New CIA director Hayden plans massive expansion of spying on Americans

[The Duck]

Doug Thompson / Capitol Hill Blue | June 1st 2006

Now that he is officially sworn in as the new head of the Central Intelligence Agency, Gen. Michael Hayden plans to build a vast domestic spying network that will pry into the lives of most Americans around the clock.

President George W. Bush told Hayden to "take whatever steps necessary" to monitor Americans 24/7 by listening in on their phone calls, bugging their homes and offices, probing their private lives, snooping into their financial records and watching their travel habits.

Can I prove this in a court of law? No. Do I know it is happening? Yes, without a doubt. Enough sources within the CIA, FBI, NSA and Pentagon have come forward in recent days to warn about Hayden's plans for an expanded, consolidated spy network aimed at Americans, not terrorists, and violating numerous laws that prohibit such activities against citizens of this country.

"What Hayden plans to do is not only illegal, it is immoral," says a longtime CIA operative who may retire early rather than participate in what he sees as an illegal extension of the spy agency's activities.

Hayden, who oversaw the National Security Agency's questionable monitoring of phone calls and emails of Americas, plans to consolidate much of the country's domestic spying into a new desk at the CIA, calling it a "domestic terrorism prevention" operation.

The desk will oversee not only NSA's increased monitoring of electronic communications by Americans but also the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency's "terrorist information awareness" program that monitors travel and financial activities by Americans by gathering real-time data from banks, airlines, travel agencies and credit card companies.

The CIA operation will also coordinate with the Pentagon's domestic spying program that monitors activities of anti-war groups, organizations critical of the Bush administrations and others tagged as enemies of the state.

FBI agents will step up monitoring of journalists to identify leaks of stories embarrassing to the government. The bureau is already monitoring phone calls and emails by reporters on a routine basis and has increased surveillance of writers for major news organizations and monitoring of travel and financial records using the DARPA computers.

"This is not 'total information awareness' but 'total information control' aimed at watching Americans fulltime and ignoring the protections that are supposed to be guaranteed by the Constitution," says an FBI agent familiar with the programs. "I didn't sign on for this and I'm getting the hell out."

In fact, resignations at major U.S. spy agencies are at an all-time high. Exact numbers are classified but sources say field agents, data analysts and others are leaving in droves rather than join the frenzy to spy on Americans.

Hayden sailed through the Senate confirmation process defending his domestic spying program at NSA, claiming it was legal. Privacy experts and Constitutional law professors say otherwise but the Senate rubber-stamped Bush's choice anyway, choosing to ignore the threats to freedom.

Hayden will have little problem concealing the operation from the public and Congress. Many of the CIA's programs are classified and the agency has, in the past, concealed programs even from the intelligence committees in both the House and Senate. The DARPA project and the Pentagon domestic spying programs are "black bag" operations that do not require Congressional approval or oversight.

Likewise, many of the details of the NSA domestic spying program were withheld from Congress and escaped public notice until media reports unearthed them and the Bush administration now threatens to jail the reporters who broke the story.

I wish I could prove this. I wish one, just one, source on the inside was willing to come forward and allow his or her name to be used but those who might be tempted see what happened to Mary McCarthy, the CIA employee fired and under threat of prosecution for leaking information about CIA torture camps in Europe.

But I know it is happening. People I've known for years and trust tell me it is happening and the past record of spying, lies and deceit by the Bush administration point to just such an operation.

This nation is under attack. We, the people, are under attack. And the enemy in this case is not an Islamic radical hiding in a cave in Afghanistan but a cabal of truly evil men and women at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and on Capitol Hill aided by carefully-picked, law-ignoring appointees at the Hoover Building on Pennsylvania Avenue, a black glass-walled building at Fort Meade, MD, and a complex in Langley, Virginia.

[stickyfingerz]

Goto fuckin Sweeden..... Oh wait you already are. Worry about your own socialist piece of shit, high suicide, gay marriage lovin country bub.

[The Duck]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerzdotnet

Goto fuckin Sweeden..... Oh wait you already are. Worry about your own socialist piece of shit, high suicide, gay marriage lovin country bub.

[tony286]

its getting very fucked up , even if the sheep cant see it

[jimmy-3-way]

Freedom is lame.

