Bill Authorizing Indefinite Military Arrests Of U.S. Citizens on Senate Floor Monday

[vsex]

top o' the second page!

[DWB]

I guess you cant read very well DWB, they can come anywhere in the world to get you.

thing is DWB,. with something like that it does not matter where you are. they will come and get you.

Sure, they will get you if you are a "terrorist." That happens already. But they are not going to run down Joe Blow American citizen for no reason at all while he lives abroad. If you don't give them a reason, you won't have any problems. If you give them a reason, they will own your ass, and can do so now. The FBI has offices all around the world and will run you down if they get the call. You would have to really screw up to have the military run you down in a foreign country, when the FBI can do the same job with less man power and fewer resources.

My comment about leave while you can, means leave while you are still permitted to leave. If you think it's bad now, give it 10 more years. You'll all wish you had left and set up a life elsewhere. And if you have the means, get working on a 2nd citizenship.

[Nikki_Licks]

That would be Ridiculous if they pass some damn socialist shit like that but then again .... the citizens have lost control of this country and until they take it back need to deal with whats happening

Hopefully the people of this country will wake the fuck up. The only way to take this country back is force.....these corrupt politicians, government....etc, would rather see us dead before they give up their wealth and control

[epitome]

Drafted in secret by McCain.

To think that man was almost our President is scary.

I will have to remember that the people who voted for McCain are likely the same people against OWS and defending police actions. I can't help but to feel like I am on the correct side of the argument.

[_Richard_]

Sure, they will get you if you are a "terrorist." That happens already. But they are not going to run down Joe Blow American citizen for no reason at all while he lives abroad. If you don't give them a reason, you won't have any problems. If you give them a reason, they will own your ass, and can do so now. The FBI has offices all around the world and will run you down if they get the call. You would have to really screw up to have the military run you down in a foreign country, when the FBI can do the same job with less man power and fewer resources.

My comment about leave while you can, means leave while you are still permitted to leave. If you think it's bad now, give it 10 more years. You'll all wish you had left and set up a life elsewhere. And if you have the means, get working on a 2nd citizenship.

tell that to the 16 year old american who happened to be out for a car ride with his father, mr. number 2 of al qaeda?

lifes a bitch, then the government shoots you with a million dollar rocket

[DWB]

tell that to the 16 year old american who happened to be out for a car ride with his father, mr. number 2 of al qaeda?

lifes a bitch, then the government shoots you with a million dollar rocket

Honestly, who is going to ride around with someone from Al Qaeda, their father or otherwise, and think nothing bad will happen to them?

Easy rules to follow:

- Don't be a terrorist.

- Don't do anything to make them think you are a terrorist, including discussing terror plots or surfing Muslim extremist websites.

- Don't fund or do business with terrorists.

- Don't look like a terrorist or change your name to Muhammad.

- Don't hang out with terrorists.

[_Richard_]

Honestly, who is going to ride around with someone from Al Qaeda, their father or otherwise, and think nothing bad will happen to them?

Easy rules to follow:

- Don't be a terrorist.

- Don't do anything to make them think you are a terrorist, including discussing terror plots or surfing Muslim extremist websites.

- Don't fund or do business with terrorists.

- Don't look like a terrorist or change your name to Muhammad.

- Don't hang out with terrorists.

what 16 year old thinks something bad is going to happen to them?

and that's a cool list. i like it

why are al qaeda flags flying over courthouses in benghazi? are we 'doing business' with the very people we have been at war with for 10+ years.. again doing business.. ..doing business with, again.. you know what i mean

[PornoMonster]

You have to be kidding. Obama's stance was to finish up Iraq as fast as possible and get us out and redirect focus on Afghan and other hot spots like Pakistan boarders.

McCain was all for dragging out Iraq and keeping Afghan as the forgotten war. The reason being Iraq war was much more profitable for US business interest. The reality was it was US contractors milking the tax payers dry vs real economic growth from re-developing the country of Iraq.

