Originally posted by bhutocracy
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I read the thread properly. You didn't say that anywhere. Well, except in the above post, of course.
Whitehat is for chumps
If you don't do it, somebody else will - true story! -
maybe it was here in a post that you quoted me on?Originally posted by bhutocracy italics were to show context.
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You win. I have better things to do that to argue with walls.Originally posted by bhutocracymaybe it was here in a post that you quoted me on? italics were to show context.Whitehat is for chumps
If you don't do it, somebody else will - true story!Comment
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I gratiously accept.Originally posted by DamageXComment
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anyways.. you guys should try dabbling in a less educated market where clients aren't exposed directly to the whole international market of prices.Comment
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You all must be aware of a simple thing: in the internet related domanin we have a global market. This means that people from all over the world compete for the same resources (money). This means that the market regualtes itself globally (meaning that the salaries in the 3rd world coutries increase and the salaries in USD ans EU will either decrease either there will be a lot of unemployeed people).
In other words: you get what you pay for. A well established company from any country in the world will ask you more money for a high quality design than a company that still has to prove that can make designs.
Moving to this case: from the designers point of view it is normal to assign less developemtn time for a design that pays 100$ than for a design that pays 600$. Or if I have more designers I assign the best for the 600$ one and the worst for the 100$.
I am new in the porn industry but I am running a succesfull business in software development for almost 6 years now. From my past experience I can tell you only one thing: do the things right and you will succeed in ANY business. You do not need to be better than the best, hell, you do not need to be as good as the best. All you need is to be as good or a little better than the average and you will make money.
EgomancerICQ: 95-239-282
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Oh yeah...Originally posted by Egomancer
I am average, never claim to be more. I charge what a job is worth to me for my time and efforts. I am reliable, fast and usually available because I am not a large company or an outsourced company. Sometimes a client pays more for the convenience of availability and getting the job done. And did I mention I speak english?Comment
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Yeah.. hence me suggesting looking into uneducated markets.. Even on a basic and very obvious level, most adult designers miss out on hosting revenue because all their clients have better hosting than they do whereas the similar sized and skilled mainstream team/sole operator the block over are charging 50 local businesses they've designed sites for $30/mo hosting and cramming them all on a $9.95 virtual account.Originally posted by EgomancerComment
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My guy charges $35 I think per gallery... I buy in bulk. I glady pay because his gal's kick ass
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You shoul duse 'cheapp markets' not uneducated. Being uneducated means that they are not able to do the job that needs education (training).
The funny thing is that I started as an outsourcer and in 6 years I got to get local work and outsource it to cheap markets. So basically I switched places. All that I can say is that life is ironic!
EgomancerICQ: 95-239-282
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best converting design for me when I used to push adult sites was shit that looked like it cost 12 bucksComment
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35$ for a TGP? Hmm, I charge one of my present clients 1.5$ per gallery, but the work is not exactly top of the line. The guy knows it, I know it, but when I make him like 1000-2000 galleries per month I do not think that I can handle so many at the 35$ price (and consequently quality).
As long as the request meets the demand and everybody is happy then all is fine!
EgomancerLast edited by Egomancer; 01-20-2006, 04:14 AM.ICQ: 95-239-282
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Hell a $600 dollar job is not worth getting out of bed for. Average contract for me is $8500. But then they are typically mainstream full dynamic sites. Don't know how a designer can talk with someone abou what they want and make it for $100, since that is 1 hour of billable time.Comment
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nono.. by uneducated market i mean the CLIENTS are uneducated. GFY is an EDUCATED market.. all the clients KNOW EXACTLY how much everything costs and how much they can get away with paying.Originally posted by Egomancer
Local businesses are an UNEDUCATED market because they don't have a clue how much the site and hosting they need to get done costs.Comment
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Bhuto - ok, then I suppose you are right!
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Originally posted by eroswebmaster
Yes, but remember, anyone who is trying to market a brand, branding can be negative OR positive... If you give your surfers a reason to associate your brand with negativity, they will do so.. people are more likely to jump the negative gun than the positive one.Comment
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Originally posted by thinkxFHG are needed, thats all, when we order its the paysite, banners AND FHG, after a month or 3 a bunch of new FHG with the design, but I gotta be honest making 100 FHG sound pretty boring to me, glad Im no designer
It's very difficult to continue to be creative and original, at that point.. It can be very tedious.Comment
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Lady, try to make 2000 FGHs per month at a top quality and we talk after that. Not to mention that you need to pay for that ;)
EgomancerICQ: 95-239-282
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Although I agree with you, I couldn't help but laugh at this one.Originally posted by bhutocracy
Whitehat is for chumps
If you don't do it, somebody else will - true story!Comment
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Originally posted by DamageX
MARKETING is the bottom line in "design". I almost hate the word designer, and the stigma that seems to be connected to it. A "designer" in this business also has to be a copyrighter, marketing director, market research analyst and a lot more. They have to know the market, know how to sell to the market, AND know how to create a visually pleasing presentation that will induce a "customer" to make a purchase. THAT isn't design, it's not making pretty flashy pages, it's MARKETING.... Far too many designers do great work, but can't market things. No matter what, I would take a design that was created from a marketing standpoint over a design created from a purely artistic/aesthetic standpoint anyday, and it will do better every time.Comment
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Correct!
