you want government run health care? - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

TheDoc · 07-20-2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony404

This doesn't tell me what war you were in? I have friends that are active marines neither has seen any combat.One is doing IT in japan,the other does paperwork at a base in NC. Vets do get fucked over and how they still support this president baffles me.

The president is our boss, we support him. He doesn't make these type of calls and he can't do anything about it.

War wise, it was the Gulf, but I saw no action in the 1 week at camp, It was at an MP camp. I think in 95, as they were closing it up. To be in SRT you start off as an MP, and move up the ranks.

I have been to cuba, all over South America, panama, I can't even remotely recall all the places. I really didn't do all that much, but I saw and did enough that it f'ed me up.

Really, right up until I met Kristin, I was still really jacked up. Not that it's all clear now but I have control over it. I'm still very careful about adrenaline rushes as they can.. make me black out, and some news stories still get me.

I hate to see Vets get denied for medical help, forced to pay when they can't work, and being pushed out the military early so they don't have to give up benefits (before 2 years, no help people).. We should all support, donate to vet orgs and if you get a chance stand up fight for one, they did it for you.

StuBradley · 07-20-2007, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

http://www.healthcare-america.org/wo.../horror_uk.cfm

What exactly is your point posting this link. The majority of these people are complaining that they couldnt get experimental treatments for their cancer. HELLO!!!! Ninety percent of the health insurance companies here would reject paying for these treatments as well. Nothing is perfect, but that doesn't mean that our system doesn't need a major overhaul. The simple fact is that people here are dying unnecessarily because they cannot get insurance coverage and postpone seeking medical attention (because of the costs) until it is too late. This is why Americans don't live as long as those in countries with national health care. It has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of care (for those who can afford it) we get here.

GreyWolf · 07-20-2007, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine

Isn't that a good thing, though?

If you could pay extra for better treatment, it would take little time for a high-priced, alternative healthcare circuit to arise. With higher prices, it could afford to offer better pay to doctors, thus draining disproportionately many well-trained and talented doctors from the public system. Basically, the quality of public healthcare would decrease, even though the quality of private healthcare might rise to levels public healthcare could never achieve. In other words, the child of poor parents would get significantly worse healthcare than the child of rich parents would.

That may have been the motivation when lawmakers initiated any related laws.

Can't say for Canada specifically, but the EU does not have any limitations on paying docs - you can pay whoever you like

As far as conflict in healthcare services is concerned - that is not a big deal and anyone who elects to use private healthcare may get an extra bunch of flowers in the room, but it's the same docs, the same heart value, the same drugs etc and same standard of care provided under the universal healthcare system.

However - There is a business in providing healthcare insurance cover to anyone this may appeal to and some corps have group policies for their employees etc and on which they get tax benefits. Depending - some of these policies can be fairly expensive - especially when the net benefit is the cost of a floral arrangement

Bottom line - there is little conflict between the UHC and private treatment.

notabook · 07-20-2007, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine

The Dutch system would work for you, then. Insurance agencies are required to have a "basic" plan (which covers all normal medical care, but excludes things like acupuncture) to which they have to admit everyone who applies, regardless of existing medical conditions, etc. People with low incomes receive money from the government to compensate them for the costs, but getting insurance is mandatory.

The few homeless people who might not get insurance receive medical care nonetheless, and their costs are written off, but nobody apart from them goes without insurance.

Meanwhile, the government pays for some of the most expensive parts of treatment (eg multi-month stays in revalidation centers), so health insurance agencies can insure people without running too much risk.

The best part: private insurance agencies actually compete to provide us with cheap health insurance that will admit everyone.

The dutch system sounds fucking awesome! The part I bolded really speaks why healthcare in America suffers greatly: there is no competition here. In nearly every businesses you see the prices drop... shit, look how much HD DVD players have dropped in a year (from 1k down to under $500). Competition breeds lower prices; you don't ever see this happening in the medical industry. The prices never seem to go down but only up. If that's not price-fixing I don't know what is.

A government-ran or at least a government-sponsored healthcare system would force the private industry to compete directly with them, driving the costs of healthcare down while simultaneously increasing the quality of said healthcare. It's a win-win situation for EVERYONE, tax payers included. Healthcare in the US would finally become preventive and improving our population's health for decades to come.