Having someone watching you all the time is good it's like having...well it's like having a big brother to keep an eye on you and keep the riff raff in line.

[JD]

fuck. time to relocate to canada land. anyone got a spare room?

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by tony404

its getting very fucked up , even if the sheep cant see it

Baaa!! You probably stood in the line of people that wanted to know why we couldnt stop 911 I bet.

[GatorB]

Those that would sacrifice lienrty for security shall not receive or deserve either. So appearantly stickyfingerzdotnet doesn't like freedom. Hey here's an idea move to China or N Korea or Cuba. They hate freedom too. Leave America for those that love freedom that trying to make America more like the commie governments you admire. And you do admire them. The proof is in your posts.

[gangbangjoe]

Originally Posted by SPeRMiNaToR

fuck. time to relocate to canada land. anyone got a spare room?

ask sleazy and jman

[12clicks]

you know, if I could stomach being a liberal, I'd be rich. you can sell liberal fools just about anything and call it the truth.

[Jay_StandAhead]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerzdotnet

Baaa!! You probably stood in the line of people that wanted to know why we couldnt stop 911 I bet.

ROFL as if spying on americans would stop a future 911.

Who gained the most from 911? And would these people want another 911 to happen so they could gain even more? Think about it.

[The Duck]

Its pretty hard for the Bush administration to stop 911 when they orchestrated it themselves.

www.911truth.org

[SirMoby]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerzdotnet

Baaa!! You probably stood in the line of people that wanted to know why we couldnt stop 911 I bet.

Didn't the administration know about 2 of the terroists for 16 months before?

Didn't Ashcroft stop flying commercial air lines because of the terror threats 6 months before?

The wire tapping would have done nothing to prevent it because Dubya's administration didn't follow up on the information they already had.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by SirMoby

Didn't the administration know about 2 of the terroists for 16 months before?

The Sarasota Herald Tribune had at least 3 atricles about Atta and his terroist connections in the 6 months before 9-11. Atta was living in Venice, Florida( 15 miles south of Sarasota in Sarasota County ). Coincidently Sarasota was where Bush was at when 9-11 happened.

[StimulMedia]

It's time to relocate....

[kanalj]

all those cool futuristic movies are coming true!

[Matt_WildCash]

Trust me, this is ONLY THE BEGINNING of the shit they are going to pull off.
Look at how easily Americans happily threw away there rights after 9/11.

CAN YOU IMAGINE what would happen if a Nuke went off in a small City?? And was blamed on terrorists?

Really think about it, if a Nuke went off on US soil WHAT LAWS COULD THEY BRING IN????

Any and every law they wanted, say goodbye to freespeech and say hello to a police state. Say hello to "Mandatory" DNA, Finger printing of all US Citizens and then some.

[justsexxx]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerzdotnet

Goto fuckin Sweeden..... Oh wait you already are. Worry about your own socialist piece of shit, high suicide, gay marriage lovin country bub.

Maybe they have more suicide because less ppl get killed than in the USA? Also what is wrong with gay marriage? Please tell me you are not a bible believer

[Jay_StandAhead]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

you know, if I could stomach being a liberal, I'd be rich. you can sell liberal fools just about anything and call it the truth.

just like you can sell conservative fools WMDs in Iraq

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by Matt_WildCash

Look at how easily Americans happily threw away there rights after 9/11.

can you give specific examples of these rights we've thrown away?
I just want to know so I can throw my support behind getting them back.

[Jay_StandAhead]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

can you give specific examples of these rights we've thrown away?
I just want to know so I can throw my support behind getting them back.

Have you read the patriot act? or is this another one of those liberals' lie?

Provision 213 authorizes "surreptitious search warrants and seizures upon a showing of reasonable necessity and eliminates the requirement of Rule 41 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure that immediate notification of seized items be provided."[1]

In special cases covered by FISA (amended by the USA PATRIOT Act), the warrants may come from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) instead of a common Federal or State Court. FISC warrants are not public record and therefore are not required to be released. Other warrants must be released, especially to the person under investigation.

A second complaint against Sneak-and-Peek searches is that the owner of the property (or person identified in business/library records) does not have to be told about the search. There is a special clause that allows the Director of the FBI to request phone records for a person without ever notifying the person.

That's just part of it. If you don't think sneak and peak searches or access to library or phone records without notification do not reduce your rights, then don't bother replying to this post.

