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I hate to spam in a hate/anger thread, but i'm not above it.
DarkJedi... if you're doing that kind of volume then please contact me and we will convert the traffic for you. I doubt it's so much a nats thing honestly... it could be the way FC has it set up.
Regardless, we have used nats for a long time and have a lot of happy affiliates.
If you'd like to chat i'm available.$50 FREE TRIALS! Every Day til 2008!!!
Only at QuickBuck
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So contact me in private about it. Don't just keep going on complaining every chance you get without asking for help or even saying what the problem is.
From what I know, HoDough deleted your account because you repeatedly attacked them over a logo on a check. And its irrelevant to this discussion.Comment
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My experience has always been that I do better with programs not using NATs. That's the reality that myself and MANY affiliates including some of the biggest ones out there have said, and nothing NATs says can change that. Instead, they should be taking it more seriously since most of us have had enough of bitching about it, have given up and just send less traffic to NATs programs or don't even bother signing up to them.
As for switching from not NATs to NATs, can't really say for sure. I can say this though. One of my major sponsors that switched, the sales numbers stayed about the same. You would think that would be a form of "proof" that NATs didn't cause a decrease in sales. But the thing is, at the same time, the program switched to their own merchant account and everyone knows that increases sales. Yet they stayed the same.
When you keep seeing things like this occur time and time again, it doesn't take long to realize there's something going on even if some people are not willing to see it or admit it.
At the end of the day, move your traffic where it makes the most money and everything else will take care of itself.
And if you're a small program using NATs and you're not attracting the affiliates or they're not seeing the sort of traffic from them you know they could send. Then maybe you should consider changing sofware. Your only loyalty should be to your bottom line and if affiliates are avoiding promoting you because of NATs, then wake up and do what you have to do for YOUR business.Comment
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there you have it ^Originally posted by Tempest
most affiliates feel that wayComment
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Amazing how if most affiliates refuse to promote NATS affiliate programs we have about 10x the client base of our nearest competitor. You need to stop and realize that if "most" as you keep saying affiliates dislike/won't use NATS then we would not have anywhere near the # of installations we do. Affilitae programs simply wouldn't use it if the majority or even a large portion of their affiliates complained about it.
The trust is most love it. Its your very loud minority who don't.Comment
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Affiliates have no choice. All the top sponsors have switched to NATS.Comment
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Maybe you can tell me how I could possibly show you an actual problem? All I have the ability to do is tell you the difference in my numbers. And I'm doing that. People like Shap have also said the same thing. But you choose to ignore even the most respected people and defend your product instead of taking it seriously.Comment
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It's Sunday evening and I have to leave. If someone has an actual demonstratable issue they would like looked into or an example of where there is a problem I would love to hear from you, please icq me, 5596373, aim me, JohnA1078, or call me Mon-Fri 10am-6pm, 732-385-1536 x111, we are very easily reachable.Comment
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"Most" include 95% that send 50 hits a month and don't ever expect a sign up. But those clients are actually worth a lot because they increase your link popularity.
With enough link popularity, you can afford to lose a hand full of affiliates that send 20-40 sign ups a month.
People who never had a sign up are not going to start complaining that they are no longer getting good ratios.Done.Comment
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I take it very seriously. As I've said, I'd like to see the #s, please contact me with your info and I'd be more than happy to look into it. As you saw from interracialtoons, most people just go in circles and won't show any examples of what they are complaining about.
If you'd like me to look into it I would be more than happy to.
If it turns out you were doing 20 joins a day and someone moved to NATS and now you're doing 5 then yes, there's a problem and we need to look for it. I can't do so without actually seeing an example of it tho, and I'm getting really exhausted repeating that point over and over and over again.Comment
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For me, I actually think that (1) NATS counts more hits that might have been counted with previous software, and (2) no software is perfect.
So there you go.Comment
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Programs choose NATs because it makes their life "easier", there's the "no shave" aspect they can use to promote their program. You're client base has nothing to do with what the affiliates are saying.
As for affiliates complaining. Every time this issue comes up, you prove why affiliates don't bother complaining or saying anything to the programs. We can't really prove it because they automatically say "everything is fine on our end".. or ... "maybe it's the way you're promoting us"... so as affiliates, we say "oh well" and move our traffic elsewhere. I can't tell you the number of times I've gone thru this.. I'll even do everything they tell me to in terms of changing my adverts etc. and still nothing. So all you can do is move on.
I just did this with fleshlight. I was making sales with the same traffic and ads... Now less.. But I want to give it the benifit of the doubt so I contacted them and I've changed my ads in the way they recomended and I've also trippled the traffic I'm sending. So now I'll see how the numbers go. But this is the last chance before I move away from them.