EonBlue · 07-20-2007, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dig420

because at a half second's glance it's put together by the Miami Castro hating cuban community.

Why is it you idiot conservatives always go for the shakiest, most unreliable sources and believe them to the bitter end over citizen watchdog organizations who have no other motivation than the public good?

Are you stupid?

Oh, you're one of those types. Nevermind then.

EonBlue · 07-20-2007, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine

Isn't that a good thing, though?

If you could pay extra for better treatment, it would take little time for a high-priced, alternative healthcare circuit to arise. With higher prices, it could afford to offer better pay to doctors, thus draining disproportionately many well-trained and talented doctors from the public system. Basically, the quality of public healthcare would decrease, even though the quality of private healthcare might rise to levels public healthcare could never achieve. In other words, the child of poor parents would get significantly worse healthcare than the child of rich parents would.

There are many European countries with parallel public and private systems that provide good healthcare to everyone. In most cases all doctors are required to provide a set amount of time to the public system but then are still free to run their private systems on the side for those who are willing to pay. It ends up being a win-win for everyone.

We have huge wait times for many diagnostic and surgical procedures here in Canada because the government won't let private operations provide services to meet the excess demand. Many of our doctors go to the US so we suffer doctor shortages. Most of our hospitals are controlled by unions to the point where almost all new money put into the healthcare system goes to cover negotiated wage increases and hardly any goes toward new equipment, more nurses or more doctors.

I know the American system has problems, but don't look to Canada as an example of how to make it better. We rank just as low on global healthcare as the US. There are better models in the world to follow and they all include parallel public/private systems.

tony286 · 07-20-2007, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

The president is our boss, we support him. He doesn't make these type of calls and he can't do anything about it.

War wise, it was the Gulf, but I saw no action in the 1 week at camp, It was at an MP camp. I think in 95, as they were closing it up. To be in SRT you start off as an MP, and move up the ranks.

I have been to cuba, all over South America, panama, I can't even remotely recall all the places. I really didn't do all that much, but I saw and did enough that it f'ed me up.

Really, right up until I met Kristin, I was still really jacked up. Not that it's all clear now but I have control over it. I'm still very careful about adrenaline rushes as they can.. make me black out, and some news stories still get me.

I hate to see Vets get denied for medical help, forced to pay when they can't work, and being pushed out the military early so they don't have to give up benefits (before 2 years, no help people).. We should all support, donate to vet orgs and if you get a chance stand up fight for one, they did it for you.

Thank you for serving.

pocketkangaroo · 07-20-2007, 08:24 PM

So a website that pretends to be neutral but really is run by the Pharm companies is a trusted source? Why not post a website that tells us that burning oil is good for the world and is funded by Exxon?

tony286 · 07-20-2007, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EonBlue

There are many European countries with parallel public and private systems that provide good healthcare to everyone. In most cases all doctors are required to provide a set amount of time to the public system but then are still free to run their private systems on the side for those who are willing to pay. It ends up being a win-win for everyone.

We have huge wait times for many diagnostic and surgical procedures here in Canada because the government won't let private operations provide services to meet the excess demand. Many of our doctors go to the US so we suffer doctor shortages. Most of our hospitals are controlled by unions to the point where almost all new money put into the healthcare system goes to cover negotiated wage increases and hardly any goes toward new equipment, more nurses or more doctors.

I know the American system has problems, but don't look to Canada as an example of how to make it better. We rank just as low on global healthcare as the US. There are better models in the world to follow and they all include parallel public/private systems.

Im in the usa ,I pay for my health insurance. My wife needed to see a specialist,it was Feb she didnt see the actual doctor till August. My father has just been diagnosed with cancer. They said it was fast growing and then in the next breath said he wouldnt be able to see one specialist for at least 2 weeks and the other it could be October. If my mother didnt have high powered connections in the medical field he would be waiting instead of being taken care of.
This is all with paid insurance, that keeps getting more expensive every year.

tony286 · 07-20-2007, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketkangaroo

So a website that pretends to be neutral but really is run by the Pharm companies is a trusted source? Why not post a website that tells us that burning oil is good for the world and is funded by Exxon?

