Signup for one of those WWE schools and learn to powerbomb and choke slam someone's ass. :1orglaugh

FYI - Carlson is in Toronto on May 7th. Same weekend as the Montreal show.

Spoken like someone who has never been in a fight.

Wing Chun sucks ass. Get over it.

Not making it up this year. :(

How many times do fights go to the ground?

Don't make me dig up Wing Chun's Grand Master William Cheung whatever getting his beat on the ground with Boeztpe. they looked like a bunch of kids legs flailing on the ground trying to fight.

Fuck it.

These two men were at the time, two of the best Wing Chun "fighters". Which is a stand up striking art.

Notice how these "Strikers" revert to the basest form of fighting. Grappling.

http://www.ebmas.net/video/emin-vs-cheung.mpeg

Also notice how fucking shitty they are at real fighting. LOL

All you can dig up is videos where fighters are being pulled down to the ground. Like you said, Wing Chun is not a ground sport. But what do I know. I've only trained Jiu-Jitsu (which IS a ground sport) for 9 years and my best friends are masters and instructors in Wing Chun.

I don't disagree with your arguments about BJJ...I've given similar ones to strike oriented fighters who said the same thing. I'm just saying grappling on the mat and grappling in the street will be different.

There's no such thing as a Nikkyo Nage. Maybe your instructor got the terms wrong. Nikyo is a wrist lock, and the term "nage" means throw. I can't conceive of a way to combine those two terms to get a shoulder lock. I have seen people demonstrating an ude osai (arm bar) using a nikyo lock while uke is face down, but I personally don't think that technique is all that effective, at least I wouldn't do it to someone much larger than me. I don't know the term "Omo Plato", so I can't comment on the similarities.

I've heard that same argument that O'Sensei softened things after WWII, but what really happened is his philosophy became more peaceful. The techniques were more graceful and did de-emphasize breaking, but it was far from "soft". Neither you nor I were there, so I don't think we can really comment with any authority, but my Sensei was an uchi deshi for O'Sensei and says he was anything but soft. He even knocked my Sensei out with a chop stick! (lol) And no...I'm not going to mention my Sensei's name on an adult board so that any association can be created. Sorry.

No art makes you unbeatable. Against street attackers who don't expect your response and are generally over committed, aikido is the most powerful art I've encountered and has proven to be quite effective in my own experience. I can't argue with the results. In NHB competitions where your opponent is less committed, expect you to know some stuff, and are generally more cautious, aikido is a little tougher to pull off without some serious atemi. But like I said, my arguments are geared for the street. Competition and the street are very different.

Yes, legs are stronger than arms, but what aikido style teaches to use arm strength only?!? Power comes from the hips...

Nikkyo Nage was the second throw taught at my first Aikido school. It's a term used in every Aikido school I've ever trained at.

Ikkyo
Nikkyo
Sankyo
Kote Gaeshi
Irimi Nage
Were the first 5 throws I learned. Nikkyo was a wrist lock that brought the uke to his kness then the movement was finished with Ikkyo. The pin was a sholder lock with both knees holding the shoulder in place while arms were used to torque the arm and dislocate the shoulder.

My Aikikai was affiliated with Berkley Aikikai, which as you know, is in the heartland of the hippy generation.

As for Aikido not being as good in NHB, what better enviroment than NHB/MMA to test out the effectiveness of a fighting system? That more than enough answers everything.

Btw, in mma/nhb, there is serious atemi. :)

I breath in their face and they drop dead

You described something called a "Nikkyo Nage Pin" which is a shoulder lock. There is no such thing as a Nikkyo Nage Pin. There is a Nikyo lock/pin, yes. There is a Nikyo that is used as a throw, so technically it could feasibly called a Nikyo Nage, I suppose. But there is no nage which is a pin, and there is no nikyo which is a shoulder lock. Your instructor must have misnamed an ude osae or rationalized that since you have a nikyo lock, it should be called such...

As for NHB, I was trying to illustrate, maybe very unclearly, that there is differences between the street and competition. Aikido, it seems, is easier to pull off on the street than even the dojo. In competition, the attacker is aware of your training and isn't fully committing. Forget doing a kote gaeshi on a boxer's jab; go for the body or head. The fight would appear more strike oriented until you got close enough to do a technique, in that regard, it's not pure, 1-atemi-1-throw aikido. That's what I meant by "without serious atemi".

Was the Berkley dojo ever affiliated with Riverside? Just curious; don't know my geography over there...

The street.

Probably, but I went to the Alameda Aikikai which was affilaited with Berkley and I think Chiba Sensei.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

OK...not what I was thinking then.

Sure, if you want to get killed.

If you can't win in a one on one fight sceanario, what makes anyone sure it will win in multiple attacker sceanario?

Modelperfect, you can get all philosophical and watch all the Bruce Lee movies you want, it's not gonna make faeries exist, dragons fly out of your ass or Aikido and Kung Fu worthwhile arts.

If it works it's used in UFC. If it doesn't it's not. It's that simple. ALL professional fighters are Jiu-Jitsu men. ALL OF THEM. Without it you're gonna get your ass whipped every single time you step in the ring. Once they have their BJJ right they work on their standup.

