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fünkmaster

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#51

03-30-2005, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Lensman

OK, so we agree there is no way to secretly and deliberatly shave Nats.

yes, we can agree to that, there is nothing like the "perfect crime"

...but I am not saying that people won't try to defaud NATS, I just showed you one "not so good" way to defraud them, there is other ways, p.e. you could show the correct reseller code in the html, but the data posted to NATS is different.

a simply java script hidding in some frameset could just convert the posted value from:

MTE3OjU6NQ
to
MHGJH74RTF

... this is happening in the background and it's almost impossible for the common webmaster to notice.
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#52

03-30-2005, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by AaronM

See Sig!

Second space sig spot it worthless. Get on the ball!
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skillfull

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#53

03-30-2005, 04:53 PM

if they give the source code
they are shavable

even if the code is crypted, everything can be decrypted easily ;)

mind at underdark dot cc
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Alex From San Diego

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#54

03-30-2005, 04:56 PM

I'm staying out of this one today. I will say this though. Electracash was one of many issues we encountered so to say a few minor glitches, I don't agree.

If NATS works for those who use it, then I'm happy for you and hope it continues to work for you. I know this much, I'm not the only fish in the pond who shares the same sentiments and eventually there will be a bigger fish than us that speaks out.

Maybe we had the lemon install....LOL

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#55

03-30-2005, 10:40 PM

Already posted this in a related thread, but since the question was asked about all NATS programs...
We don't use Electracash. We have also hand-checked every single transaction and cross-checked them between the NATS stats and the processors stats - no transactions were missing. If any had been, of course we would pay on them.

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Johny Traffic

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#56

03-30-2005, 10:51 PM

I love this forum. Just a month ago everyone was kissing Nats arse like it was a 18 year old virgin. It was pathetic how thread after thread people where asking for sponsors who use Nats and is was pathetic how thread after thread people talked about how Nats couldnt shave.

Now we have gone the other way. Now we see everyone comming out saying how it could be shaved. Anyone who has ever made one sale knows that a payment system cant stop a shaver and so choosing a sponsor because they use nats is laughable.

Im not saying nats isnt a good system, infact I dont know one way or the other, but when you choose a sponsor choose one you trust and work with them, get the owners ICQ, talk to him, watch your stats. I work with sposors that I trust and make money with, I couldnt give a rats arse what payment system they use. I prefere CCBill becuase then I get all my checks together, but I know with CCBill or nats or any other system you can shave. Its simple, its easy, its almost undetecable and it takes seconds with any system in the world

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JSA Matt

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#57

03-30-2005, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Lensman

OK, so we agree there is no way to secretly and deliberatly shave Nats.

disagreed, have you considered the postback level?
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Nathan

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#58

03-30-2005, 11:46 PM

Funkmaster,

Not a SINGLE NATS sponsor that I know currently uses Electracash!!
This is also NOT SHAVING. Like we said before, JSA was TOLD to STOP using Electracash because of a major issue. The issue was NOT IN NATS it was in ELECTRACASH! I am not going to give you details, if they want to or someone else that knows, thats fine, but I am not going to start another friggin popcorn thread here. It took ELECTRACASH multiple _MONTHS_ to get it sorted out, before that we were not comfortable letting anyone use them.
It was sorted out around 1 month ago and we have reenabled Electracash around 2 weeks ago for anyone that still wants to use them now.

The reason why we did not yet import the electracash rebills for JSA until now is simply that they closed the ticket about this issue more than 2 months ago! If they wanted us to, we could import all rebills right now so that the NEXT PAYOUT includes them ALL. This is what we always do in these cases!

Electracah is btw by far not the only biller that ever had problems. If I remember correctly even Oyestein can back me on this, around 1 year ago they had an issue with one of the billers they had implemented that caused problems. This is a NORMAL thing in this biz. Many unstandardized systems have to play together correctly, we do not make the billers adapt to us, we adapt to the billers to support them.

Also, Electracash DID fix the problem in a good way and we are now happy to let anyone use them together with NATS.

I am not even going to start with all the shaving stuff in this thread again, we explained our standpoint often enough, if anyone wants to actually try using NATS and shaving, be my guest, you won't be doing it for long.