Remember Bush claiming the rebuilding of Iraq would come from their oil sales? Umm yeah .. opps sorry guys, guess he got that one wrong, It's you the tax payers whom are flipping the bill.

The two couldn't have been completely further apart on their views of the so called war on terror. McCain would have continued a losing Bush strategy that would have probably bankrupted this country.

Whatever the "reasons" it is Still War on Terror, and costing billions ontop of billions.
Most people in my red state that voted for Obama, was riding on his claim we are spending to much money on the Wars..... Sure what he might of said in the run around political voice, and what was coming across to the people, are two different things.. Called good politics.

I do not need I am wrong or right, I am making a statement based on what other told me they were voting for....

[Rochard]

Hasn't the US Military always had this ability? NCIS, CID, etc? These are law enforcement agencies of the various military branches, staffed by civilians, but under orders of the military. They can arrest civilians.

I think the general public would be stunned if they knew what powers the President of the US has. The president has what's called "Executive Orders" that pretty much gives him unlimited power. If you have any doubt about this, check out Executive Order 9066. Some of the Executive Orders are really out there, such as taking over all transportation in the US and all communication.

[DWB]

what 16 year old thinks something bad is going to happen to them?

and that's a cool list. i like it

why are al qaeda flags flying over courthouses in benghazi? are we 'doing business' with the very people we have been at war with for 10+ years.. again doing business.. ..doing business with, again.. you know what i mean

The war is/was bogus. There is no war on terror and no one is fighting for our freedom. No one hates us for our freedom, and it's not better to fight them over there so we don't fight them here. All nonsense. Like every other war, it's about Empire and resources. Period.

That said, I'm still not going to roll with anyone from Al Qaeda.

[DWB]

Hasn't the US Military always had this ability? NCIS, CID, etc? These are law enforcement agencies of the various military branches, staffed by civilians, but under orders of the military. They can arrest civilians.

I think the general public would be stunned if they knew what powers the President of the US has. The president has what's called "Executive Orders" that pretty much gives him unlimited power. If you have any doubt about this, check out Executive Order 9066. Some of the Executive Orders are really out there, such as taking over all transportation in the US and all communication.

I was under the same impression. They have always just taken people they want. Not sure if it was legal, but it's been done for a while. And there is no telling what goes on that the public never knows about.

[crockett]

Whatever the "reasons" it is Still War on Terror, and costing billions ontop of billions.
Most people in my red state that voted for Obama, was riding on his claim we are spending to much money on the Wars..... Sure what he might of said in the run around political voice, and what was coming across to the people, are two different things.. Called good politics.

I do not need I am wrong or right, I am making a statement based on what other told me they were voting for....

Obama was very clear in the fact he intended to pull us out of Iraq but to further pursue the war in Afghan and in other places the tangos were hiding (ie Pakistan)

Anyone whom thought he was going to end both wars, clearly didn't listen to what he was saying and heard what they wanted to hear. He said it many times that he intended to refocus on the war in Afghan something that has already paid it's dividends with the death of bin Laden as well as several other high ranking al qaeda members.

[Nikki_Licks]

The war is/was bogus. There is no war on terror and no one is fighting for our freedom. No one hates us for our freedom, and it's not better to fight them over there so we don't fight them here. All nonsense. Like every other war, it's about Empire and resources. Period.

So TRUE!!

[_Richard_]

The war is/was bogus. There is no war on terror and no one is fighting for our freedom. No one hates us for our freedom, and it's not better to fight them over there so we don't fight them here. All nonsense. Like every other war, it's about Empire and resources. Period.

That said, I'm still not going to roll with anyone from Al Qaeda.

empire and resources? lots of fallen empires, yet seems to be pretty static players in regards to resources etc

[theking]

Obama was very clear in the fact he intended to pull us out of Iraq but to further pursue the war in Afghan and in other places the tangos were hiding (ie Pakistan)

Anyone whom thought he was going to end both wars, clearly didn't listen to what he was saying and heard what they wanted to hear. He said it many times that he intended to refocus on the war in Afghan something that has already paid it's dividends with the death of bin Laden as well as several other high ranking al qaeda members.

