More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales

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  • yuvalus
    Confirmed User
    • Oct 2003
    • 1906

    #1

    More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/27/in...e/27dutch.html


    AMSTERDAM - Paul Hiltemann had already noticed a darkening mood in the Netherlands. He runs an agency for people wanting to emigrate and his client list had surged.

    But he was still taken aback in November when a Dutch filmmaker was shot and his throat was slit, execution style, on an Amsterdam street.

    In the weeks that followed, Mr. Hiltemann was inundated by e-mail messages and telephone calls. "There was a big panic," he said, "a flood of people saying they wanted to leave the country."

    Leave this stable and prosperous corner of Europe? Leave this land with its generous social benefits and ample salaries, a place of fine schools, museums, sports grounds and bicycle paths, all set in a lively democracy?

    The answer, increasingly, is yes. This small nation is a magnet for immigrants, but statistics suggest there is a quickening flight of the white middle class. Dutch people pulling up roots said they felt a general pessimism about their small and crowded country and about the social tensions that had grown along with the waves of newcomers, most of them Muslims."The Dutch are living in a kind of pressure cooker atmosphere," Mr. Hiltemann said.

    There is more than the concern about the rising complications of absorbing newcomers, now one-tenth of the population, many of them from largely Muslim countries. Many Dutch also seem bewildered that their country, run for decades on a cozy, political consensus, now seems so tense and prickly and bent on confrontation. Those leaving have been mostly lured by large English-speaking nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, where they say they hope to feel less constricted.

    In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags. But the killing of the filmmaker Theo van Gogh, a fierce critic of fundamentalist Muslims, seems to have been a catalyst.

    "Our Web site got 13,000 hits in the weeks after the van Gogh killing," said Frans Buysse, who runs an agency that handles paperwork for departing Dutch. "That's four times the normal rate."

    Mr. van Gogh's killing is the only one the police have attributed to an Islamic militant, but since then they have reported finding death lists by local Islamic militants with the names of six prominent politicians. The effects still reverberate. In a recent opinion poll, 35 percent of the native Dutch questioned had negative views about Islam.

    There are no precise figures on the numbers now leaving. But Canadian, Australian and New Zealand diplomats here said that while immigration papers were processed in their home capitals, embassy officials here had been swamped by inquiries in recent months.

    Many who settle abroad may not appear in migration statistics, like the growing contingent of retirees who flock to warmer places. But official statistics show a trend. In 1999, nearly 30,000 native Dutch moved elsewhere, according to the Central Bureau of Statistics. For 2004, the provisional figure is close to 40,000. "It's definitely been picking up in the past five years," said Cor Kooijmans, a demographer at the bureau.

    Ruud Konings, an accountant, has just sold his comfortable home in the small town of Hilvarenbeek. In March, after a year's worth of paperwork, the family will leave for Australia. The couple said the main reason was their fear for the welfare and security of their two teenage children.

    "When I grew up, this place was spontaneous and free, but my kids cannot safely cycle home at night," said Mr. Konings, 49. "My son just had his fifth bicycle stolen." At school, his children and their friends feel uneasy, he added. "They're afraid of being roughed up by the gangs of foreign kids."

    Sandy Sangen has applied to move to Norway with her husband and two school-age children. They want to buy a farm in what she calls "a safer, more peaceful place."

    Like the Sangens and Koningses, others who are moving speak of their yearning for the open spaces, the clean air, the easygoing civility they feel they have lost. Complaints include overcrowding, endless traffic jams, overregulation. Some cite a rise in antisocial behavior and a worrying new toughness and aggression both in political debates and on the streets.
    Mail me: [email protected]
  • ssp
    Confirmed User
    • Jan 2005
    • 7990

    #2
    So true. I'm getting the fuck out of here next May.

    Comment

    • Dalai lama
      Strength and Honor
      • Jul 2004
      • 16540

      #3
      Originally posted by ssp
      So true. I'm getting the fuck out of here next May.

      Where are you heading too ?