BJJ, MT, Boxing, a little wrestling and in very rare cases a Sambo guy. That's it, that's all you see, because that's all that works.

Damn Dig, goddamn BJJ nutrider! :)

Not all of them are BJJ guys, but all of them do study BJJ to supplement their original fighting style.

yea, no more flying solo...

Right. This mythical 'street' that's sooooooo much tougher and hardcore than the ring.

I grew up in government housing units. I've seen and been involved in dozens of fights, and every single one of them were two guys throwing hands and wrestling until someone quit.

Randy Coutoure and Vanderleigh Silva will whip someone's ass on 'the street' just the same way they do it in the ring. There is no difference unless someone pulls a knife or a gun, in which case you're fucked anyway unless you get lucky and take the knife away.

'The Street'... ooooooooo hahahahahahaha - the Kung Fu guy's excuse for not having any representatives in NHB EVER win a fight.

101 keyboard warriors.

Not all of them CLAIM BJJ as their primary art, but all of them go straight to full guard when they're on their back, all of them go for RNC if they get someone's back. That's another thing about UFC that kinda pisses me off, all these submission wrestlers.

If you throw submissions into wrestling, what do you have? BJJ! They're BJJ men no matter how much they hate the Gracies and don't want to admit it lol

I hate to tell you this Dig, but Judo had the guard before BJJ did, and Judo had the RNC before BJJ did. Considering that BJJ is an offshoot of Judo, kinda makes sense. BJJ took what Judo had and worked positional dominance, and took it to a whole different level. It's why as a Judo white belt I was tapping Judo browns and blacks after a year of BJJ.

Like I said, they are not all BJJ guys as their primary style, but they all train in BJJ.

yeah yeah, as soon as BJJ guys beat everybody using every style Judo guys start claiming every BJJ technique as their own. Every technique known to man has been part of some obscure art or other, and they can make all the claims they want, but you know and I know that Helio and Carlson put it all together.

Karate guys can't claim to be soccer masters because they had kicks first, and Judo guys can't legitimately claim BJJ master status.

Actually, BJJ comes from Judo. LOL

Maeda was part of the Kodokan. Kano's Judo Organization.

BJJ strength isn't the technique but the organization of usage. Position before submission being the prime example.

BJJ made ground fighting an art. The guard was used to defeat Kano's Kodakan in the early 1900's by Fusen Ryu Jiu Jitsu. They would pull their oppoenents between their legs and submit them.

Probably the best online breakdown of history I've seen on BJJ and it's origins is Simco's aka Aranha's page.

http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/history.shtml

Good read. Even an excerpt there about President Roosevelt that proves prophetic with current times, ie. Pride FC and UFC.

Darling Kermit:
"... I still box with Grant, who has now become the champion middleweight wrestler of the United States. Yesterday afternoon we had Professor Yamashita (Yamashita was Roosevelt's Jiu-jitsu instructor before Meada and Tomita had arrived there in the U.S.) up here to wrestle with Grant. It was very interesting, but of course jiu jitsu and our wrestling are so far apart that it is difficult to make any comparison between them. Wrestling is simply a sport with rules almost as conventional as those of tennis, while jiu jitsu is really meant for practice in killing or disabling our adversary. In consequence, Grant did not know what to do except to put Yamashita on his back, and Yamashita was perfectly content to be on his back. Inside of a minute Yamashita had choked Grant, and inside of two minutes more he got an elbow hold on him that would have enabled him to break his arm; so that there is no question but that he could have put Grant out. So far this made it evident that the jiu jitsu man could handle the ordinary wrestler. But Grant, in the actual wrestling and throwing was about as good as the Japanese, and he was so much stronger that he evidently hurt and wore out the Japanese. With a little practice in the art I am sure that one of our big wrestlers or boxers, simply because of his greatly superior strength, would be able to kill any of those Japanese, who though very good men for their inches and pounds are altogether too small to hold their own against big, powerful, quick men who are as well trained."

Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919)
(Theodore Roosevelt's Letters to His Children. 1919. NEW YORK: CHARLES SCRIBNER'S SONS, 1919 NEW YORK: BARTLEBY.COM, 1999)

Thankfully, your not likely to run into many MMA fighters on the street
:winkwink:

But against just about anyone else, a Wing Chun fighter is going to mess them up pretty bad.

what you WILL run into are big aggressive guys who want to knock you down and kick you until they get bored. You NEED to know what to do on the ground.

Kevsh,

All those MMA guys did was run up to them and dragged them down.

Anyone can do that.

I'm not disputing that - my original post I stated that muay thai and kickboxing are effective on the street in part because you are trained to knock people out, for real. I added a bit about wing chun because a friend of mine is a master.

In terms of self-defence, which this thread was originally about, there are absolutely better techniques than muay thai, kickboxing and wing chun. But I also believe that in a street fight a good offence is often the best defence and any of these 3 styles are effective in making sure it's over *before* it gets to the ground.