You are correct.

[Rochard]

I was under the same impression. They have always just taken people they want. Not sure if it was legal, but it's been done for a while. And there is no telling what goes on that the public never knows about.

I've watched NCIS work before. For the most part they are no different than your local police detectives. I find it hard to believe that anyone at that level would make people "disappear". If the government wanted to do that, I'm sure they could do it. At the same time, I don't believe that kind of crap goes on - if so, there would be a lot more people missing.

The war is/was bogus. There is no war on terror and no one is fighting for our freedom. No one hates us for our freedom, and it's not better to fight them over there so we don't fight them here. All nonsense. Like every other war, it's about Empire and resources. Period.

That said, I'm still not going to roll with anyone from Al Qaeda.

What empire building? We are pulling out of Iraq, and Afghanistan holds no interest to anyone. I think the concept of "empire building" went out with WWII.

[wehateporn]

What empire building?! lol the USA has bases in like 150 different counties and are picking off country by country that doesn't have a Rothschild operated central banking system

[theking]

What empire building?! lol the USA has bases in like 150 different counties and are picking off country by country that doesn't have a Rothschild operated central banking system

No...we do not have bases in "like 150 different country's". Every country that we have an Embassy we have military personnel to protect the Embassy. What country's are we picking off one by one?

[JFK]

There was a reason obama got elected... CHANGE!

Not exactly working out like the people that elected him thought it would.

I want my 50 cents back ..................

[PornoMonster]

Obama was very clear in the fact he intended to pull us out of Iraq but to further pursue the war in Afghan and in other places the tangos were hiding (ie Pakistan)

Anyone whom thought he was going to end both wars, clearly didn't listen to what he was saying and heard what they wanted to hear. He said it many times that he intended to refocus on the war in Afghan something that has already paid it's dividends with the death of bin Laden as well as several other high ranking al qaeda members.

Ask a HUGE % that voted for him what they thought Obama was going to do!

[PornoMonster]

Not to mention Him and the Left going on and on and on about
War Criminal
Unfunded War
Wars costing way to Much

Yes, I believe once people heard this, they didn't hear him say .... not so many words

I am going to do the same just in Different places.

[PornoMonster]

I, Yes can go back and look at what was said.
I did not Vote for him, my guy didn't even make it to the race.

I just feel Very Strongly about how this affected many Americans, most will not admit they were politicaly misled. Just to you know I am against ALL Political people doing this exact same thing with ANY matter.

[Evil1]

reading, it's to much effort

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...KSKSc:e464889:

(b) Applicability to United States Citizens and Lawful Resident Aliens-

(1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.

[Failed]

reading, it's to much effort

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...KSKSc:e464889:

(b) Applicability to United States Citizens and Lawful Resident Aliens-

(1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.

(4) WAIVER FOR NATIONAL SECURITY.?The Secretary of Defense may, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National In
telligence, waive the requirement of paragraph (1) if the Secretary submits to Congress a certification in writing that such a waiver is in the national security interests of the United States.

Reading, it's too much effort.

[munki]

Not sure how many more signs you need. Get out while you still can.

Life is pretty damn good abroad.

Have you renounced citizenship?

[u-Bob]

I think the general public would be stunned if they knew what powers the President of the US has. The president has what's called "Executive Orders" that pretty much gives him unlimited power.

There's no doubt that they have the ability to do a lot of 'unimaginable things', but the real question is "do they have the right to do so?". Might does not make right. Those executive orders were originally intended as a means to clarify existing laws or direct agencies/departments to implement existing laws.

[Fletch XXX]

The Senate is going to vote on whether Congress will give this president—and every future president — the power to order the military to pick up and imprison without charge or trial civilians anywhere in the world.

i am armed and will shoot anyone who come to my house with a gun pointed at me.

this is america.

locked and loaded.

[Shotsie]

You have to be kidding. Obama's stance was to finish up Iraq as fast as possible and get us out and redirect focus on Afghan and other hot spots like Pakistan boarders.

