Helio Gracie believed that Jiu Jitsu is all you need in a fight. Modern MMA has shown that is false. Bruce Lee has been called the "Godfather of MMA". Because he espoused training in different fighting ranges and using everything that works and getting rid of what doesn't.
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You can. But the striking is very basic during stand up. Takedowns as well. BJJ strength is in positional dominance on the ground, and submissions from there. The man who built the house that the UFC stands, Royce Gracie was easily defeated by Former Champion Matt Hughes. It wasn't a pretty fight. And highlighted that Jiu Jitsu was not a complete system. More important, showed the importance of Wrestling, and it being the most important skill set to have in MMA.
Matt Hughes VS Royce Gracie UFC 60 - Matt Hughes VS Royce Gracie UFC 60
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Bruce lee.
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dude bruce lee is a joke...I could probably take direct hits from him simply based on his weight...I get hit by guys who are 100lb+ on him for rounds in the ring...dude my jab is probably stronger than his cross
royce was something else...he used grappling in an environment where grappling was new...if royce were to appear today he would probably win only in BJJ tournaments...
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If we could dig up Bruce Lee, my money would be on his corpse to beat you within 3 rounds. If we could arrange for Royce to get in a cage with you, even at this point with deteriorated skills and age, my money would be on him to destroy you in 3 rounds.
The question was pure one dimensional boxer (Mike Tyson) against a well-rounded, smaller and faster martial artist using Bruce Lee as the example. The one dimensional boxer will lose every time. Go watch James Toney vs Couture getting taking down, mounted, pounded out and put to sleep.
The ONLY one dimensional style that can work in a cage or a ring with a referee is Wrestling (Greco Roman Wrestling especially as per Couture or Jon Fitch). It makes for some of the most boring fights but it can dictate where the fight takes place and a superior wrestler can get one take down then lay and pray for the rest of the round. Every other style requires the fighter to be multi-dimensional, and one-dimensional Boxing is ONLY effective against another pure boxer with boxing gloves and a boxing rule-set being enforced.
People love to say how fast Tyson's hands were or how much power he had. Most of that hand speed and power was only possible because he has no fear of being taken down, leg kicked or thrown. The moment he has to start guarding his legs, watching for kicks, avoiding throws and the like his power and hand speed are diminished tremendously. He throws less, throws slower and throws with much less power or he gets planted on his back and eats elbows for the rest of the round.
Good MMA Boxers like Johny Hendricks and Frankie Edgar are ONLY good MMA boxers because they are also terrific wrestlers in their weight class and because they have terrific movement. Tyson was a plodding, straight-forward, stand in the pocket and bang fighter. Lennox Lewis exposed that beautifully. The things that allowed Lewis to destroy Tyson are exactly the same things that would allow an average MMA fighter to destroy Tyson.
If you think Bruce Lee is a weak fighter, we disagree... but if you think a straight-forward power punching one dimensional boxer would dominate MMA... go ask Mitrione, Kimbo Slice, Clint Hester, Junior Dos Santos and dozens of others what happens when they rely too heavily on their boxing skills while facing a more versatile fighter or a dominant wrestler. Even world class K2 Kickboxers like Overeem and Hunt can't compete with much smaller, faster, more versatile fighters and they at least have a kicking arsenal to compliment their punches.
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Bruce Lee wouldn't be on the same level as an Amateur MMA fighter about to go Pro. He was a movie star, not a fighter. So we should really take that out of the picture.If we could dig up Bruce Lee, my money would be on his corpse to beat you within 3 rounds. If we could arrange for Royce to get in a cage with you, even at this point with deteriorated skills and age, my money would be on him to destroy you in 3 rounds.
The question was pure one dimensional boxer (Mike Tyson) against a well-rounded, smaller and faster martial artist using Bruce Lee as the example. The one dimensional boxer will lose every time. Go watch James Toney vs Couture getting taking down, mounted, pounded out and put to sleep.
The ONLY one dimensional style that can work in a cage or a ring with a referee is Wrestling (Greco Roman Wrestling especially as per Couture or Jon Fitch). It makes for some of the most boring fights but it can dictate where the fight takes place and a superior wrestler can get one take down then lay and pray for the rest of the round. Every other style requires the fighter to be multi-dimensional, and one-dimensional Boxing is ONLY effective against another pure boxer with boxing gloves and a boxing rule-set being enforced.