"Think about it a little more and you'll agree with me, because you're smart and I'm right."
- Charlie Munger
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JSA Matt

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#59

03-31-2005, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by fünkmaster

yes, we can agree to that, there is nothing like the "perfect crime"

How about this one...

Everyone knows that affiliate software has to either pull data from the processor, or rely on the processor to postback data to the software.

You cannot encode a database and there is nothing the software company can do to keep you from changing polling and postback scripts.

So what is going to stop someone from creating their own postback & polling scripts with a shave built in? Nothing.

These crons could easily be pointed to custom polling scripts. Just as easily, the processors postback URLs could be pointed to custom postback scripts.

I am not trying to single out NATS by any means, this can be done with ANY affiliate software including MPA3.

Any thoughts? This is purely for entertainment value : )
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#60

03-31-2005, 10:34 AM

i know another shave method with NATS

This is a big one

What if a big company that pays out millions of dollars using NATS

suddenly ....

files for CHAPTER 11 !

Its just a complete shave not just checks but for CREDIT CARD BILLING TOO using EPOCH AND CCBILL!!

!

Don't trust NATS imo.

millionare by 18 , beat that hOES
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JSA Matt

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#61

03-31-2005, 10:34 AM

No one has any thoughts? bah!
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Terenzo

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#62

03-31-2005, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by fünkmaster

Electracash reports that out of 275 rebills 270 are missing, where I come from that's approx 95% shave on rebills. jasonandalex says it's NATS fault, so what will sponsors that use NATS do???

so rumors are true that earnings are up with nats

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#63

03-31-2005, 11:14 AM

We don't have Electracash but when we dropped a handful of signups from CCBill because of a postback issue we hand added them to make sure everyone got paid.

If you think any sponsor is going to "shave off" a huge chunk of signups like that all at once then you haven't thought it through. No sponsor is going to keep affiliates very long if their numbers are for shit and shaving off hundreds of rebills or joins will make that sponsor look awfully shitty.

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AudreyLive

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#64

03-31-2005, 11:27 AM

StandAhead.com doesn't use Electracash neither! Our affiliates are very important and they do the job, they would have been paid for sure!

Wanna make money with AudreyLive.com? I convert and I retain!
CLICK HERE NOW - 60% Revshare - $30-35 Per Signup - 5% referrals - Epassporte payments
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#65

03-31-2005, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Johny Traffic

I love this forum. Just a month ago everyone was kissing Nats arse like it was a 18 year old virgin. It was pathetic how thread after thread people where asking for sponsors who use Nats and is was pathetic how thread after thread people talked about how Nats couldnt shave.

Now we have gone the other way. Now we see everyone comming out saying how it could be shaved. Anyone who has ever made one sale knows that a payment system cant stop a shaver and so choosing a sponsor because they use nats is laughable.

Things always worked like this in this industry.....

1) hype
2) followers
3) problems
4) rantings...

etc...etc..
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JSA Matt

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#66

03-31-2005, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Rui

Things always worked like this in this industry.....

1) hype
2) followers
3) problems
4) rantings...

etc...etc..

Like......Whoa
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fünkmaster

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#67

03-31-2005, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by JSA Matt

How about this one...

Everyone knows that affiliate software has to either pull data from the processor, or rely on the processor to postback data to the software.

You cannot encode a database and there is nothing the software company can do to keep you from changing polling and postback scripts.

So what is going to stop someone from creating their own postback & polling scripts with a shave built in? Nothing.

These crons could easily be pointed to custom polling scripts. Just as easily, the processors postback URLs could be pointed to custom postback scripts.

I am not trying to single out NATS by any means, this can be done with ANY affiliate software including MPA3.

