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Old 10-09-2006, 08:13 AM   #1
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School shooting in Missouri...

So the little 13 years old boy had a backpack full of explosives and shot people with his AK-47... Which begs the question: Who gave that little kid the automatic assault gun? Sighs...
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:55 AM   #2
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http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/15716383.htm

Quote:
No one injured in middle school shooting
Associated Press

JOPLIN, Mo. - A student armed with an AK-47 assault rifle walked into Memorial Middle School on Monday morning and fired a weapon, but did not hit anyone, police said. No injuries were reported.

The student, who was not identified, pointed the gun at two students and Principal Steve Gilbreth and Assistant Superintendent Steve Doerr and asked them, "not to make me do this," said School Superintendent Jim Simpson.

The 13-year-old male student then raised the gun and fired a shot into the ceiling, breaking a water pipe. After firing the shot, he said again, "Please don't make me do this," Simpson said.

"It was a very close call," Simpson said.

Doerr and Gilbreth persuaded the student to leave the building, where he was confronted by two police officers who had their weapons drawn. The student dropped the rifle and was taken into custody, Simpson said.

Joplin police Officer Curt Farmer said officers found a note in the student's backpack indicating that he had placed an explosive in the school, which has about 700 students. Students in the school were moved to nearby Joplin Memorial Hall, where parents were advised they could take them home.

Simpson said the school will be closed for the day while police search the building.

The student was wearing a makeshift mask, and had been planning an attack for a "long time," Simpson said.

Simpson said authorities did not know whether others were involved in the possible attack.

The shooting happened about 7:45 a.m., 10 minutes before school started.

A mother who was dropping her son off at the school didn't let him get out of the car when she saw Gilbreth "waving crazily" as police cars pulled up behind her.

Blake Spivak, former advertising director for The Joplin Globe, sat in her car with her son, Cooper, as Gilbreth walked back into the school flanked on either side by police carrying guns and dressed in flack jackets.

"I couldn't have left if I wanted to. Police were heading into the school with weapons drawn and the principal was pointing to the east side of the school," Spivak told the Globe.

Spivak said after about 10 minutes, a police officer walked by her car and told her she needed to get down or get her car away from the scene.

"I managed to get to the parking lot where there were about 30 kids congregated," she said. "Parents were arriving to check on their kids."

Spivak said Gilbreth later came out and gathered the students together to let them know the student with the gun had been arrested.

"He assured them that their friends were safe and that no one had been hurt," Spivak said. "The principal seemed very much in control and in command of the situation."

Joplin, which has about 40,900 residents, is in southwest Missouri, on the Kansas border about 140 miles south of Kansas City.

Schools across the country have been on alert after three deadly school shootings in three states in the span of a week, and several schools have been locked down or closed entirely during the past two weeks because of threats.

In Pennsylvania Amish country Monday morning, church bells tolled across the region in remembrance of the five young girls who were shot to death at their one-room schoolhouse one week earlier.
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:59 AM   #3
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what is wrong with the usa and all these people targeting our schools?
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:01 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the alchemist View Post
Which begs the question: Who gave that little kid the automatic assault gun? Sighs...
errr...a clerk at wallmart?
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:02 AM   #5
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Another crazy shit on the loose!
Who's to blame here? The media? --- Online wargames? --- or the parents? Which is which?
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:09 AM   #6
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You can only be happy that no one was hurt.
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:11 AM   #7
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what is wrong with the usa and all these people targeting our schools?
This is just a small side effect of having letting anyone have weapons - fortunately no other folks were killed.

Only my - it matters little who has a licence for firearms. They fact that they have them or can possess them quickly is a problem. Everyone *could*, at some time in their lives go thru a looney period - and if they have arms available, hell knows what the result can be.

It's easy to blame the shooters, (sure they are the immediate target for blame), tho there is usually a background story. Some simply have a mental problem, others have been abused for years and seeking revenge, - who knows what the story is behind this young lad who allegedly planned this for some time, - but there sure as hell is a story behind that.