People love to say how fast Tyson's hands were or how much power he had. Most of that hand speed and power was only possible because he has no fear of being taken down, leg kicked or thrown. The moment he has to start guarding his legs, watching for kicks, avoiding throws and the like his power and hand speed are diminished tremendously. He throws less, throws slower and throws with much less power or he gets planted on his back and eats elbows for the rest of the round.
Good MMA Boxers like Johny Hendricks and Frankie Edgar are ONLY good MMA boxers because they are also terrific wrestlers in their weight class and because they have terrific movement. Tyson was a plodding, straight-forward, stand in the pocket and bang fighter. Lennox Lewis exposed that beautifully. The things that allowed Lewis to destroy Tyson are exactly the same things that would allow an average MMA fighter to destroy Tyson.
If you think Bruce Lee is a weak fighter, we disagree... but if you think a straight-forward power punching one dimensional boxer would dominate MMA... go ask Mitrione, Kimbo Slice, Clint Hester, Junior Dos Santos and dozens of others what happens when they rely to heavily on their boxing skills while facing a more versatile fighter or a dominant wrestler. Even world class K2 Kickboxers like Overeem and Hunt can't compete with much smaller, faster, more versatile fighters and they at least have a kicking arsenal to compliment their punches.
Wrestling by itself would not fare well in MMA. As shown in earlier UFC fights, they were submitted, not knowing how to counter.
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OK fine....but what about Jackie Chan?
He would kick everybody's ass. :DMy Affiliate Programs:
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If you believe Bruce Lee would not have been a good fighter, I disagree but we have no way to test that so we can just leave it at that. However, I'm pretty sure you'd agree a guy like Aldo (even though he is much smaller) would still have a chance against a pure boxer... and guys closer in weight like Weidman, St Pierre, Jones, Couture and all the rest would have destroyed Tyson much the same way Couture wrecked Toney in less than one round.
People like to bring up Chuck Liddell as a pure boxer because most of his game was punches, but they fail to take into account how good his wrestling background was and how good his TDD was when he fought. I completely agree one dimensional wrestler is a BAD idea. However, if you could have only one dimension... Wrestling is the one you'd want as it's the only one that gives you any chance of scraping out a win all by itself. Hell it almost made Jon Fitch a champion, even if the crowd was yawning its way through most of his fights. And as a choice, Boxing is about the worst one dimension you could pick unless you are fighting another boxer in a boxing ring with boxing rules and boxing gloves.Comment
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I think Also in a life and death situation would destroy a boxer many times his weight class. And totally agree with on any of the LHW and HW from MMA destroying Tyson. Shit, I'd think GSP would have murdered him, as well as many in that weight class.
Myself as a Parent, and coach to a future MMA fighter, had my son stop BJJ and for the next 8 years wrestle in High School and D2. That's how important wrestling is to MMA, in my eyes and others anyways.
I think one of the most awesome things about Mike Tyson now is his humility.
Mike Tyson Believes Royce Gracie Would Have Defeated Him in 1993 | Bleacher Report
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the first problem is that bruce lee is 100lb lighter than me...
the second problem is physics...mass x acceleration...
the third problem is the limitations of the human body in relation to speed and acceleration...bruce lee is at best 10-20% faster than me...I am however 100% heavier...
the fourth problem is that when something light strikes something that is twice its size but made of the same material, the result is always the same...a kid can run with maximum force towards me, while I am inanimate, and he will always bounce away...always...
royce would beat me with GI no problem and I have no problem with this...I would let royce beat me no-gi out of pure respect for him...the only and only reason I would beat him with no-gi is that I am very big and very strong...if he was my weight he would destroy me like a little toy
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@Anthony
Agreed and Im not bashing on Tyson in any way. In his prime, the only one who had a chance against him was Lennox Lewis (who I believe is the best boxer in modern history). I saw Tyson fight live twice and the only other guy I ever saw with his tenacity in a boxing ring was Marvin Hagler.
