Was Phil wrong to pull Kobe? Interesting perspective on espn.com - GoFuckYourself.com

Cory W · 12-21-2005, 10:29 AM

By Royce Webb
ESPN.com

Let's not overthink this. Let's be clear.

Lakers coach Phil Jackson screwed up -- and screwed all of us -- when he took Kobe Bryant out of the game with 12 minutes to play.

Let's look at the facts as they appeared after three quarters ...

Kobe had 62 points and counting, including 30 in the third quarter alone.

He was the best player on the floor (sorry, Dirk).

He was within nine points of the all-time single-game record for the Lakers, one of the most storied franchises in NBA history. (That's 71, by Elgin Baylor, on Nov. 15, 1960.)

The game was in Hollywood, or close enough ... not only the entertainment capital of the world, but the birthplace of Showtime.

The fans were on their feet, cheering wildly. Even former Laker and sometime Hollywood actor Rick Fox was laughing and cheering, on the night he was being honored.

So ... by all means, get Kobe out of there!

Look, I've read "Sacred Hoops." I know basketball is a team game. I know there is a right way to play. I realize Phil Jackson is the Zen Master.

And I realize there was a slight chance that Kobe could have gotten hurt. Maybe the Mavs would have gotten mad and made sure Kobe felt their wrath, as they did when Josh Howard gave him a hard foul earlier in the third quarter.

But, hey, sometimes you just have to go for it. When a pitcher has a perfect game, you leave him in. When a bowler has a shot at 300, he keeps rolling the ball, no matter what the score is. And when Kobe Bryant has 62 points after three quarters, you have to find out ... Can he be the first Laker to score 75? Can he be the second player in NBA history to score 80?

People go to games and tune in on TV to watch players do what Kobe Bryant did for 36 minutes (33 minutes, actually). They want to see the great plays, the great players, the astounding performances. They want to see something they've never seen before.

The Los Angeles Times reported after the game that Jackson had left it up to Kobe whether he wanted to return "if he so desired," and he had declined: "That's not what we play for. That's not what it's about. It's not to score 70 points. We wanted to win the game, and the game was in the bag. It was in the refrigerator."

As usual, Kobe's words were well chosen. And, as usual, it's hard to take them at face value.

Does anyone think scoring and individual achievement aren't of vital importance to Bryant? Then why did he tell a teammate and a coach he planned to score 50 against the Mavs last night? Why did he have zero assists for the game? Why did he shoot 14 times (counting shots on which he was fouled, which don't count as official shot attempts) in the last five minutes of the third quarter? That's one shot every 21 seconds, for those of you scoring at home, including four 3-point attempts ... with his team up by more than 30 points toward the end of that barrage.

The fact remains, the coach decides who is in the game. Jackson removed Bryant. He left him on the bench. He could have put him back in. And surely no one believes that Kobe isn't even more curious than the rest of us just how many he can score in a game.

To cinch the case, let's go back to perhaps the most storied night in NBA history -- March 2, 1962, when Wilt Chamberlain scored 100 points in a game.

What if the Philadelphia Warriors had removed Wilt at the end of the third quarter, when he had only 69 points? How would that have been a good thing for fans, or for the NBA? The Warriors won 169-147, so it's not like they needed all 100 points.

This isn't about Kobe. This is about a once-in-a-lifetime game, which was robbed from us as much as it was from Kobe. This is about what might have been. We'll never know.

StickyGreen · 12-21-2005, 10:31 AM

he should have left him in the game...

Spoff · 12-21-2005, 10:36 AM

Well "the proof is in the pudding".. as they say. Since Phil has more rings then any ESPN employee.. you gotta let him RUN the team.. cause that is what he gets paid for.

Doctor Dre · 12-21-2005, 10:39 AM

That sucks for the fans ... but I guess he agreed . You don't wanna punish your top player after a game like that.

ronaldo · 12-21-2005, 10:47 AM

I personally think that with the past between these two, Kobe wants to be SEEN more as a team player than he perhaps really is.

Somewhere down the line, when these two are no longer working with one another, Kobe will spill his true feelings.