Another factor in this specific case is how the hell did he access an assault weapon in the first instance? Where are the parents?

Bottom line - you get the society your create and there can be good and bad from that. There is a cost for the bad, and the whole society usually have a role in the responsibility for the bad.
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Last edited by Webby; 10-09-2006 at 09:13 AM..
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:19 AM   #8
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what the fuck is wrong with kids today...and their parents for that matter???
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:21 AM   #9
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what is wrong with the usa and all these people targeting our schools?
Republicans are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Anything to push the 'bad news' off the front pages.
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:23 AM   #10
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This is what happens when you stick kids in buildings all day
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:31 AM   #11
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unbelievable.

i wonder if he got picked on and tormented everday.. or if he had pre-existing mental problems..
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:33 AM   #12
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great what kids are up to today
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:42 AM   #13
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:44 AM   #14
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unbelievable.

i wonder if he got picked on and tormented everday.. or if he had pre-existing mental problems..
That's always the first thing I wonder as well, sadly...
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:15 AM   #15
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This is just a small side effect of having letting anyone have weapons - fortunately no other folks were killed.
Quote:
Only my - it matters little who has a licence for firearms. They fact that they have them or can possess them quickly is a problem. Everyone *could*, at some time in their lives go thru a looney period - and if they have arms available, hell knows what the result can be.
Please provide data to back up your statement. There are 70 million guns in the USA, if the owners went looney at some time during their lives, I'd like to see your data on it. There would be alot of dead motherfuckers.

Quote:
It's easy to blame the shooters, (sure they are the immediate target for blame), tho there is usually a background story. Some simply have a mental problem, others have been abused for years and seeking revenge, - who knows what the story is behind this young lad who allegedly planned this for some time, - but there sure as hell is a story behind that.
Let's see why it's easy to blame the shooters... A GUN DOES NOT FIRE ITSELF. I'm tired of reading about abuse here, seeking revenge there, it's a scapegoat for responsiblity, in this case, this boy's parents.


Quote:
Another factor in this specific case is how the hell did he access an assault weapon in the first instance? Where are the parents?
On this issue, we agree.


Quote:
Bottom line - you get the society your create and there can be good and bad from that. There is a cost for the bad, and the whole society usually have a role in the responsibility for the bad.
Stop trying to offset responsiblity. It is not my fault this kid's parents could not control their kid.

A responsible gun owner in the United States, namely Florida does not go off shooting in schools. You have twice as much chance being attacked fatally by an aligator in florida, than being shot by a Concealed Licensed Firearm Owner.
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:20 AM   #16
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Anthony, stand answer: If the parents didn't have a gun to start with, the issue of responsiblity wouldn't even come up.

I don't worry about you, licensed concealed carrier, I worry about the guy who stole your guy, or the kid the borrowed it out of your holster or the thirty seven other people that have gun and don't have a license for them. Redo your stats based on chance of getting shot overall... not just from licensed weapons, and the numbers are completely different.
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:27 AM   #17
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Looks like we'll be seeing a lot more school shootings in the future. Seems to be the trend.
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:31 AM   #18
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Anthony, stand answer: If the parents didn't have a gun to start with, the issue of responsiblity wouldn't even come up.

I don't worry about you, licensed concealed carrier, I worry about the guy who stole your guy, or the kid the borrowed it out of your holster or the thirty seven other people that have gun and don't have a license for them. Redo your stats based on chance of getting shot overall... not just from licensed weapons, and the numbers are completely different.
You make my point for me Alex. What most of non USA people fail to take into consideration that we are a GUN CULTURE NATION. From the very beginning or our country's birth.