McCain was all for dragging out Iraq and keeping Afghan as the forgotten war. The reason being Iraq war was much more profitable for US business interest. The reality was it was US contractors milking the tax payers dry vs real economic growth from re-developing the country of Iraq.

Remember Bush claiming the rebuilding of Iraq would come from their oil sales? Umm yeah .. opps sorry guys, guess he got that one wrong, It's you the tax payers whom are flipping the bill.

The two couldn't have been completely further apart on their views of the so called war on terror. McCain would have continued a losing Bush strategy that would have probably bankrupted this country.

I agree, that's where the and then some part comes in. Although, from listening to Obama's campaign rhetoric I was under the impression that he would be taking a more isolationist stance on the middle east, and that the majority of ground troops would be out of there by now. He promised a 16 month exit, it's been around 30 months now.

[cykoe6]

if they can re-write the bill so it defines exactly who can be detained indefinitely it would help - if they restrict it to dirty hippy commies and muslims i think it's a bill the majority will support.

Yea........ that is true....... obviously we can all agree that filthy hippies and rabid jihadists have it coming........ but unfortunately the government passes these laws in the interest of national security and then uses them for domestic police enforcement in the "drug war" like they did with roving wiretaps. The government cannot be trusted to limit itself to actual national security threats.

[theking]

I agree, that's where the and then some part comes in. Although, from listening to Obama's campaign rhetoric I was under the impression that he would be taking a more isolationist stance on the middle east, and that the majority of ground troops would be out of there by now. He promised a 16 month exit, it's been around 30 months now.

The 16 month exit was for combat units in Iraq and they have been removed.

[crockett]

Ask a HUGE % that voted for him what they thought Obama was going to do!

Again.. He was very clear on what he intended to do.. Anyone whom didn't listen heard what they wanted to hear.

If people mis-understood this message they clearly did not listen..This was one of "many" times he said the same thing. Hell he even said it in the debates. If people didn't understand this, then they voted for him with-out informing themselves.

I voted for him mainly on his stance on the wars in both Iraq & Afghan, I felt the wars were the most important factor for this county at that time. He was the only guy that had a reality check as to what had to happen for us to be successful in both wars. Like him or not but Obama was spot on with his views on the wars and he has done a better job that what I personally expected from him in regard to them.

[raymor]

reading, it's to much effort

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...KSKSc:e464889:

(b) Applicability to United States Citizens and Lawful Resident Aliens-

(1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.

Actual information citing a source, thank you! We spend so much time arguing about stuff without bothering to get the facts first, arguing from ignorance.

[raymor]

Originally Posted by : (4) WAIVER FOR NATIONAL SECURITY. The Secretary of Defense may, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National In telligence, waive the requirement of paragraph (1) if the Secretary submits to Congress a certification in writing that such a waiver is in the national security interests of the United States.

Also useful information, thank you. So if I'm reading that right, if the Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Director of National Intelligence all three agree and submit the petition to congress, someone in the US could be arrested. That's probably good that all three of them have to sign off on an array AND submit each to congress.

[Failed]

Also useful information, thank you. So if I'm reading that right, if the Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Director of National Intelligence all three agree and submit the petition to congress, someone in the US could be arrested. That's probably good that all three of them have to sign off on an array AND submit each to congress.

The scary part: do they only have to sign off once and that's it, all Americans, at anytime, can now be detained indefinitely by the military? It doesn't say, and if it's a bill with such power, I think it should clarify such things. I'm sure that's what draws the most concern from people, is the lack of specifics and the wording which could lead to a massive abuse of power.

Here is a link to the pdf of the bill: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...12s1867pcs.pdf

It's 682 pages long. The parts that are of concern in this matter begin on page 359. Sec 1031, 1032, and 1033. Page 359 is the beginning of Sec 1031.

If you really read and make note of which sections and paragraphs apply to other sections and paragraphs you may be able to understand the document and why people are so concerned. It also apparently draws regulations from other documents, which are referenced, and makes it even more challenging to truly understand.

[Redrob]

According to our laws, I'd imagine the Posse Comitatus Act would come into play.