Any thoughts? This is purely for entertainment value : )

... very nice !! (would work for all, excluding MPA2)
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JOKER

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#68

03-31-2005, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by Nathan

Funkmaster,

Not a SINGLE NATS sponsor that I know currently uses Electracash!!
This is also NOT SHAVING. Like we said before, JSA was TOLD to STOP using Electracash because of a major issue. The issue was NOT IN NATS it was in ELECTRACASH! I am not going to give you details, if they want to or someone else that knows, thats fine, but I am not going to start another friggin popcorn thread here. It took ELECTRACASH multiple _MONTHS_ to get it sorted out, before that we were not comfortable letting anyone use them.
It was sorted out around 1 month ago and we have reenabled Electracash around 2 weeks ago for anyone that still wants to use them now.

The reason why we did not yet import the electracash rebills for JSA until now is simply that they closed the ticket about this issue more than 2 months ago! If they wanted us to, we could import all rebills right now so that the NEXT PAYOUT includes them ALL. This is what we always do in these cases!

Electracah is btw by far not the only biller that ever had problems. If I remember correctly even Oyestein can back me on this, around 1 year ago they had an issue with one of the billers they had implemented that caused problems. This is a NORMAL thing in this biz. Many unstandardized systems have to play together correctly, we do not make the billers adapt to us, we adapt to the billers to support them.

Also, Electracash DID fix the problem in a good way and we are now happy to let anyone use them together with NATS.

I am not even going to start with all the shaving stuff in this thread again, we explained our standpoint often enough, if anyone wants to actually try using NATS and shaving, be my guest, you won't be doing it for long.

Immer die anderen

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Nathan

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#69

03-31-2005, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by fünkmaster

... very nice !! (would work for all, excluding MPA2)

MPA2 uses crons also as far as I know. At least I kept seeing a bunch of crons for all kinds of billers and other things.

But yeah, removing the crons or changing them would make it possible to remove rebills and such, not sales though (so only usable to "shave" revshare programs) and I am sure someone would start asking questions rather soon on a revshare program that does not see many rebills. Or just stop using them I guess.

"Think about it a little more and you'll agree with me, because you're smart and I'm right."
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JSA Matt

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#70

03-31-2005, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by Nathan

MPA2 uses crons also as far as I know. At least I kept seeing a bunch of crons for all kinds of billers and other things.

But yeah, removing the crons or changing them would make it possible to remove rebills and such, not sales though (so only usable to "shave" revshare programs) and I am sure someone would start asking questions rather soon on a revshare program that does not see many rebills. Or just stop using them I guess.

Why not sales?
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JOKER

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#71

03-31-2005, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by JSA Matt

How about this one...

Everyone knows that affiliate software has to either pull data from the processor, or rely on the processor to postback data to the software.

You cannot encode a database and there is nothing the software company can do to keep you from changing polling and postback scripts.

So what is going to stop someone from creating their own postback & polling scripts with a shave built in? Nothing.

These crons could easily be pointed to custom polling scripts. Just as easily, the processors postback URLs could be pointed to custom postback scripts.

I am not trying to single out NATS by any means, this can be done with ANY affiliate software including MPA3.

Any thoughts? This is purely for entertainment value : )

Good point.

At the end of the day, who decides to shave will do it anyway.

Is that such a bad thing?

Not really, since there is enough competition out there that will eventually
pay me more at the end of the day or have other aspects that make me feel
more comfortable sending my traffic there.

It's quite easy, if Sponsor A makes me 2000 daily while shaving and Sponsor B makes me 1000 daily without shaving...

Guess who gets my traffic

It's called a self regulating market, the better ones always win, shaving or not.

Just my

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Nathan

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#72

03-31-2005, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by JSA Matt

Why not sales?

The crons would not fetch sale info. They might double-check them, but most likely will not actually store them from there, sales would be way too slow in registering then.

Postbacks will be used for sale info, not the crons.

"Think about it a little more and you'll agree with me, because you're smart and I'm right."
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TurboAngel

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#73

03-31-2005, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by JSA Matt

Like......Whoa
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JSA Matt

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#74

03-31-2005, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by Nathan

The crons would not fetch sale info. They might double-check them, but most likely will not actually store them from there, sales would be way too slow in registering then.

Postbacks will be used for sale info, not the crons.

Read again, I mentioned postback URLs as well
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Nathan

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#75

03-31-2005, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by JOKEREMPIRE

Good point.