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

Have you read the patriot act? or is this another one of those liberals' lie?




That's just part of it. If you don't think sneak and peak searches or access to library or phone records without notification do not reduce your rights, then don't bother replying to this post.

I'm sorry. Are you advocating telling criminals about searches?
As you've pointed out, to conduct the search, there has to be a "a showing of reasonable necessity" and warrents issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC).

Now, which freedoms were lost here?
I'm really curious because I really want to get them back.

[Jay_StandAhead]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

I'm sorry. Are you advocating telling criminals about searches?
As you've pointed out, to conduct the search, there has to be a "a showing of reasonable necessity" and warrents issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC).

Now, which freedoms were lost here?
I'm really curious because I really want to get them back.

Who decides who's a criminal or who might look like a criminal? "showing of reasonable necessity"... yeah, the law inforcment agencies are really known for being discerning and not abusing their powers.

In a free society, it's normal for citizens to be made aware when their home / business is searched (you're innocent until proven guilty). This was changed after 911. This used to be a right, but not anymore.

So there you go, you lost a right (and we only touched 5 lines of the patriot act - we're not even talking about NSA wiretaping etc yet).

Under FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) procedures, all hearings and decisions are conducted in secret. The Department of Justice has not disclosed even the most basic information about the court's activities despite repeated requests from Congress, the American Civil Liberties Union and other advocacy groups.

Furthermore, by skirting reports of illegal warrants and unlawful surveillance by the FISA court itself, the FISA Court of Appeals and the U.S. Supreme Court have failed to address several fundamental issues.

And here's something else you might want to take a minute and think about:

Federal Source to ABC News: We Know Who You're Calling

May 15, 2006 10:33 AM

Brian Ross and Richard Esposito Report:

A senior federal law enforcement official tells ABC News the government is tracking the phone numbers we (Brian Ross and Richard Esposito) call in an effort to root out confidential sources.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/...l_source_.html

If you don't see anything wrong with this last part, well imagine if whistle blowers could never be allowed to speak out. You'd get a corrupt and almighty government in place.

Do you agree with the outting of Joe Wilson's wife? You think it's ok to commit treason cause he questioned the administration's "facts" about Iraq? Ultimately all of this is related.

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

Who decides who's a criminal or who might look like a criminal? "showing of reasonable necessity"... yeah, the law inforcment agencies are really known for being discerning and not abusing their powers.

In a free society, it's normal for citizens to be made aware when their home / business is searched (you're innocent until proven guilty). This was changed after 911. This used to be a right, but not anymore.

Incorrect.
the bill of rights reads:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

so, if you can't find "made aware when their home / business is searched" in there, you should move on. you're wrong.

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

So there you go, you lost a right (and we only touched 5 lines of the patriot act - we're not even talking about NSA wiretaping etc yet).

anytime you'd like to talk about the already proven legal wiretapping of people calling outside the country to suspected terrorists, go ahead. I'll school you on that too.

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

And here's something else you might want to take a minute and think about:



If you don't see anything wrong with this last part, well imagine if whistle blowers could never be allowed to speak out. You'd get a corrupt and almighty government in place.

sadly, liberals want to confuse "whistle blowing" with leaking classified information. In another time, this would be called spying or subversion. liberal scum now want it to be "whistle blowing"
they should be thrown in jail.

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

Do you agree with the outting of Joe Wilson's wife? You think it's ok to commit treason cause he questioned the administration's "facts" about Iraq? Ultimately all of this is related.

I sure do agree with it.
once you use your job to conduct politics, you should no longer have your job. please show me proof she was ever covert.
I'll wait.

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

Who decides who's a criminal or who might look like a criminal? "showing of reasonable necessity"... yeah, the law inforcment agencies are really known for being discerning and not abusing their powers.

In a free society, it's normal for citizens to be made aware when their home / business is searched (you're innocent until proven guilty). This was changed after 911. This used to be a right, but not anymore.

Incorrect.
the bill of rights reads:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

so, if you can't find "made aware when their home / business is searched" in there, you should move on. you're wrong.

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

So there you go, you lost a right (and we only touched 5 lines of the patriot act - we're not even talking about NSA wiretaping etc yet).

anytime you'd like to talk about the already proven legal wiretapping of people calling outside the country to suspected terrorists, go ahead. I'll school you on that too.