EgomancerICQ: 95-239-282
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If you want to outsource any work to Romania - here I am !!!!
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Why would I ever argue with you?Originally posted by LadyMischief
Whitehat is for chumps
If you don't do it, somebody else will - true story!Comment
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You sell yourself and all the other designer in the biz short doing that. Seriously.Originally posted by Egomancer
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Originally posted by Egomancer
I would never even attempt 2000 in a month because I refuse to put out anything below a certain standard of quality, no matter how many bulk orders I take on... I refuse to shortchange my clients when they're paying good money.. I might make 500-600 galleries in a month, but they work, my clients are happy, I'm happy, and it all works out well.Comment
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Originally posted by DamageXWhy would I ever argue with you?
You wouldn't..you and I think with the same mind when it comes to marketing, half the time :PComment
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No, he's not. He's not doing the galleries himself, he most likely has some poor sod churning them out, paying him $3-400/mo. Add taxes for that employee (if he pays any) and he's up to say $6-700/mo tops. I'd say that's a decent profit. Get ten of those and it's a very decent living.Originally posted by LadyMischiefYou sell yourself and all the other designer in the biz short doing that. Seriously.Whitehat is for chumps
If you don't do it, somebody else will - true story!Comment
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Originally posted by DamageX
Heh.. back to oursourcing. I don't think I could in goo conscience put my work in someone else's hands, claim it's my own, and guarantee the quality. When I can clone myself exactly, then I will let someone else do my work, but until that point, I do everything all on my lonesome.Comment
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Lady, these are different demands, I mean he wants tons of pages sumary designed while you do pages that have more work put in them. Of course I think I can handle more advanced work but first I want to know the basics, only after you get to more evolved things.
Doing this I do not risk to blow my entire business up because I start doing things I do not know how to complete and destroy my client base.
Egomancer
P.S. I do not think that we compete for the same jobs ;)ICQ: 95-239-282
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DamageX you understood the situation perfectly. This kind of deals is developed by people that are payed with around 600-700 USD per month. I keep a guy doing this up to 3 months. If I see that he is hardworking and competent he moves to more advanced designs. If not then he will stay doing this forever (m,eaning a few months until he quits).Originally posted by DamageX
I like to keep my employees happy but everybody needs to start from somewhere.
EgomancerICQ: 95-239-282
WWW: www.webprogrammers.eu
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Y!MSN: lord_ender
If you want to outsource any work to Romania - here I am !!!!
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I'd like to believe you on the start-up pay of $6-700/mo, but I know for a fact that the job market in Romania is less expensive. You can get a qualified designer/programmer for that money. Grunt salaries start at around $250-300/mo. Even lower, most of the time.Originally posted by EgomancerWhitehat is for chumps
If you don't do it, somebody else will - true story!Comment
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Grunt salary is 300$ - 350$ but you need to pay taxes (which add 300 more). After that you have to pay the fixed expenses (150 USD at least) so you get very close to 1000$. Add my profit and you see that such a worker needs to do a lot of things to earn his money for a living.
If the salaries have been lower then I would made the things even cheaper ;).
EgomancerICQ: 95-239-282
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Originally posted by Egomancer
Probably not, I have a very well established clientbase, and 95% of my work comes from repeat customers, with a smattering of smaller orders coming in from new ones.Comment
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rigth on the money...Originally posted by DamageX
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the thing that gets me when someone wants us to make a stie, mainstream or not, they say we want it to look like this this and this. we try to explain what they not want to use this this and this, and they demand it. They pay the price, and then balme us because things dont sell.PornGuy skype me pornguy_epic
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What you do, in those cases, is get them to assume all responsibility for failure, if you go on creating it like they want.Originally posted by pornguyWhitehat is for chumps
If you don't do it, somebody else will - true story!Comment
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Originally posted by pornguy
Absolutely, I fully agree. It should be more of a corroboration if they want something that will REALLY work well, especially if they have someone who has experience in marketing. The guys who produce do so for a reason.Comment
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This where sorry to say, some people don't quite fully understand the bulk FHG market.Yes, but remember, anyone who is trying to market a brand, branding can be negative OR positive... If you give your surfers a reason to associate your brand with negativity, they will do so.. people are more likely to jump the negative gun than the positive one.