In that environment with those rules he was an absolute beast. I sat 3rd row when he fought live at Nassau Coliseum the same night they showed the Hagler Vs Mugabi fight via closed circuit. It's still the best night of fights I have ever seen. Tyson fought a can, but from the 3rd row the entire crowd winced every time he threw a hook to the body. It sounded like gunshots.Comment
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Holy shit, you'd let Royce beat you No gi? Really? What's the last ADCC you win? I'm sure that cockiness is due to you being a No Gi World Champ.the first problem is that bruce lee is 100lb lighter than me...
the second problem is physics...mass x acceleration...
the third problem is the limitations of the human body in relation to speed and acceleration...bruce lee is at best 10-20% faster than me...I am however 100% heavier...
the fourth problem is that when something light strikes something that is twice its size but made of the same material, the result is always the same...a kid can run with maximum force towards me, while I am inanimate, and he will always bounce away...always...
royce would beat me with GI no problem and I have no problem with this...I would let royce beat me no-gi out of pure respect for him...the only and only reason I would beat him with no-gi is that I am very big and very strong...if he was my weight he would destroy me like a little toy
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Weight is less important than technique.
Only if we are comparing the two of you charging at each other chest to chest and trying to determine who will bounce in what direction. As a matter of physics it's the weight of his foot * the acceleration vs the weight and structural integrity of the orbital bone around your eye.... a strike doesn't hit your entire body, it hits one specific part... and that is exactly the kind of thing Lee professed throughout his life. It's a point you may have missed.the second problem is physics...mass x acceleration...
The reason weight matters so much in fights is much more about endurance (a smaller man carrying a larger one exhausts much quicker) and when all other things are EQUAL it matters an awful lot (i.e. one boxer vs another). You take two unequal fighters and weight becomes much less important. If you don't think much of Lee, fine... but I'd be very slow to agree to get in a cage with Aldo or Mighty Mouse no matter how much more you weigh than they do.
Ask Pernell Whitaker about that. He was likely 50% faster than you and got hit only when he decided to trade or was well past his prime. If 20% allows you to hit and not be hit, 20% is all that matters.the third problem is the limitations of the human body in relation to speed and acceleration...bruce lee is at best 10-20% faster than me...I am however 100% heavier...
If you punch a brass doorknob you will break your hand. If you punch the center of that same cheap wood interior door your hand will go right through it. Knowing where and how to hit determines the strength of the material you are hitting. I can kick your knee all day and never feel much pain myself... but if I start kicking your shins Ill be taking plenty of damage. A kid may run maximum force into you, a smaller martial artist would stop a few feet before running into you and pick you apart. Watch the way Randy Couture destroyed James Toney while weighing 25 pounds less than him.the fourth problem is that when something light strikes something that is twice its size but made of the same material, the result is always the same...a kid can run with maximum force towards me, while I am inanimate, and he will always bounce away...always...
Royce would beat you with a Gi, without a Gi, in a house, on a farm, with a mouse, in an airplane, while SCUBA diving or anywhere else Royce wanted to beat you. Skill and technique are infinitely more important than weight. If your skill level isn't at least very close, your weight becomes less and less important.royce would beat me with GI no problem and I have no problem with this...I would let royce beat me no-gi out of pure respect for him...the only and only reason I would beat him with no-gi is that I am very big and very strong...if he was my weight he would destroy me like a little toy
I am 6'4 245... and I'd be much more concerned about a 5'8 160 pound properly trained fighter than I am about a 6'8 320 pound amateur. In a 5 round cage fight a giant amateur may win, but Aldo would likely turn me into an amputee and Royce could kill literally me if he chose to do so. I am not a professional fighter... but I am smart enough to know who not to fight...Comment
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Never understood big guys who think they're chin magically won't shut down when it's tagged because... they're Big.
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Mike Tyson Believes Royce Gracie Would Have Defeated Him in 1993 | Bleacher ReportWell, in '93, I was in prison, so there would not have been a fight, but there is no way I would have won. I had no idea what was going on with that type of fighting and would’ve been taken by surprise. I would have had to train in that particular art of fighting for that to happen. That’s a particular art. You are not going to go in there with your just your hands, you need to have a great ground game as well. You also need a great wrestling game to be successful. You have to have both skills, wrestling and boxing. That’s the truth. - Mike TysonComment
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I have maybe 30lb of pure muscle on royce and no-gi is not as technical as I would like to admit...I have been BJJ/grappling for 10 years and my conditioning is up to par with royce to say the least...