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

And here's something else you might want to take a minute and think about:



If you don't see anything wrong with this last part, well imagine if whistle blowers could never be allowed to speak out. You'd get a corrupt and almighty government in place.

sadly, liberals want to confuse "whistle blowing" with leaking classified information. In another time, this would be called spying or subversion. liberal scum now want it to be "whistle blowing"
they should be thrown in jail.

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

Do you agree with the outting of Joe Wilson's wife? You think it's ok to commit treason cause he questioned the administration's "facts" about Iraq? Ultimately all of this is related.

I sure do agree with it.
once you use your job to conduct politics, you should no longer have your job. please show me proof she was ever covert.
I'll wait.

[12clicks]

so we're still back at trying to figure out which rights we've lost.
no surprise.

[Jay_StandAhead]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

so we're still back at trying to figure out which rights we've lost.
no surprise.

So you're saying that being notified of searches was not a right before?

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

So you're saying that being notified of searches was not a right before?

thats what I'm saying.

[pocketkangaroo]

I have no problem with bashing some of the policies we have in place, but atleast use some credible sources. Capital Hill Blue is not exactly the best way to get a point across. Amazing how people here read something in a nutbag publication and post it as fact.

[Jay_StandAhead]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

anytime you'd like to talk about the already proven legal wiretapping of people calling outside the country to suspected terrorists, go ahead. I'll school you on that too.

If you think you're schooling me, I want some of what you're smoking

sadly, liberals want to confuse "whistle blowing" with leaking classified information. In another time, this would be called spying or subversion. liberal scum now want it to be "whistle blowing"
they should be thrown in jail.

lol this is priceless. So cheney should be in jail cause he leaked classified information, correct? What about Nixon, you think the whistle blowers should have shut up too? Oh wait, the info wasn't classified... What if someday a really bad president is abusing power, doing illegal things, eveyrone should shut up about it? Get real

I sure do agree with it.
once you use your job to conduct politics, you should no longer have your job. please show me proof she was ever covert.
I'll wait.

"Little is known of Plame's professional career. While undercover, she had described herself as an "energy analyst" for the private company "Brewster Jennings & Associates," which the CIA later acknowledged was a front company for certain investigations. "Brewster Jennings" was first entered into Dun and Bradstreet records on May 22, 1994, but D&B would not discuss the source of the filing. D&B records list the company as a "legal services office," located at 101 Arch Street, Boston, Massachusetts.

David Armstrong, an Andover researcher for the Public Education Center, believed that the Brewster Jennings & Associates cover had not been done convincingly and that other covers would have been established for her by the CIA. [4]"

Now what? lol

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Those that would sacrifice lienrty for security shall not receive or deserve either. So appearantly stickyfingerzdotnet doesn't like freedom. Hey here's an idea move to China or N Korea or Cuba. They hate freedom too. Leave America for those that love freedom that trying to make America more like the commie governments you admire. And you do admire them. The proof is in your posts.

Wow lol. First off wtf is lienrty? Are you fucking hig? lol And second Freedom isnt free. Im the most anti Commie anti Socialist person you will ever meet son.

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

ROFL as if spying on americans would stop a future 911.

Who gained the most from 911? And would these people want another 911 to happen so they could gain even more? Think about it.

There have been many new attempts at terror within the U.S. that have been stopped by this program.

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by SirMoby

Didn't the administration know about 2 of the terroists for 16 months before?

Didn't Ashcroft stop flying commercial air lines because of the terror threats 6 months before?

The wire tapping would have done nothing to prevent it because Dubya's administration didn't follow up on the information they already had.

Do we need to do the math here? Bush was only in office for 4 months prior to 911.

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

If you think you're schooling me, I want some of what you're smoking

how about dropping the trite coments and answering my original question?
oh right, you can't.

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

lol this is priceless. So cheney should be in jail cause he leaked classified information, correct? What about Nixon, you think the whistle blowers should have shut up too? Oh wait, the info wasn't classified... What if someday a really bad president is abusing power, doing illegal things, eveyrone should shut up about it? Get real

silly liberal kid. don't grasp at straws and change the subject. just learn something.
1. it hasn't even remotely been proven that cheney outed anyone.
2. there was no classified info with nixon
3. living on what ifs when trying to prove a point is no way to go thru life, son.