I like Phil Jackson, and despise Kobe Bryant btw, but he still should have been kept in the game. Maybe Jackson is still harboring some resentment. Instead of simply asking him if he wanted to keep playing, under these circumstances, he probably should have been encouraging him. Without that encouragement, and the game in the bag, Bryant could look nothing other than selfish in this situation...if he chose to keep playing.

Biggy2 · 12-21-2005, 10:56 AM

phil was right for taking him out. the game was in the bag, no reason to show off. coaches also don't like to embarass each other, once you get up so much (the lakers were up something like 30+), you don't keep ramming it down their throats. lakers aren't the most stellar team and there are other teams that could do it back to them, its a courteousy thing... kobe doesn't seem so upset by it, he still had a great game.

that article is just one opinion from an espn reporter who is trying to stir BS and get attention.

Shaft_1971 · 12-21-2005, 10:59 AM

I'm a big basket ball fan as well as a player. There is one thing that coaches and teams do when they are clearly winning a game - Don't embarrass the opposing team. It's not about Kobe possibly hurting himself. It's more a sense of respect for the other coaches and players.

AsianDevil · 12-21-2005, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaft_1971

I'm a big basket ball fan as well as a player. There is one thing that coaches and teams do when they are clearly winning a game - Don't embarrass the opposing team. It's not about Kobe possibly hurting himself. It's more a sense of respect for the other coaches and players.

Couldn't agree more. Kobe is a huge talent, but he also has the ego to go along with it. This could really do some damage to the team internally, or it could go a very long ways. The ZenMaster has his work cut out for him, either way it goes, that's for damn sure.

Mr. Mojo Risin · 12-21-2005, 11:03 AM

I heard Kobe decided not to play in the 4th.

dynastoned · 12-21-2005, 11:04 AM

if the game was in the bag and kobe didn't feel he needed to prove anything by setting a record, where is the problem? if you're saying kobe scoring 60 points isn't enough for the fans well then what is? thats not something you see every night or even every year so if i would have gone to that game i would have to say i got my moneys worth..

ronaldo · 12-21-2005, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaft_1971

I'm a big basket ball fan as well as a player. There is one thing that coaches and teams do when they are clearly winning a game - Don't embarrass the opposing team. It's not about Kobe possibly hurting himself. It's more a sense of respect for the other coaches and players.

This is definitely true too. But I think the other team would understand as well that when potential history is being made, it's not just like rubbing it in under normal circumstances. If he only had 40 and kept him in, that's another story.

The fans do pay to see the game and to take that away from them isn't giving your target audience what they want.

Hell, I'll even go you one further and say that if they were playing AWAY from home, the OTHER teams fans would be wanting to see him play. Okay, perhaps Kobe isn't the perfect example of this, but when a pitcher pitches a perfect game away from home, the audience still usually gives a nice ovation. So imagine if Kobe had gone out and scored 85 points away from home. I think most arenas would give him a standing ovation.

Alex · 12-21-2005, 11:08 AM

Its the same thing with the Colts last Sunday.

The coach had a choice to make. To you continue for a perfect season and be the second team to do so.

Or do you relieve the pressure of always winning and avoid injuries by losing a game.

Although i think the colts shuold have ended the chargers out, they chose not to. And i am sure thier coach made the right choice.

Same goes for Phil Jackson. He is a great coach, 9 rings on his fingers. Thats 9 more than anyone in this thread. He knew what he was doing

Skylark · 12-21-2005, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronaldo

This is definitely true too. But I think the other team would understand as well that when potential history is being made, it's not just like rubbing it in under normal circumstances. If he only had 40 and kept him in, that's another story.

The fans do pay to see the game and to take that away from them isn't giving your target audience what they want.

Hell, I'll even go you one further and say that if they were playing AWAY from home, the OTHER teams fans would be wanting to see him play. Okay, perhaps Kobe isn't the perfect example of this, but when a pitcher pitches a perfect game away from home, the audience still usually gives a nice ovation. So imagine if Kobe had gone out and scored 85 points away from home. I think most arenas would give him a standing ovation.

The only folks that would understand this would be the laker fans. Kobe already has a bad rap as a selfish player. Even from this game his critics consider him selfish after shooting 50+ percent. Why would you take the risk.