      A program you can trust.
      Gallerybooster Run multiply TGPs of 1 script

      Comment

      • Mr Dickovitch
        Confirmed User
        • Jul 2004
        • 1070

        #4
        How long before they start stoning all the dutch people to death for not worshipping Allah?

        Comment

        • Phoenix
          BACON BACON BACON
          • Nov 2002
          • 35475

          #5
          anyone ever see Romper Stomper? ;) ;)

          dont get pushed out of your own country
          Telegram PhoenixBrad
          https://quantads.io

          Comment

          • ssp
            Confirmed User
            • Jan 2005
            • 7990

            #6
            Originally posted by Dalai lama
            Where are you heading too ?
            UK for a few months and then to the USA.

            Comment

            • Drake
              Hello world!
              • Mar 2003
              • 12508

              #7
              Wow

              I wonder why emigrants didn't indicate the muslim population as a problem in the interviews:
              "In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags."

              Do you guys have ideas on why they wouldn't have simply said, we're frightened or don't like the direction the country is going because of Muslims in the interviews?

              Also, does anybody know what the Muslim population in North America looks like compared to Dutch and other European countries?

              Lastly, if this is a pressing problem, why hasn't the Dutch government tried to contain and eradicate the problem?

              Comment

              • ssp
                Confirmed User
                • Jan 2005
                • 7990

                #8
                Originally posted by Mike33
                Wow

                I wonder why emigrants didn't indicate the muslim population as a problem in the interviews:
                "In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags."

                Do you guys have ideas on why they wouldn't have simply said, we're frightened or don't like the direction the country is going because of Muslims in the interviews?

                Also, does anybody know what the Muslim population in North America looks like compared to Dutch and other European countries?

                Lastly, if this is a pressing problem, why hasn't the Dutch government tried to contain and eradicate the problem?
                I'm not leaving this country because I'm afraid. I'm leaving this country because the attitude of the general Dutch public has taken a turn for the worse. Holland might be perceived as a social country where everybody is welcome but that's far from true when you talk to Dutch people.

                This society is fed by fear and anger by a few radicalist muslims. The Dutch now fear muslims and are afraid that muslims will take over this country because the government refuses to take matters into own hands. There is no understanding between people anymore and negativity has taken the upperhand.

                This is certainly not the time for me to live in Holland anymore. I'd rather live in a society filled with hypocrits like America than a society based on fear like Holland.

                I must say I've been wanted to get out of this small minded country for years now, but it seems this is the right time to pack my bags.

                Comment

                • Phoenix
                  BACON BACON BACON
                  • Nov 2002
                  • 35475

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Mike33
                  Wow

                  I wonder why emigrants didn't indicate the muslim population as a problem in the interviews:
                  "In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags."

                  Do you guys have ideas on why they wouldn't have simply said, we're frightened or don't like the direction the country is going because of Muslims in the interviews?

                  Also, does anybody know what the Muslim population in North America looks like compared to Dutch and other European countries?

                  Lastly, if this is a pressing problem, why hasn't the Dutch government tried to contain and eradicate the problem?

                  I have heard Denmark is having the same problem.
                  I think most Dutch people are too polite to name a race of people for the reason they want to leave..or embarrassed.
                  Telegram PhoenixBrad
                  https://quantads.io

                  Comment

                  • jukeboxfrank
                    Confirmed User
                    • Apr 2004
                    • 1207

                    #10
                    I think the Dutch will see that America will welcome them with open arms..........
                    Ya we suck in a lot of ways but we are also a great place to live here and there..


                    ICQ= 231-182-592

                    Comment

                    • VirtuMike
                      Confirmed User
                      • May 2002
                      • 2483

                      #11
                      You think America is not a society based on fear? Turn on American TV sometime. You'll see how much ad money sells you on fear. The entire American society is based on fear.
                      Host it in AMSTERDAM at EUROTIVITY! - We also offer BACKUP SERVICES!