Thats almost every article or group that says global warming is a scam.

pocketkangaroo · 07-20-2007, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

I hate to see Vets get denied for medical help, forced to pay when they can't work, and being pushed out the military early so they don't have to give up benefits (before 2 years, no help people).. We should all support, donate to vet orgs and if you get a chance stand up fight for one, they did it for you.

The way this country treats our vets is an absolute disgrace. Especially from an administration that sends kids off to war and throws them in rat infested rooms when they return wounded. I see tons of Vietnam Vets in Chicago begging for change on the street. We are the wealthiest country in the world and treat those who fought for us with utter disrespect. It's a shame.

jakethedog · 07-20-2007, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Canadian corporations can provide extended health care services, it's not illegal.

extended health care covers a % of things like massage therapy for injury and lowers your prescription costs but that's about it .. there is no "jumping the Que" so to speak .. and not really a need .. emergency is just that emergency .... if your waiting for a liver well your waiting in line for a liver ..when one comes in your on the list .... an old woman's hip replacement because it just wore out and she is getting around just fine in her scooter is probably gonna be a little after the kid who had his leg cut off as far as wait time ..
BUT if you want a new set of tits .. you can have that next week ..but that is private practice..

TheDoc · 07-20-2007, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony404

Thank you for serving.

Thank you.. Rockhard is a fellow Marine too, many ex-military here on GFY.

Kristin has more reasons to gripe about health care, more than anyone I know at least. We 'had' to pay for our kids birth, even though we had insurance. Her meds would cost around $500+ a month or she could die. If she doesn't work for larger companies she can make the entire companies insurance rates double, even triple depending on the company size. She can't get personal insurance, they deny her.

The entire medical system, health care, ect.. is f'ed up and I don't think this country is going to unscrew it for at least 20 years.

TheDoc · 07-20-2007, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakethedog

extended health care covers a % of things like massage therapy for injury and lowers your prescription costs but that's about it .. there is no "jumping the Que" so to speak .. and not really a need .. emergency is just that emergency .... if your waiting for a liver well your waiting in line for a liver ..when one comes in your on the list .... an old woman's hip replacement because it just wore out and she is getting around just fine in her scooter is probably gonna be a little after the kid who had his leg cut off as far as wait time ..
BUT if you want a new set of tits .. you can have that next week ..but that is private practice..

Aye, I oddly know how it works in Canada, I lived in Edmonton for two years. But you can do one thing, that the 'extra health care' provides, you can opt to come to the United States, where you don't wait if you have insurance, sad.

TheDoc · 07-20-2007, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketkangaroo

The way this country treats our vets is an absolute disgrace.

You are correct, war time or not, sitting at a base your entire 4 years pushing paper, you still served and should still be treated with respect by the Gov.

The Army commercials should quit saying earn $50,000 for college and say,get $50,000 for health care after we bone you over for serving us.

IllTestYourGirls · 07-20-2007, 08:44 PM

here is an idea NO INSURANCE! Then everyone could afford health care. The billions a year hospitals make off medicare and what not will be gone and they will be forced like very other business to charge what their average customer can afford

mikesouth · 07-20-2007, 08:46 PM

I think where we need to look for reform is at the insurance companies, who we all know, do everything possible to keep from paying a claim, just look at the discrepancy in pricing. Take me for example. I'm currently covered by a corporate policy that was obtained for me by a family member through her employer. The policy costs 210.00 per month and includes vision care and dental. When I called the same company asking for the same exact coverage my cost would have been 860.00 per month with no vision or dental care. Why is there such a huge discrepancy in pricing? And don't give me that "group policy" bullshit why can't Americans be a group?

Thats where our government probably needs to look if we want to solve the healthcare crisis. I know I for one can think of precious few things that the government does well, why would I want to entrust them with the most important thing to me, my health?

I recently had major surgery and when I think about that and think that about our public school system, our postal service, the social security administration and the "war on drugs" it makes me cringe to think what kind of neurosurgeon I might have gotten. When I needed complicated neurosurgery I got the best of the best in Atlanta.

tony286 · 07-20-2007, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikesouth

I think where we need to look for reform is at the insurance companies, who we all know, do everything possible to keep from paying a claim, just look at the discrepancy in pricing. Take me for example. I'm currently covered by a corporate policy that was obtained for me by a family member through her employer. The policy costs 210.00 per month and includes vision care and dental. When I called the same company asking for the same exact coverage my cost would have been 860.00 per month with no vision or dental care. Why is there such a huge discrepancy in pricing? And don't give me that "group policy" bullshit why can't Americans be a group?