he would demolish me in GI...out of 100 fights in GI I would be lucky to tap him once...
but no-gi is a completely different story...I do not care who you are, or how good you are, If you are 30lb lighter and you are not insanely strong, I can pull your arm out by sheer brute force, and I do not care how good your technique is, because you will not have the chance to use it before addressing my attack...
you can even be a smart smart fighter and go for an attack right away, not giving me the time to set up an attack of my own, but this is of no importance...what matters is that I am 30lb heavier and I want your arm/leg/neck right now...
you will argue that royce is an insanely technical fighter, I will agree, I would never talk stupid shit if this was a GI fight...I would get schooled by royce like a little bitch...but no-gi is such a different story...I am a slippery mother fucker with elastic joints and am brutally powerful...
I am not saying royce has no chance this is silly...I am just saying I can beat him too...his victories in the UFC were a great inspiration to us all but today he is just an average fighter... Report a suspicious cracker: Click HereComment
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Worse, the ones who think size is a universal advantage, not understanding their legs have to bear all that weight and when their knees start getting thwacked it becomes far harder for their legs to handle 250 pounds than it would be to hold up 140 pounds.
Uriah Faber is a great fighter.... This is what his leg looked like after a bout with Aldo:
Ricardo Lamas posts picture of bruised leg thanks to Jose Aldo's kicks | FOX SportsComment
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well its obvious to me that crusifissio would beat all our asses , at the same time.
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No, because You, Anthony and I have a greater total weight than him. It has nothing to do with the fact that there are 3 of us and 1 of him... or the relative skill levels... all that matters is total weight. That's why a giant block of cement was World Champion from 1870 to 1903. Nobody could beat it. It weighed more than the rest of the fighters and everyone who kept hitting it just got frustrated and quit. It's "basic physics"
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here is another vote for Bruce Lee!Comment
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I have been in martial arts since I was 10 I am now 42...a little girl can have perfect technique she still hits like a little girl...a little girl can hit me really really fast it still does not hurt for shit because I get hit 20% slower by guys who are 100% heavier and you do the math...I used to get hit over and over again for rounds and rounds from people who are in my weight category before I would even start to register that I am taking any sort of damage...
you would be surprised at how crap of a fighter he was
chuck norris was 100x the fighter bruce lee was...seriously
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Btw... Here is what we have learned...
Saying Lee is not a great fighter... Plausible
Saying a great boxer would beat a great MMA fighter who weighs much less... Doubtful
Saying a great boxer would beat a great MMA fighter of similar weight ... Insane
Saying anyone on GFY could beat Royce Gracie in a fight .... /threadComment
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you obviously know little about this and I do not blame you for putting too much importance on technique in grappling...rocye beat a bunch of stand up fighters heavier than him and this confuses you...
I am not claiming I can do shit against anybody who is ADCC level and my weight...far from it...I am not even claiming that I can beat royce once with a GI...I am just claiming that you obviously do not have experience with no-gi and do not understand the advantage of being far far stronger than your opponent... Report a suspicious cracker: Click HereComment
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you are completely ignoring the context of my claim to be able to beat a far lighter fighter...royce gracie is maybe 80kg with a chubby belly...he has at best 70kg muscle I am close to 100 and ripped...I can military press royce for reps...man its almost 30kg this is 60+lb weight advantage...gimme a break eh?No, because You, Anthony and I have a greater total weight than him. It has nothing to do with the fact that there are 3 of us and 1 of him... or the relative skill levels... all that matters is total weight. That's why a giant block of cement was World Champion from 1870 to 1903. Nobody could beat it. It weighed more than the rest of the fighters and everyone who kept hitting it just got frustrated and quit. It's "basic physics"
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I'm telling you, you don't know what your are talking about. Since you started with there's no striking in BJJ. You obviously don't know the difference between, Self Defense, Sport Gi/no Gi, or MMA BJJ.
I'm a Purple Belt, better No gi than I am with the Gi. I should be higher belt in the Gi, but I stopped doing Gi early, I didn't go the competition route since I wanted to fight MMA. At my biggest and strongest, juiced to the gills, I could not rip off my opponents arms in No Gi. Your hyperbole sounds like it's coming out a white belt's mouth who's only competition he's had are other white belts.