At the end of the day, who decides to shave will do it anyway.

Is that such a bad thing?

Not really, since there is enough competition out there that will eventually
pay me more at the end of the day or have other aspects that make me feel
more comfortable sending my traffic there.

It's quite easy, if Sponsor A makes me 2000 daily while shaving and Sponsor B makes me 1000 daily without shaving...

Guess who gets my traffic

It's called a self regulating market, the better ones always win, shaving or not.

Just my

Lets try this scenario:

Sponsor A is known to be shaving.
Sponsor B is known to not shave.

You do not use either A or B. Now you have some new traffic, which sponsor do you pick?

You telling me you would prefer picking A over B?

Fabian

"Think about it a little more and you'll agree with me, because you're smart and I'm right."
- Charlie Munger
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Nathan

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#76

03-31-2005, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by JSA Matt

Read again, I mentioned postback URLs as well

Ok, so you want to rewrite all postback scripts and all polling scripts, figure out how to register a sale correctly for the software so you do not forget some little thing here or there that might be needed that you might overlook.

So you have to learn implementing all the billers, learn what the software does and are still not 100% sure noone will catch you.

This is basically a risk management thing really. If you think you can get away with it, give it a try and we'll see who laughs last. If you do not want the others to laugh last, you might want to consider not doing this.

Do not forget, you have a lot to lose by getting caught, you will want to do this the best way possible.

If you could write your own software that just simply shaved, or buy apps that you can change the source code to, or buy an app that you know does not have a shaving feature (like mpa3 or NATS), and you wanted to shave, what would you do? Get mpa3 or NATS or get one of the first two choices?

"Think about it a little more and you'll agree with me, because you're smart and I'm right."
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JOKER

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#77

03-31-2005, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Nathan

Lets try this scenario:

Sponsor A is known to be shaving.
Sponsor B is known to not shave.

You do not use either A or B. Now you have some new traffic, which sponsor do you pick?

You telling me you would prefer picking A over B?

Fabian

I pick the one that makes me more $$ at the end of the day, regardless if they shave or not.

If a known shaver converts better than a non-shaving one and does more sales on my volume, why would I choose the non-shaver?

Ethics are nice and good, but at the end the $$ makes the final descision in this business.

Hope you got my point.

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JSA Matt

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#78

03-31-2005, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Nathan

Ok, so you want to rewrite all postback scripts and all polling scripts, figure out how to register a sale correctly for the software so you do not forget some little thing here or there that might be needed that you might overlook.

So you have to learn implementing all the billers, learn what the software does and are still not 100% sure noone will catch you.

This is basically a risk management thing really. If you think you can get away with it, give it a try and we'll see who laughs last. If you do not want the others to laugh last, you might want to consider not doing this.

Do not forget, you have a lot to lose by getting caught, you will want to do this the best way possible.

If you could write your own software that just simply shaved, or buy apps that you can change the source code to, or buy an app that you know does not have a shaving feature (like mpa3 or NATS), and you wanted to shave, what would you do? Get mpa3 or NATS or get one of the first two choices?

This is about the possibility to shave secretly with any affiliate software, nothing more. It is not hard at all to figure out how to register a sale through the software and every processor has a detailed technical manual available to anyone.
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Nathan

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#79

03-31-2005, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by JOKEREMPIRE

I pick the one that makes me more $$ at the end of the day, regardless if they shave or not.

If a known shaver converts better than a non-shaving one and does more sales on my volume, why would I choose the non-shaver?

Ethics are nice and good, but at the end the $$ makes the final descision in this business.

Hope you got my point.

Grüsse aus der Heimat

Ok, so you would test both sponsors with equal effort? I wonder how many others would actually do that, I doubt too many would.

Grüße zurück ;)

"Think about it a little more and you'll agree with me, because you're smart and I'm right."
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#80

03-31-2005, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Alex

Nats is unshavable NOOB go home.

Priceless

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JSA Matt

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#81

03-31-2005, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by JOKEREMPIRE

I pick the one that makes me more $$ at the end of the day, regardless if they shave or not.