                      XYZZY4L

                      Comment

                      • ssp
                        Confirmed User
                        • Jan 2005
                        • 7990

                        #12
                        Originally posted by jukeboxfrank
                        I think the Dutch will see that America will welcome them with open arms..........
                        Ya we suck in a lot of ways but we are also a great place to live here and there..
                        You might be mistaken. Maybe the American public likes the Dutch, but Dutch people have just as many problems getting in the states as any other country. America is one of the hardest countries to emigrate to. That's the reason many people choose to live in Australia, Canada or New Zealand.

                        Comment

                        • Sneezy
                          Confirmed User
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 450

                          #13
                          apart from the hostile climate that has overcome Holland in the last decade, there are simply a few more reasons to think of why you should want to move out of there.

                          I'm chillin in Canada for 3 years now. Why?
                          Well, you do the math.

                          people on a km²; compare this:
                          Holland 41,526 km², Population: 16.25 million
                          Canada 9,970,610km², Population: 30 million

                          The price of Gasoline ; compare this:
                          Holland: ? 1,25 a liter (is about 1,63 cad $)
                          Canada: cad $ 0,85 a liter

                          The price of cars ; compare this:
                          a Hummer h2
                          in Holland: ? 125.000,00 all taxes included (is about 204,575 cad $)
                          in Canada: cad $ 68,000 tax included

                          The price of a house ; compare this:
                          a simple family house (min. 3 bedrooms) garden on all sites in a 'good' town or neighborhood;
                          in Holland: starting at ? 450.000 (is about 737,000 cad $)
                          in Canada: starting at cad $ 250,000

                          The list of reasons goes on and on, trust me.

                          btw SSP, don't forget to sell your new plasma tv, cause we're on 120 volts in North America ;-)

                          no sig 4u

                          Comment

                          • Fake Nick
                            So Fucking Banned
                            • Jul 2004
                            • 7708

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Sneezy

                            The price of cars ; compare this:
                            a Hummer h2
                            in Holland: ? 125.000,00 all taxes included (is about 204,575 cad $)
                            in Canada: cad $ 68,000 tax included


                            BULLSHIT dude, a H2 in holland would be around 75 000

                            Comment

                            • Fake Nick
                              So Fucking Banned
                              • Jul 2004
                              • 7708

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Sneezy



                              The price of a house ; compare this:
                              a simple family house (min. 3 bedrooms) garden on all sites in a 'good' town or neighborhood;
                              in Holland: starting at ? 450.000 (is about 737,000 cad $)
                              in Canada: starting at cad $ 250,000


                              BULLSHIT dude , a normal house goes for 200 000

                              Comment

                              • ssp
                                Confirmed User
                                • Jan 2005
                                • 7990

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Fake Nick
                                BULLSHIT dude , a normal house goes for 200 000
                                LOL What would you know about Holland, you live in Belgium!

                                A normal house goes for 200k maybe if you want to live in nomansland. An average house goes for 300k easily here in the "randstad". You might want to check out the price of a Hummer too!

                                Comment

                                • Relish XXX
                                  Confirmed User
                                  • Dec 2004
                                  • 4904

                                  #17
                                  From the NY Times.

                                  Of course, there is a call from the Muslim community to cut her head off.

                                  "There needs to be much more open discussion of these issues in Europe and in the wider Islamic world. Theo Van Gogh was later executed in the street in Amsterdam.


                                  As she begins to pray, the woman looks heavily veiled, showing her eyes only, but her
                                  long black chador turns out to be transparent. Beneath it, painted on her chest and
                                  stomach, are verses from the Koran.

                                  More women appear. A bride is dressed in white lace, but her back is exposed. The
                                  Koranic verse that says a man may take his woman in any manner, time or place
                                  ordained by God is written on her skin.

                                  The images roll on, now showing a woman lying on the ground, her back and legs marked
                                  by red traces of a whip. The Koranic verses on her wounded flesh say that those guilty of
                                  adultery or sex outside marriage shall be punished with 100 lashes. There are chilling
                                  sounds of a cracking whip; there is the haunting beauty of the Arabic calligraphy and soft
                                  music.