Realistically, most of us will go through our lives hitting hundreds of night clubs, parties and a few bad neighborhoods and dark alleys along the way. Unless you go looking for trouble constantly, the odds are in your favour that even a moderate mastery of any serious technique in this thread will save your ass every time. Again, you are realistically not likely to bump into many MMA masters on the street, nor any other specialized art.

... but, unlike some other people in this thread, I'm not bashing any form which is silly. Wing chun does not "suck" - in an MMA tournment, yes, he will likely be owned - but the key part of MMA is "mixed": A combination of masteries vs. one discipline, in most cases, will be a rout. So, as Anthony pointed out in those videos, a MMA master will obviously have a big advantage over a straight Wing Chun fighter, or muay thai, etc. In all the early UFC fights the "wrestlers" always owned the brawlers. Now all the competitors have to be multi-disciplined to survive ...

it's called 'false security' and it's what Rorion Gracie started the UFC to combat. Your average fast athletic guy will fight even up with TKD guys, KF guys, Aikido guys. That's the whole point. These will not help you in a real fight against your local linebacker from the community college. If you use KF against him he will fuck you up.

What you get from these arts is a false sense of security that you can protect yourself from a strong aggressive man. It's a very very dangerous thing to have.

first rule of fight club is dont talk about fight club

I've fought NHB, bro, and am far from a faerie worshiper. I've used aikido in the street and while bouncing. It works for me. I'm also a grappler, so I'm not trying to diss BJJ. Don't let the loopy shit make you think it's all bad...

None of the wing chun clips posted are representative of real wing chun... the first two practitioners are terrible and the cheung vs boztepe match is a grudge match between two bitter enemies, and cheung's style is most definitely not considered street effective by other lineages...

the problem with the first two clips is that they are immobile and just stand there and let themselves be taken down. striking works - look at the sakabura vs. royce gracie fight, sakabura kicked his ass because he had striking skills and didn't allow gracie to take him to the ground... now sakabura is a kick boxer as well as grappler, but the principle is the same - a good wing chun striker won't be taken to the ground easily, and will then strike to the eyes or whatever it takes to get back up.

gary lam is a good wing chun guy - check out this, which is more representative of what wing chun should look like: http://www.garylamwingchun.com/GaryLam.wmv and the vids on this page: http://www.garylamwingchun.com/movies.html - it should be noted that he is also a champion kick boxer and kick boxing trainer, and was trained by the same guy that did most of bruce lee's training (wong shun leung).

the bottom line is that in a real street fight, which is what this thread is about, rather than an artificial ring situation (no eye/ groin/ throat strikes), against multiple opponents, you simply cannot go to the ground... b/c as soon as you do the guy's buddies will just kick the shit out of you, you are fucked. you have to stay on your feet and strike your way out and escape.

The best MA for self def:

WING TSUN no questions about it! :winkwink:

Yeah Wing Tsun the best art for Self Defense!

I bet you guys really think a Nun created your fighting style too.

You really think your chain punching will stop someone intent on hurting you?

There is only one Wing Chun guy I have ever respected, and that was because he also trained in grappling of sorts. Some of you might remember him, Scott PB.

That Wing Chun Sifu I would not fuck with.

Funny how the excuses come out though, two bad ass WC guys fight, and where does it go? The ground.

Funny stuff, there were people for both sides there, where was the kicking the heads, stomping the face you guys WC guys all talk about? All I saw were two supposed WC fighters rolling around on the ground like two 10 year olds.

Hey, even better, Boeztpe no longer is affiliated with Wing Chun.

Why is that? Oh yeah, he's started a MMA team. Guess go with what works, eh?

interesting that you base your whole perspective on WC on one blurry clip... and that's obviously not a street fight is it.

boztepe left b/c he was fed up with WC politics, not b/c he didn't think it's a good fighting style

so what do you do when you grapple your opponent and his 5 friends start kicking you in the back of the head? what do you do when your opponent is a hard fast striker and a standing grappler, and you can't execute the takedown? what do you do against multiple opponents? armed with weapons?

i'm not slagging bjj (grappling is effective and has a time and a place), but i think you're being too narrow minded and arguing for the sake of arguing...

Didn't read all the posts, just act 'crazy' and make sure you can run a mile in 7.5 minutes. No reason to break bones over a jealous boyfriend and drop the girl since she has issues unresolve :Oh crap

Hi

I would say Krav Maga for self defence. Also Muey Thai (thai boxing), Jeet kune do and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

thanks
tony

So you are saying boztepe isn't running a MMA team now? Please. :)

Your style can't beat one guy who runs at you and drags you down. What makes you think you can handle 5? Again, please.

You can't slag BJJ because it works. WC on the other hand, only has Bruce Lee movies to show how effective it is. Once it was put up against other fighting styles, it was proven ineffective in one on one combat. Then, none at all, with excuses that it's made for the street, that it's too deadly for the ring/cage.

I am not saying that all WC schools are bad, just like I agree with MP that not all Aikido schools are mcdojos. But, they are the exception to the rule.

How in God's name can you say WC works in a real street fight situation when the closest to alive training an average WC school does is light contact?