Some of us actually DO know what we're doing.Comment
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Fleshlight had issues in their move to NATS. They've said that many times.
I'm asking you to give me personally an example of where your performance dropped of substantially after a move to NATS, not the program owner. I would like to examine it myself. You're accusing me of not caring (which i take very personally) yet you won't allow me to look into it. What do you expect me to do?Last edited by TMM_John; 12-03-2006, 01:58 PM.Comment
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If I could give you an exact example, I definately would.. I've only had 2 programs (well 3 if you include fleshlight which I'm still not sure about, I'll see if I can still get the old stats) switch from other software to NATs. One is Flashcash which I don't send enough traffic to to really make a comparison, and the other program also implemented their own merchant account so it's not a fair comparison.
But the real problem comes in with programs that have only ever used NATs. For example.. Let's say I promote 10 ebony sites from programs that don't use NATs and 10 ebony sites from programs that use NATs. Now if the non NATs sites are always making me more money than the NATs ones, how can any of us prove that to you... And that's the major issue that many of us see and try to communicate. We promote sites that use NATs and "should" perform as well as the non NATs ones, and yet they don't. I just don't know how we could prove that to you since one can always just assume it all comes down to how they're marketed... This is not something the programs themselves or your programmers etc. could track down or report on. It's only affiliates that promote a lot of programs and sites.
But you don't appear to be listening and I can understand that given some of the personalities that get into the conversation.
Maybe you could approach a group of the top affiliates and maybe they'd be willing to share numbers across a lot of programs and sites with you. That's about the only way you could truly investigate it.
I understand your frustration and believe me, I'm also frustrated when I promote sites that I just know in my gut should do better than they end up doing. I'm not bashing. I'm just trying to communicate my experiences and impressions as an affiliate.Comment
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Thank you
You're exactly right that we can't do anything about the products. Some sell, some don't. Not every program is a match for everyone's traffic. NATS programs may have many affiliates doing well and it may just not sell on your traffic or Shap's since you pointed him out. If those programs had all of their affiliates with shitty ratios and told them all "everything looks fine" I don't think they would be doing much business.
As for the examples with NATS. One, Flashcash, you said you don't have enough traffic to really judge. The second, Fleshlightcash, has been gone over and did have some issues at the changeover time which has never been denied. The third, you said there was no performance drop on but you negate that because you think there should be one from them moving to their own merchant account. Thats not ALWAYS the case. Their gateway could be doing just as much scrubbing as a 3rd party if they want it to. Saying that NATS must be making it worse because factor XYZ should be making it better doesn't make too much sense.
I appreciate you understanding my frustration. Contrary to what you said about me originally I care very very much about how our product performs and its reputation with both affiliates and program owners. If there is an issue it is 100% our priority to look into it and get it fixed. But I can't keep chasing an invisible issue.Comment
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This cannot be taken as a fact. I have operated merchant accounts in the past including with netbilling. It's up to merchant to define the scrubbing/security level and requirements. An adult company more likely in fear when starts with a merc.account they will start from highest scrubbing and based on the results they'll adjust it. They already gain 4-6% more from processing fees difference do not forget.Comment
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My own experience...
Fleshlight... I actually sell way more now than before. Way more...
But on the flip side:
Panchodog... While they were CCBILL, I used to get a ton of sales... Now I get a sale like 2 times a month... I basically stopped promoting them...
But, can I say NATS effected either program? No... Not unless they both let me get on their server and look around.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Fleshlight did get better because their old software was bullshit.
I have another that Panchdog is just getting old...Comment
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That is very strange since we switched to Nats our ratios have been great.
MarkIntenseCash - If you can't convert us then you might want to look for a new job
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BrokeStraightBoys.com converting 1:124 stats counted by NatsComment
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I doubt NATS is the problem...but I think NATS invites program owners to shave !
Yes, it has no shaving feature, I know, but it's not very hard to shave (or better: use creative ways of tracking signups and/or defining what a is a signup and what not) in general, no matter which software is used. If I'd want to shave as a program owner, I'd install a third party software, because it's much easier to blame them for things going wrong than accusing a big billing company directly. I'd go with NATS because it doesn't have a shaving feature included so I could always claim I can't shave because I use NATS...Irony, but quite realistic if you ask me....Last edited by StarkReality; 12-03-2006, 06:14 PM.Comment
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The only program I ever really promoted using NATS was .. Oh, what was their name, you know, the ones that sued NATS. LOL.