SmokeyTheBear · 12-21-2005, 12:14 PM

I'm not a huge basketball fan , but it seems to me if you had an obvious "win" in the bag , you wouldnt put your best players out there to get HAMMERED by the other team who will be trying every trick in the book to win. Especially not one getting paid so much , too much risk..

ronaldo · 12-21-2005, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylark

The only folks that would understand this would be the laker fans. Kobe already has a bad rap as a selfish player. Even from this game his critics consider him selfish after shooting 50+ percent. Why would you take the risk.

I definitely agree with that. That's what I meant when I said Kobe isn't the perfect example.

Now if it was Lebron or Jordan, I'd almost guarantee virtually every fan in every arena in the NBA would be pissed off if they took him out...even if it looked like they were rubbing it in. They'd WANT to see if he'd get 80, 90 or 100, and the other team would understand. They wouldn't LIKE it, but they'd understand why it was being done. THIS isn't a case of disrespect to the other team, it's potential history.

baddog · 12-21-2005, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spoff

Well "the proof is in the pudding".. as they say. Since Phil has more rings then any ESPN employee.. you gotta let him RUN the team.. cause that is what he gets paid for.

Bingo . . . I can just see it if Kobe tore a knee after scoring point 81 and was out for the rest of the season, or his career was ended.

There is no "I" in team.

OG LennyT · 12-21-2005, 12:33 PM

Whats up with all the 'pansy' ownership of pro teams these days?

Rest the team for the playoffs coach...

Rest the guy, hes done enough for tonight..

He looks a bit tired, go ahead, take him out for a few games...

bullshit imho

they never used to do this crap, in any sport

baddog · 12-21-2005, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvd316

Whats up with all the 'pansy' ownership of pro teams these days?

Rest the team for the playoffs coach...

Rest the guy, hes done enough for tonight..

He looks a bit tired, go ahead, take him out for a few games...

bullshit imho

they never used to do this crap, in any sport

They did not used to have the kind of money they have invested now either.

Shaft_1971 · 12-21-2005, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronaldo

I definitely agree with that. That's what I meant when I said Kobe isn't the perfect example.

Now if it was Lebron or Jordan, I'd almost guarantee virtually every fan in every arena in the NBA would be pissed off if they took him out...even if it looked like they were rubbing it in. They'd WANT to see if he'd get 80, 90 or 100, and the other team would understand. They wouldn't LIKE it, but they'd understand why it was being done. THIS isn't a case of disrespect to the other team, it's potential history.

Note: Jordan has been pulled many times in his career in situations like this. Mike has been pulled in 3rd quaters of games when on a scoring spree.

Shaq
Lebron
Malone
Bird

Everyone

Translation · 12-21-2005, 03:10 PM

its a dumb game. cry about it.

Thee Johnclave · 12-21-2005, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronaldo

This is definitely true too. But I think the other team would understand as well that when potential history is being made, it's not just like rubbing it in under normal circumstances. If he only had 40 and kept him in, that's another story.

Right...it's not like normal circumstances, it's worse. I guarantee Dallas (or any team for that matter) would not have wanted their name in the books as the ones who Kobe put up 70, 80 or 90 on.

PixeLs · 12-21-2005, 06:32 PM

I hate Phil more after that game! It won't be impossible for him to hit 80 or even 100 if he gave that last quarter to him...

The Demon · 12-21-2005, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsianDevil

Couldn't agree more. Kobe is a huge talent, but he also has the ego to go along with it. This could really do some damage to the team internally, or it could go a very long ways. The ZenMaster has his work cut out for him, either way it goes, that's for damn sure.

I very much agree with this, the NBA is about respect. When you are crushing an opponent, you do not add insult to injury. Plus who has more credibility, some stupid reporter or a 9 time ring winner? Sure he could have left him in the game, and the way the Mavs were fouling him, you could have lost him for the season. Some of these ESPN guys have no logic whatsoever.

reed_4 · 12-22-2005, 01:30 AM

For sure Phil knows what he is doing. With 6 championship ring with the Chicago Bulls & 3 with the Lakers, I know he can handle the situation well. It's not about how would Kobe score a high points but how would the team win.

bdld · 12-22-2005, 01:51 AM

if phil let kobe stay in the game, im thinking the mavs would've gotten real physical with kobe, could have gotten ugly.

