step toward tyranny has nearly always been disarming the populace.

It continues to baffle me how many people are consistently willing to surrender their liberties for an illusion of greater security.

Nah, in general the further North in Europe you go, the harder working and more successful the people are, nobody gave anything for free to Norway, they absolutely earned their quality of life, on the other hand if you go South people are lazier, party more, and work less. I believe it is genetic to a degree, the harsher the conditions you live in, the harder you have to try, and that gets passed from generation to generation.

but you made some pretty good points in your post