Firearms in the USA are NOT going away. This child should be punished as an adult for what he has done. If the firearm was from his parent's collection, they should be punished, stripped of their rights to own a firearm.
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:33 AM   #19
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:34 AM   #20
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the parents should be sent to jail. and the kid should be shot infront of them. enough of this "it was the media" bullshit.
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Old 10-09-2006, 12:10 PM   #21
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Please provide data to back up your statement. There are 70 million guns in the USA, if the owners went looney at some time during their lives, I'd like to see your data on it. There would be alot of dead motherfuckers.
There are approx 11,500 deaths by firearms each year in the US - many times more than all other recorded countries in total. (The data on this is widely recorded.) On child deaths alone, there are approx 3500 for a country that, for example, has a population twice that of Japan. How many child deaths occur in Japan as a result of firearms each year? None.

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Let's see why it's easy to blame the shooters... A GUN DOES NOT FIRE ITSELF. I'm tired of reading about abuse here, seeking revenge there, it's a scapegoat for responsiblity, in this case, this boy's parents.
Sure... keep hearing the arguement that a gun does not fire itself - people fire them. Following that thread, it suggests an element of people, at some time or other don't need to be in possession of firearms - they are out of control.

Agree totally that parents bear a responsibilty - they are often the first in the firing line for condemnation when an incident occurs. However anyone, whether a child or otherwise, can obtain a weapon if they so wish - and for whatever legitimate or otherwise purpose. Bottom line - live with a gun culture and pay the price - tho under these circumstances there can also be more positive results in the fact that a gun is a method of protection. It's almost a vicious circle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Stop trying to offset responsiblity. It is not my fault this kid's parents could not control their kid.

A responsible gun owner in the United States, namely Florida does not go off shooting in schools. You have twice as much chance being attacked fatally by an aligator in florida, than being shot by a Concealed Licensed Firearm Owner.
If it is elected to have a gun culture - a society does pay a price for that. It's a very simple issue. No person on this planet can be assured of being "responsible" in the handling of weapons thru the timescale they may possess a weapon. Florida is no different to anywhere else. There is every chance a school shooting can happen in Florida - just wait a few weeks.

Another indicator of assessibility of guns to children - one survey of around 3000 children across the US resulted in findings that 60ish percent could access a weapon in a short time if they so wished. This suggests there is a core underlying problem??

Overall.. if folks have guns, they may use them - for whatever purpose. In a way it's like purveying the concept of "national security" when, in reality, it will not stop any determined attacker.
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Last edited by Webby; 10-09-2006 at 12:11 PM..
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Old 10-09-2006, 12:20 PM   #22
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without reading much comments, and reading something along the lines of "Whos to blame?" lets review

guns available to anyone now days...
nerdy kids in school getting picked on all the time...
jock kids who think they are cool so they pick....
nerdy kid gets dads gun....
goes in to blow the brains out of the jock kids for making his life a living hell since school started

yup...
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Old 10-09-2006, 12:47 PM   #23
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There are approx 11,500 deaths by firearms each year in the US - many times more than all other recorded countries in total. (The data on this is widely recorded.) On child deaths alone, there are approx 3500 for a country that, for example, has a population twice that of Japan. How many child deaths occur in Japan as a result of firearms each year? None.
I would love to see your source where there are more deaths due to firearms in the US verus the whole world. Please provide it.

You seem to sidetrack again that the rest of the world's countries are not GUN CULTURES. Why do you try to argue a point about the lower suicide rates of the USA (Gun Culture), versus one that does not (Japan)?

But arguments can be structured any way.

The National Safety Council put out this report:

The chances in my lifetime living in the United States of dying...

Assault with Firearm 1 in 222
Passenger in a car 1 in 237

My chances go up surviving an assault with a firearm, as I am armed, but does not changed with riding in a car. Let's ban cars!


Quote:
Sure... keep hearing the arguement that a gun does not fire itself - people fire them. Following that thread, it suggests an element of people, at some time or other don't need to be in possession of firearms - they are out of control.
You are relying on the lowest common denominator that people are idiots. I conceede that there are those that can be looked at such, but your generalization is akin to racism, as it broadly paints that all Americans who legally own firearms can be looked down as an idiot.

It is responsiblity, plain and simple.