This has however been an interesting read.Free agentComment
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Around since 1997, and the company that introduced "Cascading Billing" in MPA3® Affiliate Management and Tracking Software
Outsourcing With A Norwegian Twist - NordBits - Inquire within!Comment
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I can find roughly 30 sites actively running MPA. Can you show me much more? Not just say you can, but actually show me more.
And you know I'd never want you to quit
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Programs, like Flashcash, that had custom backends and a lot of webmasters suspected them of shaving (because the feature could be easily wrote in), hence the move of a lot of old programs to NATS.
NATS doesn't present the ratios in an way that looks most flattering to the sponsor.
You signups are about the same.Comment
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this was a fun read..
NATS is a solid system in my opinion.
that said, most of the issues with conversion ratios bouncing to and fro are related to processors. almost always.
edit: assuming your traffic is consistent.254342256Comment
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John, you already know (and have for years) that we never go out and tell anyone who our clients are and we dont have a website showing all customers. With MPA3 or MAS for that matter we respect our clients right to confidentiality. Always have and always will.
That said, if you have 10x the amount of programs your closest competitor have (Mansion) then you must have THOUSANDS of clients - so I am merely pointing out that you are over exaggerating immensely unless you grew 10 fold over the past few days.
Around since 1997, and the company that introduced "Cascading Billing" in MPA3® Affiliate Management and Tracking Software
Outsourcing With A Norwegian Twist - NordBits - Inquire within!Comment
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Last edited by SCORE Ralph; 12-04-2006, 09:07 AM.GetSCORECash.com | In the Biz Since 1991
Big Tits | Granny & MILFs | Amateurs | Big Booty | Foot Fetish | BBW | Teens
Hosted Embeds | MP4s | RSS Feeds | FHGs | Model DirectoryComment
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It would seem to me very easy to check if you're getting sales, lost or what ever.
Get on ICQ and start checking each others programs. You can email the sponsor and tell them to cancel your tests.
John, accept that some people have a problem, don't deny it's there because you can't see it. They can.
Over all no program can afford to lose the sales some are claiming, nor can they afford to have their affiliates lose the sales some are claiming. Using NATS with it's cascading billing should gain sales not lose them.
However it's clear as daylight some affiliates have a problem and it should be dealt with, not denied.
I will be sticking with CCBILL.
The downside is I have only one biller, if I put up a second the affiliates hate me and accuse me of shaving them. Even if I was paying the 65% on the one biller.
Might put up a second or third biller and adjust the payment % accordingly. Then tell the haters to
and find a new program. Because it seems you can't please all the people all the time. Which is the essence of this thread.
So just went back on my own advice. Not trying to be funny, only stating the obvious.Comment
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If you're making good money with your sites, then spend the money for some good software. If you remember the thread Shap wrote about his business, you'll remember it's the one thing he strongly recomended. That way you can cascade and keep affiliates happy as well. Why not see which software he uses.It would seem to me very easy to check if you're getting sales, lost or what ever.
Get on ICQ and start checking each others programs. You can email the sponsor and tell them to cancel your tests.
John, accept that some people have a problem, don't deny it's there because you can't see it. They can.
Over all no program can afford to lose the sales some are claiming, nor can they afford to have their affiliates lose the sales some are claiming. Using NATS with it's cascading billing should gain sales not lose them.
However it's clear as daylight some affiliates have a problem and it should be dealt with, not denied.
I will be sticking with CCBILL.
The downside is I have only one biller, if I put up a second the affiliates hate me and accuse me of shaving them. Even if I was paying the 65% on the one biller.
Might put up a second or third biller and adjust the payment % accordingly. Then tell the haters to and find a new program. Because it seems you can't please all the people all the time. Which is the essence of this thread.
So just went back on my own advice. Not trying to be funny, only stating the obvious.Comment
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So nothing has really been concluded from this thread?
MattWhat name is pr0 / Untouched Markets using these days? Untouched Markets - pr0 - Refund My Money Now
Someone owes me $2,000 because they didn't do any work that was paid for *pointing at pr0 / William / UntouchedMarkets*
See http://www.gfy.com/showthread.php?p=16744521 and for more detailed see http://www.gfy.com/showthread.php?t=948645Comment
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Frank - What was this in regards to - Fleshlight or a combo of programs that have since switched? http://www.gfy.com/showpost.php?p=11352117
Thanks
Sean Holland
Vice President
OrbitalPay / Global Electronic Technology (GET)
SKYPE: iam.sean ::: sholland at orbitalpay.com
888-775-1500Comment
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