                                  These are scenes from "Submission," a 10-minute film shown on Dutch prime time
                                  television, written by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali-born refugee, now a member of the Dutch
                                  Parliament. Since the English-language film was shown in late August, it has been at the
                                  center of a national uproar, which is exactly what the author wanted.

                                  Ms. Hirsi Ali, 34, who grew up as a Muslim but has abandoned her faith, said her purpose
                                  was not to give offense but to draw attention to what she contends is widespread but
                                  hidden violence against Muslim women, even those living in Europe.

                                  She turned to the power of images, she said, to focus attention on abuse, incest, forced
                                  marriages and the suicides of young immigrant women. Despite her writing and speaking
                                  on the subject for several years, she said she felt that the subject remained a public
                                  taboo. "Muslims deny it," she said, "and many Dutch are afraid of taking it on, of causing
                                  religious tension, of being called racists."

                                  The stories of the four women in the film are composites, she says. Critics have called
                                  them simplistic, even caricatures. But the images fired up a new debate in the Netherlands
                                  on how to modernize or adapt Islam as it expands across Europe.

                                  The film has brought new death threats against her. She already has two round-the-clock
                                  government bodyguards.

                                  In this nation of 16 million people, a million of them Muslim immigrants or their
                                  descendants, Ms. Hirsi Ali is part of a small but growing group of women who say they
                                  want to spread the message that the Muslim faith can be practiced without what she
                                  calls "savage Medieval customs" like genital cutting, beatings or the confinement of
                                  women to their homes. Some of those advocates contend that modernization of Islam
                                  must come from women, particularly European Muslim women.

                                  The film and the photographs taken from it have appeared in Dutch newspapers,
                                  magazines and television shows, drawing an outpouring of both praise and outrage.


                                  "Of course it's a political pamphlet, that's undeniable," said Theo van Gogh, who directed
                                  the film and insisted that he does not see why many Muslims are so shocked. He said he
                                  was deliberately cautious, adding that if he had really wanted to shock, the film would
                                  have been different.

                                  It opens with a prayer, and then the narrator tells stories of four women who ask for
                                  God's help to lighten their suffering. According to the narrative, one was forced to marry a
                                  man she hates, one was raped and made pregnant by her uncle, one was whipped after
                                  she had sexual relations with her boyfriend and one was repeatedly beaten by her
                                  husband. The women feel abandoned by God, despite their devotion to him.

                                  As a close-up of a battered and bruised face appears, the narrator says: "Oh Allah , most
                                  high. You say that men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because you have
                                  given one more strength than the other. Yet I feel at least once a week the strength of my
                                  husband's fist on my face."

                                  The woman who was raped, says she has always turned to "you Allah, covering myself as
                                  you wish it. And now that I pray for salvation, you remain silent as the grave I long for."


                                  Critics argue that it is not the spoken text, but the writing of Koranic verses on the
                                  women's flesh makes the film blasphemous. "There's nothing wrong with what is said, this
                                  is reality," said Loubna Berrada, whose family is Moroccan and who is an advocate for
                                  women's rights. "But the nudity is wrong. It's too confrontational."

                                  But then, she went on to say, talking has not changed anything. It's the whole system, in
                                  which women participate, that must change. "The women pass on the oppression to their
                                  daughters; they educate their sons," Ms. Berrada said.

                                  The avalanche of published letters and articles reacting to the film includes one from
                                  Fadoua Bouali, a nurse in an Amsterdam hospital who said she had been shocked by the
                                  number of fearful young Muslim women who have surgery to conceal the fact that they
                                  are not virgins.

                                  "Already men on their wedding days are getting a virgin, stitched up by Jewish, Christian
                                  or atheist hands," she told the magazine De Tijd. "Is that what they want?"

                                  Carla Rus, a Dutch psychiatrist, said she had worked for 20 years with abused women in
                                  shelters, where more than half were Muslims. "Suicide attempts among foreign young
                                  women are five time higher than among local women," she said, citing studies.