Quote:
Agree totally that parents bear a responsibilty - they are often the first in the firing line for condemnation when an incident occurs. However anyone, whether a child or otherwise, can obtain a weapon if they so wish - and for whatever legitimate or otherwise purpose. Bottom line - live with a gun culture and pay the price - tho under these circumstances there can also be more positive results in the fact that a gun is a method of protection. It's almost a vicious circle.
Excellent point, I cannot argue this.

Quote:
If it is elected to have a gun culture - a society does pay a price for that. It's a very simple issue. No person on this planet can be assured of being "responsible" in the handling of weapons thru the timescale they may possess a weapon. Florida is no different to anywhere else. There is every chance a school shooting can happen in Florida - just wait a few weeks.
You almost had a point here about a gun culture...

How do you explain this then? Canada does not have a gun culture, and it is illegal to own certain weapons, and heavily tracked.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html

Florida is different, and if you bothered to look at stats for the state you would know that crime is down, assaults and rapes are down, to coincided funny enough with Concealed Weapons Permits.

Quote:

Another indicator of assessibility of guns to children - one survey of around 3000 children across the US resulted in findings that 60ish percent could access a weapon in a short time if they so wished. This suggests there is a core underlying problem??
Please provide link to data. A survey does not take into account of actual accesablity. My kids can say they can get to a gun rather quickly. If I unlock my safe, and give it to them.


Quote:
Overall.. if folks have guns, they may use them - for whatever purpose. In a way it's like purveying the concept of "national security" when, in reality, it will not stop any determined attacker.
Absolutely. As 9/11/2001 has shown, that if someone wants to kill people, they will find a way.

One of the best debates on Guns Pro/Con I've had on GFY ever. Thank you!
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Old 10-09-2006, 12:55 PM   #24
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I read this and my jaw dropped!! I used to live outside of Joplin in a much smaller town. I always assumed that things like this only happened in large cities, but I guess it can happen anywhere. I still have so many friends there, and I hope everyone is OK and uneffected by this.
Maybe it's just me, but isn't there just way too many of these damn shootings going on recently? Why aren't the schools really reacting to this and changing rules and regulations to make it harder for this to happen! I hope this "trend" ends quickly!
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Old 10-09-2006, 01:11 PM   #25
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thats fucked up

atleast nobody died!
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Old 10-09-2006, 01:27 PM   #26
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Wow thats not to far from me..
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Old 10-09-2006, 01:29 PM   #27
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wow.. an AK47, holy shit.... he wanted to get to the point...
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Old 10-09-2006, 01:32 PM   #28
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what the fuck is wrong with kids today...and their parents for that matter???
It's the porn that does this to them.. didn't you know?
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Old 10-09-2006, 01:52 PM   #29
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Just a quick note, nobody legally sells automatic firearms. Just because it was an AK-47, it was sold semi automatic and would remain so unless it was tampered with. Automatic aka machine guns have been that way for a shit load of time.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:55 PM   #30
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So many wasted young lives these past days..
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:36 PM   #31
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good thing nobody died!
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:38 PM   #32
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probably one of the clowns on this board...
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:44 PM   #33
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I'm just glad I'm not in highschool anymore. If I was in school still. It seems to me I would have a better chance of being killed a school shooting then I would die from: crashing my speedboat, drowning, an auto accident, plane crash or alchohol poisoning.
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:11 PM   #34
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Sheesh.. thats a long reply OK.. will try..

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I would love to see your source where there are more deaths due to firearms in the US verus the whole world. Please provide it.
These stats are basically of what were described as "industrialized countries" (don't include places like the Middle East). But the US takes the lead in firearms deaths overall (even allowing for pro rata populations). The example of Japan is the extreme, (again refers to child deaths), where there were none. Even the rate for adults deaths is low and normally in the 20's/per annum.

There are stats all over the net, - mainly based on CDC, FBI or DOJ data (tho when using comparisons with other countries, allow margin of error since the laws and methods of recording offenses can vary. In fact it's almost impossible to do exact comparisons with other nations on any crime stats)... Here's a quick stat - tho only of handguns in relation to murders..