Thats where our government probably needs to look if we want to solve the healthcare crisis. I know I for one can think of precious few things that the government does well, why would I want to entrust them with the most important thing to me, my health?

I recently had major surgery and when I think about that and think that about our public school system, our postal service, the social security administration and the "war on drugs" it makes me cringe to think what kind of neurosurgeon I might have gotten. When I needed complicated neurosurgery I got the best of the best in Atlanta.

Some of the greatest surgeons in the world are in countries with socialized medicine.As long as insurance companies main motive is profit, the system cant work because the main focus isnt the patient its the big bonus.United health cares chairmen was given a 500 million dollar bonus.

IllTestYourGirls · 07-20-2007, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony404

Some of the greatest surgeons in the world are in countries with socialized medicine.As long as insurance companies main motive is profit, the system cant work because the main focus isnt the patient its the big bonus.United health cares chairmen was given a 500 million dollar bonus.

And for what? Was it for scaring the hell everyone out of their money? It seems like in one breath they say we have the best health care ever and in the next breath everyone is coming down with and dying of everything

DaddyHalbucks · 07-20-2007, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notabook

I'd much rather have government-ran healthcare than the shit we have now. Ideally I would like it not to be government-ran but paid for by the government through taxes and create a new entity to run it.

Be careful for what you wish for.

Set aside plenty of time to wait your turn to see the doctor.

Oh, and one more thing, get ready for much higher taxes.

TheDoc · 07-20-2007, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

get ready for much higher taxes.

I'm all up for higher taxes to pay for this, as long as I can opt out and choose not to use their services. I don't want to pay for all the slime that already sucks the life out of this country, just another reason why people wouldn't have to work.

And it's not the immigrants people..

sacX · 07-20-2007, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

Be careful for what you wish for.

Set aside plenty of time to wait your turn to see the doctor.

Oh, and one more thing, get ready for much higher taxes.

1. Many of these systems you can opt-out and have private insurance and have 0 waiti time.

2. These countries, eg. UK, Australia, New Zealand get better value for money than the US because they have a public system COMPETING with a private system, and their tax is no higher than the US.

dig420 · 07-20-2007, 10:17 PM

and on a related note, brought to you by these wonderful small government conservatives:

GOODBYE FIFTH AMENDMENT!!!! Nice to know ya!

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...70717-3.html?1

Private property? Not anymore!

GreyWolf · 07-20-2007, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

Oh, and one more thing, get ready for much higher taxes.

Do you think all other UHC countries have higher taxes than the US? Nope. there are variations but little difference in overall taxation. Where there are noticeable differences, the govt is given back more direct to taxpayers in the form of other services.

When non-industrialized countries can provide full healthcare cover ranking that of the US for under $300/year/family including dentistry and maternity services - there may be something that does not add up??

GreyWolf · 07-20-2007, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacX

2. These countries, eg. UK, Australia, New Zealand get better value for money than the US because they have a public system COMPETING with a private system, and their tax is no higher than the US.

Correct sacX

notabook · 07-20-2007, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

Be careful for what you wish for.

Set aside plenty of time to wait your turn to see the doctor.

Oh, and one more thing, get ready for much higher taxes.

That's funny. My aunt started to black out and had severe headaches and went to her doc. She has pretty good insurance through her company -- the doc was concerned about her blackouts and he referred her to a specialist where she would get a CT scan. The wait time for this?

Six weeks.

Six weeks waiting on a CT scan. Six fucking weeks, a month in a half of waiting. Keep in mind this is AMERICA. She could have (but thankfully didn't) had any number of deadly things wrong with her yet she had to wait six weeks to find out. If the wait times here are any indication, switching over to a government-sponsored or government-ran healthcare system doesn't seem bad at all.

As for the taxes... We currently pay twice as much as any other industrialized nation on healthcare and if life/death expectancies are any indicator for level of your countries health, most 1st world nations are doing a better job than we are at keeping their citizens alive. Furthermore, with insurance for all, medicine in this country would become preventative rather than just for treatment as it is currently in this country.