                                  While the debate goes on, so do the attacks on Ms. Hirsi Ali. A rap song, played on some
                                  local radio stations, calls for her death. Chat rooms and e-mail messages announce death
                                  threats. The police in Rotterdam have just arrested a young Moroccan man whom they
                                  charged with sending a death threat to Ms. Hirsi Ali.

                                  She says she intends to continue her campaign.She recently demanded in Parliament that
                                  the minister of interior order the police to review their definition of murder in cases
                                  involving young women. She contends that at least a dozen of the annual killings of
                                  Muslim girls in the Netherlands are revenge killings by brothers, fathers or relatives. The
                                  police record them as family conflicts, she said.

                                  "Police say they want to avoid stigmatizing a group," said Ms. Hirsi Ali. "I say, we have to
                                  know the truth."

                                  In addition to the film, Ms. Hirsi Ali has published two books of essays on the plight of
                                  Muslim women, "The Son Factory" and "The Cage of Virgins."

                                  Her next project is another short film: "Submission - Part Two." She said it will feature the
                                  men's point of view. "

                                  Comment

                                  • grumpy
                                    Too lazy to set a custom title
                                    • Jan 2002
                                    • 9870

                                    #18
                                    thats why we moved to Canada.
                                    Holland is getting to crowded. But no way we would wanna move to the USA.
                                    For so many reasons.
                                    Don't let greediness blur your vision | You gotta let some shit slide
                                    icq - 441-456-888

                                    Comment

                                    • Platinumpimp
                                      Logos and such.
                                      • Jan 2004
                                      • 10214

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Phoenix
                                      anyone ever see Romper Stomper? ;) ;)

                                      dont get pushed out of your own country
                                      I saw that movie...the main character fucking the shit out of a girl on his bed with the Nazi Cross above his bed...
                                      I design logo's.

                                      Comment

                                      • Fake Nick
                                        So Fucking Banned
                                        • Jul 2004
                                        • 7708

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by ssp
                                        LOL What would you know about Holland, you live in Belgium!

                                        A normal house goes for 200k maybe if you want to live in nomansland. An average house goes for 300k easily here in the "randstad". You might want to check out the price of a Hummer too!

                                        lol , we are not talking about a FULL OPTION V8 FULL LUXURY hummer here dude ,but just a standard no frills and trills factory hummer

                                        they go for 75 000 I believe , the link you gave is a V8 Luxury , so yeah they are more , and I was told that if you want golden rims you even pay more , LOL

                                        and that house you are talking about , he compares a house in nomansland canada with a house in centre of rotterdam , and yeah thats a huge difference, but a normal house in a small town goes for 200k in holland not 300k and def not 450k like sneez said

                                        Comment

                                        • ssp
                                          Confirmed User
                                          • Jan 2005
                                          • 7990

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Fake Nick
                                          lol , we are not talking about a FULL OPTION V8 FULL LUXURY hummer here dude ,but just a standard no frills and trills factory hummer

                                          they go for 75 000 I believe , the link you gave is a V8 Luxury , so yeah they are more , and I was told that if you want golden rims you even pay more , LOL

                                          and that house you are talking about , he compares a house in nomansland canada with a house in centre of rotterdam , and yeah thats a huge difference, but a normal house in a small town goes for 200k in holland not 300k and def not 450k like sneez said
                                          You might be right on the Hummer. I haven't gone to the dealer to find out the price of a cheap model yet (and don't plan too lol). As far as the house is concerned, he was talking about a house in a decent neighbourhood and those indications aren't even that far off. Unless you want to live on the Veluwe.

                                          But hey this is a useless conversation cause who fucking cares, I really don't.

                                          Comment

                                          • Fake Nick
                                            So Fucking Banned
                                            • Jul 2004
                                            • 7708

                                            #22

                                            Comment

                                            • Project-Shadow
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • Feb 2003
                                              • 7340

                                              #23
                                              The U.K is suffering from the same problems, Islamic people are now allowed to wear full face masks when attending school etc etc. I'm getting the hell out of here A.S.A.P.

