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http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm
very interesting read on the struggle......the mortal struggle.........between Christianity and Islam.......the history of what lead up to the crusades and how they were about power and control.........which all wars are about anyways.Comment
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I saw the movie, I have to say I was very dissapointed. Tons of holes in the storyline, as far as movies go it's simply not up to par.ICQ: 282814268Comment
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i liked the idea that honourability and being true to god were the theme in this movie, as opposed to doing what leaders in power say should be done in the name of god.
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http://www.variety.com/VR1117922320.html
Bound for 'Heaven'?
Pic has been accused of short-shrifting real history
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hmmmmmmmm............Comment
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The Crusades, like many movements in history, had many players and many had diverging motives. Some were threatened by the rising Islamic aggression and loss of Christian territory. Others saw a moneymaking/land grabbing opportunity. Even others saw it as a 'holy war' against infidels. http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0857642.htmlOriginally posted by punkworldComment
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Going to see it in a few daysComment
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Originally posted by Pleasurepays
If the movie wasn't about the crusades then what is the discussion going on in this thread?
Correct....and the people that they were killing in the Balkans were Jews...not armies, just civlians that were unlucky enough to be caught in their path, and were subsequently brutalized, raped, and murdered in the thousands...I think they went through the Balcans where they killed more people than they did in Palestine.
So.... Given your premise, what was the point of slaughtering all those Jews on the way to the Holy Land?The crusades weren't the cause of paranoid Christian fanatics, they where the result of fact. From the time of Mohammed's death Muslims quickly took control (from Christians) of Palestine, Syria and Egypt (once the most heavily Christian areas in the world). In the eight century Muslims had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century they conquered what is known as Turkey today (which was heavily Christian before than). The old Roman Empire was than reduced to little more than Greece, and by the Othordox Christians than reached out asking for Catholics in the West to come aid them in the East (at the time Christians where basically treated as slaves in Islamic countries).
In 1095 Pope Urban II called upon the knights of the Christendom to push back the Islamic conquests and aid their Christian brothers in the East, and that is what lead to the crusades as we know it. At the end of the Crusades (after many years of battle) muslims (unlike shown in the Kingdom of Heaven bullshit movie) where preparing to invade Europe, and where it not for the death of one leader, and poor management by another it is almost undeniable that it would of went ahead. The only thing that stopped it from eventuating was the rising economic strength of Europe. Without the Crusades, Christianity might well have followed Zoroastrianism, a rival to Islam that was driven to non-existance.
I'm not trying to bait anyone.... I just wonder what the reason was, and what it had to do with Christians defending themselves against Muslims....
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most likely, the answer is that they slaughtered them because they were there. why not slaughter them? everyone is trying to conquer their land... who needs the aggrevation of a revolt or needless fight against people who later have time to arm themselves and fight.Originally posted by sperbonzoSo.... Given your premise, what was the point of slaughtering all those Jews on the way to the Holy Land?
I'm not trying to bait anyone.... I just wonder what the reason was, and what it had to do with Christians defending themselves against Muslims....
it seems to me that you already have an answer in mind and that you are trying to set up an argument that you feel you can win.
the "stated reasons" are completely irrelevent. the REAL root reasons that drives people are always the same... you conquer lands and slaughter anyone who opposes you. you take their wealth, their land and their property all to enrich yourself, your people and better ensure the safety and survival of your own. every living organism and social organism functions in this way. why does algae kill? why do monkeys kill? why does any living creature kill? it all boils down to the same basic reasons no matter how you rationalize it - safety, security, defense, pre-emptive defense.Last edited by Pleasurepays; 05-08-2005, 05:44 PM.Comment
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i like the sets in the movie. they are spectacular. don't you think?! ;)Comment
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The notion that the crusades where about wealth is false, I believe. No doubt some where excited about the opportunity of making money, but for the most part the crusades (the first and following) where most definetly not about getting rich.Originally posted by punkworldComment
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It is impossible to justify every action of every war as holy and brave, that is true. Like any war the crusades where brutal, and disgusting (I am certainly not a warmongerer). But the truth is the killing of the Jews was totally opposed by both local bishops, the pope, etc and it was frequently preached that the jews where not to be persecuted. In modern war it would be consider collateral damage (damage that you can't really control - there was no way the leaders of the crusades could control every individual). Whereas the USA might kill a child in a strick with it's tactical weapons, it can hardly be said that their aim in going into war was to kill that child. War is brutal, not everything that happened in the crusades was noble (quite obviously), but the idea that Islam was bent on coexistance until a bunch of religious fanatics from the West came down from nowhere (with no reason) to start killing them, and raping the land is most definitely false.Originally posted by sperbonzoI'm not trying to bait anyone.... I just wonder what the reason was, and what it had to do with Christians defending themselves against Muslims....Comment
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'most likely' - how would you know what was most likely? You quite obviously have no idea what you are talking about.Originally posted by PleasurepaysComment
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why? does there have to be a clear, concrete cause that you agree with or can accept? "we did it for god" - "we are doing this for Allah". i know what the history books say and i know what the chain of events are. do you really believe that christians rolled across the globe trying to spread the message of Jesus of love and peace? or that muslims conquered most of the civilized world before them because they wanted to spread the kind word of Allah for the benefit of mankind while as christians did, they slaughter anyone who does not convert?Originally posted by Odin88
why do you need a sword to spread a message or peace and love? whats the point of a religion telling you to slaughter everyone that does not believe what you believe, if not to eliminate opposition (current and future) without prejudice? what then is the point of eliminating opposition to a belief system at all if it is not for the reasons i have already stated?
both christians and muslims were clearly interested in the spoils of war and empire... just as all warriors are. war serves only a few purposes and spreading a message of love and peace is not one of them.Last edited by Pleasurepays; 05-08-2005, 06:17 PM.Comment
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Thanks for showing you have no knowledge about the subject at hand. Perhaps you can join indymedia.org and start writing news articles for them? I am sure they will appreciate your fluff and dance around the true subject at hand.Originally posted by PleasurepaysComment
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Originally posted by Odin88
dont be an idiot. christians slaughtered 10's of 1000's of jews while giving them the option to convert (be baptized) during the first crusade. but that is a pretty simplistic answer though to a rather complex equation of sociology, anthropology, war, conquest and empire dont you think?
a better, although equally simplistic answer is that if someone is not decidedly for you, they are against you and they must be eliminated. that is how empires of the day were built and maintained.Last edited by Pleasurepays; 05-08-2005, 06:29 PM.Comment
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and my point that you seem to be incapable of grasping was simply that "they won't convert to our religion" is not the reason that they or anyone else is killed during the crusades. they are killed because they are in the way and they are potential opposition and will always be a threat to the safety and security of the conquerers.Comment
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i just got back from the theater - not particularly moved - but it was entertaining - and that I felt like checking to see what time it was twice - but I didn't.Comment
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Who got the DVD as of yet?
I picked up "Murderball" the other day and have watched about half of it; its great so far.
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Hope I could have time to watch it
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