The Posse Comitatus Act is an often misunderstood and misquoted United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of Reconstruction. Its intent (in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807) was to limit the powers of local governments and law enforcement agencies from using federal military personnel to enforce the laws of the land. Contrary to popular belief, the Act does not prohibit members of the Army from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order"; it simply requires that any orders to do so must originate with the United States Constitution or Act of Congress.

Here is a link to its Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

[raymor]

The scary part: do they only have to sign off once and that's it, all Americans, at anytime, can now be detained indefinitely by the military? It doesn't say, and if it's a bill with such power, I think it should clarify such things. I'm sure that's what draws the most concern from people, is the lack of specifics and the wording which could lead to a massive abuse of power.

Here is a link to the pdf of the bill: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...12s1867pcs.pdf

It's 682 pages long. The parts that are of concern in this matter begin on page 359. Sec 1031, 1032, and 1033. Page 359 is the beginning of Sec 1031.

If you really read and make note of which sections and paragraphs apply to other sections and paragraphs you may be able to understand the document and why people are so concerned. It also apparently draws regulations from other documents, which are referenced, and makes it even more challenging to truly understand.

Yeah perhaps it should be more clear how broad a waiver can be. Perhaps each waiver needs to list the name or names of the people they want to question, so it's clear they can't get a waiver for "terrorism suspects" or similar.

I hate it when bills are real complex, with lots of cross references, so it's hard to understand. Most, especially at the state level, really aren't that difficult so it surprises me that so many people argue about them without ever reading them. Perhaps they believe Pelosi "we have to pass the bill to see what's in it."

[Mutt]

The major Tax Exempt Foundations, who are known to be behind the wars that involve the US, have been showing our teens these adverts. Teaching them to comply when the time comes

you are such a fucking kook. the message in those ads is exactly the opposite of what your wacko paranoia says it is.

i'm sure now that it's the holiday season you'll have some conspiracy theory about Santa Clause.

[wehateporn]

you are such a fucking kook. the message in those ads is exactly the opposite of what your wacko paranoia says it is.

If modern Nazi's had funded that same advert, many wouldn't trust it; they would suspect there was more to it than met the eye. On this occasion it's the major tax exempt foundations who are partners with Think MTV; birds of a feather flock together. We know that those foundations are behind the major wars. We know that one of the same families who funded the Nazis are also behind one of the most prominent of the tax exempt organizations.

The evidence is there for those who look for it

[porno jew]

If modern Nazi's had funded that same advert, many wouldn't trust it; they would suspect there was more to it than met the eye. On this occasion it's the major tax exempt foundations who are partners with Think MTV; birds of a feather flock together. We know that those foundations are behind the major wars. We know that one of the same families who funded the Nazis are also behind one of the most prominent of the tax exempt organizations.

The evidence is there for those who look for it

sorry not even the most fervid conspiracy nut would interpret that commercial like that. i have known people irl who went down this path and ended up with them on disability, diagnosed with schizophrenia, pretty much a waste of life. prob best for you at this point to be blunt with what is going on with your family and friends and seek medical help.

[helterskelter808]

Let's face it, if they really want to, US Government (agencies) can already do WTF they like to anyone, anywhere, home or abroad, and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it. 99% of people just happen to be not significant enough to warrant the effort.

As for people claiming life is better or more free outside the US... where are these utopias? Asia? Latin America? Russia?

The only reason to live in some stinking, polluted, endemically corrupt, backwater police state in Asia or Latin America is if you're too broke to afford putas in the civilized world (where most in the third world would kill to live) and/or you're addicted to tranny cock.

And the only reason to live in Russia is if you're a criminal and/or mentally deranged.

[wehateporn]

sorry not even the most fervid conspiracy nut would interpret that commercial like that. i have known people irl who went down this path and ended up with them on disability, diagnosed with schizophrenia, pretty much a waste of life. prob best for you at this point to be blunt with what is going on with your family and friends and seek medical help.