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

"Little is known of Plame's professional career. While undercover, she had described herself as an "energy analyst" for the private company "Brewster Jennings & Associates," which the CIA later acknowledged was a front company for certain investigations. "Brewster Jennings" was first entered into Dun and Bradstreet records on May 22, 1994, but D&B would not discuss the source of the filing. D&B records list the company as a "legal services office," located at 101 Arch Street, Boston, Massachusetts.

David Armstrong, an Andover researcher for the Public Education Center, believed that the Brewster Jennings & Associates cover had not been done convincingly and that other covers would have been established for her by the CIA. [4]"

Now what? lol

now post the link to your quote so we can see the silly source.

[dv2]

Yeah the idea that powerful, rich, white men would ever abuse their status for personal gain is unproven and unlikely at best.

If your not shopping...your with the terrorists.

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by dv2

Yeah the idea that powerful, rich, white men would ever abuse their status for personal gain is unproven and unlikely at best.

If your not shopping...your with the terrorists.

cute but not relevant

[The Duck]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerzdotnet

There have been many new attempts at terror within the U.S. that have been stopped by this program.

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

They are shitting in your mouth and you are gladly eating it.

[Jay_StandAhead]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

how about dropping the trite coments

Originally Posted by 12clicks

silly liberal kid

right...

Originally Posted by 12clicks

silly liberal kid. don't grasp at straws and change the subject. just learn something.
1. it hasn't even remotely been proven that cheney outed anyone.
2. there was no classified info with nixon
3. living on what ifs when trying to prove a point is no way to go thru life, son.

1. Agreed on Cheney, it hasn't been proven yet. He may be cleared in the end, but his top aide and karl rove might be in hot water.

2. So you agree that whistle blowing is ok then? cause you accused "liberal scum" of confusing it with leaking classified information. No classified info with nixon, so it's ok to leak. So we agree on my original point that a world without whistle blowings could lead to an almighty and corrupt government. I never talked about classified info.

3. I have no difficulty thinking you never wonder "what could happen", which is why you support anything this government does. I don't want to start another debate on this, so let's end this here.

Originally Posted by 12clicks

sadly, liberals want to confuse "whistle blowing" with leaking classified information. In another time, this would be called spying or subversion. liberal scum now want it to be "whistle blowing"
they should be thrown in jail.

Originally Posted by 12clicks

now post the link to your quote so we can see the silly source.

Read the wikipedia article for starters, there's links to many sources. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Plame

special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald said the following:

Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer. In July 2003, the fact that Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer was classified. Not only was it classified, but it was not widely known outside the intelligence community.

Number one, I am not speaking to whether or not Valerie Wilson was covert. And anything I say is not intended to say anything beyond this: that she was a CIA officer from January 1st, 2002, forward. I will confirm that her association with the CIA was classified at that time through July 2003.

So classified info was leaked. To put it into your own words: "they should be thrown in jail"

Cheney's top aide leaking classified info to the media without Cheney knowing? Yes it's possible... but is it likely?


As for your original question, as posted earlier: "and eliminates the requirement of Rule 41 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure that immediate notification of seized items be provided"

So the law used to require disclosure of seizures, but not anymore. Call it what you want, I'm no lawyer but it looks to me as if you lost protection (if you don't want to call it a right) there ;)

[ideas_market]

It seems the days when America was a Democracy are over

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by ideas_market

It seems the days when America was a Democracy are over

America was never a democracy.
finish school, then come back.

[12clicks]

Jay,

what's going on with leaks has got to stop. its not whistle blowing, its undermining the government. We were listening to terrorist phone calls right up until it was leaked. people who leak classified info should be thrown in jail be they republican or democrat.

as far as the rights we've lost, we've lost nothing

"the right to be notified of a search" does not exist. "the right to protection against unreasonable searches and seizures" does.

[The Duck]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

Jay,

what's going on with leaks has got to stop. its not whistle blowing, its undermining the government. We were listening to terrorist phone calls right up until it was leaked. people who leak classified info should be thrown in jail be they republican or democrat.

as far as the rights we've lost, we've lost nothing

"the right to be notified of a search" does not exist. "the right to protection against unreasonable searches and seizures" does.