Are you sending to PIBCash yet? LOL
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JOKER

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#82

03-31-2005, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Nathan

Ok, so you want to rewrite all postback scripts and all polling scripts, figure out how to register a sale correctly for the software so you do not forget some little thing here or there that might be needed that you might overlook.

So you have to learn implementing all the billers, learn what the software does and are still not 100% sure noone will catch you.

This is basically a risk management thing really. If you think you can get away with it, give it a try and we'll see who laughs last. If you do not want the others to laugh last, you might want to consider not doing this.

Do not forget, you have a lot to lose by getting caught, you will want to do this the best way possible.

If you could write your own software that just simply shaved, or buy apps that you can change the source code to, or buy an app that you know does not have a shaving feature (like mpa3 or NATS), and you wanted to shave, what would you do? Get mpa3 or NATS or get one of the first two choices?

Why can't you simply admit that if a company wants to shave they will do it, no matter if they use NATS, MPA* or what software ever.

It's a descision the company does, not one that you do for the company.

If they are way better than their competition and make their affiliates more money even if they shave a % who gives a shit.

The better ones win, get over it

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#83

03-31-2005, 12:44 PM
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JOKER

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#84

03-31-2005, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by JSA Matt

Are you sending to PIBCash yet? LOL

Ask Chris to who I'm sending

But even if PIBCash would be more profitable in the end (which might apply for some ppl, since they are still open) and pay on time - why not.

Who makes less money because he feels better not being shaved by a less-good converting sponsor... hey, it's their descision.

Some ppl are in this business for money, some for other reasons.

And saying a shaving company is dishonest with everything they do is not really applying as well... Some of the big ones many ppl look up to do it, and they are still here doing business cause they are doing better than others for their affiliates as it seems.

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#85

03-31-2005, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Johny Traffic

Just a month ago everyone was kissing Nats arse like it was a 18 year old virgin. It was pathetic how thread after thread people where asking for sponsors who use Nats and is was pathetic how thread after thread people talked about how Nats couldnt shave.

Unfortunately this industry is dominated by the cult of personality. And the other side of that coin is the delight people have when they get the chance to knock down those they put on pedestals in the first place. That's why you are on this thread now...

In reality NATS claimed only that their software made it difficult to shave and had no built-in shave functions, even though a lot of people chose to believe they had said much more than that. The only really significant claim they made, and then only if you take it at face value, was that they would come down on any clients who were caught shaving. In any case what have any of these claims got to do with the functionality issues that this thread was originally about?

You might better ask where the sponsors were - those who are now saying they already had some problems with NATS - when NATS was being boosted so outrageously...

But if we did operate more rationally, look at the choices. Most of those who have adopted script-assisted cascading billing are using either NATS or one of the Mansion products. Mansion has - at least in the past - made it easy for sponsors to cheat their affiliates, so why would any affiliate in his right mind forgive that? Against that, we haven't learned anything in this thread which suggests any widespread issues, so if an affiliate thinks automated cascading billing is a good thing, why wouldn't sponsors using NATS still be the obvious choice?

Last edited by jayeff; 03-31-2005, 01:15 PM.
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#86

03-31-2005, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by JSA Matt

This is about the possibility to shave secretly with any affiliate software, nothing more. It is not hard at all to figure out how to register a sale through the software and every processor has a detailed technical manual available to anyone.

I know what your whole point is matt, I am extending your idea though and showing where the danger lies anyway even if you do that.

And if you think its easy to register sales correctly through any software, thats ok, continue thinking that... Also, not every processor has detailed tech docs.

"Think about it a little more and you'll agree with me, because you're smart and I'm right."
- Charlie Munger
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#87

03-31-2005, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by JOKEREMPIRE

Why can't you simply admit that if a company wants to shave they will do it, no matter if they use NATS, MPA* or what software ever.

It's a descision the company does, not one that you do for the company.

If they are way better than their competition and make their affiliates more money even if they shave a % who gives a shit.

The better ones win, get over it

I have never argued against it being possible. The only thing I said is that it is less likely to be done with MPA3 or NATS than other apps which are given out with source or are written in-house.