“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.” Socrates

There are people who's spent decades researching advertising and how to make people respond in the way you'd like them to. There are all kinds of techniques that can be used, for example http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...cientists.html

[Caligari]

Those MTV videos were made in 2008- Ron Paul picked up on them and kind of co-opted them for his own angle even though I couldn't find any direct connection to Paul and the videos.
http://www.dailypaul.com/41340/mtv-t...people-like-us

think.mtv now redirects to act.mtv and i can't find those videos on there anymore.

.

[porno jew]

?The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.? Socrates

why are you quoting that? what you know about socrates and what do you think that quote means?

[helterskelter808]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sócrates

[porno jew]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sócrates

ok you got me there.

[uno]

Yeah perhaps it should be more clear how broad a waiver can be. Perhaps each waiver needs to list the name or names of the people they want to question, so it's clear they can't get a waiver for "terrorism suspects" or similar.

I hate it when bills are real complex, with lots of cross references, so it's hard to understand. Most, especially at the state level, really aren't that difficult so it surprises me that so many people argue about them without ever reading them. Perhaps they believe Pelosi "we have to pass the bill to see what's in it."

Psst... This is a very common 'quote' i see people using. If you took the quote in context and didn't just listen to talking points you'd know that. The clip was edited and cut short. You can view the whole thing here:



Here is the text:

You've heard about the controversies within the bill, the process about the bill, one or the other items. But I don't know if you have heard that it is legislation for the future, not just about health care for America, but about a healthier America, where preventive care is not something that you have to pay a deductible for or out of pocket. Prevention, prevention, prevention? it's about diet, not diabetes. It's going to be very, very exciting.

But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.

Convenient that the end of the sentence is always left out when someone quotes it, isn't it?

[porno jew]

Convenient that the end of the sentence is always left out when someone quotes it, isn't it?

yes looks like some people only like to do research selectively.

[DWB]

I've watched NCIS work before. For the most part they are no different than your local police detectives. I find it hard to believe that anyone at that level would make people "disappear". If the government wanted to do that, I'm sure they could do it. At the same time, I don't believe that kind of crap goes on - if so, there would be a lot more people missing.

I don't know about people going missing, but I'm sure it happens from time to time. My comment was more about the government running people down abroad.

What empire building? We are pulling out of Iraq, and Afghanistan holds no interest to anyone. I think the concept of "empire building" went out with WWII.

We have well over 100 military bases around the world. For what?

And as the troops pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan, there will be bases left behind occupied by our troops.

Lets also not forget, as troops are pulled out, the government is paying private military companies to go in and take over. So while we won't have many "American soldiers" on the streets there, we will have "American mercenaries" who have taken their place. But mercs don't make the news, so no one will care about that or the atrocities they will be involved in.

Have you renounced citizenship?

Not yet. Renouncing is the easy part, getting a 2nd citizenship is the difficult part. Unfortunately, you can't do one without the other. However, I'd like to make it happen within the next 5 years. But I have been setting up life on the ground and putting my ducks in a row. It's just the passport that is the last hurdle. Unfortunately, I don't make the kind of money needed to make it happen as fast as I'd like.

I didn't used to think I would ever want to renounce my US citizenship, but these days it's painfully clear that the country is heading in a direction I want nothing to do with. I am not proud to tell people I'm American anymore, and I find that a bit shameful. Americans are also not the most favorably looked upon abroad these days. It's amazing what a decade can do to a reputation.

However, I'm very thankful I was raised in what was at that time a great country, but now that I have a choice, I just want to be left alone and not have to worry about whatever shenanigans come from the USA. All of this nonsense has happened more or less in a decade. I can't imagine what another decade or two is going to do to the country, and heaven help everyone there if another attack is successfully pulled off on American soil. Of course I don't hope that happens, but I believe it inevitably will.

[DWB]

It's so corrupt that when private auditors forced the government to admit $2.7 trillion in military spending was unaccounted for on 9/10/2001 - Terrorist slammed planes into the world trade centers the very next day.

You forgot to add and they slammed coincidentally into the very place where any records for that missing money would have been kept.

[Solace]

Predicted Times.