I'm not coming on here making huge claims. BJJ is easy to spot the poseurs. We self police. If you say you're that good, I'm expecting to see your competitions wins to match Dean Lister's.
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Yep, size makes a difference. Here's Royce against a guy with over 100KG weight advantage.
Royce Gracie vs Akebono - YouTube
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Yes, you could beat Royce... in a military press competition.you are completely ignoring the context of my claim to be able to beat a far lighter fighter...royce gracie is maybe 80kg with a chubby belly...he has at best 70kg muscle I am close to 100 and ripped...I can military press royce for reps...man its almost 30kg this is 60+lb weight advantage...gimme a break eh?
In a fight, he would own you... and you would have an excuse after the fight as to why it didn't really count or what you would do differently next time... until he owned you again and again and again.Comment
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Bruce Lee. I bet Tyson would not even get one punch.Comment
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Again....
Bruce Lee = actor
Mike Tyson = one of the fastest and most devastating heavyweight boxers in the history of boxing.
There is absolutely no grounds whatsoever for even beginning to think Bruce Lee could win any kind of fight. There is a very long chain of proof that Tyson can ..
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You may as well be arguing if Frank Dux or George Dillman can beat Batman.
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Chuck Norris. LOL
Doesn't "heart" and an inner drive to never stop count for anything? I bet it does. If we're talking about a SMART fighter. You are all focusing so much on physics, weight, etc but forgetting about INNER power, fortitude, inner strength, personal power, etc.
Tyson is a bully and, like all bullies, once his ass was properly good and kicked, never threatened anyone ever again. Lee? He faced racism and bigotry at a much harsher time than Tyson did and therefore had more "drive" than the average martial artist (which is probably what killed him, over-training). Was the drive for fame rather than proficiency? Perhaps...but drive is still drive, and Lee had it way above Tyson.
So if we are betting on "the man" I go with Lee. Never underestimate whoever wants it more will win. One good hit to Tyson and the bully would fade like the pussy he is. Lee would fight to the death.
PS: Please read some Bruce Lee biographies. He DID "fight", and win, and kick countless asses. Did he fight "professionally" as in a boxing federation etc? No, but that does not mean he did not "fight" or was not a fighter. Also, remember the Era we are discussing here. Just like with Football and most sports, you cannot compare "eras". The 1950's-early 1970's is nothing like the 1990's-present. The comparison should really be Ali vs. Lee but the height difference alone would be rough.
Hey didn't Lee kick Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's ass? Haha!!My Affiliate Programs:
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Are you saying the Black Man doesn't live a harsh life in the USA? Are you kidding me? No bigotry? I usually like reading some of your posts, but this one is really out there.
Tyson lost because he lost the drive and discipline when Cus died. Before that, he cleaned out the HW Boxing division as the smallest man in the ring, and when you get hit by HW, you go down.
All of you who pick Bruce Lee do so from watching him in movies. Show me one fight, just one. If he was such a great fighter you'd have video proof of it everywhere.
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When Cus died ;)
And Lee briefly trained Jabaar. He didn't fight him..
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Yes, weight classes exist in all fighting styles and promotions for no reason at all..
Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.
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Weight classes exist to make sure that people of comparable skill are properly matched against each other. They do not exist to protect highly skilled fighters from much less skilled amateurs. If you want to argue Lee was not a fighter, we can't test that so we have to leave it at that. Im fine with that. If you want to argue a lighter man can't beat a much heavier man, or that a well rounded fighter can't easily destroy a one dimensional boxer... we can see the results of that test many times and it's painfully obvious what the answer is on that.
Tyson thinks Royce would have won. Couture destroyed Toney. Royce beat Akibono and many other much heavier fighters. The idea that a one dimensional boxer would stand a chance against a skilled MMA fighter (even a much lighter one) is pure 100% nonsense. In fact, that monumental amount of nonsense likely weighs more than the difference between Tyson and Royce or Tyson and Lee...
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it surprises me that you speak of punches in BJJ yet you claim to be a purple belt...how strange...BJJ instructors may teach self defence or MMA but BJJ does not have one single punch...how many punches did you see at the world cup? come on man...