And yes, some people think the same as you. Some people do not give a shit if someone shaves, most do though. Just because you think its ok does not make everyone think that ;)

And yeah, the better sponsor always wins... I absolutely agree.

"Think about it a little more and you'll agree with me, because you're smart and I'm right."
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JSA Matt

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#88

03-31-2005, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Nathan

I know what your whole point is matt, I am extending your idea though and showing where the danger lies anyway even if you do that.

And if you think its easy to register sales correctly through any software, thats ok, continue thinking that... Also, not every processor has detailed tech docs.

Well, it's easy to me as i've integrated Epoch, CCBill, ElectraCash, Paypal, and Epassporte before.

I've made my point and got what I needed out of this thread, thanks for playing
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OY

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#89

04-04-2005, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Nathan

Electracah is btw by far not the only biller that ever had problems. If I remember correctly even Oyestein can back me on this, around 1 year ago they had an issue with one of the billers they had implemented that caused problems. This is a NORMAL thing in this biz. Many unstandardized systems have to play together correctly, we do not make the billers adapt to us, we adapt to the billers to support them.

With all due respect Nathan, what I recall is that when we said that this would be an issue for some, the punches we got back was that our software was full of bugs. Just to refresh your memory.
And btw, we fixed those "bugs" within days of noticing them. Electracash has a solid solution when implemented correctly.

And that is all I have to say about that.

Around since 1997, and the company that introduced "Cascading Billing" in MPA3® Affiliate Management and Tracking Software

Outsourcing With A Norwegian Twist - NordBits - Inquire within!
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Nathan

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#90

04-04-2005, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by Oystein

With all due respect Nathan, what I recall is that when we said that this would be an issue for some, the punches we got back was that our software was full of bugs. Just to refresh your memory.
And btw, we fixed those "bugs" within days of noticing them. Electracash has a solid solution when implemented correctly.

And that is all I have to say about that.

I honestly do not remember if I myself "attacked" you on the subject with the one problem I mentioned, if I did, I appologize. I also did not in any way mean what I posted here about the mpa issue a year ago in any way negatively, I only said that it happends to everyone.

I am not going to comment on the Electracash stuff...

"Think about it a little more and you'll agree with me, because you're smart and I'm right."
- Charlie Munger
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Tony Montana

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#91

04-04-2005, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by Lensman

RealityCash does not use Electracash for checks, I'd glad to say.

But I wonder about Aaron's statement, how can you deliberately and secretly shave with Nats? I don't know how, all I can think of is to change the join page to go thru other software, but affiliates can figure than one out in about one minute! I'll be the first one to say that Nats is not perfect, but it's not shavable and the code is not editable (too bad too, but there are some features we've been asking for that I would rather just have our guys add, but we can't).

I think if people say that a certain package can deliberately and secretly shave, they should say how.

Isn't it coded in php? You could easily manipulate the database. Clone the files, add pass through files, ect..

If the nats people want to set me up a demo on a ftp account i'll have it shaving 50% in about 30 minutes.

I am a marketing Genius.
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OY

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#92

04-04-2005, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Nathan

I honestly do not remember if I myself "attacked" you on the subject with the one problem I mentioned, if I did, I appologize. I also did not in any way mean what I posted here about the mpa issue a year ago in any way negatively, I only said that it happends to everyone.

I am not going to comment on the Electracash stuff...

Apology accepted

Around since 1997, and the company that introduced "Cascading Billing" in MPA3® Affiliate Management and Tracking Software

Outsourcing With A Norwegian Twist - NordBits - Inquire within!
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Tony Montana

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#93

04-04-2005, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Nathan

I have never argued against it being possible. The only thing I said is that it is less likely to be done with MPA3 or NATS than other apps which are given out with source or are written in-house.

And yes, some people think the same as you. Some people do not give a shit if someone shaves, most do though. Just because you think its ok does not make everyone think that ;)

And yeah, the better sponsor always wins... I absolutely agree.

I personally don't see how it is less likely at all. Unless you guys hosted everything for them. I am not bashing your script at all. I know its good software.

If you can't trust your sponsor then you should prly move in to another one. Not rely on what software they have installed.

I am a marketing Genius.
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