Actually ALL information should be open to every citizen.

[germ]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

you know, if I could stomach being a liberal, I'd be rich. you can sell liberal fools just about anything and call it the truth.

while i agree that the liberals have a lot of flaws and bad ideas, most of the people that vote republican have been completely duped into voting against their own interests.

religion has been used to trick the majority of conservatives into voting republican. they force the focus on minute, insignificant issues such as gay marriage and abortion to divide and conquor.

[Jay_StandAhead]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

Jay,

what's going on with leaks has got to stop. its not whistle blowing, its undermining the government. We were listening to terrorist phone calls right up until it was leaked. people who leak classified info should be thrown in jail be they republican or democrat.

as far as the rights we've lost, we've lost nothing

"the right to be notified of a search" does not exist. "the right to protection against unreasonable searches and seizures" does.

I completely agree that if classify info is leaked, whoever leaks it has to go to jail. Same applies to the Valerie Plame situation.

As for the "rights", if you limit your search for rights from the bill of rights being undermined by the patriot act, you'll have an easier time defending the patriot act, but "sneak and peaks", seizures without notification, secret prisons etc are limitations on your freedoms/protections. If the government doesn't abuse of its powers then there's no problem, but with such broad legislation, who's to say a Democrat president won't abuse the act and go after his political enemies for example?

I know you don't want to talk "what ifs", and it's fair enough. I'm just saying the potential for abuse is there, and that's why in my opinion, rights or freedoms or whatever you want to call it can be attacked by it.

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by kandah

Actually ALL information should be open to every citizen.

come back when you finish school. the adults are talking now.

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by germ

while i agree that the liberals have a lot of flaws and bad ideas, most of the people that vote republican have been completely duped into voting against their own interests.

religion has been used to trick the majority of conservatives into voting republican. they force the focus on minute, insignificant issues such as gay marriage and abortion to divide and conquor.

incorrect.

do you really think you live in a world where everyone who doesn't think like you has been duped?
thats pretty silly.

[Webby]

Awesome thread. If the comments on this thread were to be taken at face value and be representitive of the US population as a whole - the US is totally fucked as a country. Very sad.

What other nation has so many idiots? None. They are a complete embarassment to any nation.


PS Was not commenting on your post kandah - more on the spewage from retards.

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

I completely agree that if classify info is leaked, whoever leaks it has to go to jail. Same applies to the Valerie Plame situation.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

As for the "rights", if you limit your search for rights from the bill of rights being undermined by the patriot act, you'll have an easier time defending the patriot act, but "sneak and peaks", seizures without notification, secret prisons etc are limitations on your freedoms/protections. If the government doesn't abuse of its powers then there's no problem, but with such broad legislation, who's to say a Democrat president won't abuse the act and go after his political enemies for example?

I know you don't want to talk "what ifs", and it's fair enough. I'm just saying the potential for abuse is there, and that's why in my opinion, rights or freedoms or whatever you want to call it can be attacked by it.

this I don't agree with. notification is irrelevant. you're talking about still going before a court, proving you have cause. notification of a criminal or suspect erodes NONE of your protections. its the judiciary they report to that is the protection. Also, there are no secret prisons for US citizens. I'm 100% ok with secret prisons for terrorists.

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by Webby

Awesome thread. If the comments on this thread were to be taken at face value and be representitive of the US population as a whole - the US is totally fucked as a country. Very sad.

What other nation has so many idiots? None. They are a complete embarassment to any nation.


PS Was not commenting on your post kandah - more on the spewage from retards.

translation: knowing nothing about the subject, I'll just spew my "hate America" drivel. its what I do.

[germ]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

incorrect.

do you really think you live in a world where everyone who doesn't think like you has been duped?
thats pretty silly.

not everyone, just the middle/lower middle class, red state republican. (im from a red state btw) if you're in the upper class, it makes perfect sense to vote republican. tax breaks for all!

also, for reference, im neither liberal nor conservative. republican nor democrat. i have certain viewpoints that can coincide with both of those, and some that conflict with them both as well. so when i say what im saying, im not suggesting that everyone that doesnt believe the way i believe is wrong/stupid/has been tricked. im just saying that the republicans have hijacked religion as their tool to guarantee success, and a lot of people vote against their own financial interests because of that.