JSWENSON

If you read the profiles there you will see girl after girl after girl posting stuff like "If you use my pictures, videos or webcam stream without my permission you will be reported!!!!" I also often see them complaining on sites like reddit that they found their image being used "without permission" on website x or y and they always link to a site that is, get this, promoting them on Chaturbate!

As if that's not bad enough now I see some have a big fat DMCA logo that opens up with the chatroom. Whether or not this is enforced by Chaturbate is irrelevant, by letting the models think they have this kind of control over their content it only creates grief when they inevitably stumble across their pics or live feed on a white label site.

I am positive it is in the Chaturbate TOS they agree to that their content will be used on affiliate sites but nobody wants to deal with pissed off camgirls on social media sites.

A non confrontational person would simply talk to these girls and explain what is going on before using their content. Go ahead and try that one day though! 99.9% of them immediately think that you are trying to scam them somehow or that you want to "make money off of their stuff" which is a resounding DUH.

The entire business model revolves around affiliates sending traffic to cam models and the tools provided allow us to host streaming cam shows of these girls on whatever site we want.

Wouldn't it make much more sense to make this situation clear on an information page and direct all cam models that cry about it to that page to read up on how the traffic they profit off of is generated? Then affiliates and Chaturbate support could drop a link and leave it be instead of giving these people the idea that we are doing something wrong by embedding their cam room, etc.

Giving them the option to disallow outside promotion would be fine, and I know they can deny being shown on affiliated sites. The ones that don't pay attention still complain / cause trouble and it's rather silly. If they opted out they should get no promotion support and a big banner above their cam (on their end) that tells them why they are outperformed by the less dense.

Semi mild rant here but this has been going on since the Clickcash days and it's ridiculous in every way.

Goethe

Very good points. I had the same concern myself. I started this thread https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-pr...ate-tools.html as basically, some affiliate programs lack up to date model photos which can be used for a write up of that model. Like you, I don't want somebody sending out DMCA's or writs if I try to promote them. Maybe affiliate programs could update tools with DMCA threat free photos or whatever?

LouiseLloyd

Same applies with solo porn star sites, porn stars complaining you're using their content (exclusively to promote their site) and have to explain that you're an affiliate and tell them to contact their webmaster to explain how it works!

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DanS

Whitelabels or CB promotions are one thing.
I am sure most of them won't mind extra promotion.

However, idiots are recording the shows and upload them to xhamster etc., with no reference to CB or the performer. I personally know a performer, and xhamster for example is conviniently flying ads on illegally recorded and uploaded chaturbate content for their own white label of a DIFFERENT cam site.

This is what performers are concerned about.

Additionally, there are tons of small blogs and also content lockers pirating the recordings and monetize it with premium download fees.

It is absolutely expected, that the average performer can not tell the difference between a rogue xhamster upload and a legit CB promotion. And the only way to fight shit, are the ways you described in the OP.

On CB performers can opt out of white labels as well, if they really want it.

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blackmonsters

I used "sponsor approved" content for all sponsors.
I have no idea why cams would be different.

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DanS

Example: Chaturbate Karynaandpaul - xHamster.com

For the performer, it is basicly impossible to control where there stuff ends up.
So it is only natural, that they are trying to protect their work. And for a lot of CB models, it would also be privacy issues.

It is a difference, if an illegal recording hits it good on the tubes and recieves hundreds of thousands of views on day one making them nothing with an extremely higher chance of mom and dad stumble upon it, than rubbing one out to a few hundred audience or even private show.

Just trying to explain where they are coming from.

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Jel

Literally all of this happens with regular paysites too, but you don't see the models causing anywhere near as much fuss. Seems camgirls don't really understand they are the same as paysite performers (when working out of CB, streamate, etc) and there is an army of people driving traffic to the sites.

Ofc the ones who swap watermarks should be gone after, but that again is no different than regular paysite content being rewatermarked for a different destination.

If the average performer can't tell that a site she appears on that has links to her room/bio on the site she performs on, ....well - is that really even possible?

DanS

You can't compare a paysite model who signed a model release with a broadcaster on a free camsite.

They never signed model releases.

Performers are broadcasting live. That is the content you can use to promote them.
You can do that in various ways, embedding rooms, white labels etc.