12-21-2005, 10:29 AM	#1
Cory W Deeply shallow Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Hollywood, Ca. Posts: 9,133	Was Phil wrong to pull Kobe? Interesting perspective on espn.com By Royce Webb ESPN.com Let's not overthink this. Let's be clear. Lakers coach Phil Jackson screwed up -- and screwed all of us -- when he took Kobe Bryant out of the game with 12 minutes to play. Let's look at the facts as they appeared after three quarters ... Kobe had 62 points and counting, including 30 in the third quarter alone. He was the best player on the floor (sorry, Dirk). He was within nine points of the all-time single-game record for the Lakers, one of the most storied franchises in NBA history. (That's 71, by Elgin Baylor, on Nov. 15, 1960.) The game was in Hollywood, or close enough ... not only the entertainment capital of the world, but the birthplace of Showtime. The fans were on their feet, cheering wildly. Even former Laker and sometime Hollywood actor Rick Fox was laughing and cheering, on the night he was being honored. So ... by all means, get Kobe out of there! Look, I've read "Sacred Hoops." I know basketball is a team game. I know there is a right way to play. I realize Phil Jackson is the Zen Master. And I realize there was a slight chance that Kobe could have gotten hurt. Maybe the Mavs would have gotten mad and made sure Kobe felt their wrath, as they did when Josh Howard gave him a hard foul earlier in the third quarter. But, hey, sometimes you just have to go for it. When a pitcher has a perfect game, you leave him in. When a bowler has a shot at 300, he keeps rolling the ball, no matter what the score is. And when Kobe Bryant has 62 points after three quarters, you have to find out ... Can he be the first Laker to score 75? Can he be the second player in NBA history to score 80? People go to games and tune in on TV to watch players do what Kobe Bryant did for 36 minutes (33 minutes, actually). They want to see the great plays, the great players, the astounding performances. They want to see something they've never seen before. The Los Angeles Times reported after the game that Jackson had left it up to Kobe whether he wanted to return "if he so desired," and he had declined: "That's not what we play for. That's not what it's about. It's not to score 70 points. We wanted to win the game, and the game was in the bag. It was in the refrigerator." As usual, Kobe's words were well chosen. And, as usual, it's hard to take them at face value. Does anyone think scoring and individual achievement aren't of vital importance to Bryant? Then why did he tell a teammate and a coach he planned to score 50 against the Mavs last night? Why did he have zero assists for the game? Why did he shoot 14 times (counting shots on which he was fouled, which don't count as official shot attempts) in the last five minutes of the third quarter? That's one shot every 21 seconds, for those of you scoring at home, including four 3-point attempts ... with his team up by more than 30 points toward the end of that barrage. The fact remains, the coach decides who is in the game. Jackson removed Bryant. He left him on the bench. He could have put him back in. And surely no one believes that Kobe isn't even more curious than the rest of us just how many he can score in a game. To cinch the case, let's go back to perhaps the most storied night in NBA history -- March 2, 1962, when Wilt Chamberlain scored 100 points in a game. What if the Philadelphia Warriors had removed Wilt at the end of the third quarter, when he had only 69 points? How would that have been a good thing for fans, or for the NBA? The Warriors won 169-147, so it's not like they needed all 100 points. This isn't about Kobe. This is about a once-in-a-lifetime game, which was robbed from us as much as it was from Kobe. This is about what might have been. We'll never know. __________________ ICQ: 292310358 Offering writing and content services (mainstream). Marketing for L3 Payments

12-21-2005, 10:31 AM	#2
StickyGreen . Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 13,076	he should have left him in the game... __________________ Refer Cam Girls and Take Home 10% of Everything They Make For Life

12-21-2005, 10:36 AM	#3
Spoff Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Burlington,ON Posts: 783	Well "the proof is in the pudding".. as they say. Since Phil has more rings then any ESPN employee.. you gotta let him RUN the team.. cause that is what he gets paid for. __________________ Who the fuck is Spoff????? - 10087393 (ICQ)