                                              Comment

                                              • Mojiteaux
                                                Confirmed User
                                                • Jul 2004
                                                • 265

                                                #24
                                                It's cowards that leave...

                                                Comment

                                                • Manowar
                                                  jellyfish  
                                                  • Dec 2003
                                                  • 71528

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Project-Shadow
                                                  The U.K is suffering from the same problems, Islamic people are now allowed to wear full face masks when attending school etc etc. I'm getting the hell out of here A.S.A.P.
                                                  werd, the government need to do something

                                                  Comment

                                                  • alexg
                                                    IL4L.com
                                                    • Aug 2003
                                                    • 11287

                                                    #26
                                                    coming soon in UK, france, and basically the rest of europe

                                                    Find fuck buddies in your area!

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Nembrionic
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Feb 2003
                                                      • 2424

                                                      #27
                                                      Last count indicates there´s about 1 mln Muslims in The Netherlands.

                                                      So 1 in 16 is a Muslim.

                                                      For me muslims wouldn´t be a reason to leave the country though. Not yet at least. But 10 years from now I think yes.(Planning on leaving way before that though)

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Mefo
                                                        Confirmed User
                                                        • Jun 2002
                                                        • 6169

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Nembrionic
                                                        Last count indicates there´s about 1 mln Muslims in The Netherlands.

                                                        So 1 in 16 is a Muslim.

                                                        For me muslims wouldn´t be a reason to leave the country though. Not yet at least. But 10 years from now I think yes.(Planning on leaving way before that though)

                                                        not true 1 at 16 is foreign, so that also includes germans, americans etc

                                                        Comment

                                                        • jp714
                                                          Registered User
                                                          • Feb 2005
                                                          • 32

                                                          #29
                                                          Well I would hate to see this thread turn to hate!

                                                          I have lived and worked with muslims :

                                                          One thing to remember with islam is :

                                                          Allah provides

                                                          hey if you spend all day banging your head on the floor he/her better (fuck i asked jesus and he said )

                                                          Convert now to my relgixne : buy low sell high lol

                                                          who gives a shit only the poor rebel (loook it up don't know yor history)

                                                          So fuck all the Gods , the gods are compassionate (not the people that clame to represent them ) Guess gods need a lot of money an wepons


                                                          I bow to the only GOD _ sex -drugs- @ whatever music makes your day

                                                          ASIAN amature Models

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Rich
                                                            So Fucking Banned
                                                            • Jan 2003
                                                            • 11486

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Phoenix
                                                            anyone ever see Romper Stomper? ;) ;)

                                                            dont get pushed out of your own country
                                                            lol, that's the message you took from that movie?

                                                            Psycho.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Sneezy
                                                              Confirmed User
                                                              • Jul 2002
                                                              • 450

                                                              #31
                                                              I know that in Belgium the cars and houses are cheaper then in Holland, so maybe that is why Fake Nick reacted on the figures in the way he did.

                                                              Talking about Belgium. I've read somewhere that they are gonna vote on the question "should Belgium stay a seperate country or not" wtf?

                                                              Maybe fake nick can shine a light on this lol

                                                              About the hummer. Can you agree on the fact that there is still a HUGE price difference even with a stripped one ?
                                                              (btw I took the price fro the Dutch hummer from autotrader; the new ones on there we're all arround 100k without tax)

                                                              no sig 4u

                                                              Comment

                                                              • DutchTeenCash
                                                                I like Dutch Girls
                                                                • Feb 2003
                                                                • 21684

                                                                #32
                                                                funny, every month or so this pops up, well all you guys leaving for the states, have fun and dont forget to keep your dutch pass, so youll be able to return in a month or 3, cause everyone thinks the states are NY LA and Miami.

                                                                Sadly enough theyre not, if you wanna live there, bring some cash, cause life there is double or more as expensive as it is here, plus muslims everywhere If you wanna live in hillbilly county be my guest, but you can do that in holland too, get a converted barn for 10k and be happy...