Quote:
Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

* 373 people in Germany
* 151 people in Canada
* 57 people in Australia
* 19 people in Japan
* 54 people in England and Wales, and
* 11,789 people in the United States
http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm

Of these 19 Japanese deaths - none were children. The UK records only 54 deaths, but that scenario is currently showing an upwards trend.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
You seem to sidetrack again that the rest of the world's countries are not GUN CULTURES. Why do you try to argue a point about the lower suicide rates of the USA (Gun Culture), versus one that does not (Japan)?
I never referred to suicide gun deaths - primarily focussed on child deaths, tho, just realized, US gun sucide deaths appear to be significant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
But arguments can be structured any way.

The National Safety Council put out this report:

The chances in my lifetime living in the United States of dying...

Assault with Firearm 1 in 222
Passenger in a car 1 in 237

My chances go up surviving an assault with a firearm, as I am armed, but does not changed with riding in a car. Let's ban cars!
Sure.. "death-by-car" prob is more than by gun, but the issue is about guns - not cars We could debate the purveying of overdoses of meds can cause more intended/unintended deaths than guns (they prob do!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
You are relying on the lowest common denominator that people are idiots. I conceede that there are those that can be looked at such, but your generalization is akin to racism, as it broadly paints that all Americans who legally own firearms can be looked down as an idiot.

It is responsiblity, plain and simple.
Not really the lowest common denominator - it's the same the world over. Bottom line... irrespective of where people are from, and nothing to do with racism or much else - load them up with guns and they will shoot themselves - either intentionally, by accident or, in the case of school shootings, children can access them and kill others. No need to even label a nation as one that has a "gun culture" - it would most likely be the same anywhere.

A couple of odd stats stand out - eg Switzerland where almost every household has a weapon, but gun deaths (pro rata population) are so low that records can be counted on one or two hands. (This may be attributed to gun training where males apparently serve in a "home defense" org as a matter of course - but who knows)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
How do you explain this then? Canada does not have a gun culture, and it is illegal to own certain weapons, and heavily tracked.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html

Florida is different, and if you bothered to look at stats for the state you would know that crime is down, assaults and rapes are down, to coincided funny enough with Concealed Weapons Permits.
Hang on - I'll get back to this item asap (need to disappear for a short while)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Please provide link to data. A survey does not take into account of actual accesablity. My kids can say they can get to a gun rather quickly. If I unlock my safe, and give it to them.
Sure... if you unlock the safe. Try this stat about the accessability of guns re children which may be a clue...

Quote:
59% of students in grades six through twelve know where to get a gun if they want one, and two thirds of these students say they can acquire a firearm within 24 hours.
- Harvard School of Public Health
http://www.ichv.org/kidsandguns.htm

Gotta go in a min.. but will give another personal example. Was offered firearms training by a US govt officer who in an earlier life was a firearms instructor. The basics were explained - then the background. She was of an opinion that unless an individual undertook a "real" firearms training, any weapon was more likely to be used against the gun owner. This is after having witnessed more than enough SOC's anyone would want to witness in a lifetime. Her opinion may be biased - who knows, (and may well be simply because she saw the "other side" only), but something to think about.

The same govt officer is oddly is support of having weapons, not just to enable her to do a job, but generally (as long as the weapon remains secured, the owner has a training in it's use, and not treated as a macho toy.)

Even with law enforcement - silly stuff happens. One officer managed to shoot himself, not once, but twice in the left portion of his body (DUH??? )

Another quick item... The country where we operate has taken a policy of destroying as many guns as possible (cutting them up) - these guns were either recovered from illegal possession or where folks simply wanted to hand them in for destruction. They are also destroying any unnecessary weapons currently in government use and implementing strict customs controls on all imported weapons. The philosophy is that the less guns in circulation - the less gun deaths. (Not that there was a crisis in gun deaths in the first instance).

Will get back to your Canadian and Florida point shortly
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Last edited by Webby; 10-09-2006 at 09:13 PM..
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