Porn Farmer · 08-16-2007, 06:59 AM

Surely universal healthcare would be better than the clusterfuck you Americans call a health'care' system:

Quote:

Man kisses ailing wife, hurls her from balcony

KANSAS CITY, Missouri (AP) -- A man threw his seriously ill wife four stories to her death because he could no longer afford to pay for her medical care, prosecutors said in charging him with second-degree murder.

According to court documents filed Wednesday in Jackson County Circuit Court, Stanley Reimer walked his wife to the balcony of their apartment and kissed her before throwing her over.

The body of Criste Reimer, 47, was found Tuesday night outside the apartment building, near the upscale Country Club Plaza shopping district.

Stanley Reimer, 51, was charged Wednesday. He remained jailed on $250,000 bond and was scheduled to be arraigned Thursday.

In the probable cause statement filed with the charges, police said Reimer was desperate because he could not pay the bills for his wife's treatment for neurological problems and uterine cancer.

Investigators said that Reimer was in the apartment when they arrived. He told them, "She didn't jump," but did not elaborate, they said.

Criste Reimer's caregiver told police she could barely walk and would not have been able to climb over the railing of the balcony, according to the probable cause statement.

Reimer's alleged motive emerged after several more hours of questioning, police said.

According to Jackson County Probate Court records, Criste Reimer had been in ill health for several years. Her weight had fallen to 75 pounds and she was partly blind.

According to the court records, she had no health insurance to pay for medical bills that ranged from $700 to $800 per week.

The Probate Court documents were filed in April, when Stanley Reimer petitioned to be allowed to sell personal property his wife owned in Wheeler County, Texas, for $20,000.

The documents listed her assets at approximately $6,700, with monthly income of $725 from oil royalties and Supplemental Security Income.

It was not immediately known if Stanley Reimer had an attorney.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/16/wif....ap/index.html

GAMEFINEST · 08-16-2007, 07:21 AM

Healthcare is expensive...unless you have a good job ...

jalami · 08-16-2007, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

Um just because government would PAY for heathcare doesn't mean it has to RUN it.

Exactly. Canada has a privately-run health care system, and the provincial governments run the insurance provider for the basic necessities. You also need to get private insurance for supplemental medical insurance (including prescription drugs which are much cheaper in Canada already) and dental.

07-20-2007, 08:44 PM	#66
IllTestYourGirls Ah My Balls Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Under the gold leaf ICQ 388-454-421 Posts: 14,311	here is an idea NO INSURANCE! Then everyone could afford health care. The billions a year hospitals make off medicare and what not will be gone and they will be forced like very other business to charge what their average customer can afford __________________

07-20-2007, 08:46 PM	#67
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,334	I think where we need to look for reform is at the insurance companies, who we all know, do everything possible to keep from paying a claim, just look at the discrepancy in pricing. Take me for example. I'm currently covered by a corporate policy that was obtained for me by a family member through her employer. The policy costs 210.00 per month and includes vision care and dental. When I called the same company asking for the same exact coverage my cost would have been 860.00 per month with no vision or dental care. Why is there such a huge discrepancy in pricing? And don't give me that "group policy" bullshit why can't Americans be a group? Thats where our government probably needs to look if we want to solve the healthcare crisis. I know I for one can think of precious few things that the government does well, why would I want to entrust them with the most important thing to me, my health? I recently had major surgery and when I think about that and think that about our public school system, our postal service, the social security administration and the "war on drugs" it makes me cringe to think what kind of neurosurgeon I might have gotten. When I needed complicated neurosurgery I got the best of the best in Atlanta. __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

08-16-2007, 07:21 AM	#78
GAMEFINEST Make STACK$ Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: sexy time Posts: 14,449	Healthcare is expensive...unless you have a good job ... __________________ Compound interest.

07-20-2007, 08:24 PM	#58
pocketkangaroo Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 8,452	So a website that pretends to be neutral but really is run by the Pharm companies is a trusted source? Why not post a website that tells us that burning oil is good for the world and is funded by Exxon?

07-20-2007, 10:17 PM	#73
dig420 Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 9,240	and on a related note, brought to you by these wonderful small government conservatives: GOODBYE FIFTH AMENDMENT!!!! Nice to know ya! http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...70717-3.html?1 Private property? Not anymore!