                                                                Ive seen many many leave and even more return... holland is the best country imho in europe, what till youre in need of social care, medical care etc and havent got cash, i wouldnt base my opinions on a one sided view... 2 cents

                                                                ICQ 16 91 547 - SKYPE dutchteencash
                                                                bob AT dutchteencash DOT com
                                                                ... did you see our newest Sweet Natural Girl Priscilla (18)?

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Nembrionic
                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                  • Feb 2003
                                                                  • 2424

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Mefo
                                                                  not true 1 at 16 is foreign, so that also includes germans, americans etc
                                                                  No, YOU are wrong.

                                                                  http://www.katholieknederland.nl/arc...002_14368.html

                                                                  In 2002 there already were 890.000 muslims over here.
                                                                  The article on that site is from ANP.

                                                                  I´m looking up the latest article I read on it as we speak.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Nembrionic
                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                    • Feb 2003
                                                                    • 2424

                                                                    #34
                                                                    http://www.rtl.nl/(/actueel/rtlnieuw...rland_1100.xml

                                                                    http://www.zqcentral.com/index/news/show/3513

                                                                    here ya go.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • CheeseFrog
                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                      • Dec 2003
                                                                      • 1724

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by VirtuMike
                                                                      You think America is not a society based on fear? Turn on American TV sometime. You'll see how much ad money sells you on fear. The entire American society is based on fear.
                                                                      Couldn't have said it better. It seems like the American people fear Islam. Just look on any message board in the US -- TONS of threads with athiests & others bashing Christianity. But when it comes to Islam the atheists know when to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down. Bring up Muslims/Islam, and suddenly all the religion bashers get all quiet. Hmm...
                                                                      Cary | AIM: cheesefrog | ICQ: 4287002

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • NickB.
                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                        • Aug 2001
                                                                        • 8865

                                                                        #36
                                                                        I left holland 5 months ago, it seems that lots of things have changed!
                                                                        I'll find out next Tuesday....

                                                                        I never experienced anything real bad with moslims living in Holland, just a couple of fights, but that could have happened with dutch guys as well.

                                                                        I have very close moslim friends in Holland, studying law at a university, a cop and 2 restaurant owners, all 100% integrated.

                                                                        Personally I would say it can be a problem in the future.... if the dutch government will not get its acts together real soon.

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                                                                        • yuvalus
                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                          • Oct 2003
                                                                          • 1906

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by alexg
                                                                          coming soon in UK, france, and basically the rest of europe

                                                                          Sad yet true

                                                                          I hope it won't happen
                                                                          Mail me: [email protected]

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                                                                          • StuartD
                                                                            Sofa King Band
                                                                            • Jul 2002
                                                                            • 29903

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by yuvalus
                                                                            Sad yet true

                                                                            I hope it won't happen
                                                                            It's odd seeing your posts without "yarh" and "scallywag" in them
                                                                            This is me on facebook
                                                                            This is me on twitter

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                                                                            • yuvalus
                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                              • Oct 2003
                                                                              • 1906

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by NichePay - StuartD
                                                                              It's odd seeing your posts without "yarh" and "scallywag" in them

                                                                              LOL
                                                                              actually it was a trick to see who's the real pirate

                                                                              I think it was g0hst
                                                                              Mail me: [email protected]

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                                                                              • StuartD
                                                                                Sofa King Band
                                                                                • Jul 2002
                                                                                • 29903

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by yuvalus
                                                                                LOL
                                                                                actually it was a trick to see who's the real pirate

                                                                                I think it was g0hst
                                                                                uh huh... sure sure
                                                                                This is me on facebook
                                                                                This is me on twitter

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                                                                                • yuvalus
                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                  • Oct 2003
                                                                                  • 1906

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by NichePay - StuartD
                                                                                  uh huh... sure sure

                                                                                  Usually when I'm arguing with someone about something like that, when both sides are sure they are right and not the other party, I offer them to make a bet

                                                                                  usually they shut up after this

                                                                                  I'll betcha for $50 (but we have to decide how can we rull out who was right)
                                                                                  Mail me: [email protected]

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