If you record the content without permission of the performer and stream it on your sites, it is a different situation. You are assuming too much. I doubt that CB is the copyright holders of screen records and I doubt that anyone can just record what they like and use it how they like without permission.

It is like fucking that prostitute, recording it, and than use the material as an online ad for the brothel.
Hey, she fucked here, so I can record here and use the tape as I please?

Sometimes it is healthy to change chairs and try to understand what is causing what.

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CPA-Rush

only if could write long paragraphs ..

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Jel

I don't, because it's too much hassle, even when the camsite says I can (I'm sure each company differs slightly with their T&C's with regards to that in their performer contracts).

I'm not au fait with the world of camming as some, but I'd be amazed if the performers didn't sign a contract with a form of release to enable the site to broadcast the shows, else there'd be a huge can of worms right there, and I'd also be pretty surprised if within that contract there wasn't mention of using the performances (stills at the very least) for promotional use.

I may be well off the mark though, and it isn't just (and excuse my bluntness here, which certainly isn't directed at them all) thick as shit cam performers that's the (main) problem

Jel

I was too quick lol

Nah, that analogy isn't the same at all (unless the brothel has an affiliate program, streams sessions live on the interwebs, with zero paywall, and stipulates in the workers' contract that sessions are the property of the brothel, and may be used for promotional purposes)

If there *isn't* a part in the contract where promotional use is stated, then yeah, I agree. Goes back to what was stated earlier about approved sponsor content

DanS

Actually, you are right and I am wrong. I just checked the performer agreement which is virtually signed:

Rights Granted to Site. I hereby grant to Site the right to distribute my Services through any and all media now existing or hereinafter created including without limitation on the Site. I grant to Site the perpetual, universal right to record, edit and exploit my Services for purposes of advertising and promoting the Site on which my Services appear and to promote and advertise my Services and to generally promote the Site and its affiliated entities, including, without limitation, other performers who provide similar services. I authorize others to use my name, any and all stage names and aliases, and biography, resume, signature, caricature, voice and likeness (collectively, the ?Name and Likeness?) for and in connection with the provision of the Services on websites owned and/or operated by Site and/or third parties, and all advertising (including the Name and Likeness on websites, banner ads, written publications and the like), merchandising, commercial tie-ups, publicity, and other means of exploitation of any and all rights pertaining to the Services and any element thereof. I agree to sign any and all reasonable documentation requested by Site to perfect the rights granted herein.






Still, this does not give promoting webmasters the right to record shows and take stills from bios and use it for promotion. And CB won't take stuff from performers and add it to webmasters promo materials without extra consent.

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Barry-xlovecam

Our models at XloveCam are not allowed to make DMCA notices on our site but I do understand the reasoning for allowing that feature for more ''amateur'' and ''independent'' webcam model recruitment.

Models are people and their privacy wishes will vary. Cam porn is not totally legal in many places so the models may want to limit their exposure to police shakedowns or arrest -- this sort of thing happens in a lot of places globally. The other aspect is not having her images along with "You are going to hell b/c god hates you!" captions posted by nutcases on Facebook for maybe someone she knows to see (shame factor).

Respect the model's wishes and only use program authorized images. I always suggest hotlink because we may honor a model's request to remove images so by hotlink you will never get DMCA or emails from her new boyfriend impersonating a lawyer -- I have seen that happen occasionally to affiliates using cached images...

XloveCash offers XML feeds with images (the URL) for 1000's of images from 1000's of models -- these are the images uploaded by models and authorized for XloveCam and its XloveCash Affiliates use.

JSWENSON

What you just quoted literally gives the site permission to let webmasters use their images and recording as long as they are promoting the site. It even mentions voice in there.

I am mostly glad that I'm not the only one with this problem. Someone mentioned private shows but Chaturbate shows are mainly in public, sometimes with 5000+ in the room. It would be better to educate the models than make them think things are a different way. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement and if someone did good work on promotions they'd have daily complaints from these models and that is ridiculous.

Barry-xlovecam

"it would be better to educate the models"

Be careful what you ask for you might get it ... The models don't need you -- you need them to make conversions and sales.