Please don't get this wrong. I counseled many clients on this and I won't spill the secrets behind FHG's.
The design of an FHG is to do a number of things and it depends upon the priorities the sponsor sets with their order.
Of course designed to sell is a priority. But most people thing an FHG's first priority is to sell to the surfers. Not 100% of the time.
Often its first priority is to sell the webmasters on using them. This is why so many people demand that the gallery be "pretty" rather than effective.
The surfer 99.9% of the time doesn't care how pretty your graphics are. They don't care if you spent 15 minutes, or 15 hours putting it together. They just want to see tits and ass.
So in essence branding rarely is ever negative because of design. This is why people were so willing to buy memberships to sites that looked like horrible geocities designs for so long.
Now, sure if you have some bad engrish on there. Or someone just fucks it up so badly I'm sure it can have a negative effect. But in general, a gallery that follows simple layout rules will have as much of an effect in branding as a pretty gallery if the branding is done right..and it's just so simple to do it correctly.For rent - ICQ 127-027-910
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Let me qualify once again my statements in this thread are solely based upon my experience as a bulk gallery maker.
For those who do more than just bang out galleries, your experiences of course vary and my comments don't necessarily apply to you.For rent - ICQ 127-027-910
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LOL touchéOriginally posted by DamageXAlthough I agree with you, I couldn't help but laugh at this one.Comment
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This sector of the porn industry started out very easily, most people were amazed there was even porn on the Internet.
What was available was pretty poor, look at some of my posts from 2001 about the standard of content. Everything was about traffic and the scramble to get it.
Today many are realising that traffic is not enough, you have to convert it. Design and content does the converting. So some sites are realising that while it's important to keep the traffic flow up converting it is even more important. Simply because by having good conversions you keep getting good traffic.
So more and more sponsors are looking for better designs and content.
The fly in the ointment is many still think they should pay the same momeny to a professional with talent as they pay to a monkey with a keyboard or camera.
But natural selection will get rid of these people, becasue the hardest person to fool these days is the guy with a credit card and $30 to spend on porn.
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It always kills me when I see 'designers' here offering work for super cheap. Doing so just causes a never ending spiral of cheapness. Diminishing returns if you will. And they are only hurting themselves. We have standard packages, and the bare minimum is $500, and thats for a simple logo. We usually have plenty of work too.
It always makes me happy when a customer likes the work so much that they overpay. Its happened a couple of times now, where we've gotten another 50% of the job as a tip. Treat your customers with respect, charge what your time is worth, and work well and efficiently and you won't have problems. Pricing yourselves into obscurity in the negative sense is just bad business.Comment
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As for me, I'll do the design that cost $100 but I won't spend much time on it. Moreover, it's gonna be very simple design. If you pay me at least $500, I'll make good effort making really good design that cost $500. Simple truth!Originally posted by thinkxComment
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Simple law of supply and demand and different levels on the buyer market. I'm not worried about the guys charging $100 for a design. If they were any good they'd get swamped before they knew what hit them, meaning they'd start raising prices fairly fast.Originally posted by toddler
The simple fact that they have to put the low price in their board advertisments asking for work tells me the exact opposite. If they actually knew how to sell themselves, then they'd know how to create selling designs too. But they don't know either. Whenever their designs actually convert it's because of either luck, the client doing a lot of good pre-selling, or both. But it's definitely not due to their skills at creating well-converting designs.Whitehat is for chumps
If you don't do it, somebody else will - true story!Comment
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It just seems like designers could make so much more money as affiliates promoting programs than they could designing for the programs. Couldn't these gallery submitters that make "quality galleries" make so much more than $35/gallery just by submitting the galleries themselves? Especially if they use the template more than once.Originally posted by toddler
It seems that every affiliate program bends over backwards to provide you with everything you need...content, hosting. Why can't you make more money submitting galleries, yourself than buidling them for the program?
Or if you don't like the work of submitting galleries, outsource that?
It sometimes seems like there are people competing to be bottom feeders.Comment
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Do you always get the same cut of steak at the local meat shop for $15 as you do for $7.95?Originally posted by thinkx
Its called motivation. Obviously if you're not motivated enough to pay a designer what they're worth - why should someone be motivated to hand you their best product?
Although I always turn out good quality for paying customers, I'll go the extra mile for someone who acknowledges that.Comment
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yea its poeple who dont know that what u pay is what u get alway get sucked in to the pricesComment
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Very appropo summation.Originally posted by Paul MarkhamBut natural selection will get rid of these people, becasue the hardest person to fool these days is the guy with a credit card and $30 to spend on porn.
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And that's exactly the case, for many. Few actually know how to sell.Originally posted by snowdog
Whitehat is for chumps
If you don't do it, somebody else will - true story!Comment
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