The issue is not Michael Moore, his film or his abilities. The question was does government health care work in countries that have it. The pulse is it is not perfect but yes it does work.

The system in the US is broken, badly broken and whether it is a government program (feared by the healthcare insurance industry and the AMA) or a private system that assures healthcare to all, something needs to be fixed. If you consider government inefficient and corrupt what do you consider businesses that care more for profits than their customers, ie: health insurance providers?

healthcare in australia is ok. if people say it is 'broken' here then they dont know what they are talking about.

- monday - didnt feel well
- tuesday - felt worse
- wednesday - noticed odd bruises on my arms
- thursday - went to local doctor, he ordered blood work
- thursday afternoon - results of blood work are very bad
- thursday evening - admitted to Vancouver General Hospital Leukemia section, private room...consult with Hematologists and and oncologist
- Friday noon - Surgeons insert hickman line in my chest
- Saturday morning - chemotherapy starts

thanks canada :)

I think unversal healthcare is a great idea.. but in practice I truly have quite a few worries.

For example..

I was on a business trip in Miami, and came down with a horribly painful middle ear infection. Anyone who's had one of these knows the pain can be unbelievable - I know it was a shock to me!

I have insurance.

So I call around there, to see what wait times are at "urgent care" type clinics. I basically just needed a bottle of freaking penicillin.

Totally. Fucked. Beyond. Belief.

I actually had people laugh at me on the phone when I asked if I could be seen within a few hours. They said if I came in that day, I might be seen the next if I stayed all night. Same situation at the ER's (which I really would have hated clogging up with a simple ear infection!) - hugely long waits for non-critical stuff.

The reason? Tons of people without insurance. Largely immigrant populations, or whathaveyou. I asked around, and it seems this is a condition pretty common in all major US cities. Since I'm not from such a climate, I really had no idea. Where I'm from, you could walk into the ER needing 2 stitches and walk out an hour later (been there, done that) completely done. Or call 20 minutes before you wanted to see a doctor for a possible strep infection and be seen immediately. This is not the case there. The latter was even without insurance, at a cost of less than $150 prescription included!

So, I elected to simply wait until I flew home 2 days later and saw a new doctor I never saw before within 2 hours of getting off the plane.

If "free" healthcare is anything like how the Miami system is run I want absolutely no fucking part of it. It might work if you have a life threatening condition that requires urgent care - but what about shit that makes me totally useless to make a living? I might be *able* to live through the pain, but I can guarantee you I was not providing for my family during that time at the level I should have been.

Being able to pay for quality and prompt care is something I think many people are very wary of giving up. Right now the US system sucks in that the poor without insurance, and poor with not top-of-the-line insurance plans get totally screwed. However, those that can afford the care get it quite well.

How can a rare resource (health care) be provided "equally" to all without the tragedy of the commons happening to it? I work with a couple folks from Canada, and they say our system is far superior for "minor" issues in that they can get fixed up ASAP with no delay, but they far prefer the Canadian system for large (expensive) problems. Having the option of saying "You know, I could suffer through this infection for 2 weeks and be largely useless - or go see a doctor for $200" is a pretty powerful choice. It's not so much of a choice when you are on a 1 week waiting list to see the doctor for a condition that may be gone by then.

Something needs to get fixed, but holy crap it's a tough problem to solve if you ask me.

i cant believe the misconceptions amercians have about universal health care...is it about the poor getting the same treatment as the rich? i think that must bother a lot of you...

Most democrats, it does bother. That's why most democrats are pro health care for all - they are empathetic and can actually see the economic benefits of having a national healthcare system. A healthier country means a more productive country; a healthier country means a richer country ? both economically as well as morally. Sure, you won?t see the economic benefit overnight. It will take a few decades for preventive medication to take effect but after a few decades of a universal healthcare system, the USA would benefit greatly.

A lot of them don't realize the wait times currently seen in the ER are longer because they don't have universal care. They blame it on the uninsured and illegals flooding the ER. Which is true but the reason behind why they flood the ER escapes them. It's the only place they can go as a last measure for free care. If you had universal care where all were covered most of these people would seek out the family doctors and clinics for their minor ailments instead of flooding the ER and staff with things that are hardly emergencies. Not to mention when you nip things in the bud early in preventive health care instead of sick care, you also decrease the % of people in the ER for issues that became serious due to neglecting them at earlier stages due to having no coverage.

You lived in Bellingham, so you know the propaganda that gets tossed about and the lobbiests that ensure that myths get spewed as fact about health care in the US. When it gets driven at you over and over again from the top on down its pretty easy to take it as fact.

Jeezz - do you ever shut and and stop talking trash???

You are the judge of Moore's abiltity from a "technical stand point"?? What qualifications do you have in the technical aspect of film making?? None.

The sound is called a sound track - Get a hearing aid...

I don't think I read a single comment from a person not living in the US that was negative about universal healthcare. US citizens are programmed to fear their government and it's incompetence. Still we pay them 15.3% of our wages for retirement and post retirement healthcare. We trust them with nuclear weapons and we think they are incompetent to handle administering health care. Well if that is correct we should find a new government because this one is not working too well.

The fear of all things socialized is a selective tool used to raise fears in Americans. Many things are already socialized in the US and I doubt you would want a private military (although this administration is close with it's very well paid contractors in Iraq) etc.

American believe the propaganda because they have been lied to for so long about the superiority of the US life that they cannot question that other countries might have better solutions to the same problems. From my first trip out of the USA I realized the US was NOT the perfect nation state taught in the schools.