Goethe

Maybe cam sites should look at asking models to provide some "promo sets" of photos for affiliate use? Similarly, why aren't cam models making more use of YouTube, Vimeo etc. to drive traffic? A short promo vid or non naked teasing with a link would be another traffic driver. I was searching for some to embed and found jack shit.

nm_

Can understand the whole pirating/rewatermarking issue, but this has always puzzled me too

I need YOUR content to promote YOUR show

Go figure

gnawledge

I've received probably 50 DMCA letters from these webcam performers crying about their stuff on my sites.

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DanS

Yes.
But sites won't just give out that permission to webmasters like that, for the reasons Barry and me mentioned above.

And:
Even on CB, there are few girls who are very business minded.
Girls who are on like 12h daily, they play new games with the viewers every time you see them, new costumes all the time, etc...

If you really need custom promo content, just approach them, explain them their advantages or what to expect. Maybe they are business. Maybe not.

Still better than secretly taking records of auntie judie stuffing her 1970 dildo into her without permission.

I mean, come on. If you just take stuff from performers, you are breaking the rules, not them, yet you complain about them being stupid for not letting you.

Privacy is a big issue for a lot of them.
Even if the shows are public. There simply is a huge difference of having your broadcast for a few thousand viewers, and having your stuff all over the net.

And believe me, for every "legit" CB promo, there are a hundred cases where the performers get completely ripped off. No wonder they go berserk if they see your ads flying their content.

The performer I know, is selling her videos via the CB bio.
But she is hosting them off CB. Biggest concern here was that CB stripped off audio and the compression level of CB videos are terrible. But hosting it off site certainly helps as well with the copyrights, after reviewing the performers agreement.

Still, there are 90 minute videos hitting the tubes of her taking it in the ass getting thousands of views. No references to the CB room what so ever.

All I am saying is, that I understand where this is coming from.

And yes, there are lots of clueless tools on camsites, where you wonder how they managed how they turned on their PC or to connect a webcam. And it is absolutely in the nature of the game.

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JFK

Recently, a pic of mine was posted on FB, a group shot. My logos were blurred.

So I sent the poster a pm, telling her, its my picture and copyright and I do not want any shots altered.

She replied within minutes, saying it wasn't her, but one of the others in the picture, who objected to the sponsor logo and offered to remove the pic.

I explained, that its people like my sponsor, who ultimately help make things go around in the biz, with their funding.

She was very pleasant, agreed with the concept, as I am here to provide extra eyes, for their business, at no charge to them.

So here are 4 girls missing out on some free promo, because a 5th one objected, to a pic, which she posed for.

Anyone who actually wants a particular shot, can have them without a logo, for their personal use at no charge.

I will be monitoring how many more situations develop, when all the shots are posted.

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Jel

what does this have to do with what the OP asked though? Legit affiliates, with clearly marked, and easily spottable/clickable links to CB?

It's like Lisa Ann sending DMCAs to every webmaster who uses her watermarked pics/videos to send to the site she shot that scene for. Just because most camgirls are too dumb to realise that, doesn't make it the fault of legit webmasters who have sought and gained approval from the sponsor/camsite. I think the point is we can all understand that the camgirls don't understand how that works, and sympathise that some people rip off their work (just like with any other adult site), but they are actually hitting legit webmasters with repeated DMCAs which can harm their totally legit business, because:

a) they don't know any better
b) think they are being 'ripped off' somehow
c) have the absurd notion they can shove a cucumber in their asshole on a free streaming platform, and think that nobody else on the internet will ever get to see it

I guess if you don't know, then you don't know, so is it the camgirls' fault, or the camsites'... A decent shooter will make sure a newcomer knows the scope of how far her content will reach, and what a model release actually is. Maybe the cam companies are so keen to get new performers that that info is deliberately fuzzied (though I'm just playing devil's advocate here tbh).

..and Barry, please... 'they don't need you' that may be true for less than 1% of girls who know how to generate and drive their own traffic, but that's a pretty strange thing to say.

The OP isn't about pirates and thieves, that plague every form of digital delivery there is, but about legit webmasters using approved content dealing with dumbfuck DMCA's that are baseless.

Petra

If I had a quarter for every model, cam girl or otherwise, that had asked for content to be removed over the past 8 years, I'd have a nice little sum of money set aside.