12-21-2005, 10:59 AM	#7
Shaft_1971 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,711	I'm a big basket ball fan as well as a player. There is one thing that coaches and teams do when they are clearly winning a game - Don't embarrass the opposing team. It's not about Kobe possibly hurting himself. It's more a sense of respect for the other coaches and players. __________________ SHAFT Skype: Shaft_1971 Email: [email protected] Email: [email protected]

12-21-2005, 11:08 AM	#12
Alex So Fucking Banned (YEA!!) Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 10,963	Its the same thing with the Colts last Sunday. The coach had a choice to make. To you continue for a perfect season and be the second team to do so. Or do you relieve the pressure of always winning and avoid injuries by losing a game. Although i think the colts shuold have ended the chargers out, they chose not to. And i am sure thier coach made the right choice. Same goes for Phil Jackson. He is a great coach, 9 rings on his fingers. Thats 9 more than anyone in this thread. He knew what he was doing __________________ Care about me? Who? Me! Who?

12-21-2005, 10:47 AM	#5
ronaldo Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: ICQ#: 272000271 Posts: 5,475	I personally think that with the past between these two, Kobe wants to be SEEN more as a team player than he perhaps really is. Somewhere down the line, when these two are no longer working with one another, Kobe will spill his true feelings. I like Phil Jackson, and despise Kobe Bryant btw, but he still should have been kept in the game. Maybe Jackson is still harboring some resentment. Instead of simply asking him if he wanted to keep playing, under these circumstances, he probably should have been encouraging him. Without that encouragement, and the game in the bag, Bryant could look nothing other than selfish in this situation...if he chose to keep playing.

12-21-2005, 10:56 AM	#6
Biggy2 Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,821	phil was right for taking him out. the game was in the bag, no reason to show off. coaches also don't like to embarass each other, once you get up so much (the lakers were up something like 30+), you don't keep ramming it down their throats. lakers aren't the most stellar team and there are other teams that could do it back to them, its a courteousy thing... kobe doesn't seem so upset by it, he still had a great game. that article is just one opinion from an espn reporter who is trying to stir BS and get attention.

12-21-2005, 11:03 AM	#9
Mr. Mojo Risin Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: In the middle of nowhere Posts: 1,886	I heard Kobe decided not to play in the 4th.

12-21-2005, 11:04 AM	#10
dynastoned mmm yeah! Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: roseville, ca Posts: 5,061	if the game was in the bag and kobe didn't feel he needed to prove anything by setting a record, where is the problem? if you're saying kobe scoring 60 points isn't enough for the fans well then what is? thats not something you see every night or even every year so if i would have gone to that game i would have to say i got my moneys worth..

12-21-2005, 12:14 PM	#14
SmokeyTheBear ►SouthOfHeaven Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: PlanetEarth MyBoardRank: GerbilMaster My-Penis-Size: extralarge MyWeapon: Computer Posts: 28,609	I'm not a huge basketball fan , but it seems to me if you had an obvious "win" in the bag , you wouldnt put your best players out there to get HAMMERED by the other team who will be trying every trick in the book to win. Especially not one getting paid so much , too much risk.. __________________ hatisblack at yahoo.com

12-21-2005, 12:33 PM	#17
OG LennyT Wall Street Pimp Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 14,345	Whats up with all the 'pansy' ownership of pro teams these days? Rest the team for the playoffs coach... Rest the guy, hes done enough for tonight.. He looks a bit tired, go ahead, take him out for a few games... bullshit imho they never used to do this crap, in any sport __________________ Tradeking - my online broker \| 4.95 a trade \| make real $$

12-21-2005, 03:10 PM	#20
Translation Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 482	its a dumb game. cry about it.

12-21-2005, 06:32 PM	#22
PixeLs Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 11,922	I hate Phil more after that game! It won't be impossible for him to hit 80 or even 100 if he gave that last quarter to him... __________________ Make money on any traffic. Bi-weekly payments with no hold.

12-22-2005, 01:30 AM	#24
reed_4 Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 9,640	For sure Phil knows what he is doing. With 6 championship ring with the Chicago Bulls & 3 with the Lakers, I know he can handle the situation well. It's not about how would Kobe score a high points but how would the team win. __________________

12-22-2005, 01:51 AM	#25
bdld $100,000 Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 11,452	if phil let kobe stay in the game, im thinking the mavs would've gotten real physical with kobe, could have gotten ugly.