I said direct quote "I can pull your arm out" not rip it off...pulling it out refers to the most common defence in BJJ and grappling= keeping your arms the fuck in, as in close to your body in...I can pull royces, or anybody elses arm who is 60lb muscle lighter than me, out , and apply a lever and force him to tap...I will not use pretty pretty technique, I will "brock lesnar" it
ripping an appendage out was not what I meant
you have a hard time believing that a trained fighter like me can beat pretty much anybody who is 60lb lighter in pure muscle mass, and I understand why...I used to be like you and liked to attach greater value on technique than it really deserved, in relation to pure brawn...royce was my hero...waaay lighter than most his opponents and not even a puncher...defeating your opponent with no punches is truly the pinnacle of martial arts and it was beautiful to watch...but he did it to people completely untrained in any sort of submission wrestling...this is a huge point that I did not know at the time...
after royce appeared I seriously got in to BJJ, and loved the crap out of it...we did just GI for 5-6 months...then we tried nogi for the first time and I started to submit guys easy based on my sheer size and strength...not the purple and browns but the blues and whites...was a disappointment for me to realize that technique did not matter so much in grappling as it did in BJJ with gi...the gi allows for almost perfect control of your opponent and the weight and strength advantage are not so great...no gi is a whole different ball game...its hard to pin down a guy who is slippery as shit and 60lb+ and you have nothing to hold on to...doing an arm bar with a gi is infinitely easier than no gi...
I hate to admit it but I would beat royce
most heavies-super heavies in my club would
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Seriously, before you come up on me about facts on BJJ you need to go back to school. BJJ is comprised of three different types of training. BJJ for the Gi. Bjj for No Gi. Bjj for MMA/Vale Tudo. Noob.
You must be talking from experience. Please show me a video of you doing this to a 6th Degree BJJ Blackbelt. You must have something like that right? Or you are you just talking out your ass. Doing it to a white or blue belt who you outweigh isn't the same thing.I said direct quote "I can pull your arm out" not rip it off...pulling it out refers to the most common defence in BJJ and grappling= keeping your arms the fuck in, as in close to your body in...I can pull royces, or anybody elses arm who is 60lb muscle lighter than me, out , and apply a lever and force him to tap...I will not use pretty pretty technique, I will "brock lesnar" it
ripping an appendage out was not what I meant
Purely Anecdotal statement. You haven't shown one example of you doing it to anyone, let alone Royce Gracie. Anyone can say anything. But there's video proof of Royce tapping out a 400lbs man, can't say the same for you.you have a hard time believing that a trained fighter like me can beat pretty much anybody who is 60lb lighter in pure muscle mass, and I understand why...I used to be like you and liked to attach greater value on technique than it really deserved, in relation to pure brawn...royce was my hero...waaay lighter than most his opponents and not even a puncher...defeating your opponent with no punches is truly the pinnacle of martial arts and it was beautiful to watch...but he did it to people completely untrained in any sort of submission wrestling...this is a huge point that I did not know at the time...
after royce appeared I seriously got in to BJJ, and loved the crap out of it...we did just GI for 5-6 months...then we tried nogi for the first time and I started to submit guys easy based on my sheer size and strength...not the purple and browns but the blues and whites...was a disappointment for me to realize that technique did not matter so much in grappling as it did in BJJ with gi...the gi allows for almost perfect control of your opponent and the weight and strength advantage are not so great...no gi is a whole different ball game...its hard to pin down a guy who is slippery as shit and 60lb+ and you have nothing to hold on to...doing an arm bar with a gi is infinitely easier than no gi...
I hate to admit it but I would beat royce most heavies-super heavies in my club would
You aren't a trained fighter or anything for that matter if you are basing your fighting prowess over WHITE AND BLUE BELTS.
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I find it funny I'm being told I'm small and rely on technique when I'm 6'1" 225lbs. I started BJJ at 270lbs. I've actually had to learn NOT to base my BJJ on size and strength, to work on technique.
Only noobs talk about size and strength being better than technique. Being big is an attribute, like being flexible. But it's not the only thing.
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brock actually dominated him for the whole fight...he put him down in the first 2 seconds and the only reason mir got up was because he turned his head whilst brock was ground and pounding him and the ref called it a strike to the back of the head...it was more mir turning away from the punches like a pussy
frank mir is only 20lb lighter than brock he is a big big guy...and he lost like a bitch in the 2nd fight...he was brocks human punching bag in both fights... Report a suspicious cracker: Click HereComment
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