What I've learned over the years is most models, cam girls, etc have no idea about the business side of what they're doing and think they own the content. They've no idea what an affiliate or affiliate program is. I've also learned it pays to know the program's TOS, or have written permission, so you're always in the right when this pops up.

Then you can simply send them off to the program to work it out.

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robwod

You know, we've actually had models send us pics and ask us to edit the copyright / program name out of the images and replace it with her site url and a copyright notice in her name. We simply refuse. Some get pissed off, some do not. In the end, they can either do it with us proper, or not at all. Most understand when it is explained to them why we cannot do that. Others truly believe, as you've stated, that they own the content.

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Barry-xlovecam

Just by what you said above this quote I know you have never run a cam site. We are not shooters for one thing -- we have 6,000 active model working for us -- how many models worked this week for you? It can be like herding cats but without my models being happy we don't turn millions a month how many million did you turn this month?

Traffic is a commodity -- models generate the traffic's ROI.

epitome

They're talking about the people who record their entire show and put it up on tubes in a non-affiliate way. That happens a TON.

Even Chaturbate doesn't want you recording entire shows and putting them up on tube sites. That does nothing to benefit the models or Chaturbate.

Barry-xlovecam

That may be their intent but copying is copying. In example: A model is gettin' it on with her Hitachi in a public cam room and that video gets screen capped and put on user's Twitter pages and the like.

Unregistered copyright is not applicable to impromptu performances like in the old Yahoo chat rooms on a public cam. Yahoo will limit any copyright claim to that of nonexclusive right to enable the broadcast; if someone is sexually abusing a child on a Yahoo or Skype cam Yahoo or Microsoft are the first deniers of any responsibility -- their copyright license was only for purposes of transmission (broadcast) and they make no claim of ownership of content.

Copyright is applicable to a planned performances made to be compensated for -- performances not impromptu. A webcam shows, whether in public or private, are copyright. Copyright and the right of publicity can intersect and are always granted by the maker of the performance the right of publicity is first held in the maker's rights.

So, under US State legal statutes; while their applicability and jurisdiction may be faulty to the particulars of the the claimant and respondent, these same legal concepts may have standing in many global jurisdictions.

Jel

My "I'm not au fait with the world of camming as some" didn't give it away before that then?

Who said you were a shooter?

That's great you turned millions this month, and even more impressive you did all that without the use of a single affiliate, or media buy on a site run by a guy/team that does affiliate marketing, since your inception. Well done.

Maybe use some of that money to buy a course on reading comprehension

Barry-xlovecam

^see above: non-exclusive copyright and not absolute copyright -- there is a difference.
Again, we have over 6,000 ACTIVE models and near 1,000 ACTIVE affiliates to get along with and keep the peace with all parties -- this is managed with just 15 people to do the job -- so the "island is peaceful usually."

Jel

right, so I'm saying shooters are not cam companies, and vice-versa...

there are crossed wires here, because we aren't talking about the same things, so I'm gonna jump out of this thread


ETA:
Actually I've just seen where the confusion is - I stated 'decent shooter' so the thread didn't get sidetracked with people saying 'not all shooters do', my (devil's advocate) point being a shooter does abc, a cam company does xyz, not that a decent cam company = a decent shooter.

Goethe

I don't think people necessarily want to rip vids or screen caps against the performers wishes (pirates obviously don't give a shit and will do whatever they want) I personally would be happy with three or four model approved photos and a brief vid to embed if poss.

My solution at the moment is to embed tweets, but that's just a great big leak.

Goethe

Oops, double post.

Whilst I'm here, programs could ask their models if they want to opt in or not to promo material for affiliates and then list it. If the model is not listed, they simply lose additional free promotion.

JSWENSON

The models need the entire system as a whole. Would there be cams without affiliates? Absolutely. Would the girls make nearly as much money? Absolutely not.

Anyhow, I was asking why they keep the models in the dark about webmasters. Most of them have no idea that they are being promoted at all, those 5000 viewers just magically appear.

Barry-xlovecam

Most Models do not understand effective marketing and most Affiliates are insensitive to Model needs. You ever try to please 5,000+ women? It is like herding cats.