Privatize the Pentagon then .... :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

I'm content paying my 'extortionate' 40% and getting my health care for free, sure i'd much rather be paying 28% but at the end of the day. I've had my appendix removed, wisdom teeth out, frequent trips to the gum clinic *cough*, general GP checkups all for 'free'

Yes there are things that could be better, it's quite hard to find an nhs dentist but the prices are reasonable if you can find one, but overall i'm pleased with the way the nhs is run.

We don't have a free market system right now. Hospitals are required to treat anyone with a life threatening illness, they are required to meet a quota of uninsured people, and "free" clinics are prevelant in poorer areas.

The Pharm companies have lobbied for laws that don't allow us to have a choice on our medicine, by making sure we can't buy drugs overseas. They sell drugs to us for $10 a pill while they sell the same pills to other countries for pennies. Since we can't buy from those other countries, they have a government made monopoly on the product. Explain to me where the free market comes in to play there? Or when they push laws in that make it near impossible for generic manufacturers to compete and force them to buy directly from the main manufacturer.

We can also take a look at Medicare plans that are voted in by the government. The ones that YOUR REPUBLICANS decided to put in place that doesn't allow the government to negotiate prices at all. So much for your party being the ones for capitalism, eh?

Our current healthcare system is not run on the free market system. It is run by the government. The big difference between national healthcare and our current system is that the ones getting the benefits are the insurance companies and Pharm companies that destroy the free market for an extra buck.

We have socialized medicine as it is. Your talking points just care to take the whole national healthcare = communist theory.

Just want to point out many Americans already have a tax burden above 40% when you consider federal, state, local, fica, and sales taxes.

I know I do. And I'm certainly not at the top of the tax scale either.

Many friends are absolutely floored when I sit down with them and actually show them how much in taxes they are paying. It really is ridiculous.

My largest I guess concerns with public healthcare are twofold.

1. It will result in larger government, and almost assuredly used as an excuse to raise taxes. You can disagree and say that the current system is already "run by the government" - however, no matter what it WILL be used as an excuse to increase the tax burden on Americans whether needed or not.

2. Less choice. Sure, there probably isn't a whole lot of choice in the system as it stands today. However, if you truly can afford it - you can get any sort of care you want immediately. That will not be an option in a public system. There needs to be a way to implement a public system that does not LOWER standards for anyone, while raising the standards for the disadvantaged.

If those two concerns could be met, then I'd be happy with a public health system. If I can walk to the doctor to get a strep check, and not have to wait 2 weeks for it (where I may as well just tough it out at that point), I'm pretty happy and it's an improvement for me. However, I've actually talked with Canadians and the like. There ARE reasons they come here for some health care. In general, it seems that they are extremely happy with their system for "large" things like say heart attacks, major injuries, etc. But pretty turned off from it by smaller less urgent things where queues can measure in months.

If your government uses that as an excuse kick them out for people who don't. You have 24 other countries in the western industralized world using universal health care there for you have 24 comparables on what the administrative costs should be as well as total cost per person for each year average. Also you have the benchmark of the total % of GNP spent on health care. If they try and bs you into anything about more government, more taxes etc then you need to present the facts, get them to try and justify their actions and if unhappy, kick their asses out for people who will do it right.

The reality is you spend twice the tax dollars per person per year on health care already then Canada, UK and Britain. Universal care cuts out the bs middlemen and lowers administration costs immensily. If anything your tax dollars should be lowered since your cost per person for health care WILL drop over the next 5-10 years as preventive medicine care and administration costs kick in. If they don't lower your taxes, demand to know where that extra money is being funneled in the government. Who is spending it and why. Maybe its for good things maybe its not and its time to kick their asses out. Thats what democracy is all about. THE PEOPLE should be running the show and you get a chance to show your power every 2 years for the senate and house and every 4 years for the president. Use it well.

With universal you have tons of care and options. I can choose my doctor, my hospital, my specialist. No question for an elective thing such as a knee or shoulder injury you will wait longer to see the specialist and get it fixed than in the US if your HMO is the very best and green lights the procedure in a timely fashion. That is an IF though. And of course if you are rich enough to pay cash for it, then of course it will be faster than in Canada for instance but in Britain where its a universal with the option for private it would be the same.

And your case for strep throat is just crazy. If I feel I have strep I book an appointment with my family doctor in the morning. Go to the appointment and about 30-60 min later walk out with my prescription. If your doctor doesn't have an appointment left for that day and your desperate then just use the walk in clinics and do the waiting list to get in. Works well other than its not your family doctor. There is no reason to not be seen by someone about it within a day let alone your "two weeks" disaster scenario for strep throat. Two weeks maybe to see a specialist for a torn knee but thats after you saw the family or emergency doctor already to determine it wasn't life threating like a severed artery etc.

Jut to clear up some misconceptions. And I have lived under both the Canadian and US systems.

Only exception I can think of is if you lived in the middle of nowhere... if you have a problem and get to a hospital you will be treated. Regardless of whether you even have a health care card, they'll treat first and ask question later.

:1orglaugh You think US health system sucks? Where I'm from you have to try pose as a VIP or a high-ranking military/police officer to avoid getting chopped off like a turkey on Thanksgiving. Doctors actually forget their utensils in their patients. But if you have the money or know the people, you're getting the best there is. Damn corruption.

Which country is that? And also doctors forgetting utensils in their patients happens quite often in the US as well.