That said, I will try to ask Models to expand the promotional content available to Affiliates and provide more promotional content but they probably not fulfill individual webmaster/affiliate requests.

https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-pr...cs-inside.html

We do make an effort but "moar is better"

JSWENSON

I didn't even notice this comment. "Sponsor approved" content for cams typically fucking sucks. It's terrible, which is why good cam webmasters create their own from screenshots or similar.

Securom

For what you have affiliate program if models don't need webmasters?

rogueteens

I love it when cam models start sprouting naïve political or social comments, thinking that they are now the font of all knowledge just because they got their twats out on camera.

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Brian mike

I have work ALL my Freacking life with womens.... Not cam shit but more in real life.

as Massage Parlor owner - Strip Club Bouncer - Escort Agency Owner - well some will say LOL .

After many years trying to understand how a women think ... I just give up and retired from those business.

Affiliate or not , if you want to Work in the sex industry online or in real life involving women Well BE READY TO DO MANY COMPROMISE you like it or not.

As Barry say :
Totaly agree with this

Sad but True

JSWENSON

Actually I don't need them. When a sponsor is a dick about it I pull links. When necessary I can source content and not have to worry with the drama, it's just stupid to do so when I could be promoting the actual idiot on cam.

Barry-xlovecam

This is an old thread... However, we have modified affiliate content that is available.

The reasonable solution for us is to allow the hotlinking of static images and now have live images of our webcams for affiliates. The live image URL will default to a static image when that cam is off-line.

If you want to screencap images -- do so at your own peril. Namely, model complaints and DMCA take downs.

NatalieK

sorry, but you do & Barry has said many points that are true to fact.

Webmasters make their money from the models and the cam sites. Continue with that attitude and most models & cam sites wouldn't want your traffic, preferring to get their our own traffic from our social media.

Many models, as I do, promote on social media, your extra 1000 hits a day to a whole cam site is nothing compared to a single model with 150k followers.

I don't use regular camsites on a daily basis as I prefer AdultWork, I have regular clients. I can leave the cam online in private & my regulars come in through the day or evening.

When I do use camsites, the small amount of traffic sent from the affiliate to that camsite, the passing traffic, is minimal compared to regular clients found from our own socializing

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JSWENSON

No, I really don't.

I have never had a cam site turn down my traffic and have been sending it since 2003.

I make more money than most camgirls do on their own shit. Your 150k follower b/s is exactly that, bullshit. For every 1 model with 150k followers there are 150k with less than 20.

Congratulations.

Absolute horse shit. My entire Twitter is nothing but cam girls with egos the size of Dallas but non existent marketing skills. "I'm showing my pussy at 5" isn't exactly a talent.

incredibleworkethic

I understand the frustration. I wish we were able to have promo tools for all cam girls. (screens, small clips, but essentially not giving it ALL away)

NatalieK

I'm not going to argue with you over fact or hear say regarding social media followers & that kind of stuff, especially after your kind congrats, thank you for that. & likewise, congratulations being in business, obviously successful, since 2003

However, if you've been in the business that long, why are you so pessimistic against a cam girl not agreeing to share their photos, they've not signed model release. They could make it without your traffic, but fact is without them your traffic wouldn't sell as their would be no models on the cam sites.

Why not appreciate the models respected choice, providing the cam only, not have her images shown over the net, so be it. I'm slightly protective towards other models, I should have said "a webmaster needs the model & the model needs the quality traffic".

Just to confirm, I allow my affiliates to use any of my content & are welcomed to message me personally for special content. I'm here for business & do want more quality traffic, so i'm not bias here, I think images should be used for sales by webmasters

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Paul Markham

Once it's online no one has control of it. If models haven't learned that yet, they need to be taught.

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marlboroack

No1 has control

BlackAndBlue

GFY needs a "like" button for posts. ;)

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INever

Working together would be the ideal situation.

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Barry-xlovecam

Why do filmakers and video producers think that they control the use their content. Your argument is hypocritical and total garbage.

Copyright is copyright or everybody owns everything. You can't have it both ways -- grow the fuck up.

Andreweb

It would be great if they will have some kind of system to separete the girls that want to be promoted from those who don't want! And those who want extra promotion should offer to the affiliates some promo material like photos and videos!

In the other hand I understand the cam girls! They are human beings like us and not all of them understand how the promotion works! And most of them are scared when they found photos and videos of them over the internet.

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